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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: Smart

SubjectAuthor
* SmartRuud Harmsen
+* Re: SmartAdam Funk
|+* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||`* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
|| `- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
|`- Re: SmartQuinn C
+- Re: SmartCDB
+* Re: SmartJerry Friedman
|+* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||+* Re: SmartSnidely
|||`- Re: SmartAthel Cornish-Bowden
||`* Re: SmartJerry Friedman
|| `* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  +* Re: SmartSilvano
||  |+* Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels
||  ||`* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  || +* Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels
||  || |`- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  || +* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  || |`- Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels
||  || `- Re: SmartPeter Moylan
||  |`* Re: SmartDavid Kleinecke
||  | `- Re: SmartPeter Moylan
||  +* Re: SmartStefan Ram
||  |`* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  | +* Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels
||  | |`* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||  | | `- Re: SmartKerr-Mudd, John
||  | `* Re: SmartStefan Ram
||  |  `- Re: SmartStefan Ram
||  +- Re: SmartMadhu
||  `* Re: SmartJerry Friedman
||   +* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||   |+- Re: SmartPeter Moylan
||   |`* Re: SmartJerry Friedman
||   | `* Re: Smartruudhar...@gmail.com
||   |  `* Re: SmartJerry Friedman
||   |   +* Re: SmartRichard Heathfield
||   |   |`- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||   |   +* Re: SmartAthel Cornish-Bowden
||   |   |+- Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels
||   |   |`- Re: SmartPeter Moylan
||   |   `* Re: SmartSnidely
||   |    `- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
||   `- Re: SmartQuinn C
|`* Re: SmartCDB
| `* Re: SmartKerr-Mudd, John
|  `- Re: SmartCDB
`* Re: Smartbil...@shaw.ca
 +- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
 +* Re: SmartKen Blake
 |`- Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
 `* Re: SmartSam Plusnet
  `* Re: SmartRuud Harmsen
   +- Re: SmartSnidely
   +- Re: SmartCDB
   `- Re: SmartPeter T. Daniels

Pages:123
Re: Smart

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:53:03 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:53 UTC

Thu, 19 May 2022 09:18:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 9:37:35 AM UTC-4, Silvano wrote:
>> Ruud Harmsen hat am 19.05.2022 um 08:10 geschrieben:
>
>> > One problem is that in English the perfect tense denotes imperfect
>> > aspect: actions in the past that continue, or have continuing effects,
>> > into the present and even the future. Totally devoid of any logic.
>>
>> Perhaps it could help you if you used the more usual name "past
>> progressive" or "past continuous" for the form "I was working" and
>> "present perfect continuous" or "present perfect progressive" for "I
>> have been working". The main point here is the continuous aspect, sadly
>> missing in German. Is it missing in Dutch, too?

Dutch has both forms too, but less strict, and with different
outcomes. The rules are very complicated, but I don't know any, I just
do it automatically. In English, I do not have such a reliable sense
for this.

Term like "progressive", "past continuous", "present perfect
continuous" or "present perfect progressive" don't help me much. The
main confusion remains that the perfect tense does NOT indicate a
perfective aspect. Perfective to me means, per fect, through done,
fully done, terminated. It cannot continue. The English perfect does
the opposite, it continues. But not always, and not reliably.

The textbook examples are always clear. But when applied to real life
sentences, I never know how to apply them, and when I lean to some
solution, it is very often wrong, and I don't understand why.

>> If native speakers have nothing to say against it,
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uses_of_English_verb_forms> should be the
>> base for the names of the various English verb forms.
>
>The terminology in the outline at the top seems pretty standard.

Terminology doesn't help me much. Young children know nothing about
linguistic terminology, but often do things right.

One rule IS clear: with a clear time clause, in English you can only
use the simple past.
*I have gone to the movies yesterday.
is ungrammatical in English, but perfectly normal in Dutch:
Gisteren ben ik naar de film geweest.
or:
Ik ben gisteren naar de film geweest.
not:
* Gisteren ging ik naar de film.

With that rule, statistically, I can bluff myself out of a lot of
mistakes that my compatriots do make. Everything else is just random,
gambling, luck, incomprehensible.

Re: Smart

<b7yhK.48265$tX09.12504@fx10.ams1>

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From: not...@home.com (Sam Plusnet)
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 by: Sam Plusnet - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:53 UTC

On 19-May-22 8:51, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 6:32:05 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
>> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
>> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>>
>> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
>> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
>> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>>
>> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.
>>
>> So be it.
>
> They misunderstand you, and that's their fault? I think you're still in that phase
> where you think everyone else should worship at your shrine. Nobody else gets
> that sort of treatment. Why should you?

I CBA to check, but each time Ruud has received negative responses, it
has been when he interjects and says (in essence)

"Stop! You're doing it wrong."

That was certainly the case with Peter's "Vera Chook and Dave" post.

Ruud was completely wooshed by the wordplay, and thought _Peter_ was
making a mistake.

Had he responded with:

"Shouldn't that be Chuck?

he would have received an explanation of what he was missing.

But he went with the:
"Stop! You're doing it wrong."
approach.

