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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

SubjectAuthor
* An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
| +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencespains...@gmail.com
| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|    |   |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |     `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|     `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|      +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|      |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|      | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAdam Funk
|      | | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|      |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      |  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|      |  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat
|       | ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceLewis
|       | | ||  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | | |||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceGordonD
|       | | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJoy Beeson
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|       | | ||   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRichard Heathfield
|       | | ||   | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJanet
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMack A. Damia
|       | | |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|       | |   | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |  |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAnders D. Nygaard
|       | |   |  | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |  |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|       | |   |  |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |   |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |   |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   |    ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | |   |    || +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |    || `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMadhu
|       | |   |    |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |   |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|       | |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |    |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||| `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSilvano
|       | |    ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStoat
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | |    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat

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Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<ii8d8h966hp7pn7t2m40j14u20osaadt5u@4ax.com>

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 16:15:04 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:15 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:31:22 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:27:36 -0400, Tony Cooper
><tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:23:36 +0530, Madhu <enometh@meer.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>* "Peter T. Daniels" <5cebf1ad-6f53-4d1d-a3d2-6d478d000ee9n @googlegroups.com> :
>>>Wrote on Wed, 18 May 2022 13:13:52 -0700 (PDT):
>>>
>>>> If you hadn't thoroughly scrubbed the context, you would have seen
>>>> that it was a reaction to the suggestion that the Right to Bear Arms
>>>> was invented in connection with the "Wild West."
>>>
>>>(For reference Hibou's post was message if <t5vjr0$1abd$1 @gioia.aioe.org> )
>>>
>>>I thought[1] the right to bear arms was a british thing, from "armorial
>>>bearings", and coat of arms being associated with the weaponry. The
>>>democratisation process in america meant that the the right to bear arms
>>>was not restricted to the authorised herarldry
>>
>>The phrase comes from the Second Amendment to the United States
>>Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
>>security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
>>Arms, shall not be infringed."
>>
>>We refer to the Amendments as the Bill of Rights.
>
>
>
>I'm sure you know it, but for anyone here doesn't, it's only the
>*first ten* amendments that are known as "the bill of Rights."

Yes, I did know that, and it has been pointed out here a few times. I
just wasn't thinking about all of the Amendments when I wrote that.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<2CxhK.117246$F4h.88228@fx07.ams1>

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From: not...@home.com (Sam Plusnet)
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 by: Sam Plusnet - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:18 UTC

On 19-May-22 15:57, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:00:55 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
>>> On 5/18/2022 4:13 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>>> Hibou wrote>>> Peter T. Daniels a écrit:
>>>
>>>>> In reply to Hibou
>>>>>>> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.
>>>
>>>>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley
>>>>> Girl", not a senior citizen in NJ?
>>>
>>>> So Americanisms are another thing you're not up on. It is not
>>>> pronounced as an initialism; it is simply "oh, my God!" expressing
>>>> incredulity.
>>>
>>> There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said it as an
>>> intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be pleased to learn that I
>>> have had no success in my search for a Youtube clip of her.
>>
>> Is that kaff or kaffay?
>
> "kaffay". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfVCQjLYek
>
> Set in Weston-super-Mare, and a quite watchable series, but cancelled
> after Series 2 in 2013. I think it was shown by our local PBS
> station in 2019 or 2020. British shows often take the slow boat to
> the US.
>

I haven't been to Weston for some time, so I googled to refresh the memory.

Google offers answers to questions you haven't asked (and almost
certainly would never have asked).
One of these said:

"Is Weston-super-Mare rough?"

"Weston-Super-Mare is the second most dangerous major town in Somerset"

But if you follow the link, it will also tell you that Weston is:

"the 779th most dangerous location out of all towns, cities, and
villages [in the UK]."

