Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

The best thing about growing older is that it takes such a long time.


interests / alt.usage.english / Re: California condors

SubjectAuthor
* California condorsDavid Kleinecke
+* Re: California condorsPaul Carmichael
|`* Re: California condorsStefan Ram
| `* Re: California condorslar3ryca
|  `- Re: California condorsKen Blake
+* Re: California condorsGarrett Wollman
|+- Re: California condorsmusika
|`* Re: California condorsKen Blake
| `* Re: California condorsGarrett Wollman
|  `- Re: California condorsAthel Cornish-Bowden
+* Re: California condorslar3ryca
|`- Re: California condorsKen Blake
+* Re: California condorsAthel Cornish-Bowden
|`- Re: California condorsRuud Harmsen
+- Re: California condorsbruce bowser
+* Re: California condorsJerry Friedman
|`* Re: California condorsRoss Clark
| +* Re: California condorsJerry Friedman
| |`* Re: California condorsRoss Clark
| | `- Re: California condorsJerry Friedman
| `* Re: California condorsCDB
|  `- Re: California condorsRoss Clark
+- Re: California condorsPeter Moylan
+* Re: California condorsCDB
|`- Re: California condorsStefan Ram
`* Re: California condorsJerry Friedman
 +* Re: California condorsmusika
 |+* Re: California condorsJerry Friedman
 ||`* Re: California condorsKerr-Mudd, John
 || +* Re: California condorsAthel Cornish-Bowden
 || |`- Re: California condorsPaul Carmichael
 || +* Re: California condorsJ. J. Lodder
 || |`- Re: California condorsPeter T. Daniels
 || +- Re: California condorsKen Blake
 || `- Re: California condorsQuinn C
 |+* Re: California condorsPeter T. Daniels
 ||`* Re: California condorsmusika
 || `* Re: California condorsPeter T. Daniels
 ||  `* Re: California condorsCDB
 ||   +* Re: California condorsSnidely
 ||   |`- Re: California condorsbruce bowser
 ||   `* Re: California condorsPeter T. Daniels
 ||    `* Re: California condorsMadhu
 ||     `- Re: California condorsKen Blake
 |`- Re: California condorsbruce bowser
 `- Re: California condorsJerry Friedman

Pages:12
California condors

<d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131608&group=alt.usage.english#131608

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:a37:de0c:0:b0:69e:cd37:7646 with SMTP id h12-20020a37de0c000000b0069ecd377646mr629038qkj.449.1652899554218;
Wed, 18 May 2022 11:45:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:4045:0:b0:64e:a6ae:23b7 with SMTP id
n66-20020a254045000000b0064ea6ae23b7mr1108396yba.296.1652899554031; Wed, 18
May 2022 11:45:54 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 11:45:53 -0700 (PDT)
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=47.208.151.23; posting-account=7Xc2EwkAAABXMcQfERYamr3b-64IkBws
NNTP-Posting-Host: 47.208.151.23
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: California condors
From: dkleine...@gmail.com (David Kleinecke)
Injection-Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 18:45:54 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 1325
 by: David Kleinecke - Wed, 18 May 2022 18:45 UTC

In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully", looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".

The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me. Do other people have this idiom with the same meaning?

Are there any other word pairs like this?

Re: California condors

<pan$26687$959653b0$4a83f815$5be72c7@gmail.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131610&group=alt.usage.english#131610

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: wibbleyp...@gmail.com (Paul Carmichael)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: 18 May 2022 18:58:26 GMT
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <pan$26687$959653b0$4a83f815$5be72c7@gmail.com>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: individual.net sf5OkkQSz9PAGyXc8bQYJAmOQ47tAJ2wc0Xu3WJAoAFHCjEjI=
Cancel-Lock: sha1:XayA9oftEmnihR6ygwlKjsslVY4=
User-Agent: Pan/0.147 (Sweet Solitude; 97d1711 github.com/GNOME/pan.git)
 by: Paul Carmichael - Wed, 18 May 2022 18:58 UTC

El Wed, 18 May 2022 11:45:53 -0700, David Kleinecke escribió:

> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully",
> looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>
> The "them" variant of "those"

¿? It's not a variant, it's a pronoun.

"Them condors" is just plain wrong. Unless you are saying "I called them
condors. Was I correct?"

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Re: California condors

<t63fop$2v09$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131611&group=alt.usage.english#131611

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!news.freedyn.de!news.imp.ch!usenet.csail.mit.edu!.POSTED.hergotha.csail.mit.edu!not-for-mail
From: woll...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 19:00:41 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: none
Message-ID: <t63fop$2v09$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 19:00:41 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: usenet.csail.mit.edu; posting-host="hergotha.csail.mit.edu:207.180.169.34";
logging-data="97289"; mail-complaints-to="security@csail.mit.edu"
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
Originator: wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman)
 by: Garrett Wollman - Wed, 18 May 2022 19:00 UTC

In article <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>,
David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully",
>looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".

