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interests / rec.games.roguelike.nethack / Re: prepare for altar plane

SubjectAuthor
* prepare for altar planeIsidore Ducasse
`* Re: prepare for altar planeJanis Papanagnou
 `* Re: prepare for altar planeIsidore Ducasse
  `* Re: prepare for altar planeJanis Papanagnou
   `* Re: prepare for altar planeIsidore Ducasse
    `* Re: prepare for altar planeJanis Papanagnou
     `* Re: prepare for altar planePat Rankin
      `* Re: prepare for altar planeIsidore Ducasse
       `* Re: prepare for altar planeJanis Papanagnou
        +* Re: prepare for altar planePat Rankin
        |`* Re: prepare for altar planeJanis Papanagnou
        | `* Re: prepare for altar planePat Rankin
        |  `* Re: prepare for altar planeJanis Papanagnou
        |   `* Re: prepare for altar planeB. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
        |    `* Re: prepare for altar planeJanis Papanagnou
        |     `* Re: prepare for altar planeB. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
        |      `* Practical effects of changed corridor layouts (was Re: prepare forJanis Papanagnou
        |       `- Re: Practical effects of changed corridor layouts (was Re: prepare for altar plaB. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
        `- Re: prepare for altar planeIsidore Ducasse

1
prepare for altar plane

<t5vghk$1tk6$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: lautream...@inria.fr (Isidore Ducasse)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: prepare for altar plane
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 06:49:24 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Isidore Ducasse - Tue, 17 May 2022 06:49 UTC

NH36 Bar close to enter the plane of water,
I've got 2 wish left and I'd like to get before the portal:

- scrolls of charging for my wands of death and wish
- scroll of genocide to wipe out sea monsters
- scroll of enchant armor to improve my AC (it's -30 now)
- keep a wish for a half-eaten chickatrice corpse when entering the
Astral Plane

Shall I wish for a marker? Is it possible to get all of this with
just one marker?

Thanks!
ID

Re: prepare for altar plane

<t60d70$9t$1@dont-email.me>

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From: janis_pa...@hotmail.com (Janis Papanagnou)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 16:58:39 +0200
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 by: Janis Papanagnou - Tue, 17 May 2022 14:58 UTC

On 17.05.2022 08:49, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> NH36 Bar close to enter the plane of water,
> I've got 2 wish left and I'd like to get before the portal:
>
> - scrolls of charging for my wands of death and wish
> - scroll of genocide to wipe out sea monsters

That genocide might not be necessary if you are careful.

> - scroll of enchant armor to improve my AC (it's -30 now)

The AC might be sufficient if you avoid to get surrounded by hordes
of tough creatures.

You know you may also wish for, say, two scrolls of TYPE, getting
one or two as a result.

> - keep a wish for a half-eaten chickatrice corpse when entering the
> Astral Plane
>
> Shall I wish for a marker? Is it possible to get all of this with
> just one marker?

If you ask whether it is possible then the answer is yes.
If you mean to ask whether it is guaranteed then the answer is no.

Since you already survived the Plane of Air and Fire you may want
to rethink about your wishing priorities.

Avoiding melee makes AC less important. Use of wands of teleport at
the inhabitants (not at the Riders!) helps a lot. Personally (in
NH-343) I very much liked to have the spell of jumping at the Astral
Plane; what's the spell success rate for your Barbarian for level 1
spells?

Janis

Re: prepare for altar plane

<t60lkt$1jdu$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: lautream...@inria.fr (Isidore Ducasse)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 17:22:37 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Isidore Ducasse - Tue, 17 May 2022 17:22 UTC

Thanks for your hints, I think I'll just wish for the chickatrice
and try 2 scrolls of charging for my wand of death.

I'm really not sure about jumping, my Bar has never cast any single
spell; with conflict, it should be OK; I hope conflict works also on the
Riders :-)

I'm going to still read a bit as this stage is rather unknown to me...