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:58 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:37:35 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> 19 May 2022 15:01:42 GMT: r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
> scribeva:
> >Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> writes:

> >>I am unlearnable (to quote the late Franz Gnadiger) on the subject of
> >>English tenses and aspects. I studied, or have studied, or have been
> >>studying, the rules many times, and still I just don't understand them
> >>and cannot apply them correctly. So I just gave up.
> >>One problem is that in English the perfect tense denotes imperfect
> >>aspect: actions in the past that continue, or have continuing effects,
> >>into the present and even the future. Totally devoid of any logic.
> > /Every process/ has effects in its entire front light cone.
> > So that rule is not helpful.
>
> Right. Yet, that is a rule I have seen grammars give. Or I saw grammar
> give, or have been seeing, I don't care.

You understood what Stefan said? Maybe it goes into Dutch better
than into English.

> > I'm also bad at choosing the right tenseses, but that's
> > because I haven't learned that properly yet.
> > What I do now:
> > 1. read a textbook on tenses and work on the exercises,
> > 2. learn the translation of single sentences of my native
> > language with flashcards.
> >
> > Example for 1:
> >
> >|You ask people what they have done. Ask questions with /ever/:
> >|1. (ride / horse?) Have you ever ridden a horse?
>
> Did you ever ride a horse?

(Even once in your life. Someone saw the alleged perp who
looked like you riding a horse.)

> Have you ever ridden a horse?

(Any relevant experience that would help us determine whether
we should cast you in our new Western?)

> Those are completely equivalent to me. I cannot apply any of the many
> (often contradictory) rules given in textbooks to this.
> I do know that in Dutch only "Heb je wel eens paard gereden" is
> natural.
> "Reed je wel eens paard" is a bad resync of an English language
> children's tv series or program.
>
> Usually, the rules are different for US Eng and UK Eng as well. It's
> just to complicated and illogical. I cannot learn this.
>
> In Interlingua, the rules are supposed to be the same as in English,
> but the rules are not as strict. So now I prefer writing in that
> language, because I have the freedom to write what I think sounds
> best.

Even if no one will read what you write. As I keep saying, you'd have
more of an audience writing in Dutch.

> > "Unlearnable" might just mean that you underestimate the
> > effort or are not willing to spend it.
>
> You don't know how much time and effort I already spent on this. A
> lot, I can tell you.

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:03 UTC

Thu, 19 May 2022 09:41:58 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:10:44 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Wed, 18 May 2022 16:05:49 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 11:23:11 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Wed, 18 May 2022 08:30:07 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
>> >> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>> >> >The difficulties you're having are not inevitable. There are probably a
>> >> >few people here who, now that they feel hostile toward you, will never
>> >> >stop.
>> >
>> >> That's what I said all the time.
>> >
>> >"That's what I've been saying all the time," unless you mean you're not
>> >going to say it any more. "That's what I've been saying" is probably
>> >more natural.
>
>I forgot a very idiomatic possibility: "That's what I've been saying all along."
>
>> I am unlearnable (to quote the late Franz Gnadiger) on the subject of
>> English tenses and aspects. I studied, or have studied, or have been
>> studying, the rules many times, and still I just don't understand them
>> and cannot apply them correctly. So I just gave up.
>
>OK, I admit it's very difficult, and no language I know anything about has
>anything like "I've been saying".

The progressive forms aren't difficult for me. The difficult thing is
to chose between "did" and "have done".

>If you want me to stop correcting you on such things, I'll stop.

Contrary to other people, I always appreciate corrections and
constructive criticism. I learn from them.

I often find errors in 6 or 15 year old web articles I wrote and have
published. (Have written and published? Whatever). Then I often wonder
"How could it be that nobody noticed? Why didn't anybody tell me about
this?".

You could say "Nobody reads you", but it also happens with articles of
which I just _know_ they are often fetched. Perhaps by robots, but I
filter those from the statistics as much as I can.
>> One problem is that in English the perfect tense denotes imperfect
>> aspect: actions in the past that continue, or have continuing effects,
>> into the present and even the future. Totally devoid of any logic.
>
>The problem is not logic; it's terminology. Maybe "perfect" is a misleading
>name for "I have VERBed" and its relatives, but don't be misled by the name.
>
>> >And it's not what you said. I said "probably a few people" and you said
>> >"this group".
>> >
>> >> The "not one of us" effect. Very
>> >> human, very understandable, very fundamental, but also the root of
>> >> racism, violent nationalism, hate wars like Putin's, hate against LGBT
>> >> people, etc. So I will keep protesting when I see it.
>> >
>> >But the hostility toward you is not about your race or any "protected
>> >class" (as we say in the U.S.) that you belong to,
>
>> The essence is "group". That's my theory. The label, situation or
>> property by which group membership is determined is immaterial. The
>> mechanism is the same every time.
>
>I hope you see that when /some/ people in this group act in a certain
>hostile way, and you say "It is strictly forbidden here" and such things,
>you're making that very mistake.

You are unaware of the notions or "irony", "hyperbole" and
"generalisation"? And of using individual cases as an illustration of
general tendencies?