I would honestly take it as a typo.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

Re: California condors

<t63ga5$5mk$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131614&group=alt.usage.english#131614

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: lar...@invalid.ca (lar3ryca)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 13:09:56 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <t63ga5$5mk$1@dont-email.me>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 19:09:57 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="2f4dee4249b948478e6e7afbd1fd5083";
logging-data="5844"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/GAS4f03SfRbqViAAZdQCUPZ6uOka2kGo="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.8.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:bvv7iJbXJvtY490s3ZTOxsISPVg=
In-Reply-To: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
Content-Language: en-CA
 by: lar3ryca - Wed, 18 May 2022 19:09 UTC

On 2022-05-18 12:45, David Kleinecke wrote:
> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully", looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>
> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me. Do other people have this idiom with the same meaning?

Yes. It's quite common in informal conversation, especially when
speaking of sports teams.

"How about them Maple Leafs, eh?"

> Are there any other word pairs like this?

Re: California condors

<them-20220518202154@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131616&group=alt.usage.english#131616

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail
From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Supersedes: <them-20220518202048@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Date: 18 May 2022 19:22:21 GMT
Organization: Stefan Ram
Lines: 15
Expires: 1 Apr 2023 11:59:58 GMT
Message-ID: <them-20220518202154@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com> <pan$26687$959653b0$4a83f815$5be72c7@gmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de knbCDROhLeJTzV6ajQtDJASK97sep2efuRaILR62mjGaMo
X-Copyright: (C) Copyright 2022 Stefan Ram. All rights reserved.
Distribution through any means other than regular usenet
channels is forbidden. It is forbidden to publish this
article in the Web, to change URIs of this article into links,
and to transfer the body without this notice, but quotations
of parts in other Usenet posts are allowed.
X-No-Archive: Yes
Archive: no
X-No-Archive-Readme: "X-No-Archive" is set, because this prevents some
services to mirror the article in the web. But the article may
be kept on a Usenet archive server with only NNTP access.
X-No-Html: yes
Content-Language: en-US
Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US, it, fr-FR
 by: Stefan Ram - Wed, 18 May 2022 19:22 UTC

Supersedes: <them-20220518202048@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

>Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> writes:
>"Them condors" is just plain wrong. Unless you are saying "I called them
>condors. Was I correct?"

|Now look at them yo-yos
|that's the way you do
Dire Straits

The attributive demonstrative them as in "She likes them
apples" or "I love them shoes" can be found in Urban AAVE,
Rural AAVE, Earlier AAVE, Southern EAVE, and Northern EAV.

Re: California condors

<t63hob$h4c$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131617&group=alt.usage.english#131617

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: lar...@invalid.ca (lar3ryca)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 13:34:34 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <t63hob$h4c$1@dont-email.me>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
<pan$26687$959653b0$4a83f815$5be72c7@gmail.com>
<them-20220518202154@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 19:34:35 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="2f4dee4249b948478e6e7afbd1fd5083";
logging-data="17548"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18wVBKXuSD7arSpzMiIfnWsJDm4cjIACug="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.8.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:NOfU+KD1NX/IEYmqykKJUUQU6jM=
In-Reply-To: <them-20220518202154@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Content-Language: en-CA
 by: lar3ryca - Wed, 18 May 2022 19:34 UTC

On 2022-05-18 13:22, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Supersedes: <them-20220518202048@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
>
>> Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> writes:
>> "Them condors" is just plain wrong. Unless you are saying "I called them
>> condors. Was I correct?"
>
> |Now look at them yo-yos
> |that's the way you do
> Dire Straits
>
> The attributive demonstrative them as in "She likes them
> apples" or "I love them shoes" can be found in Urban AAVE,
> Rural AAVE, Earlier AAVE, Southern EAVE, and Northern EAV.

I had completely forgotten a phrase I have used often; "How do ya like
them apples?", which has a meaning something like "So there!", or "Put
that in your pipe and smoke it!'.

Re: California condors

<t63k4v$228$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131626&group=alt.usage.english#131626

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com (musika)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 21:15:26 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <t63k4v$228$1@dont-email.me>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
<t63fop$2v09$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>
Reply-To: musika@blueyonder.co.uk
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:15:27 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="98cf883744eeb233040c6c5022b18500";
logging-data="2120"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19rUv21Qnncm8iPP8Gw40j6"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/60.9.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:zKkKo2/yq8TvzAfULKmhA4/7OvI=
In-Reply-To: <t63fop$2v09$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>
Content-Language: en-GB
 by: musika - Wed, 18 May 2022 20:15 UTC

On 18/05/2022 20:00, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>,
> David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully",
>> looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>
> I would honestly take it as a typo.
>
Yes, he obviously meant to type "them thar condors..."

