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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

SubjectAuthor
* An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
| +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencespains...@gmail.com
| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|    |   |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |     `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|     `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|      +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|      |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|      | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAdam Funk
|      | | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|      |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      |  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|      |  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat
|       | ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceLewis
|       | | ||  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | | |||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceGordonD
|       | | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJoy Beeson
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|       | | ||   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRichard Heathfield
|       | | ||   | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJanet
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMack A. Damia
|       | | |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|       | |   | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |  |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAnders D. Nygaard
|       | |   |  | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |  |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|       | |   |  |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |   |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |   |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   |    ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | |   |    || +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |    || `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMadhu
|       | |   |    |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |   |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|       | |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |    |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||| `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSilvano
|       | |    ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStoat
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | |    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat

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Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t62vsv$5ue$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131548&group=alt.usage.english#131548

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 10:29:46 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: CDB - Wed, 18 May 2022 14:29 UTC

On 5/18/2022 9:41 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Hibou wrote:
>> Hibou a écrit :

>>> But it's true that I haven't answered the question about why
>>> 'fine' is an adverb in this context. The exchange "How are you?"
>>> "Fine" is abbreviated, and in full would be "How are you doing?"
>>> "I am doing fine." 'Fine' qualifies 'am doing' and is therefore
>>> an adverb. When an American replies "Good", that is a non
>>> sequitur. "I am doing good" means that one is working to improve
>>> the world, and does not answer the question "How are you doing?"

>> So I did make a mistake, but not about 'fine'. 'Good' here is a
>> noun, not an adjective.

> Good grief.

owls are so obsessed with categories, you'd think they were mice.

I believe what Peter meant by "good grief" is that "good" is an
adjective in that phrase and also in an American response to "howya
doin'?": in that case, it's an adjective in adverbial use.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<1s2a8hhne343bqml999rtvres3d7fdg96g@4ax.com>

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 17:09:12 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Wed, 18 May 2022 15:09 UTC

Wed, 18 May 2022 06:46:33 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>> > Athel seems to have been the only one to understand that the proposed
>> > photograph would feature my friends, not the people in the song.
>>
>> That seems to have been too difficult for PTD.
>
>JUST KEEP YOUR DAMN LIES TO YOURSELF.
>
>You still don't grasp that I was, and am, not familiar with the lyrics
>of the song?

When I get older losing my hair
Many years from now
Will you still be sending me a Valentine
Birthday greetings bottle of wine

If I'd been out till quarter to three
Would you lock the door
Will you still need me, will you still feed me
When I'm sixty-four

You'll be older too
And if you say the word
I could stay with you

I could be handy, mending a fuse
When your lights have gone
You can knit a sweater by the fireside
Sunday mornings go for a ride
Doing the garden, digging the weeds
Who could ask for more

Will you still need me, will you still feed me
When I'm sixty-four

Every summer we can rent a cottage
In the Isle of Wight, if it's not too dear
We shall scrimp and save
Grandchildren on your knee
Vera, Chuck and Dave

Send me a postcard, drop me a line
Stating point of view
Indicate precisely what you mean to say
Yours sincerely, wasting away

Give me your answer, fill in a form
Mine for evermore
Will you still need me, will you still feed me
When I'm sixty-four

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t633me$3ve$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 11:34:34 -0400
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 by: CDB - Wed, 18 May 2022 15:34 UTC

On 5/18/2022 10:18 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Paul Wolff wrote:

>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022, at 08:55:00, Ken Blake posted:
>>>>> You are correct. In AmE a "subway" is what BrE calls "tube"
>>>>> or "underground."

>>>> That is why my wife and I didn't get lunch in Anaheim, a suburb
>>>> of Los Angeles, after a business meeting. We were told we could
>>>> get it at a subway, which was [in a given direction]. We
>>>> couldn't find the subway. In the end, we gave up, and found a
>>>> fast sandwich place instead.

> :-)

>>> Unfamiliar terminology can be a real trap for travellers.

>>> I was once having lunch somewhere in Califormia, and realised
>>> that I had forgotten how to get back to the SF Bay area, so I
>>> asked how to get there. Somebody said "Take the 5" (or it might
>>> have been a different number), and I didn't have a clue what they
>>> meant. Luckily I got a better answer when I rephrased my question
>>> as "Where can I find a freeway entrance?"