>> >and as Snidely said, it's
>> >mostly not about being a newcomer. It's about your behavior.
>
>> Yes. It's all entirely my fault. Amen.
>>
>> But seriously, you are right. I have a tendency of triggering the evil
>> group behaviour that is understandably inherent to mankind, because it
>> was once essential for survival. But now, in these modern times, it is
>> wrong.
>>
>> I didn't do anything wrong. I only triggered wrong behaviour in
>> others. That they will never admit that, is also part of the
>> evolutionary mechanism.
>
>No, you did do things wrong. For instance, in the "When I'm 64"
>incident, you could have said, "Did you mean 'Vera, Chuck, and Dave'
>as in the Beatles song, or am I missing something?" I think you would
>have gotten considerably less hostility.

Yes, I could have. But didn't. I hope I was dealing with intelligent
and flexible people here, who would understand. But no, must explain
everything in great detail, as I said before.

>In other words, the problem, in my view, was not just that you
>misunderstood. It's that you didn't take into account the possibility
>that you might have misunderstood.
>
>> >> Not so much for
>> >> myself, but for all the other victims. Trying to make people aware.
>> >> Even though the same mechanism makes them blind to it.
>> >...
>> >
>> >If you're trying to make people aware of what they're doing wrong, you're
>> >going about it in entirely the wrong way.
>
>> True. It is ineffective.
>
>But there are ways that have some chance of being effective.
>
>> The Western world has Freedom of Expression. However criticism, trying
>> to improve things by pointing out what is wrong with the current
>> method or situation, is culturally unacceptable. The stereotype is
>> that that is an East-Asian thing. But in reality, it is very
>> European/American, i.e., Western.
>
>Brace yourself for another insight: It's not what you say, it's how you say it.
>
>And there's no "current method or situation" here. There are different
>people doing different things. The group attracts people with certain
>backgrounds (especially "old"), interests, and styles, so you can see
>trends, but that's all.
>
>> The Emperor wears no cloths. I've said it. (Or: I said it, I have been
>> saying it, whatever.)
>
>"Clothes".

Kloðze.

Re: Smart

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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:05 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:07 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 19 May 2022 09:18:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 9:37:35 AM UTC-4, Silvano wrote:
> >> Ruud Harmsen hat am 19.05.2022 um 08:10 geschrieben:
> >
> >> > One problem is that in English the perfect tense denotes imperfect
> >> > aspect: actions in the past that continue, or have continuing effects,
> >> > into the present and even the future. Totally devoid of any logic.
> >>
> >> Perhaps it could help you if you used the more usual name "past
> >> progressive" or "past continuous" for the form "I was working" and
> >> "present perfect continuous" or "present perfect progressive" for "I
> >> have been working". The main point here is the continuous aspect, sadly
> >> missing in German. Is it missing in Dutch, too?
>
> Dutch has both forms too, but less strict, and with different
> outcomes. The rules are very complicated, but I don't know any, I just
> do it automatically. In English, I do not have such a reliable sense
> for this.
>
> Term like "progressive", "past continuous", "present perfect
> continuous" or "present perfect progressive" don't help me much. The
> main confusion remains that the perfect tense does NOT indicate a
> perfective aspect. Perfective to me means, per fect, through done,
> fully done, terminated. It cannot continue. The English perfect does
> the opposite, it continues. But not always, and not reliably.

Why are you still complaining about it, instead of taking Silvano's
advice and just dropping the term "perfect" from the discussion?

"Perfective" is a technical term in both Slavic and Semitic (specifically
Classical Arabic and Classical Hebrew) grammar, though used
differently in those two realms, but not in English grammar.

> The textbook examples are always clear. But when applied to real life
> sentences, I never know how to apply them, and when I lean to some
> solution, it is very often wrong, and I don't understand why.

Maybe my rule of thumb for French and German also works for Dutch.
Use the opposite of the form in your own language.

> >> If native speakers have nothing to say against it,
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uses_of_English_verb_forms> should be the
> >> base for the names of the various English verb forms.
> >The terminology in the outline at the top seems pretty standard.
>
> Terminology doesn't help me much. Young children know nothing about
> linguistic terminology, but often do things right.

But you are hung up on "perfect" and "perfective" and their etymology.
They don't appear in that set of terms.

> One rule IS clear: with a clear time clause, in English you can only
> use the simple past.
> *I have gone to the movies yesterday.
> is ungrammatical in English, but perfectly normal in Dutch:

Q.E.D.

> Gisteren ben ik naar de film geweest.
> or:
> Ik ben gisteren naar de film geweest.
> not:
> * Gisteren ging ik naar de film.
>
> With that rule, statistically, I can bluff myself out of a lot of
> mistakes that my compatriots do make. Everything else is just random,
> gambling, luck, incomprehensible.

Just keep applying the rule! Where you'd use a simple tense
in Dutch, use a compound tense in English.