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:18:55 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:18 UTC

Thu, 19 May 2022 11:22:18 -0400: Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com>
scribeva:

>On Thu, 19 May 2022 08:22:02 -0400, CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 5/19/2022 1:50 AM, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> scribeva:
>>>> Ruud Harmsen pointed out that ...
>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>
>>>>>>>> Peter was talking about his friends. If you were talking
>>>>>>>> about something else, why not say so?
>>
>>>>>>> I said so, I mentioned the Beatles song repeatedly,
>>
>>>>>> Only after you had made the silly comment about Peter's
>>>>>> friends.
>>
>>>>> I have never ever made any comment about Peter Moylan's friends.
>>>>> How could I? I don't know them, I don't even know him.
>>
>>>>> It was a misunderstanding of the stoning mobs here, as I have
>>>>> explained several times already.
>>
>>>> No, it was YOUR misunderstanding. It was clear that Peter was
>>>> talking about HIS friends
>>>
>>> He was. But I wasn't. And the names might have been fictional. Or
>>> slightly changed.
>>
>>>> (clear to me, even though I don't know those friends and only know
>>>> Peter through his postings) and the coincidence of their having
>>>> names which fit the lyrics.
>>
>>> Be that as it may, the point is that I was harshly attacked for what
>>> in reality was a minor issue, only because I am considered an
>>> outsider, not part of the group. Had I been part of the incrowd,
>>> noone would have minded. THAT is the issue, with which I take issue.
>>
>>That is simply not true. Consider PTD: he has been here forever, it
>>seems, and people still react negatively to his outrageousnesses. Bad
>>reactions to yours will continue until you learn better, or everyone
>>killfiles you.
>>
>
>I can't recall if I've ever "attacked" Ruud, but - if I have - it was
>an attack on something he wrote, not an attack on a newbie.
>
>To me, this is a classic case of someone who doesn't want to see that
>the source of a problem is what that person said or did and not who
>said or did it. It's the "You are against me because I'm..." fill in:
>a newbie, homosexual, transgender, black, a woman, a man, a foreigner,
>etc.

Because I'm not considered a regular of this group. Yes, that is the
only reason. That people consistently don't want to see that, and deny
that, is part of the same mechanism.

If I'd post what I posted under a different name, the reactions would
be quite different.

>This perpetural whine of "I'm a victim" is getting old. That's an
>"attack" based on what has been written by Ruud, not an "attack" based
>on how long he's been posting here.

Just use arguments. Disagree with me all you want. I'll accept that,
but will provide counter arguments. But it doesn't happen. All those
subjects have now become undiscussable. Because of the automatic and
evolutionary inevitable ad hominem attacks.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 16:19:30 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:19 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 21:00:27 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 19-May-22 5:27, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> The phrase comes from the Second Amendment to the United States
>> Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
>> security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
>> Arms, shall not be infringed."
>
>Well if it's bear arms you want, why not stick to some bells and a
>pepper spray?

I remember quizzing my daughter who was preparing for a high school
test on the Constitution and the Amendments.

She want to know why people had to be protected from being tangled up
in fringes.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:21:32 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:21 UTC

Thu, 19 May 2022 11:22:18 -0400: Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com>
scribeva:
>This perpetural whine of "I'm a victim" is getting old. That's an
>"attack" based on what has been written by Ruud, not an "attack" based
>on how long he's been posting here.

I'm not a victim, because I am leading a happy life, totally
independent of what happens in this group.

I'm calling attention to a general mechanism in human nature, hoping
awareness will make life easier on all those other victims, millions
of them, who are not as fortunate as I am.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:30:15 +0200
Organization: De Ster
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:30 UTC

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> On 19-May-22 5:27, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > The phrase comes from the Second Amendment to the United States
> > Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
> > security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
> > Arms, shall not be infringed."
>
> Well if it's bear arms you want, why not stick to some bells and a
> pepper spray?

Restricting it to what the founders knew about would also be fine.
(so muzzle loading black powder muskets and pistols)

Swords allowed too,

Jan

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 16:32:59 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:32 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 21:18:05 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 19-May-22 15:57, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:00:55 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
>>>> On 5/18/2022 4:13 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>>>> Hibou wrote>>> Peter T. Daniels a écrit:
>>>>
>>>>>> In reply to Hibou
>>>>>>>> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.
>>>>
>>>>>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley
>>>>>> Girl", not a senior citizen in NJ?
>>>>
>>>>> So Americanisms are another thing you're not up on. It is not
>>>>> pronounced as an initialism; it is simply "oh, my God!" expressing
>>>>> incredulity.
>>>>
>>>> There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said it as an
>>>> intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be pleased to learn that I
>>>> have had no success in my search for a Youtube clip of her.
>>>
>>> Is that kaff or kaffay?
>>
>> "kaffay". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfVCQjLYek
>>
>> Set in Weston-super-Mare, and a quite watchable series, but cancelled
>> after Series 2 in 2013. I think it was shown by our local PBS
>> station in 2019 or 2020. British shows often take the slow boat to
>> the US.
>>
>
>I haven't been to Weston for some time, so I googled to refresh the memory.
>
>Google offers answers to questions you haven't asked (and almost
>certainly would never have asked).
>One of these said:
>
>"Is Weston-super-Mare rough?"
>
>"Weston-Super-Mare is the second most dangerous major town in Somerset"
>
>
>But if you follow the link, it will also tell you that Weston is:
>
>"the 779th most dangerous location out of all towns, cities, and
>villages [in the UK]."

