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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: Smart

SubjectAuthor
* SmartRuud Harmsen
+* Re: SmartAdam Funk
|+* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||`* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
|| `- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
|`- Re: SmartQuinn C
+- Re: SmartCDB
+* Re: SmartJerry Friedman
|+* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||+* Re: SmartSnidely
|||`- Re: SmartAthel Cornish-Bowden
||`* Re: SmartJerry Friedman
|| `* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  +* Re: SmartSilvano
||  |+* Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels
||  ||`* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  || +* Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels
||  || |`- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  || +* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  || |`- Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels
||  || `- Re: SmartPeter Moylan
||  |`* Re: SmartDavid Kleinecke
||  | `- Re: SmartPeter Moylan
||  +* Re: SmartStefan Ram
||  |`* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  | +* Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels
||  | |`* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  | | `- Re: SmartKerr-Mudd, John
||  | `* Re: SmartStefan Ram
||  |  `- Re: SmartStefan Ram
||  +- Re: SmartMadhu
||  `* Re: SmartJerry Friedman
||   +* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||   |+- Re: SmartPeter Moylan
||   |`* Re: SmartJerry Friedman
||   | `* Re: Smartruudhar...@gmail.com
||   |  `* Re: SmartJerry Friedman
||   |   +* Re: SmartRichard Heathfield
||   |   |`- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||   |   +* Re: SmartAthel Cornish-Bowden
||   |   |+- Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels
||   |   |`- Re: SmartPeter Moylan
||   |   `* Re: SmartSnidely
||   |    `- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||   `- Re: SmartQuinn C
|`* Re: SmartCDB
| `* Re: SmartKerr-Mudd, John
|  `- Re: SmartCDB
`* Re: Smartbil...@shaw.ca
 +- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
 +* Re: SmartKen Blake
 |`- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
 `* Re: SmartSam Plusnet
  `* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
   +- Re: SmartSnidely
   +- Re: SmartCDB
   `- Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels

Pages:123
Smart

<i3t98hd052iv8g835h9o36npvvpgocd069@4ax.com>

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Smart
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 15:32:00 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Wed, 18 May 2022 13:32 UTC

In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.

It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.

Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.

So be it.

Re: Smart

<habflix4h2.ln2@news.ducksburg.com>

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 15:09:53 +0100
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 by: Adam Funk - Wed, 18 May 2022 14:09 UTC

On 2022-05-18, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>
> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>
> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.
>
> So be it.

What about two-word comments? Could you clarify your position on
those?

--
The Nixon I remembered was absolutely humorless; I couldn't imagine
him laughing at anything except maybe a paraplegic who wanted to vote
Democratic but couldn't quite reach the lever on the voting machine.
---Hunter S Thompson

Re: Smart

<t630b4$5ue$2@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 10:37:20 -0400
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 by: CDB - Wed, 18 May 2022 14:37 UTC

On 5/18/2022 9:32 AM, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute
> detail, and explained and introduced and explained again, and
> referred to. Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the
> contributor for it.

> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.

Oh noes! is the law retroactive?

> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.

> So be it.

Re: Smart

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 17:15:17 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Wed, 18 May 2022 15:15 UTC

Wed, 18 May 2022 15:09:53 +0100: Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
scribeva:

>On 2022-05-18, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
>> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
>> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>>
>> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
>> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
>> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>>
>> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.
>>
>> So be it.
>
>What about two-word comments? Could you clarify your position on
>those?

No kan do.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: Smart

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
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Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 17:16:29 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Wed, 18 May 2022 15:16 UTC

Wed, 18 May 2022 17:15:17 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Wed, 18 May 2022 15:09:53 +0100: Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
>scribeva:
>
>>On 2022-05-18, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>>> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
>>> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
>>> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>>>
>>> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
>>> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
>>> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>>>
>>> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.
>>>
>>> So be it.
>>
>>What about two-word comments? Could you clarify your position on
>>those?
>
>No kan do.