Re: Smart

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 23:06:42 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:06 UTC

Thu, 19 May 2022 22:53:03 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>One rule IS clear: with a clear time clause, in English you can only
>use the simple past.
>*I have gone to the movies yesterday.
>is ungrammatical in English, but perfectly normal in Dutch:
>Gisteren ben ik naar de film geweest.
>or:
>Ik ben gisteren naar de film geweest.
>not:
>* Gisteren ging ik naar de film.
>
>With that rule, statistically, I can bluff myself out of a lot of
>mistakes that my compatriots do make. Everything else is just random,
>gambling, luck, incomprehensible.

When in Dutch someone says "Ik ging gisteren naar de film"
(litterally: I went yesterday to the movies), people would wonder:
"Yes? And what happened? It was sold out? You stumbled and fell? You
got a car accident? Somebody else got an accident and you had to give
first aid? Or what?

Re: Smart

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 23:08:21 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:08 UTC

Thu, 19 May 2022 12:11:25 -0700: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
scribeva:
>The treatment he should get is killfiling. Then I wouldn't have to see
>his messages quoted in someone else's posts.

Cancelling. Lifelong ban. I deserve it. Mea culpa, Master Sir Ken
Blake.

Fuck you, asshole.

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:13 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 5:06:46 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 19 May 2022 22:53:03 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> scribeva:

> >One rule IS clear: with a clear time clause, in English you can only
> >use the simple past.
> >*I have gone to the movies yesterday.
> >is ungrammatical in English, but perfectly normal in Dutch:
> >Gisteren ben ik naar de film geweest.
> >or:
> >Ik ben gisteren naar de film geweest.
> >not:
> >* Gisteren ging ik naar de film.
> >
> >With that rule, statistically, I can bluff myself out of a lot of
> >mistakes that my compatriots do make. Everything else is just random,
> >gambling, luck, incomprehensible.
>
> When in Dutch someone says "Ik ging gisteren naar de film"
> (litterally: I went yesterday to the movies), people would wonder:
> "Yes? And what happened? It was sold out? You stumbled and fell? You
> got a car accident? Somebody else got an accident and you had to give
> first aid? Or what?

What's that got to do with the verb form?

You started to tell a story, but then you didn't tell the story.

"Yesterday I went to the movies.

[Note absence of close-quote.]

Re: Smart

<fkcd8hde3rvfuj2jr3ek70b7deeh2b8uuq@4ax.com>

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 23:20:15 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:20 UTC

Thu, 19 May 2022 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> In Interlingua, the rules are supposed to be the same as in English,
>> but the rules are not as strict. So now I prefer writing in that
>> language, because I have the freedom to write what I think sounds
>> best.
>
>Even if no one will read what you write. As I keep saying, you'd have
>more of an audience writing in Dutch.

In practice, I use all three languages depending on the subject at
hand. Just look at my history files, the language of every article is
marked in there.
https://rudhar.com/index/whatsold/wotsnu22.htm
https://rudhar.com/index/whatsold/wotsnu21.htm

Last year’s 19 episode search engine article series
https://rudhar.com/sfreview/siworin I wrote naturally in English,
because in information technology, I am a native speaker of English by
having learnt almost everything in English. Dutch ICT language (ICT =
Information & Communication Technology) feels unnatural to me. I would
constantly have to look up terminology, whereas in English I just know
what terms to use: same as what everybody else uses.

Re: Smart

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 23:21:47 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:21 UTC

Thu, 19 May 2022 14:05:17 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>> The textbook examples are always clear. But when applied to real life
>> sentences, I never know how to apply them, and when I lean to some
>> solution, it is very often wrong, and I don't understand why.
>
>Maybe my rule of thumb for French and German also works for Dutch.
>Use the opposite of the form in your own language.

No, doesn't work. Sometimes we use the same form. It is very
complicated in both languages, but differently.

Re: Smart

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 23:29:57 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:29 UTC

Thu, 19 May 2022 21:53:26 +0100: Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> scribeva:

>On 19-May-22 8:51, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 6:32:05 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>>> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
>>> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
>>> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>>>
>>> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
>>> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
>>> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>>>
>>> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.
>>>
>>> So be it.
>>
>> They misunderstand you, and that's their fault? I think you're still in that phase
>> where you think everyone else should worship at your shrine. Nobody else gets
>> that sort of treatment. Why should you?
>
>I CBA to check, but each time Ruud has received negative responses, it
>has been when he interjects and says (in essence)
>
>"Stop! You're doing it wrong."

Yes. That's an opinion, a view, my view. Others may disagree, but this
is how I see it. Perhaps maybe please you might want to consider it.
Then say how you see it, perhaps differently. It's called discussion.
In a discussion group.

Freedom of speech, have you ever heard of it? Familiar concept?

O wait, now I know. I should have prepended the phrase with "With all
due respect"! Then it would have been allright!

>That was certainly the case with Peter's "Vera Chook and Dave" post.
>
>Ruud was completely wooshed by the wordplay, and thought _Peter_ was
>making a mistake.
>
>Had he responded with:
>
>"Shouldn't that be Chuck?

Flexible interpretation of language. People are incapable of that. In
a discussion group called "alt.usage.English", a group about English
usage, about how to use the English language. Sad.

>he would have received an explanation of what he was missing.
>
>But he went with the:
>"Stop! You're doing it wrong."
>approach.