Thanks
ID

> That genocide might not be necessary if you are careful.
>
>> - scroll of enchant armor to improve my AC (it's -30 now)
>
> The AC might be sufficient if you avoid to get surrounded by hordes
> of tough creatures.
>
> You know you may also wish for, say, two scrolls of TYPE, getting
> one or two as a result.
>
>> - keep a wish for a half-eaten chickatrice corpse when entering the
>> Astral Plane
>>
>> Shall I wish for a marker? Is it possible to get all of this with
>> just one marker?
>
> If you ask whether it is possible then the answer is yes.
> If you mean to ask whether it is guaranteed then the answer is no.
>
> Since you already survived the Plane of Air and Fire you may want
> to rethink about your wishing priorities.
>
> Avoiding melee makes AC less important. Use of wands of teleport at
> the inhabitants (not at the Riders!) helps a lot. Personally (in
> NH-343) I very much liked to have the spell of jumping at the Astral
> Plane; what's the spell success rate for your Barbarian for level 1
> spells?
>
> Janis
>

Re: prepare for altar plane

<t60q4r$m18$1@dont-email.me>

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From: janis_pa...@hotmail.com (Janis Papanagnou)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 20:39:23 +0200
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 by: Janis Papanagnou - Tue, 17 May 2022 18:39 UTC

On 17.05.2022 19:22, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> Thanks for your hints, I think I'll just wish for the chickatrice
> and try 2 scrolls of charging for my wand of death.

This is actually what I am doing now in Slashem when playing
non-lawful characters; it's indeed very effective (on Air and
on Astral) and for sure works well in Nethack too.

>
> I'm really not sure about jumping, my Bar has never cast any single
> spell; with conflict, it should be OK;

I noticed (in Nethack) that high-level spell-restricted roles
may also cast basic spells; it very much depends on the armor.

> I hope conflict works also on the
> Riders :-)

Conflict is fine, but I'm not sure how much the riders will be
affected.

Another (non-conflict) approach is to use magic whistled pets
as shield, but might not work any more in NH-36x where riders
circumvent monsters (probably including pets - but not sure).
In Slashem this works well together with the c'trice corpse
approach.

Janis

Re: prepare for altar plane

<t63i5q$10up$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: lautream...@inria.fr (Isidore Ducasse)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 19:41:46 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Isidore Ducasse - Wed, 18 May 2022 19:41 UTC

I have bad luck: 2nd altar and it's still not the good one !
Now, I have to pass again via Pestilence and then Death, got
only wands death(1:1) and wish(1:2): I'd prefer 2 death charges
to pass Pestilence: shall I wish for a wand of death, or wish for
a scroll of charging ? (I guess first option)

And I really don't know how to pass Death: my Mjollnir, AC-30 and 180HP
are not enough I think...

ID

On 2022-05-17, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 17.05.2022 19:22, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
>> Thanks for your hints, I think I'll just wish for the chickatrice
>> and try 2 scrolls of charging for my wand of death.
>
> This is actually what I am doing now in Slashem when playing
> non-lawful characters; it's indeed very effective (on Air and
> on Astral) and for sure works well in Nethack too.
>
>>
>> I'm really not sure about jumping, my Bar has never cast any single
>> spell; with conflict, it should be OK;
>
> I noticed (in Nethack) that high-level spell-restricted roles
> may also cast basic spells; it very much depends on the armor.
>
>> I hope conflict works also on the
>> Riders :-)
>
> Conflict is fine, but I'm not sure how much the riders will be
> affected.
>
> Another (non-conflict) approach is to use magic whistled pets
> as shield, but might not work any more in NH-36x where riders
> circumvent monsters (probably including pets - but not sure).
> In Slashem this works well together with the c'trice corpse
> approach.
>
> Janis
>

Re: prepare for altar plane

<t64478$jo5$1@dont-email.me>

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From: janis_pa...@hotmail.com (Janis Papanagnou)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 02:49:43 +0200
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 by: Janis Papanagnou - Thu, 19 May 2022 00:49 UTC

On 18.05.2022 21:41, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> I have bad luck: 2nd altar and it's still not the good one !
> Now, I have to pass again via Pestilence and then Death, got
> only wands death(1:1) and wish(1:2): I'd prefer 2 death charges
> to pass Pestilence: shall I wish for a wand of death, or wish for
> a scroll of charging ? (I guess first option)

Since you can wish for 2 or 3 scrolls the latter seems more appealing
to me. - Not guaranteed that you get 2 or 3, and chances are reduced
the higher the number you ask for, but 1 scroll is always guaranteed,
so I'd probably wish for 2 scrolls.