Some now are.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 17:16:49 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Wed, 18 May 2022 15:16 UTC

Wed, 18 May 2022 17:16:29 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Wed, 18 May 2022 17:15:17 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
>scribeva:
>
>>Wed, 18 May 2022 15:09:53 +0100: Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
>>scribeva:
>>
>>>On 2022-05-18, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>
>>>> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
>>>> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
>>>> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>>>>
>>>> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
>>>> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
>>>> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.
>>>>
>>>> So be it.
>>>
>>>What about two-word comments? Could you clarify your position on
>>>those?
>>
>>No kan do.
>
>Some now are.

All your base are belong to us.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
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 by: Jerry Friedman - Wed, 18 May 2022 15:30 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 7:32:05 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>
> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.

Kind of funny. Fifteen or twenty years ago, a.u.e was a haven for obscure
references and cryptic connections. CDB might be the only person who
still does that a lot, though I'll indulge myself once in a while.

> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.

Communication--brace yourself for a profound and original remark--
communication requires give and take. In my opinion, the speaker or
writer has the primary responsibility, but the listener or reader has some
responsibility too. If both want communication to happen and are
considerate of each other's feelings instead of flying off the handle at
the first problem, things will probably go well. There are some people
here who fly off the handle quickly, especially with people they dislike,
and some of us like to ignore them or answer them non-confrontationally
when they do that.

> So be it.

The difficulties you're having are not inevitable. There are probably a
few people here who, now that they feel hostile toward you, will never
stop. "So be it" is an option for you, of course, but if you want to get
along with some others who now feel hostile to you, you might want
to look at other posters who get along with a lot of people here.

--
Jerry Friedman

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
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 by: Quinn C - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:20 UTC

* Adam Funk:

> On 2022-05-18, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
>> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
>> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>>
>> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
>> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
>> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>>
>> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.
>>
>> So be it.
>
> What about two-word comments? Could you clarify your position on
> those?

No comment.

--
A "moderate Republican" now is a far-right Republican who
publicly laments it.
-- John Fugelsang (2021)

Re: Smart

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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 19:23:06 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Wed, 18 May 2022 17:23 UTC

Wed, 18 May 2022 08:30:07 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>The difficulties you're having are not inevitable. There are probably a
>few people here who, now that they feel hostile toward you, will never
>stop.

That's what I said all the time. The "not one of us" effect. Very
human, very understandable, very fundamental, but also the root of
racism, violent nationalism, hate wars like Putin's, hate against LGBT
people, etc. So I will keep protesting when I see it. Not so much for
myself, but for all the other victims. Trying to make people aware.
Even though the same mechanism makes them blind to it.

https://rudhar.com/politics/viapace/en.htm

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: Smart

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From: snidely....@gmail.com (Snidely)
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Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 14:53:39 -0700
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 by: Snidely - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:53 UTC

Ruud Harmsen explained :
> Wed, 18 May 2022 08:30:07 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>> The difficulties you're having are not inevitable. There are probably a
>> few people here who, now that they feel hostile toward you, will never
>> stop.
>
> That's what I said all the time. The "not one of us" effect. Very
> human, very understandable, very fundamental, but also the root of
> racism, violent nationalism, hate wars like Putin's, hate against LGBT
> people, etc. So I will keep protesting when I see it. Not so much for
> myself, but for all the other victims. Trying to make people aware.
> Even though the same mechanism makes them blind to it.
>
> https://rudhar.com/politics/viapace/en.htm

But I've seen plenty of new posters in AUE be accepted quickly. Alas,
new posters have become a rare thing.

At one time, I was a new poster. A few people have left me out of
their killfiles for now, and at some point I may even be admitted to
the ranks of the "usual suspects".

/dps

--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

Re: Smart

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From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
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 by: Jerry Friedman - Wed, 18 May 2022 23:05 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 11:23:11 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 18 May 2022 08:30:07 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> >The difficulties you're having are not inevitable. There are probably a
> >few people here who, now that they feel hostile toward you, will never
> >stop.

> That's what I said all the time.

"That's what I've been saying all the time," unless you mean you're not
going to say it any more. "That's what I've been saying" is probably
more natural.

And it's not what you said. I said "probably a few people" and you said
"this group".

