Just this Sunday, lar3ryca explained that ...
> On 2022-05-15 19:56, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 16/05/22 05:02, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022, at 08:55:00, Ken Blake posted:
>>
>>>> You are correct. In AmE a "subway" is what BrE calls "tube" or
>>>> "underground."
>>>
>>> That is why my wife and I didn't get lunch in Anaheim, a suburb of
>>> Los Angeles, after a business meeting. We were told we could get it
>>> at a subway, which was [in a given direction]. We couldn't find the
>>> subway. In the end, we gave up, and found a fast sandwich place
>>> instead.
>>
>> Unfamiliar terminology can be a real trap for travellers.
>>
>> I was once having lunch somewhere in Califormia, and realised that I had
>> forgotten how to get back to the SF Bay area, so I asked how to get
>> there. Somebody said "Take the 5" (or it might have been a different
>> number), and I didn't have a clue what they meant. Luckily I got a
>> better answer when I rephrased my question as "Where can I find a
>> freeway entrance?"
>
> 'The 5' is correct.

For a common routing, but it's an incomplete answer for anywhere in the
Bay Area, as I-5 avoids that blob, and turns away towards Sacramento.

You can probably figure out a way to complete the answer once you start
seeing signs for diverting routes, but it helps to know where the
various names are located in the Bay Area, as some of the connections
better serve one end of the water than the other.

> When I worked for Comma Services, we once were expecting a guy from Los
> Angeles, who was going to be driving up.

Up where?

> He had our address, but was
> wondering how he could find out office.
>
> I told him to get onto I5 and when he got to the cross-street one block from
> the T-junction, to make a left turn, and drive one block.

Where is the T-junction on I-5?

> Got a chance in 2002 or so, to give similar directions to a fellow from
> Vancouver who wanted to drop by my farm in Saskatchewan.

You have an I5 or an I-5 in Saskatchewan?

/dps

--
Trust, but verify.

On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 4:17:18 PM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > On Tue, 17 May 2022 08:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > are willing to laugh at themselves, and, having read Shute's works,
> > > > perhaps some of his fondness for the place has rubbed off.
> > > Of course. Australia has never felt an urge to throw off the yoke of
> > > British imperialism.
> >
> > At least they haven't (so far) started out on their own imperialism.
>

This is the big gap where you fail to address Americam imperialism.

> Someone seems not to have kept up with South Pacific current events.

Fair enough. We seem to focus on the Ukraine & Boris, though Strange Going Ons in the US intrude, I think mostly because Brit reporters would like a job in the US.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Tue, 17 May 2022 23:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
"bil...@shaw.ca" <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:

> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:57:03 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 16/05/22 05:02, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > > On Sun, 15 May 2022, at 08:55:00, Ken Blake posted:
> > >> You are correct. In AmE a "subway" is what BrE calls "tube" or
> > >> "underground."
> > >
> > > That is why my wife and I didn't get lunch in Anaheim, a suburb of
> > > Los Angeles, after a business meeting. We were told we could get it
> > > at a subway, which was [in a given direction]. We couldn't find the
> > > subway. In the end, we gave up, and found a fast sandwich place
> > > instead.
> > Unfamiliar terminology can be a real trap for travellers.
> >
> > I was once having lunch somewhere in Califormia, and realised that I had
> > forgotten how to get back to the SF Bay area, so I asked how to get
> > there. Somebody said "Take the 5" (or it might have been a different
> > number), and I didn't have a clue what they meant. Luckily I got a
> > better answer when I rephrased my question as "Where can I find a
> > freeway entrance?"
>
> The first time I drove in the U.S. was in the late 1970s, during Menachem Begin's
> presidency of Israel. The first couple of times I drove on the I-5 and other
> freeways, I kept noticing signs that said "Begin Freeway", and I wondered why
> the guy was that popular in the Pacific Northwest. I eventually worked it out.
>
In Germany 'Ausfahrt' seems a very popular village, it's signposted from all major roads.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 2022-05-18 01:34:31 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 18/05/22 04:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:04:15 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:23:28 AM UTC-4, Athel
>>>> Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
>>>>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>
>>>>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a
>>>>>>> photo of my friends Vera, Chook,
>>>>>> It's Chuck.
>>>>> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was
>>>>> written?
>>>> You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original
>>>> that PM was comparing his list of friend's names to?
>>>
>>> Since that "original" wasn't quoted, it was easy to get confused
>>> what PM was talking about. I've heard the song long ago (although
>>> not quite 64 years), but didn't remember such details.
>
> My post quoted Ruud mentioning the song "When I'm sixty-four". Ruud's
> post was the immediately preceding one in the thread, so hard to miss.
>
> Is the confusion because some people don't read the posts in thread order?
>
>> I had no idea what he was referencing, but I had no trouble
>> understanding that Ruud did know what he was referencing and gave the
>> form found in that source. That seems to have been too difficult for
>> AC-B.
>
> Athel seems to have been the only one to understand that the proposed
> photograph would feature my friends, not the people in the song.

