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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

SubjectAuthor
* An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
| +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencespains...@gmail.com
| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|    |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|    |   |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRoss Clark
|    |     `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|     `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|      +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|      |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|      | +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceCDB
|      | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAdam Funk
|      | | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|      | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|      |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      |  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|      |  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|      `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceHibou
|       | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat
|       | ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceLewis
|       | | ||  |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | | ||    +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | | |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | | |||+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceGordonD
|       | | |||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||| `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | |||  `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | | ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | | || `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJoy Beeson
|       | | ||  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStefan Ram
|       | | ||   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceRichard Heathfield
|       | | ||   | `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | | ||   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJanet
|       | | ||    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMack A. Damia
|       | | |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePaul Wolff
|       | |  +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
|       | |   | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencelar3ryca
|       | |   |  +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |  |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAnders D. Nygaard
|       | |   |  | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |  |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceBebercito
|       | |   |  |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |   |  `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMark Brader
|       | |   |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       | |   |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |   |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       | |   |    ||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | |   |    || +- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |   |    || `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceMadhu
|       | |   |    |`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |   |    `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceAthel Cornish-Bowden
|       | |   `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencebil...@shaw.ca
|       | |    +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKerr-Mudd, John
|       | |    |+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||+* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceKen Blake
|       | |    |||`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter Moylan
|       | |    ||| `- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSilvano
|       | |    ||`- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceStoat
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceQuinn C
|       | |    |+- Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSam Plusnet
|       | |    |`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencecharles
|       | |    `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceJerry Friedman
|       | `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceTony Cooper
|       +* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidencePeter T. Daniels
|       `* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceSnidely
`* Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidenceDingbat

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Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<9dc42e75-3416-4d42-8bab-3432ae7b8025n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Injection-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 01:39:24 +0000
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 by: Jerry Friedman - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:39 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 6:21:57 PM UTC-6, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 19-May-22 21:30, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 19-May-22 5:27, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>> The phrase comes from the Second Amendment to the United States
> >>> Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
> >>> security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
> >>> Arms, shall not be infringed."
> >>
> >> Well if it's bear arms you want, why not stick to some bells and a
> >> pepper spray?
> >
> > Restricting it to what the founders knew about would also be fine.
> > (so muzzle loading black powder muskets and pistols)
> >
> > Swords allowed too,

> I would hold off on all of those until there is a bit more progress on
> that Militia.
> Who is responsible for doing the regulating?

Quis regulabit ipsos regulatores? Or whatever it would be.

--
Jerry

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t66rrb$nqs$1@dont-email.me>

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 11:45:14 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:45 UTC

On 20/05/22 05:58, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 20:13:25 +0100 Richard Heathfield
> <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>> We have such places, but we don't call them "transport cafes". They
>> are normally on motorways and are known as "motorway services".
>> Generally run as part of a chain: Moto, RoadChef, Welcome Break,
>> Granada, etc. Expensive, with plastic food. Transport "caffs" are
>> typically independent, cheap and cheerful affairs with rather more
>> tempting (but still cholesterol-laden) fare.
>>
> And the latter are possibly extinct. I've not seen one for 3
> decades.

In Australia those traditional places were private businesses - hotels,
junk food shops, cafes, and so on - that took advantage of their
location on a busy highway. Frequent highway users, most particularly
truck drivers, worked out which ones were worth stopping at, and the
news spread by word of mouth. If you saw several trucks parked outside a
nondescript building, you'd know that that place probably did good
hamburgers or other lunch possibilities.

Over time, though, the biggest highways were upgraded, often to
limited-access roads. Towns were bypassed, and those old
side-of-the-highway places lost customers.

When a major freeway is built, you can't just set up shop at the side of
the road. The road authorities control who gets the rights to sell food
at the "services" stops, and that squeezes out the mum-and-dad shops
that sell good food, in favour of big chains that sell plastic food.

When I'm doing a long road trip, I take the exit to a nearby town when I
need a lunch break, especially if it's a town that I know from past
experience to have good food.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<n20e8ht0oh8irsg21nfsghi5ejgf1simk4@4ax.com>

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From: rich.ulr...@comcast.net (Rich Ulrich)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:50:44 -0400
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 by: Rich Ulrich - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:50 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 22:30:15 +0200, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:

>Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 19-May-22 5:27, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> > The phrase comes from the Second Amendment to the United States
>> > Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
>> > security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
>> > Arms, shall not be infringed."
>>
>> Well if it's bear arms you want, why not stick to some bells and a
>> pepper spray?
>
>Restricting it to what the founders knew about would also be fine.
>(so muzzle loading black powder muskets and pistols)
>

IIRC, some time back, SCOTUS refused to contemplate the
the strength of DNA evidence when it came to something-or-
other, maybe, asking for a new trial or dismissing a verdict.

I saw that decision compared to them deciding that the 2nd Amendment
only should apply to those weapons known at the time. That article
said "muzzle-loaders"; someone else claimed that "rifling" was not
in much use, but that it had been invented.