--
Ray
UK

Re: California condors

<jel2rmF1qbiU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131629&group=alt.usage.english#131629

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 22:22:12 +0200
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <jel2rmF1qbiU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: individual.net Tb6dukmCDhR7mUhNLS49NQZ2NF3TF2J6dCyB5IqiRdTHBywXvG
Cancel-Lock: sha1:ghROZLm5z/YHF7IsuGtIoZIrdSQ=
User-Agent: Unison/2.2
 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Wed, 18 May 2022 20:22 UTC

On 2022-05-18 18:45:53 +0000, David Kleinecke said:

> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully",
> looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>
> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home
> intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me. Do other people
> have this idiom with the same meaning?

Yes. It's quite common in England. It may be regional, but I think it's
more of a non-regional uneducated usage.
>
> Are there any other word pairs like this?

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: California condors

<265f8c42-7cfa-4d9c-80d8-1ffceeb9f1ddn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131631&group=alt.usage.english#131631

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:a37:4454:0:b0:69f:c339:e2dc with SMTP id r81-20020a374454000000b0069fc339e2dcmr866119qka.771.1652905664902;
Wed, 18 May 2022 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a81:2492:0:b0:2eb:250d:9cd8 with SMTP id
k140-20020a812492000000b002eb250d9cd8mr1259488ywk.238.1652905664442; Wed, 18
May 2022 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=65.88.88.252; posting-account=dz0JQQoAAAA2SfqNJpOpSErFeZa0iD4P
NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.88.88.252
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <265f8c42-7cfa-4d9c-80d8-1ffceeb9f1ddn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: California condors
From: bruce2bo...@gmail.com (bruce bowser)
Injection-Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:27:44 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 1639
 by: bruce bowser - Wed, 18 May 2022 20:27 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 2:45:56 PM UTC-4, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully", looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>
> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me. Do other people have this idiom with the same meaning?
>
> Are there any other word pairs like this?

(said in between swigs) Weez a musta' be monitorin' them thur kondirz kayirfleee?

Re: California condors

<rioa8h1v56oe0snbsk76r2vkv82d0fpcb8@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131641&group=alt.usage.english#131641

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 14:18:07 -0700
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <rioa8h1v56oe0snbsk76r2vkv82d0fpcb8@4ax.com>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com> <t63fop$2v09$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Trace: individual.net h2q4H2BRiNCbHtUvA9nGWAm+0Cifk5MCIQAueYhHoIK+0mKmM/
Cancel-Lock: sha1:IILmJVEKm2VQYhENSdtD2p9xWtg=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:18 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 19:00:41 -0000 (UTC), wollman@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>,
>David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>>In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully",
>>looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>
>I would honestly take it as a typo.

Perhaps a thinko, but I can't imagine its being a typo.

Re: California condors

<4loa8hhk6orflu9veo2i9i30pa4fo0otbv@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131642&group=alt.usage.english#131642

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.mixmin.net!news2.arglkargh.de!news.karotte.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 14:19:55 -0700
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4loa8hhk6orflu9veo2i9i30pa4fo0otbv@4ax.com>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com> <t63ga5$5mk$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Trace: individual.net psGPJ0hZwyAj7qSH2n7XZweDtWWWlPhoY514w7oO/to223Ok2t
Cancel-Lock: sha1:7eJOh2+y7JcreNnLFUB+Qurn91I=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:19 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 13:09:56 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2022-05-18 12:45, David Kleinecke wrote:
>> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully", looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>>
>> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me. Do other people have this idiom with the same meaning?
>
>Yes. It's quite common in informal conversation,

Not in my informal conversations...

>especially when
>speaking of sports teams.

....perhaps because I never have conversations about sports teams.

>"How about them Maple Leafs, eh?"
>
>> Are there any other word pairs like this?

Re: California condors

<uooa8h9r67q38lprjeh1koec24p70sd2vn@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131644&group=alt.usage.english#131644

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 14:21:17 -0700
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <uooa8h9r67q38lprjeh1koec24p70sd2vn@4ax.com>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com> <pan$26687$959653b0$4a83f815$5be72c7@gmail.com> <them-20220518202154@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de> <t63hob$h4c$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Trace: individual.net wQm5IpaeBImMRkv4Q1KCTQI6sVcjV3iFxIsh7CtRNdY4wrmOir
Cancel-Lock: sha1:TztDl9QxaRzLxiCLk6H1a8aPxKY=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:21 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 13:34:34 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2022-05-18 13:22, Stefan Ram wrote:
>> Supersedes: <them-20220518202048@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
>>
>>> Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> writes:
>>> "Them condors" is just plain wrong. Unless you are saying "I called them
>>> condors. Was I correct?"
>>
>> |Now look at them yo-yos
>> |that's the way you do
>> Dire Straits
>>
>> The attributive demonstrative them as in "She likes them
>> apples" or "I love them shoes" can be found in Urban AAVE,
>> Rural AAVE, Earlier AAVE, Southern EAVE, and Northern EAV.
>
>I had completely forgotten a phrase I have used often; "How do ya like
>them apples?", which has a meaning something like "So there!", or "Put
>that in your pipe and smoke it!'.

