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interests / alt.usage.english / Re: for him to lose

SubjectAuthor
* for him to losearthurvv vart
+- Re: for him to losePeter T. Daniels
`* Re: for him to loseKen Blake
 `* Re: for him to losespains...@gmail.com
  `* Re: for him to loseDavid Kleinecke
   `* Re: for him to loseJerry Friedman
    +- Re: for him to losearthurvv vart
    `- Re: for him to loseCDB

1
for him to lose

<51efdc7c-a024-4a77-93a7-f1e983bbd6c3n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: for him to lose
From: arthurv...@gmail.com (arthurvv vart)
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 by: arthurvv vart - Sun, 22 May 2022 00:05 UTC

1) For him to lose would be a great thing.
2) It would be a great thing for him to lose.

3) For him, to lose would be a great thing.

I think '3' is unambiguous and means:
a) He will benefit greatly from losing.

How about '1' and '2'?

I think they are ambiguous. They might mean the same thing as '3' (by far the likelier meaning) or they might mean

b) It would be great if he loses. (maybe not for him, but for me, for us. for the world at large...)

Do you find '1' and '2' ambiguous?
What is your take on this?

Gratefully,
Navi

Re: for him to lose

<aa33e869-1f95-4b90-8fbf-33f7bee590b9n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: for him to lose
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Sun, 22 May 2022 13:23 UTC

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:05:16 PM UTC-4, arthurvv vart wrote:
> 1) For him to lose would be a great thing.
> 2) It would be a great thing for him to lose.
>
> 3) For him, to lose would be a great thing.
>
> I think '3' is unambiguous and means:
> a) He will benefit greatly from losing.
>
> How about '1' and '2'?
>
> I think they are ambiguous. They might mean the same thing as '3' (by far the likelier meaning) or they might mean
>
> b) It would be great if he loses. (maybe not for him, but for me, for us. for the world at large...)
>
> Do you find '1' and '2' ambiguous?
> What is your take on this?

Use real sentences.

(2) says you don't want him to have ":it" any more, the structure of
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

Re: for him to lose

<tmjk8h9pveh1n4bkccsarif6c3fjj77k3u@4ax.com>

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: for him to lose
Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 07:56:29 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Sun, 22 May 2022 14:56 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:05:14 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
<arthurvarr@gmail.com> wrote:

>1) For him to lose would be a great thing.
>2) It would be a great thing for him to lose.
>
>3) For him, to lose would be a great thing.
>
>I think '3' is unambiguous and means:
>a) He will benefit greatly from losing.
>
>How about '1' and '2'?
>
>I think they are ambiguous. They might mean the same thing as '3' (by far the likelier meaning) or they might mean
>
>b) It would be great if he loses. (maybe not for him, but for me, for us. for the world at large...)
>
>Do you find '1' and '2' ambiguous?
>What is your take on this?

All three are OK, but #2 is the most straightforward, and would be
preferred by almost everyone.

Re: for him to lose

<baf9a432-7d6c-4d04-a4ef-466c8f051058n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: for him to lose
From: spainsha...@gmail.com (spains...@gmail.com)
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 by: spains...@gmail.com - Sun, 22 May 2022 20:54 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:56:34 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:05:14 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >1) For him to lose would be a great thing.
> >2) It would be a great thing for him to lose.
> >
> >3) For him, to lose would be a great thing.
> >
> >I think '3' is unambiguous and means:
> >a) He will benefit greatly from losing.
> >
> >How about '1' and '2'?
> >
> >I think they are ambiguous. They might mean the same thing as '3' (by far the likelier meaning) or they might mean
> >
> >b) It would be great if he loses. (maybe not for him, but for me, for us. for the world at large...)
> >
> >Do you find '1' and '2' ambiguous?
> >What is your take on this?
> All three are OK, but #2 is the most straightforward, and would be
> preferred by almost everyone.

Yes.

Re: for him to lose

<8f02d04d-fcf4-4c90-a54f-0f2ad69b79ebn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: for him to lose
From: dkleine...@gmail.com (David Kleinecke)
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 by: David Kleinecke - Sun, 22 May 2022 21:00 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:54:35 PM UTC-7, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:56:34 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:05:14 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> > <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >1) For him to lose would be a great thing.
> > >2) It would be a great thing for him to lose.
> > >
> > >3) For him, to lose would be a great thing.
> > >
> > >I think '3' is unambiguous and means:
> > >a) He will benefit greatly from losing.
> > >
> > >How about '1' and '2'?
> > >
> > >I think they are ambiguous. They might mean the same thing as '3' (by far the likelier meaning) or they might mean
> > >
> > >b) It would be great if he loses. (maybe not for him, but for me, for us. for the world at large...)
> > >
> > >Do you find '1' and '2' ambiguous?
> > >What is your take on this?
> > All three are OK, but #2 is the most straightforward, and would be
> > preferred by almost everyone.
> Yes.