That seems to have been too difficult for PTD.
>
> If I gave anyone the impression that I had planned to go to Liverpool
> and photograph people there, I apologise for giving that impression.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On 2022-05-18 01:46:15 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 18/05/22 03:55, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>>>> It might have been Chuck in Liverpool, but the person I know is called
>>>> Chook. He got his nickname from his surname, Fowler.
>>
>> Tue, 17 May 2022 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>> Ruud probably doesn't know the Australian word "chook."
>>
>> Indeed I don't. Should I look it up? I should:
>> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/chook
>> ==
>> noun
>> 2. Also called: chookie Australian informal
>> a hen or chicken
>> 3. Australian informal
>> a woman, esp a more mature one
>> ==
>
> Wow. That number 3 probably dropped out of use before my father was
> born. But we did occasionally refer to women as "birds" in the 1960s.

More than occasionally, in my experience in England in the 1960s. If
someone said he had been to a party the previous evening, the standard
question to ask was "Any good birds?"

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On 2022-05-18 05:24:14 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:

> Tue, 17 May 2022 20:53:47 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>
>> On 2022-05-17 17:38:14 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>
>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 08:23:22 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>
>>>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
>>>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ … ]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>>>>>> friends Vera, Chook,
>>>>>
>>>>> It's Chuck.
>>>>
>>>> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?
>>>
>>> I'm talking about the song, and accents of British English.
>>
>> Peter was talking about his friends. If you were talking about
>> something else, why not say so?
>
> I said so, I mentioned the Beatles song repeatedly,

Only after you had made the silly comment about Peter's friends.
However, you can comfort yourself with the thought that the world's
greatest expert on writing systems considered that it was OK to express
your ideas in the wrong order.

> and analysed the
> pronunciation in the song. This group is about English, or am I wrong?
>
> https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-lm&q=chook+fowler
> New South Wales.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On 18/05/2022 9:33 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
> "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

<snip>

>> Someone seems not to have kept up with South Pacific current events.
>
> Fair enough. We seem to focus on the Ukraine & Boris, though Strange Going Ons in the US intrude, I think mostly because Brit reporters would like a job in the US.

But why? By all accounts the US is full of racists.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2022-05-18 01:46:15 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
> > On 18/05/22 03:55, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >
> >>>> It might have been Chuck in Liverpool, but the person I know is called
> >>>> Chook. He got his nickname from his surname, Fowler.
> >>
> >> Tue, 17 May 2022 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >>> Ruud probably doesn't know the Australian word "chook."
> >>
> >> Indeed I don't. Should I look it up? I should:
> >> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/chook
> >> ==
> >> noun
> >> 2. Also called: chookie Australian informal
> >> a hen or chicken
> >> 3. Australian informal
> >> a woman, esp a more mature one
> >> ==
> >
> > Wow. That number 3 probably dropped out of use before my father was
> > born. But we did occasionally refer to women as "birds" in the 1960s.
>
> More than occasionally, in my experience in England in the 1960s. If
> someone said he had been to a party the previous evening, the standard
> question to ask was "Any good birds?"

Long ago I saw an American visitor to Europe with a phrase book:
'How to chat up a bird in ten languages'.
I never learned if he had had any successes with using it.

But he may have picked up the book while passing through Britain,

Jan

On 2022-05-17, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> On 17-May-22 11:42, Adam Funk wrote:
>> "Oxter" is used in Yorkshire & Derbyshire (at least) as well.
>
>
> I lived in Derbyshire (near the border with Yorkshire) for my first
> couple of decades, and never came across it.

I've only heard it occasionally --- the subject doesn't come up in a
lot of conversations.