>> The first time I drove in the U.S. was in the late 1970s, during
>> Menachem Begin's presidency of Israel. The first couple of times I
>> drove on the I-5 and other freeways, I kept noticing signs that
>> said "Begin Freeway", and I wondered why the guy was that popular
>> in the Pacific Northwest. I eventually worked it out.

> Begin was the prime minister. The presidency of Israel is a
> ceremonial job, and people outside the country don't hear about the
> president much. It's still a good story.

> Obaue: Is there a word that is to "prime minister" as "presidency" is
> to "president"? "Premiership"?

Probably, outside of football (2 kinds) and Canada.

We would probably say "prime-ministership"*, because a Premier is the
First Minister of a province.
_____________________________

*Without the hyphen, Microsoft Bing brags of 132,000,000 results, and I
speak advisedly.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t634ef$g9l$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 11:47:23 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: CDB - Wed, 18 May 2022 15:47 UTC

On 5/18/2022 10:23 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>> lar3ryca wrote:
>>>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>>>>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>> lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> scribeva:

>>>>>>>>>> Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of
>>>>>>>>>> 'costly' and 'expensive',

[...]

>>>>>>> I now suddenly remember "if it's not too dear". The
>>>>>>> Beatles. Maxwell's Silver Hammer? No. When I'm
>>>>>>> sixty-four? Yes:
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCTunqv1Xt4&t=1m33s

>>>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a
>>>>>> photo of my friends Vera, Chook,

>>>>> It's Chuck. That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to
>>>>> the Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general.
>>>>> By the way, I noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he
>>>>> (Paul McCartney) employs a strange different accent
>>>>> (attempted Scottish, maybe?) just before that.

>>>> Where, precisely, do you hear that? I Listened to the version
>>>> at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTgbWmaxu5s but could not
>>>> detect anything like that all the way from "Every summer we can
>>>> rent..."

>>>> I imagine it's because I am not familiar enough with the
>>>> various UK accents.

>>> There is a hint of it in the line:

>>> "grandchildren on y're knee"

>>> That "y're" sounds like an imitation of a Scots accent.

>>> I don't know where "Chuck" came from. It isn't a diminutive form
>>> of Charles that I've ever heard in BrE.

>> Names of the working class.

>> "Chuck" is not a diminutive but a nickname, an old endearment
>> related to "chick".

> I know a Charles who goes by "Chick". I've also seen "Chig" in a
> short story.

You also get "Chip", and I have heard of one "Charlesie" - no, two: one
was a housemate for a while, and the other is a Canadian journalist (she
spells it "Charlsie", I believe). If I were going to take on another
puppy, I would consider naming em "Chook".

>> In the Howard Pyle version of the Robin Hood stories they addressed
>> each other as "sweet chuck" quite a lot, meaning only to provide a
>> little local colour;

> Othello often addresses Desdemona as "chuck".

>> but it made me feel funny, since I was usually called "Chuck" when
>> I was young.

>> -- I always wanted to be Charlie, but nooo.

> We can call you Charlie if you want.

Thanks, but you're too late. Charlie, who was my uncle, is now my
nephew, and I am often mistaken for a business district.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:13 UTC

On 18-May-22 9:40, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

> In Germany 'Ausfahrt' seems a very popular village, it's signposted from all major roads.
>

I'm still looking for Gwasanaethau.
It appears on the road signs, but I can never find the town.

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:14 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 21:35:20 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 18/05/22 18:40, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 23:09:01 -0700 (PDT) "bil...@shaw.ca"
>> <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>> The first time I drove in the U.S. was in the late 1970s, during
>>> Menachem Begin's presidency of Israel. The first couple of times I
>>> drove on the I-5 and other freeways, I kept noticing signs that
>>> said "Begin Freeway", and I wondered why the guy was that popular
>>> in the Pacific Northwest. I eventually worked it out.
>>>
>> In Germany 'Ausfahrt' seems a very popular village, it's signposted
>> from all major roads.
>
>In my earliest experiences of Belgium I was amazed to see how many roads
>went from Uitrit to Sortie.

Speaking of town names, I once drove through Bastardo, in Umbria,
Italy.