> The "not one of us" effect. Very
> human, very understandable, very fundamental, but also the root of
> racism, violent nationalism, hate wars like Putin's, hate against LGBT
> people, etc. So I will keep protesting when I see it.

But the hostility toward you is not about your race or any "protected
class" (as we say in the U.S.) that you belong to, and as Snidely said, it's
mostly not about being a newcomer. It's about your behavior.

> Not so much for
> myself, but for all the other victims. Trying to make people aware.
> Even though the same mechanism makes them blind to it.
....

If you're trying to make people aware of what they're doing wrong, you're
going about it in entirely the wrong way.

--
Jerry Friedman

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 08:10:39 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 06:10 UTC

Wed, 18 May 2022 16:05:49 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 11:23:11 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Wed, 18 May 2022 08:30:07 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>> >The difficulties you're having are not inevitable. There are probably a
>> >few people here who, now that they feel hostile toward you, will never
>> >stop.
>
>> That's what I said all the time.
>
>"That's what I've been saying all the time," unless you mean you're not
>going to say it any more. "That's what I've been saying" is probably
>more natural.

I am unlearnable (to quote the late Franz Gnadiger) on the subject of
English tenses and aspects. I studied, or have studied, or have been
studying, the rules many times, and still I just don't understand them
and cannot apply them correctly. So I just gave up.

One problem is that in English the perfect tense denotes imperfect
aspect: actions in the past that continue, or have continuing effects,
into the present and even the future. Totally devoid of any logic.

>And it's not what you said. I said "probably a few people" and you said
>"this group".
>
>> The "not one of us" effect. Very
>> human, very understandable, very fundamental, but also the root of
>> racism, violent nationalism, hate wars like Putin's, hate against LGBT
>> people, etc. So I will keep protesting when I see it.
>
>But the hostility toward you is not about your race or any "protected
>class" (as we say in the U.S.) that you belong to,

The essence is "group". That's my theory. The label, situation or
property by which group membership is determined is immaterial. The
mechanism is the same every time.

>and as Snidely said, it's
>mostly not about being a newcomer. It's about your behavior.

Yes. It's all entirely my fault. Amen.

But seriously, you are right. I have a tendency of triggering the evil
group behaviour that is understandably inherent to mankind, because it
was once essential for survival. But now, in these modern times, it is
wrong.

I didn't do anything wrong. I only triggered wrong behaviour in
others. That they will never admit that, is also part of the
evolutionary mechanism.

>> Not so much for
>> myself, but for all the other victims. Trying to make people aware.
>> Even though the same mechanism makes them blind to it.
>...
>
>If you're trying to make people aware of what they're doing wrong, you're
>going about it in entirely the wrong way.

True. It is ineffective.

The Western world has Freedom of Expression. However criticism, trying
to improve things by pointing out what is wrong with the current
method or situation, is culturally unacceptable. The stereotype is
that that is an East-Asian thing. But in reality, it is very
European/American, i.e., Western.

The Emperor wears no cloths. I've said it. (Or: I said it, I have been
saying it, whatever.)

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: Smart

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
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Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 09:24:50 +0200
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Thu, 19 May 2022 07:24 UTC

On 2022-05-18 21:53:39 +0000, Snidely said:

> Ruud Harmsen explained :
>> Wed, 18 May 2022 08:30:07 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>>> The difficulties you're having are not inevitable. There are probably a
>>> few people here who, now that they feel hostile toward you, will never
>>> stop.
>>
>> That's what I said all the time. The "not one of us" effect. Very
>> human, very understandable, very fundamental, but also the root of
>> racism, violent nationalism, hate wars like Putin's, hate against LGBT
>> people, etc. So I will keep protesting when I see it. Not so much for
>> myself, but for all the other victims. Trying to make people aware.
>> Even though the same mechanism makes them blind to it.
>>
>> https://rudhar.com/politics/viapace/en.htm
>
> But I've seen plenty of new posters in AUE be accepted quickly.

Yes. Cheryl was a respected regular from day 1. Likewise James Hogg,
who arrived at about the same time. Both now gone, unfortunately.