Mea culpa. Lifelong ban and cancelling and killfiling is what I
rightfully deserve. Mea maxima culpa. I plead guilty on all counts!

Re: Smart

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Smart
Date: 19 May 2022 22:54:14 GMT
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 by: Stefan Ram - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:54 UTC

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> writes:
>19 May 2022 15:01:42 GMT: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>scribeva:
>Did you ever ride a horse?
>Have you ever ridden a horse?
>Those are completely equivalent to me. I cannot apply any of the many
>(often contradictory) rules given in textbooks to this.

The book I took this exercise from explains that the
present perfect is used to talk about a period of time
that extends from the past until the present.

"Have you ever ridden a horse?" refers to the period of time
from the childhood of the person addressed until now, so this
rule applies to it.

>Usually, the rules are different for US Eng and UK Eng as well. It's
>just to complicated and illogical. I cannot learn this.

I agree that it would be presumptuous to try to learn
American and British English at the same time! I am learning
American English. So the textbook I quoted from above is a
book specifically dedicated to American English. It says so
right on the cover: "For students of North American English".

But let's check out a book with British English as its
focus! It says that "ever" is /often/ used with the perfect
tense to mean "at any time up to now". So I guess that a
master of English might deviate from this rule sometimes,
but for a beginner it is a welcome guideline.

In my text collection, I find many examples with "Did you
ever ...". So, it surely is possible. But how do you decide
when to use the simple past? Therefore, for simplification,
I suggest to always use the present perfect when a learner
uses "ever" in this sense, but he should not presume to
correct a native speaker who uses a different tense for it.

I personally remember having heard a song with the lyrics:

|Did you ever see a hangman tie a slipknot?
|Did you ever see a hangman tie a slipknot?
|I've seen it many a time and he winds, he winds,
|After thirteen times he's got a slipknot.

.

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 16:41:41 -0700
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 by: Snidely - Thu, 19 May 2022 23:41 UTC

Just this Thursday, Ruud Harmsen puzzled about:
> Thu, 19 May 2022 21:53:26 +0100: Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> scribeva:
>
>> On 19-May-22 8:51, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 6:32:05 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>
>>>> In this group, everything must always be spelled out in minute detail,
>>>> and explained and introduced and explained again, and referred to.
>>>> Otherwise they will misunderstand, and blame the contributor for it.
>>>>
>>>> It is strictly forbidden here to post a compact one or three word
>>>> comment, which requires some thinking and interpretation, and
>>>> involvement of earlier context, or world knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> Remember, the contributor shall be blamed, not the misunderstanders.
>>>>
>>>> So be it.
>>>
>>> They misunderstand you, and that's their fault? I think you're still in
>>> that phase where you think everyone else should worship at your shrine.
>>> Nobody else gets that sort of treatment. Why should you?
>>
>> I CBA to check, but each time Ruud has received negative responses, it
>> has been when he interjects and says (in essence)
>>
>> "Stop! You're doing it wrong."
>
> Yes. That's an opinion, a view, my view. Others may disagree, but this
> is how I see it. Perhaps maybe please you might want to consider it.
> Then say how you see it, perhaps differently. It's called discussion.
> In a discussion group.
>
> Freedom of speech, have you ever heard of it? Familiar concept?
>
> O wait, now I know. I should have prepended the phrase with "With all
> due respect"! Then it would have been allright!
>
>> That was certainly the case with Peter's "Vera Chook and Dave" post.
>>
>> Ruud was completely wooshed by the wordplay, and thought _Peter_ was
>> making a mistake.
>>
>> Had he responded with:
>>
>> "Shouldn't that be Chuck?
>
> Flexible interpretation of language. People are incapable of that. In
> a discussion group called "alt.usage.English", a group about English
> usage, about how to use the English language. Sad.
>
>> he would have received an explanation of what he was missing.
>>
>> But he went with the:
>> "Stop! You're doing it wrong."
>> approach.
>
> Mea culpa. Lifelong ban and cancelling and killfiling is what I
> rightfully deserve. Mea maxima culpa. I plead guilty on all counts!

Well, you keep going on about this instead of moving on and trying
something else.

/dps

--
Trust, but verify.

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Subject: Re: Smart
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 by: Stefan Ram - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:49 UTC

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>In my text collection, I find many examples with "Did you
>ever ...".

"Have you ever" is about 1.66 times more frequent than "Did
you ever" in my collection.

One might use "did you ever" for periods of the past that
do not include the present. "When you were in Los Angeles,
did you ever meet Arnold Schwarzenegger?". - The person
addressed might have been in Los Angeles five months ago,
so "did you ever" does not refer to a period that includes
the present. "When you were a child, did you ever ...?",
"In your whole live, up to now, have you ever ...?".

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:29 UTC

On 20/05/22 06:53, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> The main confusion remains that the perfect tense does NOT indicate
> a perfective aspect. Perfective to me means, per fect, through done,
> fully done, terminated. It cannot continue. The English perfect does
> the opposite, it continues. But not always, and not reliably.

This statement puzzles me. Can you give an example?

For me, the English present perfect is used to express something that
was true in the past but is now complete.