I think most USans would prefer "him losing" to "for him to lose".

Or is that "his losing"?

Re: for him to lose

<64200159-08ae-4eae-b81c-d9fecad90126n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: for him to lose
From: jerry_fr...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
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 by: Jerry Friedman - Sun, 22 May 2022 21:38 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:00:44 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:54:35 PM UTC-7, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:56:34 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
> > > On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:05:14 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> > > <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >1) For him to lose would be a great thing.
> > > >2) It would be a great thing for him to lose.
> > > >
> > > >3) For him, to lose would be a great thing.
> > > >
> > > >I think '3' is unambiguous and means:
> > > >a) He will benefit greatly from losing.
> > > >
> > > >How about '1' and '2'?
> > > >
> > > >I think they are ambiguous. They might mean the same thing as '3' (by far the likelier meaning) or they might mean
> > > >
> > > >b) It would be great if he loses. (maybe not for him, but for me, for us. for the world at large...)
> > > >
> > > >Do you find '1' and '2' ambiguous?
> > > >What is your take on this?
> > > All three are OK, but #2 is the most straightforward, and would be
> > > preferred by almost everyone.
> > Yes.
> I think most USans would prefer "him losing" to "for him to lose".
>
> Or is that "his losing"?

Or "It would be great if he lost."

I agree that 1 and 2 could mean losing would be good for him, or just
good in general, and the "in general" meaning seems more likely. And
I agree with PTD that 2 could also mean that his losing a certain thing,
referred to as "It" in this sentence, would be good.

--
Jerry Friedman

Re: for him to lose

<89b9c252-ec3f-494c-b2ff-49f4ed56b46cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: for him to lose
From: arthurv...@gmail.com (arthurvv vart)
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 by: arthurvv vart - Mon, 23 May 2022 01:42 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:38:13 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:00:44 PM UTC-6, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:54:35 PM UTC-7, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:56:34 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:05:14 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> > > > <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >1) For him to lose would be a great thing.
> > > > >2) It would be a great thing for him to lose.
> > > > >
> > > > >3) For him, to lose would be a great thing.
> > > > >
> > > > >I think '3' is unambiguous and means:
> > > > >a) He will benefit greatly from losing.
> > > > >
> > > > >How about '1' and '2'?
> > > > >
> > > > >I think they are ambiguous. They might mean the same thing as '3' (by far the likelier meaning) or they might mean
> > > > >
> > > > >b) It would be great if he loses. (maybe not for him, but for me, for us. for the world at large...)
> > > > >
> > > > >Do you find '1' and '2' ambiguous?
> > > > >What is your take on this?
> > > > All three are OK, but #2 is the most straightforward, and would be
> > > > preferred by almost everyone.
> > > Yes.
> > I think most USans would prefer "him losing" to "for him to lose".
> >
> > Or is that "his losing"?
> Or "It would be great if he lost."
>
> I agree that 1 and 2 could mean losing would be good for him, or just
> good in general, and the "in general" meaning seems more likely. And
> I agree with PTD that 2 could also mean that his losing a certain thing,
> referred to as "It" in this sentence, would be good.
>
> --
> Jerry Friedman

Thank you all very much,

It is really good to see Jerry around. Thanks.

Peter, I thought I was good at spotting ambiguity, but I had not seen that one. I think most people would have missed that meaning. Thanks.

Respectfully,
Navi

Re: for him to lose

<t6l0mr$1lnu$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: for him to lose
Date: Wed, 25 May 2022 06:34:02 -0400
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 by: CDB - Wed, 25 May 2022 10:34 UTC

On 5/22/2022 5:38 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
>> spains...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> arthurvv vart <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> 1) For him to lose would be a great thing. 2) It would be a
>>>>> great thing for him to lose. 3) For him, to lose would be a
>>>>> great thing.

>>>>> I think '3' is unambiguous and means: a) He will benefit
>>>>> greatly from losing.

>>>>> How about '1' and '2'?

>>>>> I think they are ambiguous. They might mean the same thing
>>>>> as '3' (by far the likelier meaning) or they might mean

>>>>> b) It would be great if he loses. (maybe not for him, but
>>>>> for me, for us. for the world at large...)

>>>>> Do you find '1' and '2' ambiguous? What is your take on
>>>>> this?
>>>> All three are OK, but #2 is the most straightforward, and
>>>> would be preferred by almost everyone.
>>> Yes.
>> I think most USans would prefer "him losing" to "for him to lose".

>> Or is that "his losing"?

> Or "It would be great if he lost."

> I agree that 1 and 2 could mean losing would be good for him, or just
> good in general, and the "in general" meaning seems more likely. And
> I agree with PTD that 2 could also mean that his losing a certain
> thing, referred to as "It" in this sentence, would be good.

AISI, '2' could also mean that "it" is a thing whose loss would be
significant to him: "great" as in "big".

interests / alt.usage.english / Re: for him to lose

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