>Swords allowed too,

Yeah.

--
Rich Ulrich

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<bi0e8h56q7682s22hf3keca1hvel6sa8q8@4ax.com>

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 21:54:19 -0500
From: rich.ulr...@comcast.net (Rich Ulrich)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:54:19 -0400
Message-ID: <bi0e8h56q7682s22hf3keca1hvel6sa8q8@4ax.com>
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 by: Rich Ulrich - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:54 UTC

On Fri, 20 May 2022 11:19:48 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 19/05/22 22:16, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 10:37:11 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:38:23 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet
>>>> wrote:
>
>>>>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a "Valley
>>>>> Girl", not a senior citizen in NJ?
>>>>
>>>> So Americanisms are another thing you're not up on. It is not
>>>> pronounced as an initialism; it is simply "oh, my God!"
>>>> expressing incredulity.
>>>
>>> I have heard (young) people say "oh em gee".
>>
>> Last night, watching a TV program, two different women said "oh em
>> gee". The program is a Canadian production set in Toronto.
>>
>> They were mothers at a party for one mother's child's first
>> birthday.
>
>Social media - Usenet and its successors - are to blame for this. In
>online discussions it's natural to create abbreviations for common
>phrases. Eventually newcomers arrive who have little or no knowledge of
>the original phrase, and know only the abbreviation.
>
>It's very possible that some of the OMG users have no idea that gods
>were originally being invoked.

I think of it as another euphemism. They did expressed themselves
while avoiding the explicit blasphemy that many people still avoid.

--
Rich Ulrich

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Fri, 20 May 2022 04:39 UTC

Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 20:55:32 UTC+2, Tony Cooper a écrit :
> > > On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:02:12 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
> > > <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > >Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 18:17:05 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:57:39 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > > >> > On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> > > >> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > >> > >On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:00:55 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
>
> > > >> > >> There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said it as an
> > > >> > >> intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be pleased to learn that I
> > > >> > >> have had no success in my search for a Youtube clip of her.
> > > >> > >Is that kaff or kaffay?
> > > >> > "kaffay". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfVCQjLYek
> > > >> Contradicting what has been said here about the usual pronunciation
> > > >> of that word in BrE.
> > > >You seem to be confused. "kaff" is the pronunciation of "caf" (an
> > > >existing colloquial abbreviation), never of café". See e.g.
> > > >--- > >Caf definition
> > > >(...)
> > > >(colloquial) Café
> > > >https://www.yourdictionary.com/caf
> > > I think that's understood by both PTD and by me. Those spellings
> > > merely represent how the words are pronounced. In text, the normal
> > > spelling of cafe/café would be used. If "caf" is represented in text,
> > > I'd do it as "caff", though.
> >
> > But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> > in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?

My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Fri, 20 May 2022 05:12 UTC

Le vendredi 20 mai 2022 à 00:06:10 UTC+2, Quinn C a écrit :
> * Mark Brader:
> > Peter Moylan:
> >>> To get to my present house, you have to make five left turns. (And no
> >>> right turns: the route sort of spirals in to my home.)
> >
> > Anders Nygaard:
> >> I may have mentioned this before:
> >> In our last move, we could leave our old house, drive around 14 km while
> >> turning right nine times, and park the car just outside our new home.
> >
> > I recall a time when a friend drove me from the University of Waterloo
> > (Ontario) to my parents' apartment in what is now Toronto. The last
> > part of the trip was eastbound on highway 401[*], southbound on 427[*]
> > to Dundas St., then east on Dundas, east on Bloor St., north one block
> > on Islington Av., east one block on Aberfoyle Cr., and finally north
> > on Lomond Dr.
> >
> > And his comment, having made the trip with me before, was that it
> > involved *12 consecutive places where a lane change to the right
> > was required*, starting where highway 401 adds collector lanes
> > approaching 427.
> >
> > I have not attempted to verify how many would be required now.
> >
> > [*] I don't say "the 401" even if others do.
> In Quebec, it's certainly not unusual to add "the".
>
> | The Quebec French expression "à l'autre bout de la 20" (in English, at
> | the other end of the 20) refers to Montreal when the speaker is in
> | Quebec City, and to Quebec City when one is in Montreal.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Autoroute_20>
>
> Or:
>
> <https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/just-listen-to-the-music-of-the-traffic-in-the-city-but-avoid-ville-marie-and-the-20/>
>
> I'm not sure whether there's influence from French in this.
>
> Next: buses. I have the 51 and the 66 just steps from my door. In local
> French, it's "la 51",

Interesting, I didn't know that. The only explanation I can
think of is that "ligne", not "bus", is implied ("la ligne 51").

> whereas in France I believe it's more likely to be
> called "le 51".