Perhaps you're thinking of a different tense.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:36 UTC

On 20/05/22 07:03, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> The progressive forms aren't difficult for me. The difficult thing
> is to chose between "did" and "have done".

Use "did" to refer to one point on the timeline. Use "have done" when
the focus is on a range of times up until now.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Fri, 20 May 2022 07:24 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 23:20:15 +0200
Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

> Thu, 19 May 2022 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> In Interlingua, the rules are supposed to be the same as in English,
> >> but the rules are not as strict. So now I prefer writing in that
> >> language, because I have the freedom to write what I think sounds
> >> best.
> >
> >Even if no one will read what you write. As I keep saying, you'd have
> >more of an audience writing in Dutch.
>
> In practice, I use all three languages depending on the subject at
> hand. Just look at my history files, the language of every article is
> marked in there.
> https://rudhar.com/index/whatsold/wotsnu22.htm
> https://rudhar.com/index/whatsold/wotsnu21.htm
>
> Last year’s 19 episode search engine article series
> https://rudhar.com/sfreview/siworin I wrote naturally in English,
> because in information technology, I am a native speaker of English by
from
> having learnt almost everything in English. Dutch ICT language (ICT =
> Information & Communication Technology) feels unnatural to me. I would
> constantly have to look up terminology, whereas in English I just know
> what terms to use: same as what everybody else uses.
unless it's a joke, 'the same that everybody else uses. or just 'the same as everybody else'

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

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 by: CDB - Fri, 20 May 2022 11:29 UTC

On 5/19/2022 5:29 PM, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> scribeva:

[good advice]

>> I CBA to check, but each time Ruud has received negative
>> responses, it has been when he interjects and says (in essence)

>> "Stop! You're doing it wrong."
>
> Yes. That's an opinion, a view, my view. Others may disagree, but
> this is how I see it. Perhaps maybe please you might want to
> consider it. Then say how you see it, perhaps differently. It's
> called discussion. In a discussion group.

> Freedom of speech, have you ever heard of it? Familiar concept?

"Take what you want" says God. "And pay for it."

[self-pity]

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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Fri, 20 May 2022 13:30 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 5:30:01 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 19 May 2022 21:53:26 +0100: Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> scribeva:

> >I CBA to check, but each time Ruud has received negative responses, it
> >has been when he interjects and says (in essence)
> >
> >"Stop! You're doing it wrong."
>
> Yes. That's an opinion, a view, my view. Others may disagree, but this
> is how I see it. Perhaps maybe please you might want to consider it.
> Then say how you see it, perhaps differently. It's called discussion.
> In a discussion group.

Some here, when it suits them, claim that they are unable to
distinguish an expression of opinion from a -- what? statement
of fact?

Some here, when it suits them, are unable to distinguish between
a generalization and a universal declaration.

Those in those categories, when it suits them, demand that all
such expressions be prefaced with "in my opinion" bzw. "as a
generalization."

But only when it suits them, of course.

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Subject: Re: Smart
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
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 by: Jerry Friedman - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:10 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 3:03:34 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 19 May 2022 09:41:58 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>
> >On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:10:44 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Wed, 18 May 2022 16:05:49 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> >> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 11:23:11 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >> Wed, 18 May 2022 08:30:07 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> >> >> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> >> >> >The difficulties you're having are not inevitable. There are probably a
> >> >> >few people here who, now that they feel hostile toward you, will never
> >> >> >stop.
> >> >
> >> >> That's what I said all the time.
> >> >
> >> >"That's what I've been saying all the time," unless you mean you're not
> >> >going to say it any more. "That's what I've been saying" is probably
> >> >more natural.
> >
> >I forgot a very idiomatic possibility: "That's what I've been saying all along."
> >
> >> I am unlearnable (to quote the late Franz Gnadiger) on the subject of
> >> English tenses and aspects. I studied, or have studied, or have been
> >> studying, the rules many times, and still I just don't understand them
> >> and cannot apply them correctly. So I just gave up.
> >
> >OK, I admit it's very difficult, and no language I know anything about has
> >anything like "I've been saying".

> The progressive forms aren't difficult for me. The difficult thing is
> to chose between "did" and "have done".

The form in question has both.

> >If you want me to stop correcting you on such things, I'll stop.

> Contrary to other people, I always appreciate corrections and
> constructive criticism. I learn from them.
....

Noted.

> >> One problem is that in English the perfect tense denotes imperfect
> >> aspect: actions in the past that continue, or have continuing effects,
> >> into the present and even the future. Totally devoid of any logic.
> >
> >The problem is not logic; it's terminology. Maybe "perfect" is a misleading
> >name for "I have VERBed" and its relatives, but don't be misled by the name.
> >
> >> >And it's not what you said. I said "probably a few people" and you said
> >> >"this group".
> >> >
> >> >> The "not one of us" effect. Very
> >> >> human, very understandable, very fundamental, but also the root of
> >> >> racism, violent nationalism, hate wars like Putin's, hate against LGBT
> >> >> people, etc. So I will keep protesting when I see it.
> >> >
> >> >But the hostility toward you is not about your race or any "protected
> >> >class" (as we say in the U.S.) that you belong to,
> >
> >> The essence is "group". That's my theory. The label, situation or
> >> property by which group membership is determined is immaterial. The
> >> mechanism is the same every time.
> >
> >I hope you see that when /some/ people in this group act in a certain
> >hostile way, and you say "It is strictly forbidden here" and such things,
> >you're making that very mistake.