> Alas, new posters have become a rare thing.
>
> At one time, I was a new poster. A few people have left me out of
> their killfiles for now, and at some point I may even be admitted to
> the ranks of the "usual suspects".
>
> /dps

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
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 by: bil...@shaw.ca - Thu, 19 May 2022 07:51 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 6:32:05 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>
> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>
> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.
>
> So be it.

They misunderstand you, and that's their fault? I think you're still in that phase
where you think everyone else should worship at your shrine. Nobody else gets
that sort of treatment. Why should you?

bill

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
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 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 11:22 UTC

On 5/18/2022 11:30 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute
>> detail, and explained and introduced and explained again, and
>> referred to. Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the
>> contributor for it.

>> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
>> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
>> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.

> Kind of funny. Fifteen or twenty years ago, a.u.e was a haven for
> obscure references and cryptic connections. CDB might be the only
> person who still does that a lot, though I'll indulge myself once in
> a while.

The Mudge does it. Can't make em out, sometimes.

Back in the day, one could wait for someone to respond in the hope that
a second cryptic remark would make things clearer.

>> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the
>> misunderstanders.

> Communication--brace yourself for a profound and original remark--
> communication requires give and take. In my opinion, the speaker or
> writer has the primary responsibility, but the listener or reader has
> some responsibility too. If both want communication to happen and
> are considerate of each other's feelings instead of flying off the
> handle at the first problem, things will probably go well. There are
> some people here who fly off the handle quickly, especially with
> people they dislike, and some of us like to ignore them or answer
> them non-confrontationally when they do that.

>> So be it.

> The difficulties you're having are not inevitable. There are
> probably a few people here who, now that they feel hostile toward
> you, will never stop. "So be it" is an option for you, of course,
> but if you want to get along with some others who now feel hostile to
> you, you might want to look at other posters who get along with a lot
> of people here.

And be prepared to take some punches without hitting back.

--
As I say, not as I do.
>

Re: Smart

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Thu, 19 May 2022 11:39 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:22:28 -0400
CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/18/2022 11:30 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> >> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute
> >> detail, and explained and introduced and explained again, and
> >> referred to. Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the
> >> contributor for it.
>
> >> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
> >> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
> >> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>
> > Kind of funny. Fifteen or twenty years ago, a.u.e was a haven for
> > obscure references and cryptic connections. CDB might be the only
> > person who still does that a lot, though I'll indulge myself once in
> > a while.
>
> The Mudge does it. Can't make em out, sometimes.
I worry sometimes that someone will ask me to explain; I might have forgotten it myself in the meantime.
>
> Back in the day, one could wait for someone to respond in the hope that
> a second cryptic remark would make things clearer.
>

[]
> And be prepared to take some punches without hitting back.
>
LlapGoch, wasn't it?

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Smart

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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 12:07 UTC

Thu, 19 May 2022 00:51:04 -0700 (PDT): "bil...@shaw.ca"
<billvan@shaw.ca> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 6:32:05 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
>> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
>> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>>
>> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
>> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
>> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>>
>> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.
>>
>> So be it.
>
>They misunderstand you, and that's their fault?

Did I say that? Read again.

My reproach is not about the misunderstanding, but about the way they
handle it: "instant lifelong ban is merited".

In MY worldview, misunderstandings are there to be cleared up (ask for
explanation; point out seemingly illogical point), then: no harm done.
But these people knew for themselves that they knew what I meant and
intended, no question asked, and then decide about the deserved
punishment, instantly. That is unjust.

>I think you're still in that phase
>where you think everyone else should worship at your shrine.

An utter misunderstanding, again. I don't want that at all.

All I ask is that what I write is judged at its merits, without the
prejudice "Oh, it's him again, this can only be crap, because of bla
bla bla in the past". But that is too much to ask, I know, because
humans are hardly capable of such an unprejudices attitude at all.
Certainly if they aren't even willing to try, and refuse to see the
problem (not concerning me, but the PRINCIPLE), it won't be possible.

>Nobody else gets that sort of treatment. Why should you?

