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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

SubjectAuthor
* An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
| +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencespains...@gmail.com
| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|    |   |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |     `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|     `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|      +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|      |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|      | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAdam Funk
|      | | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|      |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      |  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|      |  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat
|       | ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceLewis
|       | | ||  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | | |||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceGordonD
|       | | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJoy Beeson
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|       | | ||   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRichard Heathfield
|       | | ||   | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJanet
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMack A. Damia
|       | | |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|       | |   | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |  |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAnders D. Nygaard
|       | |   |  | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |  |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|       | |   |  |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |   |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |   |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   |    ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | |   |    || +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |    || `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMadhu
|       | |   |    |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |   |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|       | |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |    |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||| `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSilvano
|       | |    ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStoat
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | |    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat

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Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<cab93df5-e575-49db-a4b8-a1bdcf7f2c82n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: bill...@shaw.ca (bil...@shaw.ca)
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 by: bil...@shaw.ca - Thu, 19 May 2022 06:15 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 1:53:21 PM UTC-7, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022, at 10:29:46, CDB posted:
> >On 5/18/2022 9:41 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> Hibou wrote:
> >>> Hibou a écrit :
> >
> >>>> But it's true that I haven't answered the question about why
> >>>> 'fine' is an adverb in this context. The exchange "How are you?"
> >>>> "Fine" is abbreviated, and in full would be "How are you doing?"
> >>>> "I am doing fine." 'Fine' qualifies 'am doing' and is therefore
> >>>> an adverb. When an American replies "Good", that is a non
> >>>> sequitur. "I am doing good" means that one is working to improve
> >>>> the world, and does not answer the question "How are you doing?"
> >
> >>> So I did make a mistake, but not about 'fine'. 'Good' here is a
> >>> noun, not an adjective.
> >
> >> Good grief.
> >
> >owls are so obsessed with categories, you'd think they were mice.
> >
> >I believe what Peter meant by "good grief" is that "good" is an
> >adjective in that phrase and also in an American response to "howya
> >doin'?": in that case, it's an adjective in adverbial use.
>
> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an interrogative adverb,
> so any good one-word answer must have adverbial force.

I think that's far more complicated than necessary. "Good grief" is Charlie Brown's
lament, in the comic strip Peanuts, when another character, or humans in general,
completely fail to understand something.

bill

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: bill...@shaw.ca (bil...@shaw.ca)
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 by: bil...@shaw.ca - Thu, 19 May 2022 06:46 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:19:42 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 21:40:42 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>
> >It's only in southern California and southern Ontario that main roads
> >get a "the". When you get to the border you're on I-5.

No, I don't think it's only in those places. I don't know in how many regions
you have driven, but every North American region where I've driven had
roads or highways called "the" something or another.

I've crossed the border between B.C. and Washington a few times. Heading
south, I was always under the impression that I was on "the" I-5.

> In this area, it's "take I-4" and "take the East-West" or "take the
> 408" (the East-West Expressway is also SR 408).
>
> Traffic reports will say "traffic is heavy on I-4" and "traffic is
> heavy on the 408".
>
That's the usage I hear as well.

I've driven in every Canadian province west of Nova Scotia, and in all
the Pacific U.S. states except Alaska. All the highways I remember
were called "the" something or another, starting with "the" Trans-Canada
Highway, also known as "the" No. 1. In Alberta and B.C., we have also
have "the" Yellowhead, "the" No. 5, "the" Coquihalla, "the" 99 (formerly
known as "the" Highway of Death, "the" I-5, "the" Icefields Parkway, etc.

bill

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<20220519075220.d56e11ea76baf1fe06f78522@127.0.0.1>

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 07:52:20 +0100
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Thu, 19 May 2022 06:52 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:01:36 +0100
Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 18 May 2022, at 09:33:05, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
> >"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 4:17:18 PM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> >> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > > > are willing to laugh at themselves, and, having read Shute's works,
> >> > > > perhaps some of his fondness for the place has rubbed off.
> >> > > Of course. Australia has never felt an urge to throw off the yoke of
> >> > > British imperialism.
> >> >
> >> > At least they haven't (so far) started out on their own imperialism.
> >>
> [big gap]
> >
> >> Someone seems not to have kept up with South Pacific current events.
> >
> >Fair enough. We seem to focus on the Ukraine & Boris, though Strange
> >Going Ons in the US intrude,
>
> A recent puzzle was why the BBC promoted to its No. 1 news item some
> weeks ago a leaked draft judgement of the American Supreme Court on the
> matter of whether abortion was covered by their constitution. I mean -
> as a British news headline, that's got everything wrong with it.
> Foreign, underhand provenance, irrelevant to British interests. Would
> they report a leaked draft ruling of Iranian mullahs on the same subject
> in the Iranian constitution? No, of course they wouldn't.