I'm glad you apparently never say "Put them in your pipe and smoke
it!."

Re: California condors

<fef4221f-d828-403d-b2b9-6ed1c79f1aacn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131647&group=alt.usage.english#131647

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1301:b0:2f3:af1d:aa57 with SMTP id v1-20020a05622a130100b002f3af1daa57mr1618851qtk.257.1652909972183;
Wed, 18 May 2022 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:124b:b0:64b:8730:fd06 with SMTP id
t11-20020a056902124b00b0064b8730fd06mr1608345ybu.289.1652909971905; Wed, 18
May 2022 14:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 14:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2604:cb00:1321:a000:e94d:f698:bdb8:f033;
posting-account=yXvQywkAAABYJd1Q4krD2YEQS_8xahWl
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2604:cb00:1321:a000:e94d:f698:bdb8:f033
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <fef4221f-d828-403d-b2b9-6ed1c79f1aacn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: California condors
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Injection-Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 21:39:32 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 2358
 by: Jerry Friedman - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:39 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:45:56 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully", looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>
> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me.

Depending on the social context?

> Do other people have this idiom with the same meaning?

About 90% of the people in my town. I think it's very widespread among non-
standard speakers.

I wouldn't call it an idiom. It's a variant that goes back to the Wycliffite Bible (1382),
though when modifying the subject of a verb, not till 1607 (OED).

Compare "we New Mexicans", "us New Mexicans" (non-standard as a subject),
"you Californians".

> Are there any other word pairs like this?

Isn't / ain't? All that / all's? I seen him / I saw him? Would have / Would of? (For our
friends overseas, where "of" is pronounced differently from "'ve".) My dog got run over /
My dog got ran over?

STS warning:

I'm looking over
My dead dog Rover
That I overran with the mower.

(There's more.)

--
Jerry Friedman

Re: California condors

<t63pg6$1kf$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131651&group=alt.usage.english#131651

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!news.freedyn.de!news.imp.ch!usenet.csail.mit.edu!.POSTED.hergotha.csail.mit.edu!not-for-mail
From: woll...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 21:46:46 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: none
Message-ID: <t63pg6$1kf$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com> <t63fop$2v09$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu> <rioa8h1v56oe0snbsk76r2vkv82d0fpcb8@4ax.com>
Injection-Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 21:46:46 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: usenet.csail.mit.edu; posting-host="hergotha.csail.mit.edu:207.180.169.34";
logging-data="1679"; mail-complaints-to="security@csail.mit.edu"
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
Originator: wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman)
 by: Garrett Wollman - Wed, 18 May 2022 21:46 UTC

In article <rioa8h1v56oe0snbsk76r2vkv82d0fpcb8@4ax.com>,
Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 18 May 2022 19:00:41 -0000 (UTC), wollman@bimajority.org
>(Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>
>>In article <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>,
>>David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully",
>>>looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>>
>>I would honestly take it as a typo.
>
>
>Perhaps a thinko, but I can't imagine its being a typo.

I can, easily. Production errors of that type are quite common when
typing.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

Re: California condors

<t641lq$5or$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131667&group=alt.usage.english#131667

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 12:06:12 +1200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <t641lq$5or$1@dont-email.me>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
<fef4221f-d828-403d-b2b9-6ed1c79f1aacn@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 00:06:18 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="7257f89ba8c4b9abf855e1f8321882af";
logging-data="5915"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+82isI8v1ursm26H61vrtTZX89Jc8g8IU="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/52.9.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:v3e5VGr9Ic7LUGa3lanKnifx/vk=
In-Reply-To: <fef4221f-d828-403d-b2b9-6ed1c79f1aacn@googlegroups.com>
Content-Language: en-GB
 by: Ross Clark - Thu, 19 May 2022 00:06 UTC

On 19/05/2022 9:39 a.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:45:56 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
>> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully", looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>>
>> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me.
>
> Depending on the social context?
>
>> Do other people have this idiom with the same meaning?
>
> About 90% of the people in my town. I think it's very widespread among non-
> standard speakers.
>
> I wouldn't call it an idiom. It's a variant that goes back to the Wycliffite Bible (1382),
> though when modifying the subject of a verb, not till 1607 (OED).

Hi Jerry, good to have you back.