> You are unaware of the notions or "irony", "hyperbole" and
> "generalisation"?

If you're trying to get along with people, I recommend not using hyperbole
that makes it seem you're criticizing more people than you are.

I'm aware of the concept of generalization, and I recognize the false
generalization in your "You are unaware of?" question. That's an effective
way of annoying me, but the falseness of it detracts from your point.

> And of using individual cases as an illustration of
> general tendencies?

An excellent plan, but you still need to demonstrate that the individual cases
are part of general tendencies.

> >> >and as Snidely said, it's
> >> >mostly not about being a newcomer. It's about your behavior.
> >
> >> Yes. It's all entirely my fault. Amen.
> >>
> >> But seriously, you are right. I have a tendency of triggering the evil
> >> group behaviour that is understandably inherent to mankind, because it
> >> was once essential for survival. But now, in these modern times, it is
> >> wrong.
> >>
> >> I didn't do anything wrong. I only triggered wrong behaviour in
> >> others. That they will never admit that, is also part of the
> >> evolutionary mechanism.
> >
> >No, you did do things wrong. For instance, in the "When I'm 64"
> >incident, you could have said, "Did you mean 'Vera, Chuck, and Dave'
> >as in the Beatles song, or am I missing something?" I think you would
> >have gotten considerably less hostility.

> Yes, I could have. But didn't. I hope I was dealing with intelligent
> and flexible people here, who would understand. But no, must explain
> everything in great detail, as I said before.
....

As I said, I consider the primary responsibility to be with the writer.
Expecting people to add "or am I missing something?" is not explaining
everything in great detail; it's expecting telepathy, if that's really what
you were thinking.

I haven't noticed you using your intelligence and flexibility to change
other people's statements so they provoke you less. Maybe you have
and can give an example.

> >> The Emperor wears no cloths. I've said it. (Or: I said it, I have been
> >> saying it, whatever.)
> >
> >"Clothes".

> Kloðze.

/kloUz/ in AmE, /kl@Uz/ in BrE--I notice you use British spelling.

--
Jerry Friedman

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
From: ruudharm...@gmail.com (ruudhar...@gmail.com)
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 by: ruudhar...@gmail.com - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:54 UTC

>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:10:44 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>> The Emperor wears no cloths. I've said it. (Or: I said it, I have been
>>>> saying it, whatever.)
>> Thu, 19 May 2022 09:41:58 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
>>> "Clothes".

> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 3:03:34 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Kloðze.

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 4:10:47 PM UTC+2, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> /kloUz/ in AmE, /kl@Uz/ in BrE--I notice you use British spelling.

If you'll allow me, I would like to take this opportunity, in no way intending
to criticise or harm, to point out that Collins Dictionary states that the British
pronunciation would be [kləʊðz], and the American variant [kloʊðz] or [kloʊz].
I have no independent verification of this, and I do not know how current or
trustworthy this is. I intentionally do not use phoneme symbols, so as not to
make any statement about any possible phoneme status of symbols used, nor
of combinations thereof.

Reference URI: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/clothes

This statement was provided without any guarantee or warranties whatsoever,
express nor implied, pertaining to usability, usefulness, merchantability, typos,
or bugfreeness.

Peace.

Better?

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
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 by: Jerry Friedman - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:42 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:54:59 AM UTC-6, ruudhar...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:10:44 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >>>> The Emperor wears no cloths. I've said it. (Or: I said it, I have been
> >>>> saying it, whatever.)
> >> Thu, 19 May 2022 09:41:58 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> >>> "Clothes".
> > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 3:03:34 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Kloðze.
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 4:10:47 PM UTC+2, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > /kloUz/ in AmE, /kl@Uz/ in BrE--I notice you use British spelling.

> If you'll allow me, I would like to take this opportunity, in no way intending
> to criticise or harm, to point out that Collins Dictionary states that the British
> pronunciation would be [kləʊðz], and the American variant [kloʊðz] or [kloʊz].

Thanks for pointing that out. The OED agrees. I shouldn't speak so
confidently about British pronunciation. On the other hand, I don't
think I've ever heard it with the [ð] in America.

> I have no independent verification of this, and I do not know how current or
> trustworthy this is. I intentionally do not use phoneme symbols, so as not to
> make any statement about any possible phoneme status of symbols used, nor
> of combinations thereof.

Interesting.
> Reference URI: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/clothes
>
> This statement was provided without any guarantee or warranties whatsoever,
> express nor implied, pertaining to usability, usefulness, merchantability, typos,
> or bugfreeness.
>
> Peace.
>
> Better?

It's a step in the right direction to make an effort. In other circumstances,
maybe you'll prefer to correct someone pleasantly, without exaggeration.