Indeed.
>
> >I think mostly because Brit reporters would like a job in the US.
> >
> You old cynic.

I prefer 'curmudgeon'.

(Exits stage left, grumping to self).

> --
> Paul

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<jem814F8bq7U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Thu, 19 May 2022 06:56 UTC

On 2022-05-18 20:45:24 +0000, Snidely said:

> With a quizzical look, charles observed:
>> In article <stkok8ncvo9y.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>,
>> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:23:28 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-05-17 05:32:40 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>> Tue, 17 May 2022 10:57:09 +1000: Peter Moylan
>>>>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>>>>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a photo of my
>>>>>>> friends Vera, Chook,
>>>>>> It's Chuck.
>>>>>
>>>>> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name was written?
>>>>
>>>> You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original that PM
>>>> was comparing his list of friend's names to?
>>
>>> Since that "original" wasn't quoted, it was easy to get confused what PM
>>> was talking about. I've heard the song long ago (although not quite 64
>>> years), but didn't remember such details.
>>
>>> Looking at the lyrics now, I'm actually confused as to what those names
>>> represent. The grandchildren? It's unclear, and apparently, it wasn't
>>> clear to the writers.
>>
>>> My 64th isn't so far away, so I could start planning, but I've known
>>> only one Vera in my life, back in high school, no Chuck and can't come
>>> up with a memory of a Dave or David on the spot, although it feels there
>>> should've been at least one.
>>
>> I've only knwn one Vera, but it ws probably a common watime name after Vera
>> Lyn - the singer. I have a cousin David and kow at leat 3 others.
>
> In AUE terms, many of us remember The Omrud.

He's been here fairly recently -- within the past six months, I would guess.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 07:57:58 +0100
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Thu, 19 May 2022 06:57 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:50:38 +0200
Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

> Wed, 18 May 2022 13:55:25 -0700: Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
> scribeva:
>
> >On Wednesday, Ruud Harmsen pointed out that ...
> >> Wed, 18 May 2022 11:06:01 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
> >> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
> >
> >>>>> Peter was talking about his friends. If you were talking about
> >>>>> something else, why not say so?
> >>>>
> >>>> I said so, I mentioned the Beatles song repeatedly,
> >>>
> >>> Only after you had made the silly comment about Peter's friends.
> >>
> >> I have never ever made any comment about Peter Moylan's friends. How
> >> could I? I don't know them, I don't even know him.
> >>
> >> It was a misunderstanding of the stoning mobs here, as I have
> >> explained several times already.
> >
> >No, it was YOUR misunderstanding. It was clear that Peter was talking
> >about HIS friends
>
> He was. But I wasn't. And the names might have been fictional. Or
> slightly changed.
>
> >(clear to me, even though I don't know those friends
> >and only know Peter through his postings) and the coincidence of their
> >having names which fit the lyrics.
>
> Be that as it may, the point is that I was harshly attacked for what
> in reality was a minor issue, only because I am considered an
> outsider, not part of the group. Had I been part of the incrowd, noone
> would have minded. THAT is the issue, with which I take issue.

Better take that up with the Committee.
>

Harsh? I dunno but committing mistakes and getting flak for it is standard procedure around here. Doesn't seem to change some poster(s?), they can't get enough of it.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Thu, 19 May 2022 07:01 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 23:20:13 +0200
"Anders D. Nygaard" <news2012adn@gmail.com> wrote:

> Den 18-05-2022 kl. 17:47 skrev CDB:
> > On 5/18/2022 10:23 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> CDB wrote:
> >>> [...]
> >>> -- I always wanted to be Charlie, but nooo.
> >
> >> We can call you Charlie if you want.
> >
> > Thanks, but you're too late.  Charlie, who was my uncle, is now my
> > nephew, and I am often mistaken for a business district.
>
> I thought Bob's your uncle?
>
Stop being so genderist.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Thu, 19 May 2022 07:01 UTC