While we're considering the history, it's worth pointing out that the
whole _they/them/their_ pronoun set were originally demonstratives in
their Scandinavian source language ("those (guys)").
Apparently there's some use of "they" as demonstrative too:

▸ a1470 T. Malory Morte Darthur (Winch. Coll. 13) (1990) I. 31 They
two knyghtes mette with kynge Idres that was nere discomfited.

a1500 (▸1422) J. Yonge tr. Secreta Secret. (Rawl.) (1898) 160 (MED)
Fore thay thre causis, I leue of that matiere.

And doesn't it seem possible that the demonstrative "them" that we see
in Wycliffe 1382 and after might owe something to the oblique plural
_þæm_ of the OE demonstrative paradigm for "that" (M se, F þæt, N seo,
Pl þa)?

> Compare "we New Mexicans", "us New Mexicans" (non-standard as a subject),
> "you Californians".
>
>> Are there any other word pairs like this?
>
> Isn't / ain't? All that / all's? I seen him / I saw him? Would have / Would of? (For our
> friends overseas, where "of" is pronounced differently from "'ve".) My dog got run over /
> My dog got ran over?
>
> STS warning:
>
> I'm looking over
> My dead dog Rover
> That I overran with the mower.
>
> (There's more.)
>

Re: California condors

<t6468b$nod$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131674&group=alt.usage.english#131674

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 11:24:27 +1000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <t6468b$nod$1@dont-email.me>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 01:24:27 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="aa1f4218d4e7196039310f6f16689793";
logging-data="24333"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+wakU1QJs80ZhpdQ8XFr9I"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; Warp 4.5; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/38.8.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:3pUYvRRKQGvk5uJSoJ3khF0ZwZM=
In-Reply-To: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
 by: Peter Moylan - Thu, 19 May 2022 01:24 UTC

On 19/05/22 04:45, David Kleinecke wrote:

> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully",
> looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>
> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home
> intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me. Do other
> people have this idiom with the same meaning?
>
> Are there any other word pairs like this?

"Looks like you still got a lot of sheep to dip."
"Nah, I done them sheep yesterday."

Common in rural Australia, but definitely considered substandard. Rather
less common in the cities.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: California condors

<a03ed9ed-ecde-45ea-9bea-56c9a00e094cn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131683&group=alt.usage.english#131683

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5c8b:0:b0:2f3:dd2f:b512 with SMTP id r11-20020ac85c8b000000b002f3dd2fb512mr2387385qta.625.1652929213237;
Wed, 18 May 2022 20:00:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a81:ac28:0:b0:2ff:3f8c:d5cf with SMTP id
k40-20020a81ac28000000b002ff3f8cd5cfmr2532355ywh.516.1652929213067; Wed, 18
May 2022 20:00:13 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:00:12 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t641lq$5or$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2604:cb00:1321:a000:159f:a0b8:b25e:7e;
posting-account=yXvQywkAAABYJd1Q4krD2YEQS_8xahWl
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2604:cb00:1321:a000:159f:a0b8:b25e:7e
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
<fef4221f-d828-403d-b2b9-6ed1c79f1aacn@googlegroups.com> <t641lq$5or$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <a03ed9ed-ecde-45ea-9bea-56c9a00e094cn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: California condors
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 03:00:13 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 3653
 by: Jerry Friedman - Thu, 19 May 2022 03:00 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 6:06:23 PM UTC-6, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 19/05/2022 9:39 a.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:45:56 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully", looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
> >>
> >> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me.
> >
> > Depending on the social context?
> >
> >> Do other people have this idiom with the same meaning?
> >
> > About 90% of the people in my town. I think it's very widespread among non-
> > standard speakers.
> >
> > I wouldn't call it an idiom. It's a variant that goes back to the Wycliffite Bible (1382),
> > though when modifying the subject of a verb, not till 1607 (OED).

> Hi Jerry, good to have you back.

Good to see you here.

> While we're considering the history, it's worth pointing out that the
> whole _they/them/their_ pronoun set were originally demonstratives in
> their Scandinavian source language ("those (guys)").
> Apparently there's some use of "they" as demonstrative too:
>
> ▸ a1470 T. Malory Morte Darthur (Winch. Coll. 13) (1990) I. 31 They
> two knyghtes mette with kynge Idres that was nere discomfited.
>
> a1500 (▸1422) J. Yonge tr. Secreta Secret. (Rawl.) (1898) 160 (MED)
> Fore thay thre causis, I leue of that matiere.

Interesting, and still in existence in some dialects. The famous example
in certain circles is something the poet Philip Levine, who was working at
a zoo, heard from a black co-worker: "They feed they lion with they sack."
Only I may be misquoting it--I can't find it on line, and I can't find the book
where I read it.