The roughest aspect of Weston-super-Mare was underfoot when we were
there in 1984. Our daughter and son wanted to get into the water, but
- Floridians that they were - expected a sandy beach. "Shingle", in
this context, is defined as "a mass of small, rounded pebbles", but
what they encountered was a mass of pointed rocks".
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 21:49:25 +0100
Organization: Fix this later
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:49 UTC

On 19/05/2022 9:32 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:

<snip>

> The roughest aspect of Weston-super-Mare was underfoot when we were
> there in 1984. Our daughter and son wanted to get into the water, but
> - Floridians that they were - expected a sandy beach. "Shingle", in
> this context, is defined as "a mass of small, rounded pebbles", but
> what they encountered was a mass of pointed rocks".

Rocks! Tha should consider thaself looky, lad. Most uvuss oo go
to Weston gets noothin' but mud, lad. Mud, mud, and more mud, for
miles and miles and miles.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:50 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:18:10 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> I haven't been to Weston for some time, so I googled to refresh the memory.
> Google offers answers to questions you haven't asked (and almost
> certainly would never have asked).
> One of these said:
>
> "Is Weston-super-Mare rough?"
>
> "Weston-Super-Mare is the second most dangerous major town in Somerset"
>
> But if you follow the link, it will also tell you that Weston is:
>
> "the 779th most dangerous location out of all towns, cities, and
> villages [in the UK]."

That would seem to make Somerset positively idyllic.
Too bad about all those murders in its middle.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:53 UTC

Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 20:55:32 UTC+2, Tony Cooper a écrit :
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:02:12 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
> <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 18:17:05 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:57:39 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> > >On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:00:55 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> >>
> >> > >> There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said it as an
> >> > >> intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be pleased to learn that I
> >> > >> have had no success in my search for a Youtube clip of her.
> >> > >Is that kaff or kaffay?
> >> >
> >> > "kaffay". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfVCQjLYek
> >> Contradicting what has been said here about the usual pronunciation
> >> of that word in BrE.
> >
> >You seem to be confused. "kaff" is the pronunciation of "caf" (an
> >existing colloquial abbreviation), never of café". See e.g.
> >
> >--- > >Caf definition
> >
> >(...)
> >
> >(colloquial) Café
> >
> >https://www.yourdictionary.com/caf
> I think that's understood by both PTD and by me. Those spellings
> merely represent how the words are pronounced. In text, the normal
> spelling of cafe/café would be used. If "caf" is represented in text,
> I'd do it as "caff", though.

But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.

> >---
> >
> >> > Set in Weston-super-Mare, and a quite watchable series, but cancelled
> >> > after Series 2 in 2013. I think it was shown by our local PBS
> >> > station in 2019 or 2020. British shows often take the slow boat to
> >> > the US.
> >> We're now having *Packed to the Rafters*. Something someone
> >> said in it last week suggested it might be Australian, but they
> >> don't have Australian accents (for the international market?),
> >> but Wikip says it is, 2008-13.
> --
>
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:09 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 20:55:32 UTC+2, Tony Cooper a écrit :
> > On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:02:12 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
> > <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 18:17:05 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:57:39 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > >> > On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> > >> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >> > >On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:00:55 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:

> > >> > >> There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said it as an
> > >> > >> intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be pleased to learn that I
> > >> > >> have had no success in my search for a Youtube clip of her.
> > >> > >Is that kaff or kaffay?
> > >> > "kaffay". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfVCQjLYek
> > >> Contradicting what has been said here about the usual pronunciation
> > >> of that word in BrE.
> > >You seem to be confused. "kaff" is the pronunciation of "caf" (an
> > >existing colloquial abbreviation), never of café". See e.g.
> > >--- > >Caf definition
> > >(...)
> > >(colloquial) Café
> > >https://www.yourdictionary.com/caf
> > I think that's understood by both PTD and by me. Those spellings
> > merely represent how the words are pronounced. In text, the normal
> > spelling of cafe/café would be used. If "caf" is represented in text,
> > I'd do it as "caff", though.
>
> But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.

I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Mark Brader - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:23 UTC

Peter Moylan:
> > To get to my present house, you have to make five left turns. (And no
> > right turns: the route sort of spirals in to my home.)

Anders Nygaard:
> I may have mentioned this before:
> In our last move, we could leave our old house, drive around 14 km while
> turning right nine times, and park the car just outside our new home.

I recall a time when a friend drove me from the University of Waterloo
(Ontario) to my parents' apartment in what is now Toronto. The last
part of the trip was eastbound on highway 401[*], southbound on 427[*]
to Dundas St., then east on Dundas, east on Bloor St., north one block
on Islington Av., east one block on Aberfoyle Cr., and finally north
on Lomond Dr.

And his comment, having made the trip with me before, was that it
involved *12 consecutive places where a lane change to the right
was required*, starting where highway 401 adds collector lanes
approaching 427.

I have not attempted to verify how many would be required now.

[*] I don't say "the 401" even if others do.
--
Mark Brader "All economic statistics are best seen as
Toronto a peculiarly boring form of science fiction..."
msb@vex.net --Paul Krugman

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<qws0z920tvcf$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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 by: Quinn C - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:51 UTC

* CDB:

> On 5/19/2022 9:19 AM, Quinn C wrote:
>> * CDB:
>
> [Veras]
>
>>> And who can forget the beautiful Vera Hruba Ralston?
>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whslTp-Oe7g
>
>> Not me, since I never knew her in the first place.
>
> How about the ever-popular Mae Busch?

Since she played in Laurel & Hardy movies, I've certainly seen her, but
didn't remember her name. The secondary characters in those movies tend
to not have a lot of personality.

I didn't recognize any other movie titles. What do you remember her for?

--
Where we are, when we are ... nothing but lies told by the senses.
-- Trance Gemini

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Quinn C - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:51 UTC

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 2:02:16 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 18:17:05 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:57:39 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> > On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> > >On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:00:55 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
>
>>> > >> There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said it as an
>>> > >> intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be pleased to learn that I
>>> > >> have had no success in my search for a Youtube clip of her.
>>> > >Is that kaff or kaffay?
>>> > "kaffay". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfVCQjLYek
>>> Contradicting what has been said here about the usual pronunciation
>>> of that word in BrE.
>>
>> You seem to be confused. "kaff" is the pronunciation of "caf" (an
>> existing colloquial abbreviation), never of café". See e.g.
>
> Where do you see an acute accent in anything CDB, I, or Tony wrote,
> or in the 30-second (not 32nd) promo Tony linked to?
>
> How many times do you have to be told that English is not French?

Can you justify "caf" as a pronunciation of "cafe" without explaining it
as a *French* silent e at the end?

"Cayf" would make some sense.

--
I'll call you the next time I pass through your star system.
-- Commander William T. Riker

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<1ptx9g6ni4l4g.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>

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 by: Quinn C - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:06 UTC

* Mark Brader:

> Peter Moylan:
>>> To get to my present house, you have to make five left turns. (And no
>>> right turns: the route sort of spirals in to my home.)
>
> Anders Nygaard:
>> I may have mentioned this before:
>> In our last move, we could leave our old house, drive around 14 km while
>> turning right nine times, and park the car just outside our new home.
>
> I recall a time when a friend drove me from the University of Waterloo
> (Ontario) to my parents' apartment in what is now Toronto. The last
> part of the trip was eastbound on highway 401[*], southbound on 427[*]
> to Dundas St., then east on Dundas, east on Bloor St., north one block
> on Islington Av., east one block on Aberfoyle Cr., and finally north
> on Lomond Dr.
>
> And his comment, having made the trip with me before, was that it
> involved *12 consecutive places where a lane change to the right
> was required*, starting where highway 401 adds collector lanes
> approaching 427.
>
> I have not attempted to verify how many would be required now.
>
> [*] I don't say "the 401" even if others do.

In Quebec, it's certainly not unusual to add "the".

| The Quebec French expression "à l'autre bout de la 20" (in English, at
| the other end of the 20) refers to Montreal when the speaker is in
| Quebec City, and to Quebec City when one is in Montreal.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Autoroute_20>

Or:

<https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/just-listen-to-the-music-of-the-traffic-in-the-city-but-avoid-ville-marie-and-the-20/>

I'm not sure whether there's influence from French in this.

Next: buses. I have the 51 and the 66 just steps from my door. In local
French, it's "la 51", whereas in France I believe it's more likely to be
called "le 51".

--
- There's someone here wanting to audition. - OK, Who is he?
- Well, it's not exactly a he. - OK, Who is she?
- Well, it's not exactly a she. ... it's sort of a they.
- You mean there's more than one? - Not really.
- Good grief, it's a triple-header.
-> <https://muppet.fandom.com/wiki/Tom,_Dick,_and_Harry>

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<AUr$yzSnMshiFAKE@wolff.co.uk>

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 by: Paul Wolff - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:22 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022, at 15:55:52, Jerry Friedman posted:
>On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 2:53:21 PM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022, at 10:29:46, CDB posted:
>> >On 5/18/2022 9:41 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >> Hibou wrote:
>> >>> Hibou a écrit :
>> >
>> >>>> But it's true that I haven't answered the question about why
>> >>>> 'fine' is an adverb in this context. The exchange "How are you?"
>> >>>> "Fine" is abbreviated, and in full would be "How are you doing?"
>> >>>> "I am doing fine." 'Fine' qualifies 'am doing' and is therefore
>> >>>> an adverb. When an American replies "Good", that is a non
>> >>>> sequitur. "I am doing good" means that one is working to improve
>> >>>> the world, and does not answer the question "How are you doing?"
>> >
>> >>> So I did make a mistake, but not about 'fine'. 'Good' here is a
>> >>> noun, not an adjective.
>> >
>> >> Good grief.
>> >
>> >owls are so obsessed with categories, you'd think they were mice.
>> >
>> >I believe what Peter meant by "good grief" is that "good" is an
>> >adjective in that phrase and also in an American response to "howya
>> >doin'?": in that case, it's an adjective in adverbial use.
>>
>> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an interrogative adverb,
>> so any good one-word answer must have adverbial force.
>
>But they don't. All of those answers are adjectives. (Some of them,
>such as "well", "ill", and "poorly" (rare in my country) look like adverbs,
>but the OED classifies them as adjectives in the senses we're talking
>about, which I think is right.
>
>On the other hand, it classifies "how" as an adverb, which I think is
>wrong.
>
I'd like to think that these are problems of the definitions we use for
'adverb' and 'adjective', and the logic following those. If the 'How?'
question is asking adverbially, that's what its answer should be.

Incidentally, I never did easily accept the idea that the class of
adverbs included qualifiers of adjectives, which didn't look much like
verbs to young me.
--
Paul

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
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 by: Jerry Friedman - Thu, 19 May 2022 23:05 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:28:49 PM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022, at 15:55:52, Jerry Friedman posted:
> >On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 2:53:21 PM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
> >> On Wed, 18 May 2022, at 10:29:46, CDB posted:
> >> >On 5/18/2022 9:41 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> >> Hibou wrote:
> >> >>> Hibou a écrit :
> >> >
> >> >>>> But it's true that I haven't answered the question about why
> >> >>>> 'fine' is an adverb in this context. The exchange "How are you?"
> >> >>>> "Fine" is abbreviated, and in full would be "How are you doing?"
> >> >>>> "I am doing fine." 'Fine' qualifies 'am doing' and is therefore
> >> >>>> an adverb. When an American replies "Good", that is a non
> >> >>>> sequitur. "I am doing good" means that one is working to improve
> >> >>>> the world, and does not answer the question "How are you doing?"
> >> >
> >> >>> So I did make a mistake, but not about 'fine'. 'Good' here is a
> >> >>> noun, not an adjective.
> >> >
> >> >> Good grief.
> >> >
> >> >owls are so obsessed with categories, you'd think they were mice.
> >> >
> >> >I believe what Peter meant by "good grief" is that "good" is an
> >> >adjective in that phrase and also in an American response to "howya
> >> >doin'?": in that case, it's an adjective in adverbial use.
> >>
> >> It seems to me that 'how' in 'how are you?' is an interrogative adverb,
> >> so any good one-word answer must have adverbial force.
> >
> >But they don't. All of those answers are adjectives. (Some of them,
> >such as "well", "ill", and "poorly" (rare in my country) look like adverbs,
> >but the OED classifies them as adjectives in the senses we're talking
> >about, which I think is right.

)

> >On the other hand, it classifies "how" as an adverb, which I think is
> >wrong.

I meant that it's wrong to classify "how" as an adverb and not as an
adjective.
> I'd like to think that these are problems of the definitions we use for
> 'adverb' and 'adjective', and the logic following those. If the 'How?'
> question is asking adverbially, that's what its answer should be.

I'd say it's the other way around. You can tell whether "How?" is
asking an adverbial or adjectival question by the answers it gets.

> Incidentally, I never did easily accept the idea that the class of
> adverbs included qualifiers of adjectives, which didn't look much like
> verbs to young me.

Yes, it's a bit hard to see how "quietly", "very", "how", "here", and "not"
fit into one category. I believe most modern linguists consider "adverb"
too broad a classification.

--
Jerry Friedman

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: snidely....@gmail.com (Snidely)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 17:14:24 -0700
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 by: Snidely - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:14 UTC

CDB submitted this idea :
> On 5/18/2022 5:20 PM, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>> CDB:
>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> CDB wrote:
>
>>>>> [...] -- I always wanted to be Charlie, but nooo.
>
>>>> We can call you Charlie if you want.
>
>>> Thanks, but you're too late. Charlie, who was my uncle, is now my
>>> nephew, and I am often mistaken for a business district.
>
>> I thought Bob's your uncle?
>
> I'm not that copacetic.

We need to see Lola!

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:20 UTC

On 20/05/22 03:10, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:28:31 AM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels
> wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 2:46:39 AM UTC-4, bil...@shaw.ca
>> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:19:42 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 21:40:42 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader)
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> It's only in southern California and southern Ontario that
>>>>> main roads get a "the". When you get to the border you're on
>>>>> I-5.
>>>
>>> No, I don't think it's only in those places. I don't know in how
>>> many regions you have driven, but every North American region
>>> where I've driven had roads or highways called "the" something
>>> or another.
>>
>> If they have names. I don't take "the 17" to get onto the NYS
>> Thruway. (That's Route 17, which has the same number as both NJ-17
>> and NY-17.)
> ...
>
> That's also my experience in Ohio, Illinois, and New Mexico. To
> visit my father, I used to take (I-)271 to (I-)90, or the Shoreway.
> Here in New Mexico, I can take 84/285, the Chama Highway, or 68, the
> low road to Taos.

Although our major roads have numbers, few of those numbers are part of
the public consciousness. For example, to travel down the west side of
the lake from here, I would take Lake Road, and then Five Islands Road,
and so on. To travel north, I would take the Pacific Highway. Roads
known by their numbers are far outnumbered by named roads and highways.

Some freeways are known by their numbers. The freeway from Newcastle to
Sydney used to be called the F3. Now it's called the M1. This change was
mildly confusing. When my cats were due for their F3 vaccination, I
called the vet and accidentally tried to book them in for an M1 vaccination.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:21 UTC

On 19-May-22 21:30, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 19-May-22 5:27, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> The phrase comes from the Second Amendment to the United States
>>> Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
>>> security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
>>> Arms, shall not be infringed."
>>
>> Well if it's bear arms you want, why not stick to some bells and a
>> pepper spray?
>
> Restricting it to what the founders knew about would also be fine.
> (so muzzle loading black powder muskets and pistols)
>
> Swords allowed too,

I would hold off on all of those until there is a bit more progress on
that Militia.
Who is responsible for doing the regulating?

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:29 UTC

On 20/05/22 08:22, Paul Wolff wrote:
>
> Incidentally, I never did easily accept the idea that the class of
> adverbs included qualifiers of adjectives, which didn't look much
> like verbs to young me.

Adverbs can even qualify adverbs. It's a messy aspect of our traditional
classification.