Indeed, the reference is always to the bus itself.
>
> --
> - There's someone here wanting to audition. - OK, Who is he?
> - Well, it's not exactly a he. - OK, Who is she?
> - Well, it's not exactly a she. ... it's sort of a they.
> - You mean there's more than one? - Not really.
> - Good grief, it's a triple-header.
> -> <https://muppet.fandom.com/wiki/Tom,_Dick,_and_Harry>

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t679ft$1g86$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: h.i...@b.ou (Hibou)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 06:38:05 +0100
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 by: Hibou - Fri, 20 May 2022 05:38 UTC

Le 19/05/2022 à 15:23, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:56:11 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 18/05/2022 à 14:39, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 2:11:06 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> [...]
>>>> Well, it isn't a question of learning to talk like an American, but of
>>>> observing how Americans talk. Listeners are going to be sensitive to
>>>> where that differs from their own dialect.
>>>
>>> It certainly is when it's an actor trying to be believed as an American
>>> character.
>>
>> Is that what actors do in native (small n) American productions, made
>> for the home market and then exported? Why would they do that?
>
> I don't know what that refers to. Are you talking about British characters
> in American TV shows?

No, no, no! How slow you are to understand!

My apologies. This is frustrating.

> Lots and lots of British actors, complete with
> their native dialects, live in the US (both NY and L.A., where most TV shows
> are made), and they get those roles. (Not to mention those special visas
> made available to big West End stars so they can reprise their roles on
> Broadway.)
>
>> It it what Americans do in quiz shows, when they are interviewed as
>> experts, when they are journalists reporting from the back or front of
>> beyond... - try to be believed as American characters?
>
> I do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
>
> What do people talking have to do with British actors who are not
> believable as American characters?

Sigh! Let's take it very slowly and clearly.

Britons are exposed to a great deal of American speech in the material
that America exports to us. Let's take films, for instance, and let's
take the leading broadcaster here, the BBC. What does it have in stock
at the moment?

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/categories/films/a-z>

'47 Meters Down: Uncaged' USA 2019
'A Damsel in Distress' USA 1937
'A Farewell to Arms' USA 1933
'All Stars' UK 2013
'Amundsen' Norway + others 2019
'Angel Face' USA 1953
'Anne of Green Gables' USA 1935
'Anne of Windy Poplars' USA 1940
'Any One of Us' USA + others 2020
'A Simple Plan' USA 1998
....

Eight out of the first ten. Point? Look at the other film channels, Film
4 for example. It's the same story.

<https://www.freeview.co.uk/tv-guide>

Let's guess that the average Briton watches two American films a week. A
screenplay is about 24,000 words ('Gladiator' 14k, 'Blue Velvet' 27k,
'MASH' 30k), and suppose half of this is dialogue. The aforesaid Briton
listens to 24k / 2 * 2 = 24,000 words of American speech from this
source each week, which is 1.2 M words a year, 12 M words a decade, and
that over several decades (about 60 M words in 50 years).

This is just one type of material - there are also TV series etc. - and
such exposure is how British people come to be thoroughly acquainted
with American speech patterns.

>> A wise person, faced with an assertion that seems unlikely, will ask for
>> a source or evidence to back it up. If the assertion turns out to be
>> well founded, one has not then committed oneself to a flat
>> contradiction, which may end up looking stupid.
>
> Did you offer any "evidence" that the expressions you claimed were
> "Eastpondian" do not occur in "Westpondian"?

I think you're confused. What I said was (of 'good' as a reply to "How
are you?": "I think it's an example of linguistic inflation. Britons
aren't immune to it, but I think Americans indulge in it more."

Linguistic inflation is the substitution of stronger words and phrases
for standard ones in an attempt to make commonplace thoughts more
interesting.

'Linguistic Inflation In The English Language' -
<https://www.expressproofreading.com/linguistic-inflation-in-the-english-language/>
-

"Linguistic inflation concerns a devaluation of the meaning of words
over time. It is something that has increased in prevalence over recent
years with the compounded effects of the 24 hour media, social media,
instant messaging, and influences from the United States, where there is
often much more enthusiasm within speech than is common in the UK. [...]
Below we will discuss some examples of how linguistic inflation could
cause a negative impact on the standard of your writing."

As if to illustrate the point, in the last sentence the author uses the
word 'impact' instead of saying "... could have a negative effect on";
'impact' is, of course, stronger than 'effect' and is widely used by
linguistic inflators.

Example: 'give 110%' (what can that mean?). GNV traces its rise back to
~1960 in American English, to ~1974 in British English. Its frequency in
2019 was ~2 x 10¯⁷ in AmE, ~8 x 10¯⁸ in BrE.

Voilà. I have a theory as to why this should be so, but I'm not sure
you're ready for it.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t679hs$1g86$2@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: h.i...@b.ou (Hibou)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 06:39:08 +0100
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 by: Hibou - Fri, 20 May 2022 05:39 UTC

Le 18/05/2022 à 15:29, CDB a écrit :
>
> owls are so obsessed with categories, you'd think they were mice.