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:20 UTC

On 18-May-22 11:50, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-05-17, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> On 17-May-22 11:42, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> "Oxter" is used in Yorkshire & Derbyshire (at least) as well.
>>
>>
>> I lived in Derbyshire (near the border with Yorkshire) for my first
>> couple of decades, and never came across it.
>
> I've only heard it occasionally --- the subject doesn't come up in a
> lot of conversations.

It's a long time since I was there for longer than the duration of a
funeral, so anything after the 1960s would escape my ears.

Conversation at/after funerals doesn't tend to revolve around armpits,
in my experience.

--
Sam Plusnet

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:22 UTC

On 18-May-22 10:22, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 18/05/2022 9:33 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 14:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Someone seems not to have kept up with South Pacific current events.
>>
>> Fair enough. We seem to focus on the Ukraine & Boris, though Strange
>> Going Ons in the US intrude, I think mostly because Brit reporters
>> would like a job in the US.
>
> But why? By all accounts the US is full of racists.
>
You go where the stories are.

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:25 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:23:34 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 5:40:21 AM UTC-6, CDB wrote:
>> On 5/17/2022 8:33 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> > lar3ryca wrote:
>> >> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>> >>>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >>>>>>> lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> scribeva:
>>
>> >>>>>>>> Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of
>> >>>>>>>> 'costly' and 'expensive',
>>
>> >>>>>> In article <amf28hlb5kti5m62u...@4ax.com>,
>> >>>>>> r...@rudhar.com says...
>> >>>>>>> But an unusual one, then.
>>
>> >>>>> Mon, 16 May 2022 11:42:05 +0100: Janet <nob...@home.com>
>> >>>>> scribeva:
>> >>>>>> Not at all; it's in common everyday Br E usage.
>>
>> >>>>> I now suddenly remember "if it's not too dear". The Beatles.
>> >>>>> Maxwell's Silver Hammer? No. When I'm sixty-four? Yes:
>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCTunqv1Xt4&t=1m33s
>>
>> >>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo
>> >>>> of my friends Vera, Chook,
>>
>> >>> It's Chuck. That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
>> >>> Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the
>> >>> way, I noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul
>> >>> McCartney) employs a strange different accent (attempted
>> >>> Scottish, maybe?) just before that.
>>
>> >> Where, precisely, do you hear that? I Listened to the version at
>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTgbWmaxu5s but could not detect
>> >> anything like that all the way from "Every summer we can rent..."
>>
>> >> I imagine it's because I am not familiar enough with the various UK
>> >> accents.
>>
>> > There is a hint of it in the line:
>>
>> > "grandchildren on y're knee"
>>
>> > That "y're" sounds like an imitation of a Scots accent.
>>
>> > I don't know where "Chuck" came from. It isn't a diminutive form of
>> > Charles that I've ever heard in BrE.
>
>> Names of the working class.
>>
>> "Chuck" is not a diminutive but a nickname, an old endearment related to
>> "chick".
>
>I know a Charles who goes by "Chick". I've also seen "Chig" in a short
>story.

I knew (knew of, at least. I never met him) a Leonard who went by
Chico (pronounced CHICK-O, by the way, not CHEEK-o), supposedly
because he was always chasing after chicks.

I known several men named Charles who went by "Chuck.."

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:27 UTC

On 18-May-22 2:34, Peter Moylan wrote:

> Athel seems to have been the only one to understand that the proposed
> photograph would feature my friends, not the people in the song.
>
> If I gave anyone the impression that I had planned to go to Liverpool
> and photograph people there, I apologise for giving that impression.
>
No. Your meaning, and the riff on the words of the song, were perfectly
clear if read in context.

Anyone having a problem following it must have wandered in part way
through the thread - or simply lacked the skills to understand that you
could take words of a song and change then to suit your narrative.

--
Sam Plusnet

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:31 UTC

On 18-May-22 1:59, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 01:33:33 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
(Of When I'm sixtyfour.)