>
> And I really don't know how to pass Death: my Mjollnir, AC-30 and 180HP
> are not enough I think...

Unless things changed after NH-343, I noticed that while Death is very
dangerous (in reducing your maxHP), he was the one showing the least
resistance for high damage. With high level two-weaponing characters
he typically fell in two turns. Mjollnir appears not too good because
of Death's shock-resistance. Have you some means of ranged attacks?

I also want to remember what I said about avoiding melee if possible.
Ranged attacks, conflict (if only to keep the priests and angels busy),
jumping (for that it's good to have 'a' and 'S' genocided as they are
summoned by priests), and wands of teleportation to free corridors for
faster movement.

Not sure about NH-36x, but in NH-343 I sometimes wished for a helm of
opposite alignment, specifically if I want to avoid meeting the riders
a second time; this might help if you already visited two altars.

Good luck and be careful!

Janis

Re: prepare for altar plane

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Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
From: r.pat.ra...@gmail.com (Pat Rankin)
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 by: Pat Rankin - Thu, 19 May 2022 04:05 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 5:49:46 PM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> Not sure about NH-36x, but in NH-343 I sometimes wished for a helm of
> opposite alignment, specifically if I want to avoid meeting the riders
> a second time; this might help if you already visited two altars.

For lawful or chaotic characters, they are still effectively the
same, switching you from lawful to chaotic or vice versa and
becoming cursed in the process.

For neutral characters, any given helm of opposite alignment
will always change you to lawful or change you to chaotic.
Uncursing the helm and trying again won't yield a different
outcome. The only way to tell which way a particular helm
will change your alignment is to try it on.

Normally ascending gets a score bonus of double the amount
you would have earned. If you do change alignment (either
via conversion or helm) and offer the Amulet to a different
deity than the one who sent you on the mission to obtain it,
the score bonus for ascending will be less: only one and half
times what you earned rather than double. That's essentially
to show the game's intent rather than an expectation that it
will dissuade many players from shortcutting the final level.

Re: prepare for altar plane

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From: lautream...@inria.fr (Isidore Ducasse)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 17:58:27 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Isidore Ducasse - Thu, 19 May 2022 17:58 UTC

It was much easier than I thought, Death died in 4 aklys hits;
conflict, wands of death and teleport and chickatrice made it a breeze!
finally, after 1.5 yr playing, my first ascension :-)

Thank you all for your hints...

Re: prepare for altar plane

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From: janis_pa...@hotmail.com (Janis Papanagnou)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 20:28:40 +0200
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 by: Janis Papanagnou - Thu, 19 May 2022 18:28 UTC

On 19.05.2022 19:58, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
> It was much easier than I thought, Death died in 4 aklys hits;
> conflict, wands of death and teleport and chickatrice made it a breeze!
> finally, after 1.5 yr playing, my first ascension :-)

Congrats! - And I am impressed that you ascended with an alkys!
No artifact? - Do you want to elaborate on that weapon choice?

Janis

Re: prepare for altar plane

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Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
From: r.pat.ra...@gmail.com (Pat Rankin)
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 by: Pat Rankin - Thu, 19 May 2022 19:05 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:28:43 AM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> Congrats! - And I am impressed that you ascended with an alkys!
> No artifact? - Do you want to elaborate on that weapon choice?

Version 3.6.1 and later: wielded aklys has the throw-and-return
property like a Valkyrie using Mjollnir with 25 strength.

A wielded aklys is attached to your wrist by a cord, at least
conceptually, to be yanked back after being thrown. That's
automatic; it has the same 1% chance to fail to return as
Mjollnir, and separate 1% chance to fail to be caught and
re-wielded when it does come back, also same as Mjollnir.
When wielded, the imaginary cord reduces the throwing
range to half of that for a normal projectile of similar weight.
(If not wielded, it has full throwing range but won't come
back--just an ordinary thrown item.)

Multi-shot throwing can dish out a lot more damage but
you need to collect or abandon the missiles afterward.