--
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for nature cannot be fooled. –--Richard P. Feynman

On 18/05/22 18:40, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 23:09:01 -0700 (PDT) "bil...@shaw.ca"
> <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:

>> The first time I drove in the U.S. was in the late 1970s, during
>> Menachem Begin's presidency of Israel. The first couple of times I
>> drove on the I-5 and other freeways, I kept noticing signs that
>> said "Begin Freeway", and I wondered why the guy was that popular
>> in the Pacific Northwest. I eventually worked it out.
>>
> In Germany 'Ausfahrt' seems a very popular village, it's signposted
> from all major roads.

In my earliest experiences of Belgium I was amazed to see how many roads
went from Uitrit to Sortie.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On 5/17/2022 8:33 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> lar3ryca wrote:
>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>> lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> scribeva:

>>>>>>>> Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of
>>>>>>>> 'costly' and 'expensive',

>>>>>> In article <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> rh@rudhar.com says...
>>>>>>> But an unusual one, then.

>>>>> Mon, 16 May 2022 11:42:05 +0100: Janet <nobody@home.com>
>>>>> scribeva:
>>>>>> Not at all; it's in common everyday Br E usage.

>>>>> I now suddenly remember "if it's not too dear". The Beatles.
>>>>> Maxwell's Silver Hammer? No. When I'm sixty-four? Yes:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCTunqv1Xt4&t=1m33s

>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo
>>>> of my friends Vera, Chook,

>>> It's Chuck. That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
>>> Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the
>>> way, I noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul
>>> McCartney) employs a strange different accent (attempted
>>> Scottish, maybe?) just before that.

>> Where, precisely, do you hear that? I Listened to the version at
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTgbWmaxu5s but could not detect
>> anything like that all the way from "Every summer we can rent..."

>> I imagine it's because I am not familiar enough with the various UK
>> accents.

> There is a hint of it in the line:

> "grandchildren on y're knee"

> That "y're" sounds like an imitation of a Scots accent.

> I don't know where "Chuck" came from. It isn't a diminutive form of
> Charles that I've ever heard in BrE.

Names of the working class.

"Chuck" is not a diminutive but a nickname, an old endearment related to
"chick". In the Howard Pyle version of the Robin Hood stories they
addressed each other as "sweet chuck" quite a lot, meaning only to
provide a little local colour; but it made me feel funny, since I was
usually called "Chuck" when I was young.

--
I always wanted to be Charlie, but nooo.

On 18/05/22 19:03, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-05-18 01:46:15 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>> On 18/05/22 03:55, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>>>>> It might have been Chuck in Liverpool, but the person I know
>>>>> is called Chook. He got his nickname from his surname,
>>>>> Fowler.
>>>
>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>>> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>>> Ruud probably doesn't know the Australian word "chook."
>>>
>>> Indeed I don't. Should I look it up? I should:
>>> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/chook ==
>>> noun 2. Also called: chookie Australian informal a hen or
>>> chicken 3. Australian informal a woman, esp a more mature one
>>> ==
>>
>> Wow. That number 3 probably dropped out of use before my father
>> was born. But we did occasionally refer to women as "birds" in the
>> 1960s.
>
> More than occasionally, in my experience in England in the 1960s. If
> someone said he had been to a party the previous evening, the
> standard question to ask was "Any good birds?"

Slightly less standard in Australia. We did use the word, but retained a
consciousness that it was really a word from England.

When I first heard the song words

Just for kicks
I ride out through the night
My bird hangs on in fright

I got a mental picture of someone frantically pedalling along the M1
with a scared cockatoo gripping his shoulder.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

* Peter Moylan:

> On 18/05/22 19:03, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2022-05-18 01:46:15 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>
>>> On 18/05/22 03:55, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> It might have been Chuck in Liverpool, but the person I know
>>>>>> is called Chook. He got his nickname from his surname,
>>>>>> Fowler.
>>>>
>>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>>>> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>>>> Ruud probably doesn't know the Australian word "chook."
>>>>
>>>> Indeed I don't. Should I look it up? I should:
>>>> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/chook ==
>>>> noun 2. Also called: chookie Australian informal a hen or
>>>> chicken 3. Australian informal a woman, esp a more mature one
>>>> ==
>>>
>>> Wow. That number 3 probably dropped out of use before my father
>>> was born. But we did occasionally refer to women as "birds" in the
>>> 1960s.
>>
>> More than occasionally, in my experience in England in the 1960s. If
>> someone said he had been to a party the previous evening, the
>> standard question to ask was "Any good birds?"
>
> Slightly less standard in Australia. We did use the word, but retained a
> consciousness that it was really a word from England.
>
> When I first heard the song words
>
> Just for kicks
> I ride out through the night
> My bird hangs on in fright
>
> I got a mental picture of someone frantically pedalling along the M1
> with a scared cockatoo gripping his shoulder.