>> I don't know where "Chuck" came from. It isn't a diminutive form of
>> Charles that I've ever heard in BrE.
>
> Some here will remember Charles Riggs. While he lived in Ireland, he
> was an American. He had been living in Ireland when I first
> encountered him here in a.u.e.
>
> He posted as "Chuck Riggs" and at other times as "Charles Riggs".
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/alt.usage.english@googlegroups.com/msg00070.html
>
> In this thread, he posts as "Chuck", but discusses "chuckless
> Ireland".
>
> https://alt.usage.english.narkive.com/r9E9jpWv/literary-bulletin#post2

Fair enough, but is any evidence that Paul McCartney knew of aue when he
wrote the song - in 1967?

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:38 UTC

On 18-May-22 7:09, Hibou wrote:
> Le 17/05/2022 à 16:47, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
In reply to Hibou

>> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.
>

Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley Girl"[1],
not a senior citizen in NJ?

[1] Not to be confused with a South Wales "Valley Girl" - which is a
very different thing altogether.

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 13:06:28 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:06 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:31:57 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 18-May-22 1:59, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 01:33:33 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>(Of When I'm sixtyfour.)
>
>>> I don't know where "Chuck" came from. It isn't a diminutive form of
>>> Charles that I've ever heard in BrE.
>>
>> Some here will remember Charles Riggs. While he lived in Ireland, he
>> was an American. He had been living in Ireland when I first
>> encountered him here in a.u.e.
>>
>> He posted as "Chuck Riggs" and at other times as "Charles Riggs".
>>
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/alt.usage.english@googlegroups.com/msg00070.html
>>
>> In this thread, he posts as "Chuck", but discusses "chuckless
>> Ireland".
>>
>> https://alt.usage.english.narkive.com/r9E9jpWv/literary-bulletin#post2
>
>Fair enough, but is any evidence that Paul McCartney knew of aue when he
>wrote the song - in 1967?

Ohhhh...that "evidence" thing. You Brits are hung up on the need for
evidence.

Is it any coincidence that threads throughout the years in a.u.e. have
focused on what is and what is not a sandwich? And "subs", which
invariably has led to the shape resembling a submarine? And the
Beatles recording a song about a submarine? I think not.

Don't encourage another protracted discussion on lack of evidence.

Let it be.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Quinn C - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:11 UTC

* Sam Plusnet:

> On 18-May-22 7:09, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 17/05/2022 à 16:47, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> In reply to Hibou
>
>>> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.
>>
>
> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley Girl"[1],
> not a senior citizen in NJ?

The point is that young women do such things 20-30 years earlier than
anyone else. They get criticized for it, but eventually, the world
catches up to them.

--
Repressing is a national sport in India, next to cricket.
-- Ada, on the Queersplaining podcast

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: char...@candehope.me.uk (charles)
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 18:16:26 +0100
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 by: charles - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:16 UTC

In article <20220518094017.3e73c545968f024af53dfba6@127.0.0.1>, "Kerr-Mudd,
John" <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 23:09:01 -0700 (PDT) "bil...@shaw.ca"
> <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:

> > On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:57:03 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > > On 16/05/22 05:02, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 15 May 2022, at 08:55:00, Ken Blake posted:
> > > >> You are correct. In AmE a "subway" is what BrE calls "tube" or
> > > >> "underground."
> > > >
> > > > That is why my wife and I didn't get lunch in Anaheim, a suburb of
> > > > Los Angeles, after a business meeting. We were told we could get it
> > > > at a subway, which was [in a given direction]. We couldn't find
> > > > the subway. In the end, we gave up, and found a fast sandwich
> > > > place instead.
> > > Unfamiliar terminology can be a real trap for travellers.
> > >
> > > I was once having lunch somewhere in Califormia, and realised that I
> > > had forgotten how to get back to the SF Bay area, so I asked how to
> > > get there. Somebody said "Take the 5" (or it might have been a
> > > different number), and I didn't have a clue what they meant. Luckily
> > > I got a better answer when I rephrased my question as "Where can I
> > > find a freeway entrance?"
> >
> > The first time I drove in the U.S. was in the late 1970s, during
> > Menachem Begin's presidency of Israel. The first couple of times I
> > drove on the I-5 and other freeways, I kept noticing signs that said
> > "Begin Freeway", and I wondered why the guy was that popular in the
> > Pacific Northwest. I eventually worked it out.
> >
> In Germany 'Ausfahrt' seems a very popular village, it's signposted from
> all major roads.