On 2022-05-19 04:19:35 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

> On Wed, 18 May 2022 21:40:42 -0500, msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>
>> "Larry" (copyedited):
>>>>> ...He had our address, but was wondering how he could find out office.
>>>>> I told him to get onto I5 and when he got to the cross-street one
>>>>> block from the T-junction, to make a left turn, and drive one block.
>>
>>> At the border, the I-5 becomes Hwy 99.
>>
>> It's only in southern California and southern Ontario that main roads
>> get a "the". When you get to the border you're on I-5.
>
> In this area, it's "take I-4" and "take the East-West" or "take the
> 408" (the East-West Expressway is also SR 408).
>
> Traffic reports will say "traffic is heavy on I-4" and "traffic is
> heavy on the 408".

Roads in the UK have a "the". "To get from London to Carlisle, take the
M1 to the M45 junction, then the M45 to the M6, and continue to
Carlisle." It's the same for lesser roads, like the A38 etc.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 10:37:11 +0100
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 by: Adam Funk - Thu, 19 May 2022 09:37 UTC

On 2022-05-18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:38:23 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 18-May-22 7:09, Hibou wrote:
>> > Le 17/05/2022 à 16:47, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> In reply to Hibou
>
>> >> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.
>>
>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley Girl",
>> not a senior citizen in NJ?
>
> So Americanisms are another thing you're not up on. It is not pronounced
> as an initialism; it is simply "oh, my God!" expressing incredulity.

I have heard (young) people say "oh em gee".

--
In general, I find that calligraphers are just about the nicest people
I've ever met. ---Donald Knuth

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Adam Funk - Thu, 19 May 2022 09:39 UTC

On 2022-05-18, charles wrote:

> In article <20220518094017.3e73c545968f024af53dfba6@127.0.0.1>, "Kerr-Mudd,
> John" <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 23:09:01 -0700 (PDT) "bil...@shaw.ca"
>> <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> > On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:57:03 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> > > On 16/05/22 05:02, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> > > > On Sun, 15 May 2022, at 08:55:00, Ken Blake posted:
>> > > >> You are correct. In AmE a "subway" is what BrE calls "tube" or
>> > > >> "underground."
>> > > >
>> > > > That is why my wife and I didn't get lunch in Anaheim, a suburb of
>> > > > Los Angeles, after a business meeting. We were told we could get it
>> > > > at a subway, which was [in a given direction]. We couldn't find
>> > > > the subway. In the end, we gave up, and found a fast sandwich
>> > > > place instead.
>> > > Unfamiliar terminology can be a real trap for travellers.
>> > >
>> > > I was once having lunch somewhere in Califormia, and realised that I
>> > > had forgotten how to get back to the SF Bay area, so I asked how to
>> > > get there. Somebody said "Take the 5" (or it might have been a
>> > > different number), and I didn't have a clue what they meant. Luckily
>> > > I got a better answer when I rephrased my question as "Where can I
>> > > find a freeway entrance?"
>> >
>> > The first time I drove in the U.S. was in the late 1970s, during
>> > Menachem Begin's presidency of Israel. The first couple of times I
>> > drove on the I-5 and other freeways, I kept noticing signs that said
>> > "Begin Freeway", and I wondered why the guy was that popular in the
>> > Pacific Northwest. I eventually worked it out.
>> >
>> In Germany 'Ausfahrt' seems a very popular village, it's signposted from
>> all major roads.
>
> probably twinned with "Loose Chippings" in the UK

Totally plausible, probably near Nether Chippings & Upper Chippings.

--
Next thing that I did was tap out Morse code
With a wooden nickel on the receiver on the phone.
Before I could complete it, I was quickly overtaken
By the angry spirits of Ronald and Nancy Reagan

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: h.i...@b.ou (Hibou)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 11:36:17 +0100
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 by: Hibou - Thu, 19 May 2022 10:36 UTC

Le 19/05/2022 à 10:37, Adam Funk a écrit :
> On 2022-05-18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> [...]
>>
>>>>> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.
>>>
>>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley Girl",
>>> not a senior citizen in NJ?
>>
>> So Americanisms are another thing you're not up on. It is not pronounced
>> as an initialism; it is simply "oh, my God!" expressing incredulity.
>
> I have heard (young) people say "oh em gee".