Because I refuse to humbly shut up when I have something to say on a
subject. That's what alleged newcomers are supposed to do.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: Smart

<t65h6p$1flj$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: Silv...@noncisonopernessuno.it (Silvano)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 15:37:29 +0200
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 by: Silvano - Thu, 19 May 2022 13:37 UTC

Ruud Harmsen hat am 19.05.2022 um 08:10 geschrieben:
> One problem is that in English the perfect tense denotes imperfect
> aspect: actions in the past that continue, or have continuing effects,
> into the present and even the future. Totally devoid of any logic.

Perhaps it could help you if you used the more usual name "past
progressive" or "past continuous" for the form "I was working" and
"present perfect continuous" or "present perfect progressive" for "I
have been working". The main point here is the continuous aspect, sadly
missing in German. Is it missing in Dutch, too?

If native speakers have nothing to say against it,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uses_of_English_verb_forms> should be the
base for the names of the various English verb forms.

Re: Smart

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 09:53:38 -0400
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 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 13:53 UTC

On 5/19/2022 7:39 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>>>> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute
>>>> detail, and explained and introduced and explained again, and
>>>> referred to. Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the
>>>> contributor for it.

>>>> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three
>>>> word comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation,
>>>> and involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.

>>> Kind of funny. Fifteen or twenty years ago, a.u.e was a haven
>>> for obscure references and cryptic connections. CDB might be the
>>> only person who still does that a lot, though I'll indulge myself
>>> once in a while.

>> The Mudge does it. Can't make em out, sometimes.
> I worry sometimes that someone will ask me to explain; I might have
> forgotten it myself in the meantime.

>> Back in the day, one could wait for someone to respond in the hope
>> that a second cryptic remark would make things clearer.

> []
>> And be prepared to take some punches without hitting back.

> LlapGoch, wasn't it?

Without even a leek for a splashback.

Re: Smart

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: 19 May 2022 15:01:42 GMT
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 by: Stefan Ram - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:01 UTC

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> writes:
>I am unlearnable (to quote the late Franz Gnadiger) on the subject of
>English tenses and aspects. I studied, or have studied, or have been
>studying, the rules many times, and still I just don't understand them
>and cannot apply them correctly. So I just gave up.
>One problem is that in English the perfect tense denotes imperfect
>aspect: actions in the past that continue, or have continuing effects,
>into the present and even the future. Totally devoid of any logic.

/Every process/ has effects in its entire front light cone.
So that rule is not helpful.

I'm also bad at choosing the right tenseses, but that's
because I haven't learned that properly yet.

What I do now:
1. read a textbook on tenses and work on the exercises,
2. learn the translation of single sentences of my native
language with flashcards.

Example for 1:

|You ask people what they have done. Ask questions with /ever/:
|1. (ride / horse?) Have you ever ridden a horse?
|2. (be / Mexico?) Have __________
|3. (most beautiful place / visit?) What's __________
|...

Example for 2:

(de) Wir leben seit 1955 in San Francisco.
(en) __________

The correct answer would be: "We /have lived/ in San
Francisco since 1955." Note also how the position of
the time specification changes. So with this single
flashcard you learn both the tense and the order!

You can type the exercises from "1." into your flashcard
software too. This way you can repeat them over and over
again, until you get the answers right.

"Unlearnable" might just mean that you underestimate the
effort or are not willing to spend it.

Re: Smart

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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
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 by: Madhu - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:37 UTC

* Ruud Harmsen <jtmb8h5us3dakv02uv122uunpr4g1snc1l @4ax.com> :
Wrote on Thu, 19 May 2022 08:10:39 +0200:
> Wed, 18 May 2022 16:05:49 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_friedman @yahoo.com> scribeva:
>>But the hostility toward you is not about your race or any "protected
>>class" (as we say in the U.S.) that you belong to,
>
> The essence is "group". That's my theory. The label, situation or
> property by which group membership is determined is immaterial. The
> mechanism is the same every time.
>
>>and as Snidely said, it's mostly not about being a newcomer. It's
>>about your behavior.
>
> Yes. It's all entirely my fault. Amen.
>
> But seriously, you are right. I have a tendency of triggering the evil
> group behaviour that is understandably inherent to mankind, because it
> was once essential for survival. But now, in these modern times, it is
> wrong.