Re: prepare for altar plane

<t6652a$1cg2$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: lautream...@inria.fr (Isidore Ducasse)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 19:16:26 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Isidore Ducasse - Thu, 19 May 2022 19:16 UTC

On 2022-05-19, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 19.05.2022 19:58, Isidore Ducasse wrote:
>> It was much easier than I thought, Death died in 4 aklys hits;
>> conflict, wands of death and teleport and chickatrice made it a breeze!
>> finally, after 1.5 yr playing, my first ascension :-)
>
> Congrats! - And I am impressed that you ascended with an alkys!
> No artifact? - Do you want to elaborate on that weapon choice?

Thank you! from the beginning, I had Mjollnir for melee (but I couldn't
throw it and get it back, not sure why, may be because I was chaotic
Bar) so the blessed fixed aklys +5 for range attacks: I liked it because
it's always coming back; with gauntlets of power (not sure they increase
damages actually).With speed boots, I could always stay at distance, I never
tried to get something better because I never was disappointed with the
ranged aklys, and I don't know if there's actually better range weapon in my
case...

Re: prepare for altar plane

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From: janis_pa...@hotmail.com (Janis Papanagnou)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:20:44 +0200
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 by: Janis Papanagnou - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:20 UTC

On 19.05.2022 21:05, Pat Rankin wrote:
>
> Version 3.6.1 and later: wielded aklys has the throw-and-return
> property like a Valkyrie using Mjollnir with 25 strength.

Ah, okay. (Now I faintly remember to have heard about that but
obviously forgot it.)

>
> A wielded aklys is attached to your wrist by a cord, at least
> conceptually, to be yanked back after being thrown. That's
> automatic; it has the same 1% chance to fail to return as
> Mjollnir, and separate 1% chance to fail to be caught and
> re-wielded when it does come back, also same as Mjollnir.

Without the negative electric damage effect, I suppose, that may
destroy important wands and rings.

> [...]
>
> Multi-shot throwing can dish out a lot more damage but
> you need to collect or abandon the missiles afterward.

Isn't there an auto-pickup option in NH-36x to avoid wasted turns?
I seem to recall that NAO's NH-343 had it and Slashem has it, too.

Janis

Re: prepare for altar plane

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Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
From: r.pat.ra...@gmail.com (Pat Rankin)
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 by: Pat Rankin - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:55 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:20:47 PM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> On 19.05.2022 21:05, Pat Rankin wrote:
>> Multi-shot throwing can dish out a lot more damage but
>> you need to collect or abandon the missiles afterward.
>
> Isn't there an auto-pickup option in NH-36x to avoid wasted turns?
> I seem to recall that NAO's NH-343 had it and Slashem has it, too.

Pick-up is not the issue; walking to where your target(s) were
at the time of the throw(s) when you'd be better off walking
somewhere else is.

Re: prepare for altar plane

<t66eqt$bqv$1@dont-email.me>

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From: janis_pa...@hotmail.com (Janis Papanagnou)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 00:03:09 +0200
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 by: Janis Papanagnou - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:03 UTC

On 19.05.2022 23:55, Pat Rankin wrote:
> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:20:47 PM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
>> On 19.05.2022 21:05, Pat Rankin wrote:
>>> Multi-shot throwing can dish out a lot more damage but
>>> you need to collect or abandon the missiles afterward.
>>
>> Isn't there an auto-pickup option in NH-36x to avoid wasted turns?
>> I seem to recall that NAO's NH-343 had it and Slashem has it, too.
>
> Pick-up is not the issue; walking to where your target(s) were
> at the time of the throw(s) when you'd be better off walking
> somewhere else is.

Hmm.. - this is something I would rarely consider; if I want to
go "somewhere else" then I wouldn't start ranged attacks in the
direction where I don't want to go, instead I wouldn't waste the
throw-missile-turns, but just leave. The usual case when I throw
missiles, and specifically on Astral, I want to pass that monster
that I attacked with missile. At other places and other situations
I take the route to auto-pickup the missiles after the situation
is cleared. (At least that are the typical cases in my games.)