If so, stuffed owls have met their comeuppance, when taxonomist met
taxidermist.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<20220520081827.e0b90be2d8c855d607652a04@127.0.0.1>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Fri, 20 May 2022 07:18 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 21:49:25 +0100
Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

> On 19/05/2022 9:32 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > The roughest aspect of Weston-super-Mare was underfoot when we were
> > there in 1984. Our daughter and son wanted to get into the water, but
> > - Floridians that they were - expected a sandy beach. "Shingle", in
> > this context, is defined as "a mass of small, rounded pebbles", but
> > what they encountered was a mass of pointed rocks".
>
> Rocks! Tha should consider thaself looky, lad. Most uvuss oo go
> to Weston gets noothin' but mud, lad. Mud, mud, and more mud, for
> miles and miles and miles.

OO's been there recently? It was stinky "mud" at that (probably a % of untreated sewage). Caveat: this was back WIWAL and my parents had some kind of idea that Weston-super-Mud was some kind of glamorous place.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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From: char...@candehope.me.uk (charles)
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
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 by: charles - Fri, 20 May 2022 07:25 UTC

In article <AaBhK.888442$xr1.233271@fx02.ams1>,
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> On 19-May-22 21:30, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 19-May-22 5:27, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>> The phrase comes from the Second Amendment to the United States
> >>> Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
> >>> security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
> >>> Arms, shall not be infringed."
> >>
> >> Well if it's bear arms you want, why not stick to some bells and a
> >> pepper spray?
> >
> > Restricting it to what the founders knew about would also be fine.
> > (so muzzle loading black powder muskets and pistols)
> >
> > Swords allowed too,

> I would hold off on all of those until there is a bit more progress on
> that Militia.
> Who is responsible for doing the regulating?

surely the National Guard is the modern replacement for 'militia'. Their
weapons are stored safely in armories.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<1ps8yhi.17gt26bcmbiedN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 10:03:28 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Fri, 20 May 2022 08:03 UTC

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 May 2022 22:30:15 +0200, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder) wrote:
>
> >Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 19-May-22 5:27, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> > The phrase comes from the Second Amendment to the United States
> >> > Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
> >> > security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
> >> > Arms, shall not be infringed."
> >>
> >> Well if it's bear arms you want, why not stick to some bells and a
> >> pepper spray?
> >
> >Restricting it to what the founders knew about would also be fine.
> >(so muzzle loading black powder muskets and pistols)
> >
>
> IIRC, some time back, SCOTUS refused to contemplate the
> the strength of DNA evidence when it came to something-or-
> other, maybe, asking for a new trial or dismissing a verdict.
>
> I saw that decision compared to them deciding that the 2nd Amendment
> only should apply to those weapons known at the time. That article
> said "muzzle-loaders"; someone else claimed that "rifling" was not
> in much use, but that it had been invented.

IIRC rifling was invented long before the American revolution.
It was used primarily for expensive hunting weapons though,
where accuracy mattered. (for the rich)
Military musketry relied on firing volleys, as rapidly as possible,
usually at massed targets, so throw weight was more important. [1]

> >Swords allowed too,
>
> Yeah.

Perhaps there could be a concealed carry act for daggers?

Anyway, those weapons were adequate.
Those founding fathers and their followers
had no problem killing each other in duels with them,

Jan

[1] Yes, I know.
There are some exaggerated and poorly documented myths
about American snipers with long rifled guns
being all important in the war of independence
by selectively killing British generals.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<1ps8zbi.m4hx2tjbk3r2N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 10:03:29 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Fri, 20 May 2022 08:03 UTC

Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 6:21:57 PM UTC-6, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> > On 19-May-22 21:30, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 19-May-22 5:27, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > >>> The phrase comes from the Second Amendment to the United States
> > >>> Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
> > >>> security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
> > >>> Arms, shall not be infringed."
> > >>
> > >> Well if it's bear arms you want, why not stick to some bells and a
> > >> pepper spray?
> > >
> > > Restricting it to what the founders knew about would also be fine.
> > > (so muzzle loading black powder muskets and pistols)
> > >
> > > Swords allowed too,
>
> > I would hold off on all of those until there is a bit more progress on
> > that Militia.
> > Who is responsible for doing the regulating?
>
> Quis regulabit ipsos regulatores? Or whatever it would be.

Your ersatz king of course, who is also commander in chief,

Jan

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<20220520091142.f704b5c074d2ebfb1dbef377@127.0.0.1>

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:11:42 +0100
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Fri, 20 May 2022 08:11 UTC