Maybe the recording you listened to was pirated.

--
It's a strange sensation, dying. No matter how many times it happens
to you, you never get used to it.
-- Ezri Dax, ST DS9, S07E03

* Kerr-Mudd, John:

> On Tue, 17 May 2022 23:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
> "bil...@shaw.ca" <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> The first time I drove in the U.S. was in the late 1970s, during
>> Menachem Begin's presidency of Israel. The first couple of times I
>> drove on the I-5 and other freeways, I kept noticing signs that said
>> "Begin Freeway", and I wondered why the guy was that popular in the
>> Pacific Northwest. I eventually worked it out.
>>
> In Germany 'Ausfahrt' seems a very popular village, it's signposted
> from all major roads.

There's more than one. It's German's Springfield.

--
Genocide is not like gifts - the thought doesn't count.
-- 22 minutes,
on Erin O'Toole's statement that residential
schools were "meant to try and provide education."

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 9:15:52 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 18/05/22 07:05, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 4:17:18 PM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 08:47:42 -0700 (PDT) "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >>>> are willing to laugh at themselves, and, having read Shute's
> >>>> works, perhaps some of his fondness for the place has rubbed
> >>>> off.
> >>> Of course. Australia has never felt an urge to throw off the
> >>> yoke of British imperialism.
> >> At least they haven't (so far) started out on their own
> >> imperialism.
> > Someone seems not to have kept up with South Pacific current events.
>
> It's true that some Pacific islanders see Australians as arrogant
> imperialists, but Australia's big mistake in the Solomon Islands affair
> was to cut foreign aid.
>
> An even bigger factor was that parts of the Solomons were getting
> significant money from Taiwan. When the Solomon Islands government
> decided to recognise China and snub Taiwan, that caused riots.
> Australian police helped to put down the riots, but that was viewed by
> some as meaning that Australia was supporting only the pro-Chinese
> faction. It's a bit of a tangled web.

I was thinking specifically of what they did to Nauru.

It's more NZ that hangs on to island groups (and gets money by
printing worthless stamps for each of them). In that category,
Aus seems only to have Cocos (Keeling) Islands and Christmas
Island. The Torres Strait Islands seem to always have been considered
part of the country but not exactly part of Queensland -- ethnographically
it's always "[whatever the current term for Native Australians is] and
Torres Strait Islanders," as Alaska Natives aren't included in [whatever
the current term for Native Americans is].

Wed, 18 May 2022 11:06:01 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>> Peter was talking about his friends. If you were talking about
>>> something else, why not say so?
>>
>> I said so, I mentioned the Beatles song repeatedly,
>
>Only after you had made the silly comment about Peter's friends.

I have never ever made any comment about Peter Moylan's friends. How
could I? I don't know them, I don't even know him.

It was a misunderstanding of the stoning mobs here, as I have
explained several times already.

>However, you can comfort yourself with the thought that the world's
>greatest expert on writing systems considered that it was OK to express
>your ideas in the wrong order.

He didn't, and I didn't. I was always referring to the Beatles song
only, so there is no ordering. I suspected Peter Moylan had
misinterpreted the song, that's all. Nothing to get so needlessly
upset about.

>> and analysed the
>> pronunciation in the song. This group is about English, or am I wrong?
>>
>> https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-lm&q=chook+fowler
>> New South Wales.

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 9:34:38 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 18/05/22 04:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:04:15 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Peter T. Daniels:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:23:28 AM UTC-4, Athel
> >>> Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>>> On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
> >>>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
> >>>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
> >
> >>>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a
> >>>>>> photo of my friends Vera, Chook,
> >>>>> It's Chuck.
> >>>> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was
> >>>> written?
> >>> You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original
> >>> that PM was comparing his list of friend's names to?
> >>
> >> Since that "original" wasn't quoted, it was easy to get confused
> >> what PM was talking about. I've heard the song long ago (although
> >> not quite 64 years), but didn't remember such details.
> My post quoted Ruud mentioning the song "When I'm sixty-four". Ruud's
> post was the immediately preceding one in the thread, so hard to miss.
>
> Is the confusion because some people don't read the posts in thread order?
> > I had no idea what he was referencing, but I had no trouble
> > understanding that Ruud did know what he was referencing and gave the
> > form found in that source. That seems to have been too difficult for
> > AC-B.
> Athel seems to have been the only one to understand that the proposed
> photograph would feature my friends, not the people in the song.