Janis

Re: prepare for altar plane

<yz5x5faqrsak.dlg@br-ederson.eternal-september.org>

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From: use.repl...@this.is.invalid (B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 06:49:52 +0200
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 by: B. R. 'BeAr - Fri, 20 May 2022 04:49 UTC

On Fri, 20 May 2022 00:03:09 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> On 19.05.2022 23:55, Pat Rankin wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:20:47 PM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
>>> On 19.05.2022 21:05, Pat Rankin wrote:
>>>> Multi-shot throwing can dish out a lot more damage but
>>>> you need to collect or abandon the missiles afterward.
>>>
>>> Isn't there an auto-pickup option in NH-36x to avoid wasted turns?
>>> I seem to recall that NAO's NH-343 had it and Slashem has it, too.
>>
>> Pick-up is not the issue; walking to where your target(s) were
>> at the time of the throw(s) when you'd be better off walking
>> somewhere else is.
>
> Hmm.. - this is something I would rarely consider; if I want to
> go "somewhere else" then I wouldn't start ranged attacks in the
> direction where I don't want to go, instead I wouldn't waste the
> throw-missile-turns, but just leave.

If a horde of monsters is following you (that are faster or might be
catching up with you later on, anyways), it is often a good idea to
clear out as many as possible from range before running in the opposite
direction. - That, at least, is my usual style of playing...

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

Re: prepare for altar plane

<t67tma$4bg$1@dont-email.me>

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From: janis_pa...@hotmail.com (Janis Papanagnou)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 13:22:49 +0200
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 by: Janis Papanagnou - Fri, 20 May 2022 11:22 UTC

On 20.05.2022 06:49, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
>
> If a horde of monsters is following you (that are faster or might be
> catching up with you later on, anyways), it is often a good idea to
> clear out as many as possible from range before running in the opposite
> direction. - That, at least, is my usual style of playing...

A horde, and if they are faster(!); you have less chances to escape
if you waste turns for (ranged or other) attacks. Sounds not to be a
good idea, rather the opposite. In that case the first goal would be
to reach a place (like a corridor) where you cannot get surrounded
or (like stairs) where you can escape in dire need.

If you are confident to kill all creatures by ranged attack then you'd
just do it and collect your thrown missiles when the job is done.

One aspect to consider is when you cannot kill them all and have to
come back, then it would be an incentive to try to kill some of them
before you leave; but that would better be done from a safe (escapable)
place. But in that case the "goal" to collect your missiles again (as
presumed upthread) is not first priority. We have to decide; do we need
our projectiles in short term for other targets, then I wouldn't throw
them in the first place, or do we have enough of them to spend them
and leave the place (and the missiles) to come back later to get them.

Tactics in practice may of course involve other means (e.g. Elbereth)
as well. But the optimal missile handling seems quite obvious, though.
Another use-case are use of poisoned missiles, depending on your stats
it may be advisable to throw them, or not (if intelligent monsters
throw them back at you), while you continue your attacks or rest on a
safe engraving.

Janis

>
> BeAr
>

Re: prepare for altar plane

<8ec4wfyg9kmf$.dlg@br-ederson.eternal-september.org>

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From: use.repl...@this.is.invalid (B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: prepare for altar plane
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 18:01:33 +0200
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 by: B. R. 'BeAr - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:01 UTC

On Fri, 20 May 2022 13:22:49 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> On 20.05.2022 06:49, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
>>
>> If a horde of monsters is following you (that are faster or might be
>> catching up with you later on, anyways), it is often a good idea to
>> clear out as many as possible from range before running in the opposite
>> direction. - That, at least, is my usual style of playing...
>
> A horde, and if they are faster(!); you have less chances to escape
> if you waste turns for (ranged or other) attacks. Sounds not to be a
> good idea, rather the opposite.

Depends. If you are near the exit of a room and monsters just enter
from a door on the other side of the room (the entry point being in
a straight line from your current position, which makes monsters move
straight into your line of shooting), you can reduce them a good
deal (if you are sufficiently skilled with ranged weapons), before
retreating in the exit corridor and finishing the last few, that
arrive shortly afterwards for hand-to-hand combat.