--
Jerry Friedman

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 17:59:12 +0100
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:59 UTC

On 20/05/2022 5:42 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:54:59 AM UTC-6, ruudhar...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:10:44 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>> The Emperor wears no cloths. I've said it. (Or: I said it, I have been
>>>>>> saying it, whatever.)
>>>> Thu, 19 May 2022 09:41:58 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
>>>>> "Clothes".
>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 3:03:34 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>> Kloðze.
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 4:10:47 PM UTC+2, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> /kloUz/ in AmE, /kl@Uz/ in BrE--I notice you use British spelling.
>
>> If you'll allow me, I would like to take this opportunity, in no way intending
>> to criticise or harm, to point out that Collins Dictionary states that the British
>> pronunciation would be [kləʊðz], and the American variant [kloʊðz] or [kloʊz].
>
> Thanks for pointing that out. The OED agrees. I shouldn't speak so
> confidently about British pronunciation. On the other hand, I don't
> think I've ever heard it with the [ð] in America.
>
>> I have no independent verification of this, and I do not know how current or
>> trustworthy this is. I intentionally do not use phoneme symbols, so as not to
>> make any statement about any possible phoneme status of symbols used, nor
>> of combinations thereof.
>
> Interesting.
>
>> Reference URI: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/clothes
>>
>> This statement was provided without any guarantee or warranties whatsoever,
>> express nor implied, pertaining to usability, usefulness, merchantability, typos,
>> or bugfreeness.
>>
>> Peace.
>>
>> Better?
>
> It's a step in the right direction to make an effort.

Thank you for reporting that. I've honoured Ruud's effort by
unplonking him.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Smart

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
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Subject: Re: Smart
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 20:32:46 +0200
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Fri, 20 May 2022 18:32 UTC

On 2022-05-20 16:42:40 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:

> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:54:59 AM UTC-6, ruudhar...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:10:44 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:>
>>>>> >>>> The Emperor wears no cloths. I've said it. (Or: I said it, I have
>>>>> been> >>>> saying it, whatever.)
>>>> Thu, 19 May 2022 09:41:58 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
>>>>> "Clothes".
>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 3:03:34 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>> Kloðze.
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 4:10:47 PM UTC+2, Jerry Friedman wrote:> >
>> /kloUz/ in AmE, /kl@Uz/ in BrE--I notice you use British spelling.
>
>> If you'll allow me, I would like to take this opportunity, in no way
>> intending> to criticise or harm, to point out that Collins Dictionary
>> states that the British> pronunciation would be [kləʊðz], and the
>> American variant [kloʊðz] or [kloʊz].
> Thanks for pointing that out.

I am surprised. I could have sworn that there is no [ð] in the British
pronunciation, but no doubt the compilers of the dictionary know. In
Fowler-III Burchfield says that the pronunciation without [ð] was
almost universal at the end of the 19th century but that it has
subsequently been almost completely driven out by the spelling
pronunciation (only "almost", because there is at least one person (me)
who has no [ð]). I would like to see what Fowler-I or II say, but
unfortunately Fowler-II is in my office, where I hardly ever go since
Covid-19 appeared, and although Fowler-I should be at home somewhere I
can't find it.

> The OED agrees. I shouldn't speak so
> confidently about British pronunciation. On the other hand, I don't
> think I've ever heard it with the [ð] in America.

[...]
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: Smart

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Subject: Re: Smart
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Fri, 20 May 2022 21:02 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-05-20 16:42:40 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:54:59 AM UTC-6, ruudhar...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:10:44 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:>
> >>>>> >>>> The Emperor wears no cloths. I've said it. (Or: I said it, I have
> >>>>> been> >>>> saying it, whatever.)
> >>>> Thu, 19 May 2022 09:41:58 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> >>>>> "Clothes".
> >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 3:03:34 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> >>>> Kloðze.
> >> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 4:10:47 PM UTC+2, Jerry Friedman wrote:> >
> >> /kloUz/ in AmE, /kl@Uz/ in BrE--I notice you use British spelling.
> >> If you'll allow me, I would like to take this opportunity, in no way
> >> intending> to criticise or harm, to point out that Collins Dictionary
> >> states that the British> pronunciation would be [kləʊðz], and the
> >> American variant [kloʊðz] or [kloʊz].
> > Thanks for pointing that out.
>
> I am surprised. I could have sworn that there is no [ð] in the British
> pronunciation, but no doubt the compilers of the dictionary know. In
> Fowler-III Burchfield says that the pronunciation without [ð] was
> almost universal at the end of the 19th century but that it has
> subsequently been almost completely driven out by the spelling
> pronunciation (only "almost", because there is at least one person (me)
> who has no [ð]). I would like to see what Fowler-I or II say, but
> unfortunately Fowler-II is in my office, where I hardly ever go since
> Covid-19 appeared, and although Fowler-I should be at home somewhere I
> can't find it.

"clothes. The usual pronunciation is
klōz, though this is often deliber-
ately abstained from in the mistaken
belief (confirmed by the OED) that
it is ' vulgar or careless ' ."

You're welcome.
> > The OED agrees. I shouldn't speak so
> > confidently about British pronunciation. On the other hand, I don't
> > think I've ever heard it with the [ð] in America.

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