The response from unbelievers to "OMG" could be "OYG?" (Oh your god?),
to be pronounced as one pleases. I suggest as a word: Oyg.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 07:36:24 -0400
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 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 11:36 UTC

On 5/18/2022 7:31 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> writes:
>> it classifies "how" as an adverb, which I think is
>> wrong.
>
> If a grammar classifies "how" as a, say, "D7 word", the
> correctness of this depends on what else the grammar says
> about "D7 words" and whether this correctly describes a
> large part of English speech and texts.
>
> I think to understand the classification of "how" as an
> adverb, one must define "adverb" quite formally as a word
> that is directly subordinate to the verb of its clause and
> is not a subject nor an object.
>
> "How is she?". The verb is "is", "she" is the subject and
> then, there is "how". "How" is not subordinate to "she",
> "how" is directly subordinate to "is", but not as an object.
> So some people call it an "adverb".
>
> "How far y'all going?". Here "how" is directly subordinate
> to "far", modifying it. "Far" is an adjective, so a word
> modifying an adjective must be an adverb.

That "far" looks like an adverb to me, modifying

> The preceding two paragraphs are but one possibility for a
> grammar. Other grammars are well possible where "how" is
> /not/ called "adverb".

> The BNC is wordclass-tagged using a set of 57 tags (known as
> C5) which some refer to as the "BNC Basic Tagset". The class
> of "how" in the BNC tagset is "AVQ" "Wh-adverb (e.g. when,
> where, how, why, wherever)".

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 07:40:18 -0400
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 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 11:40 UTC

On 5/18/2022 7:31 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> writes:

>> it classifies "how" as an adverb, which I think is wrong.

> If a grammar classifies "how" as a, say, "D7 word", the correctness
> of this depends on what else the grammar says about "D7 words" and
> whether this correctly describes a large part of English speech and
> texts.

> I think to understand the classification of "how" as an adverb, one
> must define "adverb" quite formally as a word that is directly
> subordinate to the verb of its clause and is not a subject nor an
> object.

> "How is she?". The verb is "is", "she" is the subject and then, there
> is "how". "How" is not subordinate to "she", "how" is directly
> subordinate to "is", but not as an object. So some people call it an
> "adverb".

> "How far y'all going?". Here "how" is directly subordinate to "far",
> modifying it. "Far" is an adjective, so a word modifying an adjective
> must be an adverb. The preceding two paragraphs are but one
> possibility for a grammar. Other grammars are well possible where
> "how" is /not/ called "adverb".

That "far" looks like an adverb to me. It modifies "[are] going", no?

> The BNC is wordclass-tagged using a set of 57 tags (known as C5)
> which some refer to as the "BNC Basic Tagset". The class of "how" in
> the BNC tagset is "AVQ" "Wh-adverb (e.g. when, where, how, why,
> wherever)".

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 07:43:38 -0400
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 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 11:43 UTC

On 5/18/2022 4:47 PM, Paul Wolff wrote:
> CDB posted:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> Hibou wrote:
>>>> Hibou a écrit :

>>>>> But it's true that I haven't answered the question about why
>>>>> 'fine' is an adverb in this context. The exchange "How are
>>>>> you?" "Fine" is abbreviated, and in full would be "How are
>>>>> you doing?" "I am doing fine." 'Fine' qualifies 'am doing'
>>>>> and is therefore an adverb. When an American replies "Good",
>>>>> that is a non sequitur. "I am doing good" means that one is
>>>>> working to improve the world, and does not answer the
>>>>> question "How are you doing?"

>>>> So I did make a mistake, but not about 'fine'. 'Good' here is
>>>> a noun, not an adjective.

>>> Good grief.

>> owls are so obsessed with categories, you'd think they were mice.

>> I believe what Peter meant by "good grief" is that "good" is an
>> adjective in that phrase and also in an American response to
>> "howya doin'?": in that case, it's an adjective in adverbial use.

> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an interrogative
> adverb, so any good one-word answer must have adverbial force.

Exactly how I came to my conclusion, except that I said "use" instead of
the admittedly more elegant "force".