> And doesn't it seem possible that the demonstrative "them" that we see
> in Wycliffe 1382 and after might owe something to the oblique plural
> _þæm_ of the OE demonstrative paradigm for "that" (M se, F þæt, N seo,
> Pl þa)?

More interesting stuff.

> > Compare "we New Mexicans", "us New Mexicans" (non-standard as a subject),
> > "you Californians".
....

And what did you think of that?

--
Jerry Friedman

Re: California condors

<t64ftg$9c8$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131684&group=alt.usage.english#131684

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 16:09:17 +1200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <t64ftg$9c8$1@dont-email.me>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
<fef4221f-d828-403d-b2b9-6ed1c79f1aacn@googlegroups.com>
<t641lq$5or$1@dont-email.me>
<a03ed9ed-ecde-45ea-9bea-56c9a00e094cn@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 04:09:20 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="7257f89ba8c4b9abf855e1f8321882af";
logging-data="9608"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/LNkqGeLOLwqRX/5sMQYDrFsS/GGNVYfo="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/52.9.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:Zzjoi+QfGa3sPaL07KFHmryvhHc=
In-Reply-To: <a03ed9ed-ecde-45ea-9bea-56c9a00e094cn@googlegroups.com>
Content-Language: en-GB
 by: Ross Clark - Thu, 19 May 2022 04:09 UTC

On 19/05/2022 3:00 p.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 6:06:23 PM UTC-6, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>> On 19/05/2022 9:39 a.m., Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:45:56 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully", looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>>>>
>>>> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me.
>>>
>>> Depending on the social context?
>>>
>>>> Do other people have this idiom with the same meaning?
>>>
>>> About 90% of the people in my town. I think it's very widespread among non-
>>> standard speakers.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't call it an idiom. It's a variant that goes back to the Wycliffite Bible (1382),
>>> though when modifying the subject of a verb, not till 1607 (OED).
>
>> Hi Jerry, good to have you back.
>
> Good to see you here.
>
>> While we're considering the history, it's worth pointing out that the
>> whole _they/them/their_ pronoun set were originally demonstratives in
>> their Scandinavian source language ("those (guys)").
>> Apparently there's some use of "they" as demonstrative too:
>>
>> ▸ a1470 T. Malory Morte Darthur (Winch. Coll. 13) (1990) I. 31 They
>> two knyghtes mette with kynge Idres that was nere discomfited.
>>
>> a1500 (▸1422) J. Yonge tr. Secreta Secret. (Rawl.) (1898) 160 (MED)
>> Fore thay thre causis, I leue of that matiere.
>
> Interesting, and still in existence in some dialects. The famous example
> in certain circles is something the poet Philip Levine, who was working at
> a zoo, heard from a black co-worker: "They feed they lion with they sack."
> Only I may be misquoting it--I can't find it on line, and I can't find the book
> where I read it.
>
>> And doesn't it seem possible that the demonstrative "them" that we see
>> in Wycliffe 1382 and after might owe something to the oblique plural
>> _þæm_ of the OE demonstrative paradigm for "that" (M se, F þæt, N seo,
>> Pl þa)?
>
> More interesting stuff.
>
>>> Compare "we New Mexicans", "us New Mexicans" (non-standard as a subject),
>>> "you Californians".
> ...
>
> And what did you think of that?

Spot on, of course.

Re: California condors

<71ob8h1g253tkof5os47ou58ksu1jhebau@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131693&group=alt.usage.english#131693

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 08:15:00 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <71ob8h1g253tkof5os47ou58ksu1jhebau@4ax.com>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com> <jel2rmF1qbiU1@mid.individual.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="615d7d57182839a35a015a6862d224e0";
logging-data="17057"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19N6ivHju1QUj4NjUMr5na5"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:b1H15/9AGYPOV0HTZTXOJQU+DRY=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 06:15 UTC

Wed, 18 May 2022 22:22:12 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:

>On 2022-05-18 18:45:53 +0000, David Kleinecke said:
>
>> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully",
>> looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>>
>> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home
>> intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me. Do other people
>> have this idiom with the same meaning?
>
>Yes. It's quite common in England. It may be regional, but I think it's
>more of a non-regional uneducated usage.

This kinda English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wShL3lIkro
>> Are there any other word pairs like this?