Um ... since I had no idea that there were people in a song with
the same set of names ... (I was trying to find a phrase the names
could turn into, shaggy-dog/Frank Muir style).

> If I gave anyone the impression that I had planned to go to Liverpool
> and photograph people there, I apologise for giving that impression.

Shirley, there's a Liverpool somewhere in Australia?

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 2:09:49 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 17/05/2022 à 16:47, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:45:41 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> >>
> >> I feel there are some large differences between the US and Britain.
> >> Familiarity obscures this, plus the fact that we can more or less
> >> understand each other without translators. Partly it is because America
> >> is a young nation. The Wild West ended just over 100 years ago
> >> (Wikipedia), and has I suppose left its legacy in the continued right to
> >> bear arms, which seems very strange to us.
> >
> > OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.
>
> If you say so. The point is the mentality still seems to exist, and I'm
> talking here about differences in mentality and how they are expressed
> in language.
>
> > The "Wild West" never existed, but was created as a fantasy in
> > the post-Civil War years -- the heyday being, say, the 1880s (when
> > "Buffalo Bill" toured throughout Europe for years, giving rise to
> > such fantasy-writers as Carl May).
>
> So all those Westerns, of which several are still shown every day here
> on terrestrial TV - all those shoot-outs and waggon trains and heroic
> frontiersmen and miffed Injuns firing arrows at them... - all that is
> untrue?
>
> America has told itself and sold itself a big lie?
>
> Is that psychologically healthy?

The "Wild West" was invented by the novelist Owen Wister (*The
Virginian*) and the (mostly short-story) writer Zane Grey. It filled
the niche later filled by SF -- escapist fantasy set in an imaginary
world.

Sure, Billy the Kid and Wyatt Earp were real people, but if you
look at what historians have been able to discover about them,
their existence was pretty sordid.

The conflict between farmers and ranchers did exist.

Not to mention, some say that maybe 25% of cowboys were
black, and they were completely omitted by the storytellers
and the moviemakers.

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 2:11:06 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 17/05/2022 à 16:40, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:10:28 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:

> I apologise in advance. Lacking time, I am going to reply selectively.
>
> >> All British people who do not hide themselves away in caves and cellars
> >> are continuously exposed to American speech. Most of the films and
> >> series on TV are American. British films, past and present, normally
> >> include at least one American because otherwise they would not sell in
> >> America. American experts are routinely interviewed on the radio (the
> >> BBC sounds more and more like Voice of America). American reporters
> >> appear in the news, American comedians in quiz shows, and so on and so
> >> on. There are Americans living in Britain (~166,000 in 2021 (Statista) -
> >> one of them in my immediate circle). We are saturated in American speech.
> >
> > [...] No matter how many Americans you are exposed to, you do not
> > learn to talk like them, except with a handful of distinctive vocabulary
> > items (sometimes misused) and exaggerated r's.
>
> Well, it isn't a question of learning to talk like an American, but of
> observing how Americans talk. Listener are going to be sensitive to
> where that differs from their own dialect.

It certainly is when it's an actor trying to be believed as an American
character.

> >> The perfect is used when the effects of a past event are still relevant
> >> now. People do say "I've already eaten", but in this context the
> > In _what_ context? Not the slightest hint of a context was offered,
> > other than "in books at least."
>
> I'm sorry. I thought the context was obvious from the formulations - the
> refusal of food because one is still digesting a previous meal.

"Context" refers to the discourse, not to the life-situation.

> >> 'already' is superfluous. "I ate", on the other hand, is not anchored in
> >> time and requires something extra to tie it to now.
> > As I said, when the "perfect" is used depends on context, and singling
> > out those two perfectly common expressions as some sort of difference
> > is asinine.
>
> Asinine?

Since the underlying premise is nonsensical.