If we invented different categories for "words that qualify verbs",
"words that qualify adjectives", and so on, we would end up with so many
different word classes that the system would be unmanageable. Somewhere
along the line you would need a "miscellaneous other" class. The
traditional naming of an "adverb" class is imperfect, but it's a bit
hard to see how we could do better and not run into an unwieldy mess.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:42 UTC

On 20/05/22 05:49, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 18-May-22 23:29, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 19/05/22 02:20, Sam Plusnet wrote:

>>> Conversation at/after funerals doesn't tend to revolve around
>>> armpits, in my experience.
>>
>> It should, considering how the coffin is carried.
>>
> On a foldable trolley, in all the funerals I've attended in recent
> years.
>
> A newer trend is for a company to collect the body from... wherever
> it happens to be, cremate it, and (if required) return the ashes to
> the next of kin who way do with them as they wish. If you don't want
> a funeral service, you could hold a Wake in a pub with the urn
> propped up on the bar.

The funerals I've been to over the last few years have all been
different, but they can all be thought of as two-phase affairs. The
first phase is the formal part. This can involve an official memorial
with speeches, or a church service, or a gathering at the cemetery, or a
few other possibilities. Then there's the informal part: lunch at a pub,
or sandwiches and drinks at the local golf club, or whatever.

That informal part, it seems to me, is tending to be the most important
part.

My wife and I have chosen not to have funerals. The survivor will
probably invite a group of friends to our home. Or, if the numbers
threaten to be too high, we can do something like renting a room at a club.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 10:50:40 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:50 UTC

On 19/05/22 23:34, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 5:13:22 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:

>> A recent puzzle was why the BBC promoted to its No. 1 news item
>> some weeks ago a leaked draft judgement of the American Supreme
>> Court on the matter of whether abortion was covered by their
>> constitution. I mean - as a British news headline, that's got
>> everything wrong with it. Foreign, underhand provenance,
>> irrelevant to British interests. Would they report a leaked draft
>> ruling of Iranian mullahs on the same subject in the Iranian
>> constitution? No, of course they wouldn't.
>
> Could it have anything to do with public opinion?
>
> Could it have anything to do with freedom of expression?
>
> Could it be that nothing like it happened in the previous 232 years?

Those three questions are questions about the American nation. They are
not relevant to news reporting in other countries.

As seen from outside, the story is one about the US Supreme Court having
turned into an ultra-conservative club. From our point of view, the
important questions are things like "How can we stop this from happening
in our country?". The finer details are things for Americans to decide.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 11:01:54 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:01 UTC

On 20/05/22 10:21, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 19-May-22 21:30, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19-May-22 5:27, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>> The phrase comes from the Second Amendment to the United
>>>> States Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being
>>>> necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the
>>>> people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
>>>
>>> Well if it's bear arms you want, why not stick to some bells and
>>> a pepper spray?
>>
>> Restricting it to what the founders knew about would also be fine.
>> (so muzzle loading black powder muskets and pistols)
>>
>> Swords allowed too,
>
> I would hold off on all of those until there is a bit more progress
> on that Militia. Who is responsible for doing the regulating?

If I am not misremembering the history, the intent of that amendment was
to ensure that the federal government could not create its own army. The
individual states needed the power to create and regulate their own
militia, as a guard against the central government grabbing power.

That ship has now sailed, so the amendment is effectively obsolete.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:19 UTC

On 19/05/22 22:16, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 10:37:11 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
>> On 2022-05-18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:38:23 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet
>>> wrote:

>>>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley
>>>> Girl", not a senior citizen in NJ?
>>>
>>> So Americanisms are another thing you're not up on. It is not
>>> pronounced as an initialism; it is simply "oh, my God!"
>>> expressing incredulity.
>>
>> I have heard (young) people say "oh em gee".
>
> Last night, watching a TV program, two different women said "oh em
> gee". The program is a Canadian production set in Toronto.
>
> They were mothers at a party for one mother's child's first
> birthday.

Social media - Usenet and its successors - are to blame for this. In
online discussions it's natural to create abbreviations for common
phrases. Eventually newcomers arrive who have little or no knowledge of
the original phrase, and know only the abbreviation.

It's very possible that some of the OMG users have no idea that gods
were originally being invoked.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

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