I have encountered in several chatgroups over 25 years the trigger +
ganging-up response behaviour that you have described. I think I pretty
well understand how it works, and in the process and have also honed my
triggering skills. While there may be a hint of that pattern in this
case, I find aue is relatively free of that malaise, and

> I didn't do anything wrong. I only triggered wrong behaviour in
> others. That they will never admit that, is also part of the
> evolutionary mechanism.

and more importantly is relatively free of those reasons that usually
cause that response.

In any case it is irrelevant whether you have not done anything wrong
(I'm sure you haven't)

Re: Smart

<e8be50cb-a63b-4ff1-97ae-36821f613a36n@googlegroups.com>

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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 19 May 2022 16:18 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 9:37:35 AM UTC-4, Silvano wrote:
> Ruud Harmsen hat am 19.05.2022 um 08:10 geschrieben:

> > One problem is that in English the perfect tense denotes imperfect
> > aspect: actions in the past that continue, or have continuing effects,
> > into the present and even the future. Totally devoid of any logic.
>
> Perhaps it could help you if you used the more usual name "past
> progressive" or "past continuous" for the form "I was working" and
> "present perfect continuous" or "present perfect progressive" for "I
> have been working". The main point here is the continuous aspect, sadly
> missing in German. Is it missing in Dutch, too?
>
> If native speakers have nothing to say against it,
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uses_of_English_verb_forms> should be the
> base for the names of the various English verb forms.

The terminology in the outline at the top seems pretty standard.

Re: Smart

<97ac9025-9868-4823-ad9e-fe72af21cfddn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Smart
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
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 by: Jerry Friedman - Thu, 19 May 2022 16:41 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:10:44 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 18 May 2022 16:05:49 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>
> >On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 11:23:11 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Wed, 18 May 2022 08:30:07 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> >> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> >> >The difficulties you're having are not inevitable. There are probably a
> >> >few people here who, now that they feel hostile toward you, will never
> >> >stop.
> >
> >> That's what I said all the time.
> >
> >"That's what I've been saying all the time," unless you mean you're not
> >going to say it any more. "That's what I've been saying" is probably
> >more natural.

I forgot a very idiomatic possibility: "That's what I've been saying all along."

> I am unlearnable (to quote the late Franz Gnadiger) on the subject of
> English tenses and aspects. I studied, or have studied, or have been
> studying, the rules many times, and still I just don't understand them
> and cannot apply them correctly. So I just gave up.

OK, I admit it's very difficult, and no language I know anything about has
anything like "I've been saying".

If you want me to stop correcting you on such things, I'll stop.
> One problem is that in English the perfect tense denotes imperfect
> aspect: actions in the past that continue, or have continuing effects,
> into the present and even the future. Totally devoid of any logic.

The problem is not logic; it's terminology. Maybe "perfect" is a misleading
name for "I have VERBed" and its relatives, but don't be misled by the name.

> >And it's not what you said. I said "probably a few people" and you said
> >"this group".
> >
> >> The "not one of us" effect. Very
> >> human, very understandable, very fundamental, but also the root of
> >> racism, violent nationalism, hate wars like Putin's, hate against LGBT
> >> people, etc. So I will keep protesting when I see it.
> >
> >But the hostility toward you is not about your race or any "protected
> >class" (as we say in the U.S.) that you belong to,

> The essence is "group". That's my theory. The label, situation or
> property by which group membership is determined is immaterial. The
> mechanism is the same every time.

I hope you see that when /some/ people in this group act in a certain
hostile way, and you say "It is strictly forbidden here" and such things,
you're making that very mistake.

> >and as Snidely said, it's
> >mostly not about being a newcomer. It's about your behavior.