> >>> Do you withdraw your claim about "fine" (what do you imagine makes
> >>> that an "adverb"?) vs. "good"? [...]
> >> No. I think it's an example of linguistic inflation. Britons aren't
> >> immune to it, but I think Americans indulge in it more.
> > I have no idea what this particular bit of bigotry is supposed to mean.
>
> If you don't understand it, how do you know it's bigotry?

Contrasting "Britons" with "Americans" regarding something you
understand nothing about.

You might have cited C. S. Lewis's example "storm in a teacup" vs.
"tempest in a teapot." I wish I could find where he mentioned that
-- he had a couple of other examples as well.

> > But evidently you have no idea of the meaning of "adverb" (which
> > as it's used in English school grammar is meaningless anyway).
>
> You do shoot off at high speed in random directions, don't you?

You don't pay much attention to what is said here, do you?

> But it's true that I haven't answered the question about why 'fine' is
> an adverb in this context.
>
> The exchange "How are you?" "Fine" is abbreviated, and in full would be
> "How are you doing?" "I am doing fine." 'Fine' qualifies 'am doing' and
> is therefore an adverb.
>
> When an American replies "Good", that is a non sequitur. "I am doing
> good" means that one is working to improve the world, and does not
> answer the question "How are you doing?"

What nonsense. There is no "doing" elided from the phatic greeting.

"How's the coffee?" "Fine/Good." What verb do you imagine is
elided there?

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 3:18:27 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 18/05/2022 à 07:11, Hibou a écrit :
> > But it's true that I haven't answered the question about why 'fine' is
> > an adverb in this context.
> > The exchange "How are you?" "Fine" is abbreviated, and in full would be
> > "How are you doing?" "I am doing fine." 'Fine' qualifies 'am doing' and
> > is therefore an adverb.
> > When an American replies "Good", that is a non sequitur. "I am doing
> > good" means that one is working to improve the world, and does not
> > answer the question "How are you doing?"
>
> So I did make a mistake, but not about 'fine'. 'Good' here is a noun,
> not an adjective.

Good grief.

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 4:38:23 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 4:17:18 PM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > On Tue, 17 May 2022 08:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
> > > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> > > > > are willing to laugh at themselves, and, having read Shute's works,
> > > > > perhaps some of his fondness for the place has rubbed off.
> > > > Of course. Australia has never felt an urge to throw off the yoke of
> > > > British imperialism.
> > > At least they haven't (so far) started out on their own imperialism.
>
> This is the big gap where you fail to address Americam imperialism.

What do you imagine anyone should have said?
> --
> Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 5:00:44 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-05-18 01:34:31 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
> > On 18/05/22 04:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:04:15 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >>> * Peter T. Daniels:
> >>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:23:28 AM UTC-4, Athel
> >>>> Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>>>> On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
> >>>>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
> >>>>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
> >>>>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a
> >>>>>>> photo of my friends Vera, Chook,
> >>>>>> It's Chuck.
> >>>>> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was
> >>>>> written?
> >>>> You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original
> >>>> that PM was comparing his list of friend's names to?
> >>> Since that "original" wasn't quoted, it was easy to get confused
> >>> what PM was talking about. I've heard the song long ago (although
> >>> not quite 64 years), but didn't remember such details.
> > My post quoted Ruud mentioning the song "When I'm sixty-four". Ruud's
> > post was the immediately preceding one in the thread, so hard to miss.
> > Is the confusion because some people don't read the posts in thread order?
> >> I had no idea what he was referencing, but I had no trouble
> >> understanding that Ruud did know what he was referencing and gave the
> >> form found in that source. That seems to have been too difficult for
> >> AC-B.
> > Athel seems to have been the only one to understand that the proposed
> > photograph would feature my friends, not the people in the song.
>
> That seems to have been too difficult for PTD.

JUST KEEP YOUR DAMN LIES TO YOURSELF.

You still don't grasp that I was, and am, not familiar with the lyrics
of the song?
> --
> Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

And thereafter wandered the world, ultimately finding sanctuary
in Marseilles.

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:25:14 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 18 May 2022 11:06:01 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:

> >>> Peter was talking about his friends. If you were talking about
> >>> something else, why not say so?
> >> I said so, I mentioned the Beatles song repeatedly,
> >Only after you had made the silly comment about Peter's friends.
> I have never ever made any comment about Peter Moylan's friends. How
> could I? I don't know them, I don't even know him.
>
> It was a misunderstanding of the stoning mobs here, as I have
> explained several times already.
>
> >However, you can comfort yourself with the thought that the world's
> >greatest expert on writing systems considered that it was OK to express
> >your ideas in the wrong order.
>
> He didn't, and I didn't. I was always referring to the Beatles song
> only, so there is no ordering. I suspected Peter Moylan had
> misinterpreted the song, that's all. Nothing to get so needlessly
> upset about.