probably twinned with "Loose Chippings" in the UK

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: lar...@invalid.ca (lar3ryca)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 11:30:55 -0600
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 by: lar3ryca - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:30 UTC

On 2022-05-18 02:16, Snidely wrote:
> Just this Sunday, lar3ryca explained that ...
>> On 2022-05-15 19:56, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 16/05/22 05:02, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022, at 08:55:00, Ken Blake posted:
>>>
>>>>> You are correct. In AmE a "subway" is what BrE calls "tube" or
>>>>> "underground."
>>>>
>>>> That is why my wife and I didn't get lunch in Anaheim, a suburb of
>>>> Los Angeles, after a business meeting. We were told we could get it
>>>> at a subway, which was [in a given direction]. We couldn't find the
>>>> subway. In the end, we gave up, and found a fast sandwich place
>>>> instead.
>>>
>>> Unfamiliar terminology can be a real trap for travellers.
>>>
>>> I was once having lunch somewhere in Califormia, and realised that I had
>>> forgotten how to get back to the SF Bay area, so I asked how to get
>>> there. Somebody said "Take the 5" (or it might have been a different
>>> number), and I didn't have a clue what they meant. Luckily I got a
>>> better answer when I rephrased my question as "Where can I find a
>>> freeway entrance?"
>>
>> 'The 5' is correct.
>
> For a common routing, but it's an incomplete answer for anywhere in the
> Bay Area, as I-5 avoids that blob, and turns away towards Sacramento.
>
> You can probably figure out a way to complete the answer once you start
> seeing signs for diverting routes, but it helps to know where the
> various names are located in the Bay Area, as some of the connections
> better serve one end of the water than the other.
>
>> When I worked for Comma Services, we once were expecting a guy from
>> Los Angeles, who was going to be driving up.
>
> Up where?

oops... Forgot to mention. I was in Vancouver.

>>  He had our address, but was wondering how he could find out office.
>> I told him to get onto I5 and when he got to the cross-street one
>> block from the T-junction, to make a left turn, and drive one block.
> Where is the T-junction on I-5?

It's not on I-5, but I did not tell him that it was.

At the border, the I-5 becomes Hwy 99. After crossing the Fraser River,
Hwy 99 becomes Oak St. Coming down the hill At about West 8th St., you
could see the T-junction where Oak St. ended at E Broadway. At that
time, East 7th Avenue was the last street before the T-junction

SO I justr told him to get onto I-5 and stay on the road all the way to
one block before a T-junction.

>> Got a chance in 2002 or so, to give similar directions to a fellow
>> from Vancouver who wanted to drop by my farm in Saskatchewan.
>
> You have an I5 or an I-5 in Saskatchewan?

Nope. Similar <> exactly the same.

A friend I worked with in Vancouver was going to travel to Newfoundland,
and asked me to have another fellow give him directions. He was unsure
that he could follow written directions, I guess.

So I told him it was easy. "Get onto Hwy 1 (Trans-canada Highway). Turn
left at McLean, SK. Drive 4 miles. My place is on the left.

He found it easily.

--
Synonym: a word you can use instead of a word you can't spell.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 18:40:01 +0100
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:40 UTC

On 18/05/2022 6:06 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
> Ohhhh...that "evidence" thing. You Brits are hung up on the need for
> evidence. > Ohhhh...that "evidence" thing. You Brits are hung up on the
need for
> evidence.

Whereas you Usanians clearly are not. (We have ample evidence for
this.)

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: lar...@invalid.ca (lar3ryca)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: lar3ryca - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:45 UTC