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: California condors

<jem8h4F8f22U1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131701&group=alt.usage.english#131701

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 09:05:06 +0200
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <jem8h4F8f22U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com> <t63fop$2v09$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu> <rioa8h1v56oe0snbsk76r2vkv82d0fpcb8@4ax.com> <t63pg6$1kf$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: individual.net XrS6JH6T6f6/oJSpNDQmyAMYdeWuHUdOculWIRiKgY59EJ2v73
Cancel-Lock: sha1:qf7/wuerlnDczKEvimgydWvyQAU=
User-Agent: Unison/2.2
 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Thu, 19 May 2022 07:05 UTC

On 2022-05-18 21:46:46 +0000, Garrett Wollman said:

> In article <rioa8h1v56oe0snbsk76r2vkv82d0fpcb8@4ax.com>,
> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 19:00:41 -0000 (UTC), wollman@bimajority.org
>> (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>,
>>> David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully",
>>>> looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
>>>
>>> I would honestly take it as a typo.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps a thinko, but I can't imagine its being a typo.
>
> I can, easily. Production errors of that type are quite common when
> typing.

My computer is very fond of the letter l, and often puts one instead of
m. Likewise with c as a substitute space.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: California condors

<t6582r$179k$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131714&group=alt.usage.english#131714

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!aioe.org!GjGT3vKo+k06Av89T3Mk4A.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 07:01:42 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t6582r$179k$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="40244"; posting-host="GjGT3vKo+k06Av89T3Mk4A.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Content-Language: en-US
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 11:01 UTC

On 5/18/2022 2:45 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:

> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully",
> looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".

> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down home
> intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me. Do other
> people have this idiom with the same meaning?

> Are there any other word pairs like this?

Maybe not exactly the same, but "she/her" is sometimes used instead of
"it", probably by some of the same people who say "them apples". Give
'er another try, she's still flooded.

Re: California condors

<t658kj$1f84$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131715&group=alt.usage.english#131715

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!GjGT3vKo+k06Av89T3Mk4A.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 07:11:10 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t658kj$1f84$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
<fef4221f-d828-403d-b2b9-6ed1c79f1aacn@googlegroups.com>
<t641lq$5or$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="48388"; posting-host="GjGT3vKo+k06Av89T3Mk4A.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Content-Language: en-US
 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 11:11 UTC

On 5/18/2022 8:06 PM, Ross Clark wrote:
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> dklei...@gmail.com wrote:

>>> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors
>>> carefully", looked at what I had written and wondered at the
>>> "them".
>
>>> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down
>>> home intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me.

>> Depending on the social context?

>>> Do other people have this idiom with the same meaning?

>> About 90% of the people in my town. I think it's very widespread
>> among non- standard speakers.

>> I wouldn't call it an idiom. It's a variant that goes back to the
>> Wycliffite Bible (1382), though when modifying the subject of a
>> verb, not till 1607 (OED).

> Hi Jerry, good to have you back.

> While we're considering the history, it's worth pointing out that the
> whole _they/them/their_ pronoun set were originally demonstratives
> in their Scandinavian source language ("those (guys)"). Apparently
> there's some use of "they" as demonstrative too:

> ▸ a1470 T. Malory Morte Darthur (Winch. Coll. 13) (1990) I. 31
> They two knyghtes mette with kynge Idres that was nere discomfited.

> a1500 (▸1422) J. Yonge tr. Secreta Secret. (Rawl.) (1898) 160
> (MED) Fore thay thre causis, I leue of that matiere.

> And doesn't it seem possible that the demonstrative "them" that we
> see in Wycliffe 1382 and after might owe something to the oblique
> plural _þæm_ of the OE demonstrative paradigm for "that" (M se, F
> þæt, N seo, Pl þa)?

Good point, but the F is "seo" and the N is "thaet".

>> Compare "we New Mexicans", "us New Mexicans" (non-standard as a
>> subject), "you Californians".

>>> Are there any other word pairs like this?

>> Isn't / ain't? All that / all's? I seen him / I saw him? Would
>> have / Would of? (For our friends overseas, where "of" is
>> pronounced differently from "'ve".) My dog got run over / My dog
>> got ran over?

>> STS warning:

>> I'm looking over My dead dog Rover That I overran with the mower.

>> (There's more.)

Re: California condors

<she-20220519151017@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131747&group=alt.usage.english#131747

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail
From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: 19 May 2022 14:13:52 GMT
Organization: Stefan Ram
Lines: 9
Expires: 1 Apr 2023 11:59:58 GMT
Message-ID: <she-20220519151017@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com> <t6582r$179k$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de PSG9Rcs6fSlmpsKZ4UoltgQc2B1m33J8CF2P1LeePKqFtk
X-Copyright: (C) Copyright 2022 Stefan Ram. All rights reserved.
Distribution through any means other than regular usenet
channels is forbidden. It is forbidden to publish this
article in the Web, to change URIs of this article into links,
and to transfer the body without this notice, but quotations
of parts in other Usenet posts are allowed.
X-No-Archive: Yes
Archive: no
X-No-Archive-Readme: "X-No-Archive" is set, because this prevents some
services to mirror the article in the web. But the article may
be kept on a Usenet archive server with only NNTP access.
X-No-Html: yes
Content-Language: en-US
Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US, it, fr-FR
 by: Stefan Ram - Thu, 19 May 2022 14:13 UTC

CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> writes:
>Maybe not exactly the same, but "she/her" is sometimes used instead of
>"it", probably by some of the same people who say "them apples". Give
>'er another try, she's still flooded.