On Fri, 20 May 2022 11:45:14 +1000
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 20/05/22 05:58, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > On Thu, 19 May 2022 20:13:25 +0100 Richard Heathfield
> > <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >> We have such places, but we don't call them "transport cafes". They
> >> are normally on motorways and are known as "motorway services".
> >> Generally run as part of a chain: Moto, RoadChef, Welcome Break,
> >> Granada, etc. Expensive, with plastic food. Transport "caffs" are
> >> typically independent, cheap and cheerful affairs with rather more
> >> tempting (but still cholesterol-laden) fare.
> >>
> > And the latter are possibly extinct. I've not seen one for 3
> > decades.
>
> In Australia those traditional places were private businesses - hotels,
> junk food shops, cafes, and so on - that took advantage of their
> location on a busy highway. Frequent highway users, most particularly
> truck drivers, worked out which ones were worth stopping at, and the
> news spread by word of mouth. If you saw several trucks parked outside a
> nondescript building, you'd know that that place probably did good
> hamburgers or other lunch possibilities.
>
> Over time, though, the biggest highways were upgraded, often to
> limited-access roads. Towns were bypassed, and those old
> side-of-the-highway places lost customers.
>
> When a major freeway is built, you can't just set up shop at the side of
> the road. The road authorities control who gets the rights to sell food
> at the "services" stops, and that squeezes out the mum-and-dad shops
> that sell good food, in favour of big chains that sell plastic food.
>
> When I'm doing a long road trip, I take the exit to a nearby town when I
> need a lunch break, especially if it's a town that I know from past
> experience to have good food.

Peculiarly, we have Tebay services in the ^w on the approach to th Lake District; this is family run.

Not long after we got a motorway system a chap wrote "Just off the Motorway" to direct people to better eating and cheaper fuel options. I guess people use google or Satnavs these days.

Ah there's a website (a bit spartan)
https://www.justoffjunction.co.uk/

aha!
A bit (42years! -Ed) dated (1980) but nice descriptions (scenic spots as well as essentials)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Just-Off-Motorway-John-Slater/dp/0330255746

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<sAgNXQffc4hiFAOP@wolff.co.uk>

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From: bounc...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk (Paul Wolff)
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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
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 by: Paul Wolff - Fri, 20 May 2022 12:18 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022, at 06:34:54, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 5:13:22 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022, at 09:33:05, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
>> >"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 4:17:18 PM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> >> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> >> > > > are willing to laugh at themselves, and, having read Shute's works,
>> >> > > > perhaps some of his fondness for the place has rubbed off.
>> >> > > Of course. Australia has never felt an urge to throw off the yoke of
>> >> > > British imperialism.
>> >> > At least they haven't (so far) started out on their own imperialism.
>> [big gap]
>> >> Someone seems not to have kept up with South Pacific current events.
>> >Fair enough. We seem to focus on the Ukraine & Boris, though Strange
>> >Going Ons in the US intrude,
>>
>> A recent puzzle was why the BBC promoted to its No. 1 news item some
>> weeks ago a leaked draft judgement of the American Supreme Court on the
>> matter of whether abortion was covered by their constitution. I mean -
>> as a British news headline, that's got everything wrong with it.
>> Foreign, underhand provenance, irrelevant to British interests. Would
>> they report a leaked draft ruling of Iranian mullahs on the same subject
>> in the Iranian constitution? No, of course they wouldn't.
>
>Could it have anything to do with public opinion?
>
>Could it have anything to do with freedom of expression?
>
>Could it be that nothing like it happened in the previous 232 years?

How much do you think the answers to any of these questions about leaked
American constitutional goings-on are of great moment to the British
public?
>
>> >I think mostly because Brit reporters would like a job in the US.
>>
>> You old cynic.

Or because the British reporters over there are (a) many, and (b)
spoon-fed stories which are easy for them to send back home without
trouble. But still, that doesn't explain why those stories are then
trumpeted out by the Beeb relay service.
--
Paul

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Fri, 20 May 2022 12:35 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 5:51:30 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 2:02:16 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 18:17:05 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:57:39 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>> > On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >>> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>> > >On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:00:55 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:

> >>> > >> There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said it as an
> >>> > >> intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be pleased to learn that I
> >>> > >> have had no success in my search for a Youtube clip of her.
> >>> > >Is that kaff or kaffay?
> >>> > "kaffay". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfVCQjLYek
> >>> Contradicting what has been said here about the usual pronunciation
> >>> of that word in BrE.
> >> You seem to be confused. "kaff" is the pronunciation of "caf" (an
> >> existing colloquial abbreviation), never of café". See e.g.
> > Where do you see an acute accent in anything CDB, I, or Tony wrote,
> > or in the 30-second (not 32nd) promo Tony linked to?
> > How many times do you have to be told that English is not French?
>
> Can you justify "caf" as a pronunciation of "cafe" without explaining it
> as a *French* silent e at the end?

No, but I don't need to, since in AmE we say "kaffAY" whether it has
an acute or not.

> "Cayf" would make some sense.

Tell it to the Brits.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Fri, 20 May 2022 12:43 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:50:46 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/05/22 23:34, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 5:13:22 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>
> >> A recent puzzle was why the BBC promoted to its No. 1 news item
> >> some weeks ago a leaked draft judgement of the American Supreme
> >> Court on the matter of whether abortion was covered by their
> >> constitution. I mean - as a British news headline, that's got
> >> everything wrong with it. Foreign, underhand provenance,
> >> irrelevant to British interests. Would they report a leaked draft
> >> ruling of Iranian mullahs on the same subject in the Iranian
> >> constitution? No, of course they wouldn't.
> >
> > Could it have anything to do with public opinion?
> >
> > Could it have anything to do with freedom of expression?
> >
> > Could it be that nothing like it happened in the previous 232 years?
>
> Those three questions are questions about the American nation. They are
> not relevant to news reporting in other countries.
>
> As seen from outside, the story is one about the US Supreme Court having
> turned into an ultra-conservative club. From our point of view, the
> important questions are things like "How can we stop this from happening
> in our country?". The finer details are things for Americans to decide.