On 2022-05-18 10:25, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:23:34 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 5:40:21 AM UTC-6, CDB wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 8:33 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>> lar3ryca wrote:
>>>>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>>>>>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> scribeva:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of
>>>>>>>>>>> 'costly' and 'expensive',
>>>
>>>>>>>>> In article <amf28hlb5kti5m62u...@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>> r...@rudhar.com says...
>>>>>>>>>> But an unusual one, then.
>>>
>>>>>>>> Mon, 16 May 2022 11:42:05 +0100: Janet <nob...@home.com>
>>>>>>>> scribeva:
>>>>>>>>> Not at all; it's in common everyday Br E usage.
>>>
>>>>>>>> I now suddenly remember "if it's not too dear". The Beatles.
>>>>>>>> Maxwell's Silver Hammer? No. When I'm sixty-four? Yes:
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCTunqv1Xt4&t=1m33s
>>>
>>>>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo
>>>>>>> of my friends Vera, Chook,
>>>
>>>>>> It's Chuck. That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
>>>>>> Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the
>>>>>> way, I noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul
>>>>>> McCartney) employs a strange different accent (attempted
>>>>>> Scottish, maybe?) just before that.
>>>
>>>>> Where, precisely, do you hear that? I Listened to the version at
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTgbWmaxu5s but could not detect
>>>>> anything like that all the way from "Every summer we can rent..."
>>>
>>>>> I imagine it's because I am not familiar enough with the various UK
>>>>> accents.
>>>
>>>> There is a hint of it in the line:
>>>
>>>> "grandchildren on y're knee"
>>>
>>>> That "y're" sounds like an imitation of a Scots accent.
>>>
>>>> I don't know where "Chuck" came from. It isn't a diminutive form of
>>>> Charles that I've ever heard in BrE.
>>
>>> Names of the working class.
>>>
>>> "Chuck" is not a diminutive but a nickname, an old endearment related to
>>> "chick".
>>
>> I know a Charles who goes by "Chick". I've also seen "Chig" in a short
>> story.
>
>
> I knew (knew of, at least. I never met him) a Leonard who went by
> Chico (pronounced CHICK-O, by the way, not CHEEK-o), supposedly
> because he was always chasing after chicks.
>
> I known several men named Charles who went by "Chuck.."

Before Prince Charles and Diana had their first child, some wag
suggested they call the little one 'Upton', so that everyone could refer
to the family by their nicknames, 'Up, Chuck, and Di'.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: lar...@invalid.ca (lar3ryca)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: lar3ryca - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:49 UTC

On 2022-05-18 00:27, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 17 May 2022 13:34:17 -0600: lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> scribeva:
>
>> On 2022-05-16 23:32, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> On 17/05/22 01:33, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>> Sat, 14 May 2022 13:52:31 -0600: lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca>
>>>>>>> scribeva:
>>>>>>>> Hmmm... since 'dear' (in English), is a synonym of 'costly'
>>>>>>>> and 'expensive',
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <amf28hlb5kti5m62uobvdr6f3sk21efqmf@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> rh@rudhar.com says...
>>>>>>> But an unusual one, then.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mon, 16 May 2022 11:42:05 +0100: Janet <nobody@home.com> scribeva:
>>>>>> Not at all; it's in common everyday Br E usage.
>>>>>
>>>>> I now suddenly remember "if it's not too dear". The Beatles.
>>>>> Maxwell's Silver Hammer? No. When I'm sixty-four? Yes:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCTunqv1Xt4&t=1m33s
>>>>
>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>>>> friends Vera, Chook,
>>>
>>> It's Chuck. That it may seem to sound like Chook is due to the
>>> Liverpool accent, or Northern English accent in general. By the way, I
>>> noticed yesterday, for the first time, that he (Paul McCartney)
>>> employs a strange different accent (attempted Scottish, maybe?) just
>>> before that.
>>
>> Where, precisely, do you hear that? I Listened to the version at
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTgbWmaxu5s
>> but could not detect anything like that all the way from
>> "Every summer we can rent..."
>
> The sound quality of that version is not good enough so you can hear
> it. "Grrrandchildren on yerrr knee." In that remastered version it is
> audible, from 1:48:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCTunqv1Xt4&t=1m48s
>
>> I imagine it's because I am not familiar enough with the various UK accents.
>
> No. Just the sound quality.

Ahh! That's a definite trill. Thanks.