--
Sometimes I just can't get with it.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Thu, 19 May 2022 11:37 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 10:39:18 +0100
Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> On 2022-05-18, charles wrote:
>
> > In article <20220518094017.3e73c545968f024af53dfba6@127.0.0.1>, "Kerr-Mudd,
> > John" <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
[]
> >> In Germany 'Ausfahrt' seems a very popular village, it's signposted from
> >> all major roads.
> >
> > probably twinned with "Loose Chippings" in the UK
>
> Totally plausible, probably near Nether Chippings & Upper Chippings.
>
>
>
Pagwell has quite a lot of villages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Branestawm
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 08:00:46 -0400
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 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 12:00 UTC

On 5/18/2022 4:13 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> Hibou wrote>>> Peter T. Daniels a écrit:

>> In reply to Hibou

>>>> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.

>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley
>> Girl", not a senior citizen in NJ?

> So Americanisms are another thing you're not up on. It is not
> pronounced as an initialism; it is simply "oh, my God!" expressing
> incredulity.

There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said it as an
intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be pleased to learn that I
have had no success in my search for a Youtube clip of her.

> If you hadn't thoroughly scrubbed the context, you would have seen
> that it was a reaction to the suggestion that the Right to Bear Arms
> was invented in connection with the "Wild West."

I used to wish Bear Spray were legal, on camping trips. All I was Armed
in the tent was my little hatchet.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 08:11:28 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 12:11 UTC

On 5/18/2022 4:45 PM, Snidely wrote:
> charles observed:
>> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels:
>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>> Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:

>>>>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a
>>>>>>> photo of my friends Vera, Chook,
>>>>>> It's Chuck.

>>>>> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name
>>>>> was written?

>>>> You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original
>>>> that PM was comparing his list of friend's names to?

>>> Since that "original" wasn't quoted, it was easy to get confused
>>> what PM was talking about. I've heard the song long ago (although
>>> not quite 64 years), but didn't remember such details.

>>> Looking at the lyrics now, I'm actually confused as to what those
>>> names represent. The grandchildren? It's unclear, and apparently,
>>> it wasn't clear to the writers.

>>> My 64th isn't so far away, so I could start planning, but I've
>>> known only one Vera in my life, back in high school, no Chuck and
>>> can't come up with a memory of a Dave or David on the spot,
>>> although it feels there should've been at least one.

>> I've only knwn one Vera, but it ws probably a common watime name
>> after Vera Lyn - the singer.

And who can forget the beautiful Vera Hruba Ralston?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whslTp-Oe7g

> I have a cousin David and kow at leat 3 others.

> In AUE terms, many of us remember The Omrud.

And the late Dave Hatunen.

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 by: Tony Cooper - Thu, 19 May 2022 12:16 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 10:37:11 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2022-05-18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:38:23 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>> On 18-May-22 7:09, Hibou wrote:
>>> > Le 17/05/2022 à 16:47, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>> In reply to Hibou
>>
>>> >> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.
>>>
>>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley Girl",
>>> not a senior citizen in NJ?
>>
>> So Americanisms are another thing you're not up on. It is not pronounced
>> as an initialism; it is simply "oh, my God!" expressing incredulity.
>
>I have heard (young) people say "oh em gee".

Last night, watching a TV program, two different women said "oh em
gee". The program is a Canadian production set in Toronto.

They were mothers at a party for one mother's child's first birthday.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 08:22:02 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 12:22 UTC

On 5/19/2022 1:50 AM, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> scribeva:
>> Ruud Harmsen pointed out that ...
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:

>>>>>> Peter was talking about his friends. If you were talking
>>>>>> about something else, why not say so?

>>>>> I said so, I mentioned the Beatles song repeatedly,

>>>> Only after you had made the silly comment about Peter's
>>>> friends.

>>> I have never ever made any comment about Peter Moylan's friends.
>>> How could I? I don't know them, I don't even know him.

>>> It was a misunderstanding of the stoning mobs here, as I have
>>> explained several times already.

>> No, it was YOUR misunderstanding. It was clear that Peter was
>> talking about HIS friends
>
> He was. But I wasn't. And the names might have been fictional. Or
> slightly changed.

>> (clear to me, even though I don't know those friends and only know
>> Peter through his postings) and the coincidence of their having
>> names which fit the lyrics.

> Be that as it may, the point is that I was harshly attacked for what
> in reality was a minor issue, only because I am considered an
> outsider, not part of the group. Had I been part of the incrowd,
> noone would have minded. THAT is the issue, with which I take issue.

That is simply not true. Consider PTD: he has been here forever, it
seems, and people still react negatively to his outrageousnesses. Bad
reactions to yours will continue until you learn better, or everyone
killfiles you.

Listen to Jerry's advice. There is no one here who dislikes him.

[talktalk, some of it ironical]

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t65d9u$1h3q$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 08:30:50 -0400
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 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 12:30 UTC

On 5/18/2022 5:20 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> CDB:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> CDB wrote:

>>>> [...] -- I always wanted to be Charlie, but nooo.

>>> We can call you Charlie if you want.

>> Thanks, but you're too late. Charlie, who was my uncle, is now my
>> nephew, and I am often mistaken for a business district.

> I thought Bob's your uncle?

I'm not that copacetic.

--
Or likeable. Tsk; sequence of tenses.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 08:35:35 -0400
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 by: CDB - Thu, 19 May 2022 12:35 UTC

On 5/19/2022 3:01 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> "Anders D. Nygaard" <news2012adn@gmail.com> wrote:
>> CDB:
>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> CDB wrote:

>>>>> [...] -- I always wanted to be Charlie, but nooo.

>>>> We can call you Charlie if you want.

>>> Thanks, but you're too late. Charlie, who was my uncle, is now
>>> my nephew, and I am often mistaken for a business district.

>> I thought Bob's your uncle?

> Stop being so genderist.

Ooh, a new word needed! Nauncx? Auntyeme?

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Quinn C - Thu, 19 May 2022 13:19 UTC

* CDB:

> On 5/18/2022 4:45 PM, Snidely wrote:
>> charles observed:
>>> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>> Peter T. Daniels:
>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>>> Ruud Harmsen said:
>>>>>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>
>>>>>>>> I missed an opportunity ten years ago. I wanted to get a
>>>>>>>> photo of my friends Vera, Chook,
>>>>>>> It's Chuck.
>
>>>>>> You think you know better than Peter how his friend's name
>>>>>> was written?
>
>>>>> You couldn't figure out that he was referring to the original
>>>>> that PM was comparing his list of friend's names to?
>
>>>> Since that "original" wasn't quoted, it was easy to get confused
>>>> what PM was talking about. I've heard the song long ago (although
>>>> not quite 64 years), but didn't remember such details.
>
>>>> Looking at the lyrics now, I'm actually confused as to what those
>>>> names represent. The grandchildren? It's unclear, and apparently,
>>>> it wasn't clear to the writers.
>
>>>> My 64th isn't so far away, so I could start planning, but I've
>>>> known only one Vera in my life, back in high school, no Chuck and
>>>> can't come up with a memory of a Dave or David on the spot,
>>>> although it feels there should've been at least one.
>
>>> I've only knwn one Vera, but it ws probably a common watime name
>>> after Vera Lyn - the singer.
>
> And who can forget the beautiful Vera Hruba Ralston?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whslTp-Oe7g

Not me, since I never knew her in the first place.

| Reportedly only 2 of her 20 films made money.

There's no shortage of famous German Veras, the first that comes to mind
may also be known beyond Germany, generally known as Veruschka, "the
first German supermodel".

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veruschka_von_Lehndorff>

--
I'm a character actor - which they call actors who are not gorgeous,
or young.
-- Saul Rubinek

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: lispamat...@crommatograph.info (Quinn C)
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Quinn C - Thu, 19 May 2022 13:21 UTC

* CDB:

> On 5/19/2022 3:01 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> "Anders D. Nygaard" <news2012adn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> CDB:
>>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>> CDB wrote:
>
>>>>>> [...] -- I always wanted to be Charlie, but nooo.
>
>>>>> We can call you Charlie if you want.
>
>>>> Thanks, but you're too late. Charlie, who was my uncle, is now
>>>> my nephew, and I am often mistaken for a business district.
>
>>> I thought Bob's your uncle?
>
>> Stop being so genderist.
>
> Ooh, a new word needed! Nauncx? Auntyeme?

Auncle, or Pibling - parent's sibling, and parallel to nibling.

--
....an explanatory principle - like "gravity" or "instinct" -
really explains nothing. It's a sort of conventional agreement
between scientists to stop trying to explain things at a
certain point. -- Gregory Bateson

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<2aa5572e-c02e-49cc-a785-8a0396500d66n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 19 May 2022 13:31 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 4:53:21 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022, at 10:29:46, CDB posted:
> >On 5/18/2022 9:41 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> Hibou wrote:
> >>> Hibou a écrit :

> >>>> But it's true that I haven't answered the question about why
> >>>> 'fine' is an adverb in this context. The exchange "How are you?"
> >>>> "Fine" is abbreviated, and in full would be "How are you doing?"
> >>>> "I am doing fine." 'Fine' qualifies 'am doing' and is therefore
> >>>> an adverb. When an American replies "Good", that is a non
> >>>> sequitur. "I am doing good" means that one is working to improve
> >>>> the world, and does not answer the question "How are you doing?"
> >>> So I did make a mistake, but not about 'fine'. 'Good' here is a
> >>> noun, not an adjective.
> >> Good grief.
> >owls are so obsessed with categories, you'd think they were mice.
> >I believe what Peter meant by "good grief" is that "good" is an
> >adjective in that phrase and also in an American response to "howya
> >doin'?": in that case, it's an adjective in adverbial use.
>
> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an interrogative adverb,
> so any good one-word answer must have adverbial force.

Good grief.

"How are you?" "Poorly." That's considered dialectal/nonstandard.

"How's the tea?" "Tepidly."

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 19 May 2022 13:34 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 5:13:22 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022, at 09:33:05, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
> >"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 4:17:18 PM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> >> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >> > > > are willing to laugh at themselves, and, having read Shute's works,
> >> > > > perhaps some of his fondness for the place has rubbed off.
> >> > > Of course. Australia has never felt an urge to throw off the yoke of
> >> > > British imperialism.
> >> > At least they haven't (so far) started out on their own imperialism.
> [big gap]
> >> Someone seems not to have kept up with South Pacific current events.
> >Fair enough. We seem to focus on the Ukraine & Boris, though Strange
> >Going Ons in the US intrude,
>
> A recent puzzle was why the BBC promoted to its No. 1 news item some
> weeks ago a leaked draft judgement of the American Supreme Court on the
> matter of whether abortion was covered by their constitution. I mean -
> as a British news headline, that's got everything wrong with it.
> Foreign, underhand provenance, irrelevant to British interests. Would
> they report a leaked draft ruling of Iranian mullahs on the same subject
> in the Iranian constitution? No, of course they wouldn't.

Could it have anything to do with public opinion?

Could it have anything to do with freedom of expression?

Could it be that nothing like it happened in the previous 232 years?

> >I think mostly because Brit reporters would like a job in the US.
>
> You old cynic.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 19 May 2022 13:37 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 5:53:21 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 22:01:36 +0100, Paul Wolff
> <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> >On Wed, 18 May 2022, at 09:33:05, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
> >>"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 4:17:18 PM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> >>> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >>> > > > are willing to laugh at themselves, and, having read Shute's works,
> >>> > > > perhaps some of his fondness for the place has rubbed off.
> >>> > > Of course. Australia has never felt an urge to throw off the yoke of
> >>> > > British imperialism.
> >>> > At least they haven't (so far) started out on their own imperialism.
> >[big gap]
> >>> Someone seems not to have kept up with South Pacific current events.
> >>Fair enough. We seem to focus on the Ukraine & Boris, though Strange
> >>Going Ons in the US intrude,
> >A recent puzzle was why the BBC promoted to its No. 1 news item some
> >weeks ago a leaked draft judgement of the American Supreme Court on the
> >matter of whether abortion was covered by their constitution. I mean -
> >as a British news headline, that's got everything wrong with it.
> >Foreign, underhand provenance, irrelevant to British interests. Would
> >they report a leaked draft ruling of Iranian mullahs on the same subject
> >in the Iranian constitution? No, of course they wouldn't.
> >>I think mostly because Brit reporters would like a job in the US.
> >>
> >You old cynic.
>
> There is another way of looking at this. Possibly the BBC is tired of
> stories about the "Partygate" leaks and wants to inform the British
> public that there are leaks in Washington, too, and about subjects
> that not nearly so much fun.

And maybe a teensy bit more important.

Would it be news if Boris's mistress had an abortion?

> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/22/leak-confirms-partygate-questionnaire-includes-police-caution

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