Thus they are very much not "irrelevant to British interests." You wouldn't
be suggesting we shouldn't study any aspect of world history other than
that of our own limited region, are you? That's exactly the mindset of
those promoting so-called "conservative values."

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Fri, 20 May 2022 12:47 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:

> > > But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> > > in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> > I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
>
> My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".

In French.

In American English.

Not necessarily, however, in British English.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Fri, 20 May 2022 13:13 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:38:12 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 19/05/2022 à 15:23, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:56:11 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> >> Le 18/05/2022 à 14:39, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 2:11:06 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> > [...]
> >>>> Well, it isn't a question of learning to talk like an American, but of
> >>>> observing how Americans talk. Listeners are going to be sensitive to
> >>>> where that differs from their own dialect.
> >>> It certainly is when it's an actor trying to be believed as an American
> >>> character.
> >> Is that what actors do in native (small n) American productions, made
> >> for the home market and then exported? Why would they do that?
> > I don't know what that refers to. Are you talking about British characters
> > in American TV shows?
>
> No, no, no! How slow you are to understand!
>
> My apologies. This is frustrating.
>
> > Lots and lots of British actors, complete with
> > their native dialects, live in the US (both NY and L.A., where most TV shows
> > are made), and they get those roles. (Not to mention those special visas
> > made available to big West End stars so they can reprise their roles on
> > Broadway.)
> >> It it what Americans do in quiz shows, when they are interviewed as
> >> experts, when they are journalists reporting from the back or front of
> >> beyond... - try to be believed as American characters?
> > I do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
> > What do people talking have to do with British actors who are not
> > believable as American characters?
>
> Sigh! Let's take it very slowly and clearly.
>
> Britons are exposed to a great deal of American speech in the material
> that America exports to us. Let's take films, for instance, and let's
> take the leading broadcaster here, the BBC. What does it have in stock
> at the moment?
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/categories/films/a-z>
>
> '47 Meters Down: Uncaged' USA 2019
> 'A Damsel in Distress' USA 1937
> 'A Farewell to Arms' USA 1933
> 'All Stars' UK 2013
> 'Amundsen' Norway + others 2019
> 'Angel Face' USA 1953
> 'Anne of Green Gables' USA 1935
> 'Anne of Windy Poplars' USA 1940
> 'Any One of Us' USA + others 2020
> 'A Simple Plan' USA 1998
> ...
>
> Eight out of the first ten. Point? Look at the other film channels, Film
> 4 for example. It's the same story.

Almost all American movies of the 1930s ("talking pictures")
were populated by actors trained for the stage, and they used
an accent that might charitably be called "Mid-Atlantic." It wasn't
until the rise of such stars as Cagney, Gable, and Bogart that
American accents were prominently heard in American movies
(setting aside such stars as Muni and Robinson who came of
age in the Yiddish theater).

I've never heard of any of the ones you list from 1940 on.

> <https://www.freeview.co.uk/tv-guide>
>
> Let's guess that the average Briton watches two American films a week. A
> screenplay is about 24,000 words ('Gladiator' 14k, 'Blue Velvet' 27k,
> 'MASH' 30k), and suppose half of this is dialogue. The aforesaid Briton
> listens to 24k / 2 * 2 = 24,000 words of American speech from this
> source each week, which is 1.2 M words a year, 12 M words a decade, and
> that over several decades (about 60 M words in 50 years).
>
> This is just one type of material - there are also TV series etc. - and
> such exposure is how British people come to be thoroughly acquainted
> with American speech patterns.

Do you not understand, or do you not believe the fact at hand, which has
been told to you by others here as well? Merely being exposed to another
dialect does not make someone able to speak with that dialect. Almost
all the features that make someone "sound British" or "sound American"
are not consciously accessible to someone who has not had phonetic
training (or, more crudely, "dialect coaching"). The English actors who
pretend in British TV productions to portray "American" characters almost
always fail to speak with an accent remotely resembling any American one.
Most obvious is their continuing to use the LOT vowel instead of the PALM
vowel. I already mentioned the exaggerated r's -- maybe they were especially
impacted by a Canadian at some point.

> >> A wise person, faced with an assertion that seems unlikely, will ask for
> >> a source or evidence to back it up. If the assertion turns out to be
> >> well founded, one has not then committed oneself to a flat
> >> contradiction, which may end up looking stupid.
> > Did you offer any "evidence" that the expressions you claimed were
> > "Eastpondian" do not occur in "Westpondian"?
>
> I think you're confused. What I said was (of 'good' as a reply to "How
> are you?": "I think it's an example of linguistic inflation. Britons
> aren't immune to it, but I think Americans indulge in it more."

No, what you said is that a couple of expressions were Eastpondian
versus equivalents in Westpondian. One was "fine" vs. "good," one
was "I've eaten" vs. "I already ate." You were simply wrong to claim that
the supposed "Eastpondian" ones don't occur in "Westpondian."

> Linguistic inflation is the substitution of stronger words and phrases
> for standard ones in an attempt to make commonplace thoughts more
> interesting.

As in the example I gave from C. S. Lewis. When I read it I had never
encountered "storm in a teacup," but I did subsequently.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Fri, 20 May 2022 13:40 UTC

Le vendredi 20 mai 2022 à 14:47:24 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
> > > > But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> > > > in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> > > I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> >
> > My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> > as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> In French.
>
> In American English.
>
> Not necessarily, however, in British English.

You haven't supported that claim and no native BrE-speakers
here have confirmed it. The only transpondian difference
in pronunciation is the shift of the stress from the first
(BrE) to the second (AmE) syllable. Besides, none of the BrE
dictionaries I've checked list "kaf" as a possible pronunciation
for café/cafe. Conclusion: if youdid happen to hear "kaf", it must
have been for the abbreviation "caf".

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<6ab98099-a698-4500-a6a8-e5170fb10da0n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Fri, 20 May 2022 13:49 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:40:54 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le vendredi 20 mai 2022 à 14:47:24 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:

> > > > > But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> > > > > in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> > > > I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> > > My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> > > as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> > In French.
> > In American English.
> > Not necessarily, however, in British English.
>
> You haven't supported that claim and no native BrE-speakers
> here have confirmed it. The only transpondian difference
> in pronunciation is the shift of the stress from the first
> (BrE) to the second (AmE) syllable.

The BrE pronunciation is more "authentic"? The stress shift
occurred in AmE?!?!?!?!

> Besides, none of the BrE
> dictionaries I've checked list "kaf" as a possible pronunciation
> for café/cafe. Conclusion: if youdid happen to hear "kaf", it must
> have been for the abbreviation "caf".

I should not be humoring your chauvinistic delusions, but how do
you detect the spelling of something someone says? How does
anyone know they're hearing an "abbreviation"?

English STILL is not French.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<3d2e9f08-dcb9-40bd-83cb-8b2d9be0c5a5n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
From: beberc...@aol.com (Bebercito)
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 by: Bebercito - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:02 UTC

Le vendredi 20 mai 2022 à 15:49:25 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:40:54 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le vendredi 20 mai 2022 à 14:47:24 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:39:19 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > > Le jeudi 19 mai 2022 à 23:09:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 4:53:55 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
> > > > > > But ptd seems to think that "kaff" is a possible BrE pronunciation
> > > > > > in "Le Café" (see upthread), whereas it's not.
> > > > > I'll ask again. Where the hell do you see "Le Café"?
> > > > My mistake, it was "The Cafe", but that doesn't change anything
> > > > as "café" and "cafe" are pronounced the same , i.e. as "kaffay".
> > > In French.
> > > In American English.
> > > Not necessarily, however, in British English.
> >
> > You haven't supported that claim and no native BrE-speakers
> > here have confirmed it. The only transpondian difference
> > in pronunciation is the shift of the stress from the first
> > (BrE) to the second (AmE) syllable.
> The BrE pronunciation is more "authentic"? The stress shift
> occurred in AmE?!?!?!?!

My use of "shift" didn't imply that either pronunciation
predated the other, just that the stress was on two
different syllables.

> > Besides, none of the BrE
> > dictionaries I've checked list "kaf" as a possible pronunciation
> > for café/cafe. Conclusion: if youdid happen to hear "kaf", it must
> > have been for the abbreviation "caf".
> I should not be humoring your chauvinistic delusions, but how do
> you detect the spelling of something someone says? How does
> anyone know they're hearing an "abbreviation"?

Well duh, precisely because that abbreviation has a distinct
pronunciation from its full-form counterpart.

>
> English STILL is not French.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t6873h$n7n$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 10:03:27 -0400
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 by: CDB - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:03 UTC

On 5/19/2022 2:02 PM, Bebercito wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> CDB wrote:

>>>>> There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said it as
>>>>> an intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be pleased to
>>>>> learn that I have had no success in my search for a Youtube
>>>>> clip of her.
>>>> Is that kaff or kaffay?

>>> "kaffay". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfVCQjLYek
>> Contradicting what has been said here about the usual
>> pronunciation of that word in BrE.

> You seem to be confused. "kaff" is the pronunciation of "caf" (an
> existing colloquial abbreviation), never of café". See e.g.

> --- Caf definition

> (...)

> (colloquial) Café

> https://www.yourdictionary.com/caf ---

Peter's uncertainty could be my fault. When I mentioned the title, I
left out the accent; WP had one in its article but IMDEb didn't, so I
had a choice.

>>> Set in Weston-super-Mare, and a quite watchable series, but
>>> cancelled after Series 2 in 2013. I think it was shown by our
>>> local PBS station in 2019 or 2020. British shows often take the
>>> slow boat to the US.
>> We're now having *Packed to the Rafters*. Something someone said in
>> it last week suggested it might be Australian, but they don't have
>> Australian accents (for the international market?), but Wikip says
>> it is, 2008-13.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t687hm$tdd$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 10:11:00 -0400
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 by: CDB - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:11 UTC

On 5/19/2022 5:51 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels:
>> Bebercito wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>> CDB wrote:

>>>>>>> There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said
>>>>>>> it as an intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be
>>>>>>> pleased to learn that I have had no success in my search
>>>>>>> for a Youtube clip of her.
>>>>>> Is that kaff or kaffay?
>>>>> "kaffay". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfVCQjLYek
>>>> Contradicting what has been said here about the usual
>>>> pronunciation of that word in BrE.

>>> You seem to be confused. "kaff" is the pronunciation of "caf"
>>> (an existing colloquial abbreviation), never of café". See e.g.

>> Where do you see an acute accent in anything CDB, I, or Tony
>> wrote, or in the 30-second (not 32nd) promo Tony linked to?

>> How many times do you have to be told that English is not French?

> Can you justify "caf" as a pronunciation of "cafe" without explaining
> it as a *French* silent e at the end?

One could cite "coupe de ville".

> "Cayf" would make some sense.

That was no cayf, that was a rat's cooler.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t687p4$tdd$2@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 10:14:59 -0400
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 by: CDB - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:14 UTC

On 5/19/2022 4:18 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> CDB wrote:
>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>>>> Hibou wrote>>> Peter T. Daniels a écrit:

>>>>>> In reply to Hibou
>>>>>>>> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.

>>>>>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a
>>>>>> "Valley Girl", not a senior citizen in NJ?

>>>>> So Americanisms are another thing you're not up on. It is
>>>>> not pronounced as an initialism; it is simply "oh, my God!"
>>>>> expressing incredulity.

>>>> There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said it as
>>>> an intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be pleased to learn
>>>> that I have had no success in my search for a Youtube clip of
>>>> her.

>>> Is that kaff or kaffay?

>> "kaffay". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfVCQjLYek

>> Set in Weston-super-Mare, and a quite watchable series, but
>> cancelled after Series 2 in 2013. I think it was shown by our
>> local PBS station in 2019 or 2020. British shows often take the
>> slow boat to the US.

> I haven't been to Weston for some time, so I googled to refresh the
> memory.

> Google offers answers to questions you haven't asked (and almost
> certainly would never have asked). One of these said:

> "Is Weston-super-Mare rough?"

> "Weston-Super-Mare is the second most dangerous major town in
> Somerset"

> But if you follow the link, it will also tell you that Weston is:

> "the 779th most dangerous location out of all towns, cities, and
> villages [in the UK]."

It's a zleepy old county.

Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence

<t6887k$17n9$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=131935&group=alt.usage.english#131935

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An interlingual phonetic coincidence
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 10:22:43 -0400
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 by: CDB - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:22 UTC

On 5/19/2022 4:32 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> CDB wrote:
>>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>>>>> Hibou wrote>>> Peter T. Daniels a écrit:

>>>>>>> In reply to Hibou
>>>>>>>>> OMG. The Bill of Rights was written in 1790.

>>>>>>> Surely "OMG" is an exclamation one would expect from a
>>>>>>> "Valley Girl", not a senior citizen in NJ?

>>>>>> So Americanisms are another thing you're not up on. It is
>>>>>> not pronounced as an initialism; it is simply "oh, my God!"
>>>>>> expressing incredulity.

>>>>> There was a supporting character in _The Cafe_ who said it as
>>>>> an intitalism, with emphasis. Some here may be pleased to
>>>>> learn that I have had no success in my search for a Youtube
>>>>> clip of her.

>>>> Is that kaff or kaffay?

>>> "kaffay". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfVCQjLYek

>>> Set in Weston-super-Mare, and a quite watchable series, but
>>> cancelled after Series 2 in 2013. I think it was shown by our
>>> local PBS station in 2019 or 2020. British shows often take the
>>> slow boat to the US.

>> I haven't been to Weston for some time, so I googled to refresh the
>> memory.
>>
>> Google offers answers to questions you haven't asked (and almost
>> certainly would never have asked). One of these said:

>> "Is Weston-super-Mare rough?"

>> "Weston-Super-Mare is the second most dangerous major town in
>> Somerset"

>> But if you follow the link, it will also tell you that Weston is:

>> "the 779th most dangerous location out of all towns, cities, and
>> villages [in the UK]."

> The roughest aspect of Weston-super-Mare was underfoot when we were
> there in 1984. Our daughter and son wanted to get into the water,
> but - Floridians that they were - expected a sandy beach. "Shingle",
> in this context, is defined as "a mass of small, rounded pebbles",
> but what they encountered was a mass of pointed rocks".

Did they retreat with a melancholy long withdrawing roar?

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