That's simply what Athel does. Best to ignore him until he drops
a gratuitous insult into an unrelated thread.

Or, as repeatedly in this thread, an uncomprehending insult.

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:09:04 AM UTC-6, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:57:03 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 16/05/22 05:02, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > > On Sun, 15 May 2022, at 08:55:00, Ken Blake posted:
> > >> You are correct. In AmE a "subway" is what BrE calls "tube" or
> > >> "underground."
> > >
> > > That is why my wife and I didn't get lunch in Anaheim, a suburb of
> > > Los Angeles, after a business meeting. We were told we could get it
> > > at a subway, which was [in a given direction]. We couldn't find the
> > > subway. In the end, we gave up, and found a fast sandwich place
> > > instead.

:-)

> > Unfamiliar terminology can be a real trap for travellers.
> >
> > I was once having lunch somewhere in Califormia, and realised that I had
> > forgotten how to get back to the SF Bay area, so I asked how to get
> > there. Somebody said "Take the 5" (or it might have been a different
> > number), and I didn't have a clue what they meant. Luckily I got a
> > better answer when I rephrased my question as "Where can I find a
> > freeway entrance?"
>
> The first time I drove in the U.S. was in the late 1970s, during Menachem Begin's
> presidency of Israel. The first couple of times I drove on the I-5 and other
> freeways, I kept noticing signs that said "Begin Freeway", and I wondered why
> the guy was that popular in the Pacific Northwest. I eventually worked it out.

Begin was the prime minister. The presidency of Israel is a ceremonial job, and
people outside the country don't hear about the president much. It's still a good
story.

Obaue: Is there a word that is to "prime minister" as "presidency" is to "president"?
"Premiership"?

--
Jerry Friedman

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 5:40:21 AM UTC-6, CDB wrote:
> On 5/17/2022 8:33 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> > lar3ryca wrote:
> >> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
> >>>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >>>>>>> lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> scribeva:
>
> >>>>>>>> Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of
> >>>>>>>> 'costly' and 'expensive',
>
> >>>>>> In article <amf28hlb5kti5m62u...@4ax.com>,
> >>>>>> r...@rudhar.com says...
> >>>>>>> But an unusual one, then.
>
> >>>>> Mon, 16 May 2022 11:42:05 +0100: Janet <nob...@home.com>
> >>>>> scribeva:
> >>>>>> Not at all; it's in common everyday Br E usage.
>
> >>>>> I now suddenly remember "if it's not too dear". The Beatles.
> >>>>> Maxwell's Silver Hammer? No. When I'm sixty-four? Yes:
> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCTunqv1Xt4&t=1m33s
>
> >>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo
> >>>> of my friends Vera, Chook,
>
> >>> It's Chuck. That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
> >>> Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the
> >>> way, I noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul
> >>> McCartney) employs a strange different accent (attempted
> >>> Scottish, maybe?) just before that.
>
> >> Where, precisely, do you hear that? I Listened to the version at
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTgbWmaxu5s but could not detect
> >> anything like that all the way from "Every summer we can rent..."
>
> >> I imagine it's because I am not familiar enough with the various UK
> >> accents.
>
> > There is a hint of it in the line:
>
> > "grandchildren on y're knee"
>
> > That "y're" sounds like an imitation of a Scots accent.
>
> > I don't know where "Chuck" came from. It isn't a diminutive form of
> > Charles that I've ever heard in BrE.

> Names of the working class.
>
> "Chuck" is not a diminutive but a nickname, an old endearment related to
> "chick".

I know a Charles who goes by "Chick". I've also seen "Chig" in a short
story.

> In the Howard Pyle version of the Robin Hood stories they
> addressed each other as "sweet chuck" quite a lot, meaning only to
> provide a little local colour;

Othello often addresses Desdemona as "chuck".

> but it made me feel funny, since I was
> usually called "Chuck" when I was young.
>
> --
> I always wanted to be Charlie, but nooo.

We can call you Charlie if you want.

--
Jerry Friedman