--
Copper wire was invented by two Scots during an argument over the
ownership of a penny.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Wed, 18 May 2022 18:10 UTC

On 18-May-22 18:06, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 17:31:57 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 18-May-22 1:59, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 01:33:33 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>> (Of When I'm sixtyfour.)
>>
>>>> I don't know where "Chuck" came from. It isn't a diminutive form of
>>>> Charles that I've ever heard in BrE.
>>>
>>> Some here will remember Charles Riggs. While he lived in Ireland, he
>>> was an American. He had been living in Ireland when I first
>>> encountered him here in a.u.e.
>>>
>>> He posted as "Chuck Riggs" and at other times as "Charles Riggs".
>>>
>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/alt.usage.english@googlegroups.com/msg00070.html
>>>
>>> In this thread, he posts as "Chuck", but discusses "chuckless
>>> Ireland".
>>>
>>> https://alt.usage.english.narkive.com/r9E9jpWv/literary-bulletin#post2
>>
>> Fair enough, but is any evidence that Paul McCartney knew of aue when he
>> wrote the song - in 1967?
>
> Ohhhh...that "evidence" thing. You Brits are hung up on the need for
> evidence.
>
> Is it any coincidence that threads throughout the years in a.u.e. have
> focused on what is and what is not a sandwich? And "subs", which
> invariably has led to the shape resembling a submarine? And the
> Beatles recording a song about a submarine? I think not.
>
> Don't encourage another protracted discussion on lack of evidence.
>
> Let it be.

<mild swerve> I rewatched the Beatles parody last night.

"The Rutles: All you need is cash"

It included a lot of parody songs written & performed by Neil Innes.
Not a one of them would have been out of place in the Lennon/McCartney
catalogue.

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Wed, 18 May 2022 18:22 UTC

On 18-May-22 18:11, Quinn C wrote:
> * Sam Plusnet:
>
>> On 18-May-22 7:09, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 17/05/2022 à 16:47, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> In reply to Hibou
>>
>>>> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.
>>>
>>
>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley Girl"[1],
>> not a senior citizen in NJ?
>
> The point is that young women do such things 20-30 years earlier than
> anyone else. They get criticized for it, but eventually, the world
> catches up to them.
>
No it doesn't.
That's quite misleading.
Young women (& men for that matter) may produce a great number of
phrases and expressions, but the vast majority of them vanish as quickly
as they arise. Often that transience is part of their appeal.

The adoption of one single phrase by an eccentric in New Jersey is not
evidence of some inexorable march of progress.

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: lar3ryca - Wed, 18 May 2022 19:05 UTC

On 2022-05-18 11:40, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 18/05/2022 6:06 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> Ohhhh...that "evidence" thing.  You Brits are hung up on the need for
>> evidence. > Ohhhh...that "evidence" thing.  You Brits are hung up on the
> need for
>> evidence.
>
>
>
> Whereas you Usanians clearly are not. (We have ample evidence for this.)

To be fair, most of that comes from one eccentric (see, I can be polite
too).

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Wed, 18 May 2022 19:51 UTC

Wed, 18 May 2022 19:22:42 +0100: Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> scribeva:

>On 18-May-22 18:11, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Sam Plusnet:
>>
>>> On 18-May-22 7:09, Hibou wrote:
>>>> Le 17/05/2022 à 16:47, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>> In reply to Hibou
>>>
>>>>> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley Girl"[1],
>>> not a senior citizen in NJ?
>>
>> The point is that young women do such things 20-30 years earlier than
>> anyone else. They get criticized for it, but eventually, the world
>> catches up to them.
>>
>No it doesn't.
>That's quite misleading.
>Young women (& men for that matter) may produce a great number of
>phrases and expressions, but the vast majority of them vanish as quickly
>as they arise. Often that transience is part of their appeal.

Exactly.

>The adoption of one single phrase by an eccentric in New Jersey is not
>evidence of some inexorable march of progress.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Wed, 18 May 2022 20:13 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:38:23 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 18-May-22 7:09, Hibou wrote:
> > Le 17/05/2022 à 16:47, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> In reply to Hibou

> >> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.
>
> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley Girl",
> not a senior citizen in NJ?

So Americanisms are another thing you're not up on. It is not pronounced
as an initialism; it is simply "oh, my God!" expressing incredulity.

If you hadn't thoroughly scrubbed the context, you would have seen
that it was a reaction to the suggestion that the Right to Bear Arms
was invented in connection with the "Wild West."

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 13:19:21 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Wed, 18 May 2022 20:19 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 2:22:47 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:

[the perfectly ordinary expression "oh, my God"]
> The adoption of one single phrase by an eccentric in New Jersey

Evidence of some sort of uniqueness or exclusivity?

I'm sure TC is flattered by your imitation.

Is it the imitation or the flattery that's sincere?

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