> In that case the first goal would be to reach a place (like a corridor)
> where you cannot get surrounded

If the corridor is straight for a long way, it is possible to use above
approach just in reverse. (Which I often do.) But if the corridor is not
straight (and maybe even is linked to a second door), the first approach
works better in my experience.

The first approach is also statistically safer, when the retreat is /not/
known to be monster-less, because when you directly run into another enemy,
the /whole/ process will become a fight hand-to-hand. - First, against the
new monster(s), shortly later against the whole original horde, which will
arrive beside you, while you are fighting the new monster(s). - Although
one after another, if you are in a straight corridor.

Of course, /starting/ with ranged fight may /also/ proof fatal, if the new
monsters are tough and manage to pour outside the intended exit door in
great numbers.- Everything is possible with Nethack... ;-)

> If you are confident to kill all creatures by ranged attack then you'd
> just do it and collect your thrown missiles when the job is done.

I usually try to carry enough ranged weapons to not being a major part
of the over-all weight, but also to not being missed when not being
recollected, immediately.

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

Practical effects of changed corridor layouts (was Re: prepare for altar plane)

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From: janis_pa...@hotmail.com (Janis Papanagnou)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Practical effects of changed corridor layouts (was Re: prepare for
altar plane)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 15:48:48 +0200
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 by: Janis Papanagnou - Sat, 21 May 2022 13:48 UTC

We've exchanged our experiences on ranged attacks and fleeing tactics.
Your following statement triggered a related thought with possibly
broader effects/impacts, therefore I changed the subject.

On 20.05.2022 18:01, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
>
> If the corridor is straight for a long way, it is possible to use above
> approach just in reverse. (Which I often do.) But if the corridor is not
> straight (and maybe even is linked to a second door), the first approach
> works better in my experience.

For ranged fighting straight corridors are ideal, but even the typical
(NH-343 version) zig-zac corridors are sufficiently appropriate for
ranged attacks if shooting diagonally. The corridor layout generation
has changed in NH-36x, though. Ranged attacks are likely not any more
that fruitful, effectively degrading the value of that attack feature.

What are your experiences in NH-36x concerning fights in corridors?
Are there other noteworthy or relevant (positive/negative) impacts of
the new corridor layout (e.g. with boulders)?

Janis

Re: Practical effects of changed corridor layouts (was Re: prepare for altar plane)

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From: use.repl...@this.is.invalid (B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
Subject: Re: Practical effects of changed corridor layouts (was Re: prepare for altar plane)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 17:46:20 +0200
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 by: B. R. 'BeAr - Sat, 21 May 2022 15:46 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 15:48:48 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> For ranged fighting straight corridors are ideal, but even the typical
> (NH-343 version) zig-zac corridors are sufficiently appropriate for
> ranged attacks if shooting diagonally. The corridor layout generation
> has changed in NH-36x, though. Ranged attacks are likely not any more
> that fruitful, effectively degrading the value of that attack feature.

IMHO, the decisions usually are not that different between both basic
versions. Take this layout as an example, which could have been from
v343 as well as from v366:

--------- -----
| | ######= =##
| | # | |
| =### -----
k @ |#
| =#
---------

If my character is well-trained in ranged attacks, I'd always try to
pin the approaching horde of bees from my current position, until the
"time" for fleeing through the upper right door is about to run out.
(No better place in sight for avoiding hand-to-hand combat.)

This early-game example does not differ much from considerations in
deeper areas of the dungeons. Quickly reducing a threat from afar
usually (but not always, of course) beats running and encountering
all of them later on in unreduced number.
> What are your experiences in NH-36x concerning fights in corridors?
> Are there other noteworthy or relevant (positive/negative) impacts of
> the new corridor layout (e.g. with boulders)?

The v36x layout is more divers, with more openings and dead ends. The
former increase the risk of being surrounded even outside rooms. The
latter may bring an escape run to an untimely end. IMHO, instant
rescue methods (teleport, digging, cursed potion of gain level) are
(even) more important now.

Irregular corridor layout also increases risk of reflection from wands.

On the plus side: With the higher number of dead ends, it often is now
easier to trap nurses for a little dance or two. - Which is especially
nice on non-teleport levels... ;-)

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

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