> Yes. It's all entirely my fault. Amen.
>
> But seriously, you are right. I have a tendency of triggering the evil
> group behaviour that is understandably inherent to mankind, because it
> was once essential for survival. But now, in these modern times, it is
> wrong.
>
> I didn't do anything wrong. I only triggered wrong behaviour in
> others. That they will never admit that, is also part of the
> evolutionary mechanism.

No, you did do things wrong. For instance, in the "When I'm 64"
incident, you could have said, "Did you mean 'Vera, Chuck, and Dave'
as in the Beatles song, or am I missing something?" I think you would
have gotten considerably less hostility.

In other words, the problem, in my view, was not just that you
misunderstood. It's that you didn't take into account the possibility
that you might have misunderstood.

> >> Not so much for
> >> myself, but for all the other victims. Trying to make people aware.
> >> Even though the same mechanism makes them blind to it.
> >...
> >
> >If you're trying to make people aware of what they're doing wrong, you're
> >going about it in entirely the wrong way.

> True. It is ineffective.

But there are ways that have some chance of being effective.
> The Western world has Freedom of Expression. However criticism, trying
> to improve things by pointing out what is wrong with the current
> method or situation, is culturally unacceptable. The stereotype is
> that that is an East-Asian thing. But in reality, it is very
> European/American, i.e., Western.

Brace yourself for another insight: It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

And there's no "current method or situation" here. There are different
people doing different things. The group attracts people with certain
backgrounds (especially "old"), interests, and styles, so you can see
trends, but that's all.

> The Emperor wears no cloths. I've said it. (Or: I said it, I have been
> saying it, whatever.)

"Clothes".

--
Jerry Friedman

Re: Smart

<fg5d8hl6lv0vuaf5cr88v9ml076fne7eht@4ax.com>

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
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 by: Ken Blake - Thu, 19 May 2022 19:11 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:51:04 -0700 (PDT), "bil...@shaw.ca"
<billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 6:32:05 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
>> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
>> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>>
>> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
>> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
>> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>>
>> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.
>>
>> So be it.
>
>They misunderstand you, and that's their fault? I think you're still in that phase
>where you think everyone else should worship at your shrine. Nobody else gets
>that sort of treatment. Why should you?

The treatment he should get is killfiling. Then I wouldn't have to see
his messages quoted in someone else's posts.

Re: Smart

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
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Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:37:31 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:37 UTC

19 May 2022 15:01:42 GMT: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> writes:
>>I am unlearnable (to quote the late Franz Gnadiger) on the subject of
>>English tenses and aspects. I studied, or have studied, or have been
>>studying, the rules many times, and still I just don't understand them
>>and cannot apply them correctly. So I just gave up.
>>One problem is that in English the perfect tense denotes imperfect
>>aspect: actions in the past that continue, or have continuing effects,
>>into the present and even the future. Totally devoid of any logic.
>
> /Every process/ has effects in its entire front light cone.
> So that rule is not helpful.

Right. Yet, that is a rule I have seen grammars give. Or I saw grammar
give, or have been seeing, I don't care.

> I'm also bad at choosing the right tenseses, but that's
> because I haven't learned that properly yet.
>
> What I do now:
> 1. read a textbook on tenses and work on the exercises,
> 2. learn the translation of single sentences of my native
> language with flashcards.
>
> Example for 1:
>
>|You ask people what they have done. Ask questions with /ever/:
>|1. (ride / horse?) Have you ever ridden a horse?

Did you ever ride a horse?
Have you ever ridden a horse?

Those are completely equivalent to me. I cannot apply any of the many
(often contradictory) rules given in textbooks to this.
I do know that in Dutch only "Heb je wel eens paard gereden" is
natural.
"Reed je wel eens paard" is a bad resync of an English language
children's tv series or program.

Usually, the rules are different for US Eng and UK Eng as well. It's
just to complicated and illogical. I cannot learn this.

In Interlingua, the rules are supposed to be the same as in English,
but the rules are not as strict. So now I prefer writing in that
language, because I have the freedom to write what I think sounds
best.

> "Unlearnable" might just mean that you underestimate the
> effort or are not willing to spend it.

You don't know how much time and effort I already spent on this. A
lot, I can tell you.

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