The use of "she" can sometimes (apart from ships or states)
also express an emotional connection.

Re: California condors

<t66cvh$u09$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131834&group=alt.usage.english#131834

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: California condors
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:31:23 +1200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <t66cvh$u09$1@dont-email.me>
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
<fef4221f-d828-403d-b2b9-6ed1c79f1aacn@googlegroups.com>
<t641lq$5or$1@dont-email.me> <t658kj$1f84$1@gioia.aioe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 21:31:29 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="7257f89ba8c4b9abf855e1f8321882af";
logging-data="30729"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18EKVvDTT5ZPKXOdFt6TadlwLuGYhqVs/0="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/52.9.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:EJOe4myjkr7SdEzD4pTkwJ5g590=
In-Reply-To: <t658kj$1f84$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Content-Language: en-GB
 by: Ross Clark - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:31 UTC

On 19/05/2022 11:11 p.m., CDB wrote:
> On 5/18/2022 8:06 PM, Ross Clark wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> dklei...@gmail.com  wrote:
>
>>>> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors
>>>> carefully", looked at what I had written and wondered at the
>>>> "them".
>>
>>>> The "them" variant of "those" has an implication of close down
>>>> home intimacy. Permissible to an Old Californiano like me.
>
>>> Depending on the social context?
>
>>>> Do other people have this idiom with the same meaning?
>
>>> About 90% of the people in my town.  I think it's very widespread
>>> among non- standard speakers.
>
>>> I wouldn't call it an idiom.  It's a variant that goes back to the
>>>  Wycliffite Bible (1382), though when modifying the subject of a
>>> verb, not till 1607 (OED).
>
>> Hi Jerry, good to have you back.
>
>> While we're considering the history, it's worth pointing out that the
>>  whole _they/them/their_ pronoun set were originally demonstratives
>> in their Scandinavian source language ("those (guys)"). Apparently
>> there's some use of "they" as demonstrative too:
>
>> ▸ a1470   T. Malory Morte Darthur (Winch. Coll. 13) (1990) I. 31
>> They two knyghtes mette with kynge Idres that was nere discomfited.
>
>> a1500  (▸1422)    J. Yonge tr. Secreta Secret. (Rawl.) (1898) 160
>> (MED) Fore thay thre causis, I leue of that matiere.
>
>> And doesn't it seem possible that the demonstrative "them" that we
>> see in Wycliffe 1382 and after might owe something to the oblique
>> plural _þæm_ of the OE demonstrative paradigm for "that" (M se, F
>> þæt, N seo, Pl þa)?
>
> Good point, but the F is "seo" and the N is "thaet".

Oops.

>
>>> Compare "we New Mexicans", "us New Mexicans" (non-standard as a
>>> subject), "you Californians".
>
>>>> Are there any other word pairs like this?
>
>>> Isn't / ain't?  All that / all's?  I seen him / I saw him?  Would
>>> have / Would of?  (For our friends overseas, where "of" is
>>> pronounced differently from "'ve".) My dog got run over / My dog
>>> got ran over?
>
>>> STS warning:
>
>>> I'm looking over My dead dog Rover That I overran with the mower.
>
>>> (There's more.)
>
>

Re: California condors

<011bc162-3d7d-4a15-a598-e97343f5a732n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131835&group=alt.usage.english#131835

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:19c2:b0:462:230:dbd8 with SMTP id j2-20020a05621419c200b004620230dbd8mr3326215qvc.114.1652996803791;
Thu, 19 May 2022 14:46:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a81:1284:0:b0:2f8:d488:cf7e with SMTP id
126-20020a811284000000b002f8d488cf7emr7062023yws.480.1652996803600; Thu, 19
May 2022 14:46:43 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 14:46:43 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2604:cb00:1321:a000:159f:a0b8:b25e:7e;
posting-account=yXvQywkAAABYJd1Q4krD2YEQS_8xahWl
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2604:cb00:1321:a000:159f:a0b8:b25e:7e
References: <d476bb66-c4ca-4ccf-bdb8-796fa24dee92n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <011bc162-3d7d-4a15-a598-e97343f5a732n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: California condors
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 21:46:43 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 1605
 by: Jerry Friedman - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:46 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:45:56 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> In a local context I wrote "We must monitor them condors carefully", looked at what I had written and wondered at the "them".
....

In case anyone's interested, this is another Yurok-related post.
The condors David is talking about are being released on the
Yurok reservation with the enthusiastic cooperation of the tribe.

--
Jerry Friedman

Pages:12
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor