"The issue came up during a White House briefing.

Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election," to which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be competitive.

"Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's administration."

https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html

Can anyone explain?
Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?

ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
>
> Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election,"
> to which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> competitive.
>
> "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's
> administration."
>
> https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
>
> Can anyone explain?
> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?

Let me paraphrase Henry Ford [A]: Russians can elect can elect any
president they like as long as it is Putin. All you can get is some
restraint in mocking "elections" with results not set by (or in favor
of) USA.

[A] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Henry_Ford
> "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long
> as it is black."
> p. 72. Chapter IV, : Remark about the Model T in 1909; […]

--
A. Filip
| You've been telling me to relax all the way here, and now you're
| telling me just to be myself? (The Return of the Secaucus Seven)

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 10:07:52 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> ltlee1 wrote:
> > "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
> >
> > Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election,"
> > to which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> > competitive.
> >
> > "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> > it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's
> > administration."
> >
> > https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
> >
> > Can anyone explain?
> > Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> Let me paraphrase Henry Ford [A]: Russians can elect can elect any
> president they like as long as it is Putin.

Let me rephrase Ford,
"Anyone can have a car painted any color that he wants. Well made
and revolutionary inexpensive Model-T, however, only comes in black."

Why do you really think Americans bought 15 million+ Model T Fords, a
record until the 1970s just because Henry Ford's saying?

> All you can get is some
> restraint in mocking "elections" with results not set by (or in favor
> of) USA.

If Kirby really knows election would produce less capable leaders in Russia
because of competitive issue, he was not making the issue loud and clear.

>
> [A] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Henry_Ford
> > "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long
> > as it is black."
> > p. 72. Chapter IV, : Remark about the Model T in 1909; […]
>
> --
> A. Filip
> | You've been telling me to relax all the way here, and now you're
> | telling me just to be myself? (The Return of the Secaucus Seven)

ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 10:07:52 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
>> ltlee1 wrote:
>> > "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
>> >
>> > Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election,"
>> > to which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
>> > competitive.
>> >
>> > "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
>> > it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's
>> > administration."
>> >
>> > https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
>> >
>> > Can anyone explain?
>> > Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
>> Let me paraphrase Henry Ford [A]: Russians can elect can elect any
>> president they like as long as it is Putin.
>
> Let me rephrase Ford,
> "Anyone can have a car painted any color that he wants. Well made
> and revolutionary inexpensive Model-T, however, only comes in black."
>
> Why do you really think Americans bought 15 million+ Model T Fords, a
> record until the 1970s just because Henry Ford's saying?

Where there is no choice say it straight.

>> All you can get is some restraint in mocking "elections" with results
>> not set by (or in favor of) USA.
>
> If Kirby really knows election would produce less capable leaders in Russia
> because of competitive issue, he was not making the issue loud and clear.

Russian have no real chance to elect e.g. a leader with higher risk aversion."
I would not elect Putin but I am not Russian.

Anyway: Is Russia more democratic than Saudi Kingdom? :-)

--
A. Filip
| To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
| (Thomas Edison)

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 1:48:41 AM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> ltlee1 <ltl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 10:07:52 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> >> ltlee1 wrote:
> >> > "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
> >> >
> >> > Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election,"
> >> > to which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> >> > competitive.
> >> >
> >> > "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> >> > it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's
> >> > administration."
> >> >
> >> > https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
> >> >
> >> > Can anyone explain?
> >> > Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> >> Let me paraphrase Henry Ford [A]: Russians can elect can elect any
> >> president they like as long as it is Putin.
> >
> > Let me rephrase Ford,
> > "Anyone can have a car painted any color that he wants. Well made
> > and revolutionary inexpensive Model-T, however, only comes in black."
> >
> > Why do you really think Americans bought 15 million+ Model T Fords, a
> > record until the 1970s just because Henry Ford's saying?
> Where there is no choice say it straight.

Or, Model T was then the best choice for millions of Americans.
In case you don't know much about Henry Ford, try this:
https://www.npr.org/2014/01/27/267145552/the-middle-class-took-off-100-years-ago-thanks-to-henry-ford

"But Ford was playing a deeper, longer game. The Ford Motor Company was in the business of
building an expensive durable good. The first cars he had built in number, the 1903 Model N, cost
about $3,000, and so were accessible only to that era’s one percent.. Henry Ford recognized that the
automobile would be more successful as a volume business than as a niche product. “I would build
a motorcar for the great multitudes,” he proclaimed. Through relentless innovation, vertical integration,
and the obsessive development of an assembly line, Ford had already managed to bring the cost of
the Model T, the first democratic car, down to about $500. And the company was moving about
250,000 cars a year. "

> >> All you can get is some restraint in mocking "elections" with results
> >> not set by (or in favor of) USA.
> >
> > If Kirby really knows election would produce less capable leaders in Russia
> > because of competitive issue, he was not making the issue loud and clear.
> Russian have no real chance to elect e.g. a leader with higher risk aversion."

How so?
Henry Ford was taking great risk by paying his workers $5 a day. High wage and
assembly line and associated innovations enabled the US middle class to take off
about 110 years ago.

> I would not elect Putin but I am not Russian.
>
> Anyway: Is Russia more democratic than Saudi Kingdom? :-)

Feel free to belittle Russian and Saudi democracy. One thing, however, is clear.
Competitive elections in the US fails to prevent the shrinking of the middle class.

"The middle class, once the economic stratum of a clear majority of American adults,
has steadily contracted in the past five decades. The share of adults who live in middle-
class households fell from 61% in 1971 to 50% in 2021, according to a new Pew Research
Center analysis of government data."

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/

>
> --
> A. Filip
> | To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> | (Thomas Edison)

ltlee1, <news:16a146da-f4b8-4cb6-9c15-4fc42676409bn@googlegroups.com>

> "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
>
> Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election," to
> which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> competitive.
>
> "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's administration."
>
> https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
>
> Can anyone explain?
> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?

There is a linguistic issue.

The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice from
several variants, implying them on about the same scale of significance
(hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a (s)election but some
another word should be used. The standard patch to solve the issue is
to add some certanly unchoosable variants, imagining them choosable.

Further, it leads to the RPG ("role-playing games") field.

"Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> wrote:
> ltlee1, <news:16a146da-f4b8-4cb6-9c15-4fc42676409bn@googlegroups.com>
>
>> "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
>>
>> Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election," to
>> which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
>> competitive.
>>
>> "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
>> it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's administration."
>>
>> https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
>>
>> Can anyone explain?
>> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
>
> There is a linguistic issue.
>
> The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice from
> several variants, implying them on about the same scale of significance
> (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a (s)election but some
> another word should be used. The standard patch to solve the issue is
> to add some certanly unchoosable variants, imagining them choosable.
> […]

<cynicism> Politically you can spin that Russian elections will be as
democratic as third and forth term elections of Franklin Delano
Roosevelt. </cynicism>

--
A. Filip
| The modern child will answer you back before you've said anything.
| (Laurence J. Peter)

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:08:09 PM UTC, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> ltlee1, <news:16a146da-f4b8-4cb6...@googlegroups.com>
> > "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
> >
> > Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election," to
> > which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> > competitive.
> >
> > "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> > it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's administration."
> >
> > https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
> >
> > Can anyone explain?
> > Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> There is a linguistic issue.
>
> The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice from
> several variants, implying them on about the same scale of significance
> (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a (s)election but some
> another word should be used. The standard patch to solve the issue is
> to add some certanly unchoosable variants, imagining them choosable.

(S)Election does imply some kind of choice. Election, however, does not entail
competitiveness. Else, the descriptive competitive not be needed.

At this juncture of US history, I find it odd that Kirby would still see competitiveness
as essential to election. In contrast, the US would be better off if Biden could expect
a non-competitive election.

What if Biden said, "I came before you 4 years ago promising to do list(A, B, C...).
I did my job. America is a better country, American labor is more competitive and
Americans are happier people. I will seek a second term. I expect an easy win.
Since the election is not going to be competitive, I will not need a lot of campaign
donation. "

>
> Further, it leads to the RPG ("role-playing games") field.

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:55:34 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> "Oleg Smirnov" <os...@netc.eu> wrote:
> > ltlee1, <news:16a146da-f4b8-4cb6...@googlegroups.com>
> >
> >> "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
> >>
> >> Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election," to
> >> which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> >> competitive.
> >>
> >> "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> >> it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's administration.."
> >>
> >> https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
> >>
> >> Can anyone explain?
> >> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> >
> > There is a linguistic issue.
> >
> > The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice from
> > several variants, implying them on about the same scale of significance
> > (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a (s)election but some
> > another word should be used. The standard patch to solve the issue is
> > to add some certanly unchoosable variants, imagining them choosable.
> > […]
>
> <cynicism> Politically you can spin that Russian elections will be as
> democratic as third and forth term elections of Franklin Delano
> Roosevelt. </cynicism>

I will leave Russian and Saudi democracy to Russians and Saudi Arabians.

In the US, competitive election means candidates have to raise tons of money
from various donors. Just think: How would those billions of dollars be repaid
by whom and
in what manner?
>
> --
> A. Filip
> | The modern child will answer you back before you've said anything.
> | (Laurence J. Peter)

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 11:18:36 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:55:34 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> > "Oleg Smirnov" <os...@netc.eu> wrote:
> > > ltlee1, <news:16a146da-f4b8-4cb6...@googlegroups.com>
> > >
> > >> "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
> > >>
> > >> Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election," to
> > >> which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> > >> competitive.
> > >>
> > >> "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> > >> it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's administration."
> > >>
> > >> https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
> > >>
> > >> Can anyone explain?
> > >> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> > >
> > > There is a linguistic issue.
> > >
> > > The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice from
> > > several variants, implying them on about the same scale of significance
> > > (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a (s)election but some
> > > another word should be used. The standard patch to solve the issue is
> > > to add some certanly unchoosable variants, imagining them choosable.
> > > […]
> >
> > <cynicism> Politically you can spin that Russian elections will be as
> > democratic as third and forth term elections of Franklin Delano
> > Roosevelt. </cynicism>
> I will leave Russian and Saudi democracy to Russians and Saudi Arabians.

Very odd thing to say. Neither the Saudis nor the Russians have democracy at all.

> In the US, competitive election means candidates have to raise tons of money
> from various donors. Just think: How would those billions of dollars be repaid
> by whom and
> in what manner?

Wouldn't it be consistent to leave American democracy to Americans then? So silly.

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 3:01:33 AM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 11:18:36 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:55:34 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> > > "Oleg Smirnov" <os...@netc.eu> wrote:
> > > > ltlee1, <news:16a146da-f4b8-4cb6...@googlegroups.com>
> > > >
> > > >> "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
> > > >>
> > > >> Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election," to
> > > >> which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> > > >> competitive.
> > > >>
> > > >> "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> > > >> it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's administration."
> > > >>
> > > >> https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
> > > >>
> > > >> Can anyone explain?
> > > >> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> > > >
> > > > There is a linguistic issue.
> > > >
> > > > The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice from
> > > > several variants, implying them on about the same scale of significance
> > > > (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a (s)election but some
> > > > another word should be used. The standard patch to solve the issue is
> > > > to add some certanly unchoosable variants, imagining them choosable..
> > > > […]
> > >
> > > <cynicism> Politically you can spin that Russian elections will be as
> > > democratic as third and forth term elections of Franklin Delano
> > > Roosevelt. </cynicism>
> > I will leave Russian and Saudi democracy to Russians and Saudi Arabians..
> Very odd thing to say. Neither the Saudis nor the Russians have democracy at all.

Do you really know Saudis and Russians? Or are you regurgitating Western media mindlessly?
According to poll results, 53% of Saudis considered Saudi a democracy. In comparison, 49% of
Americans considered the US a democracy.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-26/which-nations-are-democracies-some-citizens-might-disagree

> > In the US, competitive election means candidates have to raise tons of money
> > from various donors. Just think: How would those billions of dollars be repaid
> > by whom and
> > in what manner?
> Wouldn't it be consistent to leave American democracy to Americans then? So silly.

Please reread the statement you are responding to. I wrote about what competitive
election means in the US. Are you sure you are not conflating election with democracy?

Ritualistic election is after all a mean to a democratic end. But then it becomes a show of
raising and then spending billions of dollar. And competitive election certainly makes an
more exciting horse-racing like show.

The issues raised by Kirby's comment are
1) whether he had conflated a mean with an end,
2) whether he knew competitive is not necessarily a good thing.

Actually, Thomas Carothers who tried "to explain the dispiriting descent of U.S. politics and governance
into pervasive paralysis, conflict and sheer mediocrity, " had assigned two out of five ills of US democracy
to competitive election.

"Elite capture: By opening up decision-making power to competition among politicians who are constantly
in need of money for elections, democratic systems are prone to becoming captured by the wealthy.

Division and conflict: Competitive elections foment or exacerbate destructive societal divisions, generating
conflict and undercutting a strong sense of national unity and purpose."

https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/01/16/is-democracy-problem-pub-78137

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 4:19:20 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 3:01:33 AM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 11:18:36 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:55:34 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> > > > "Oleg Smirnov" <os...@netc.eu> wrote:
> > > > > ltlee1, <news:16a146da-f4b8-4cb6...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >> "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election," to
> > > > >> which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> > > > >> competitive.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> > > > >> it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's administration."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Can anyone explain?
> > > > >> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a linguistic issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice from
> > > > > several variants, implying them on about the same scale of significance
> > > > > (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a (s)election but some
> > > > > another word should be used. The standard patch to solve the issue is
> > > > > to add some certanly unchoosable variants, imagining them choosable.
> > > > > […]
> > > >
> > > > <cynicism> Politically you can spin that Russian elections will be as
> > > > democratic as third and forth term elections of Franklin Delano
> > > > Roosevelt. </cynicism>
> > > I will leave Russian and Saudi democracy to Russians and Saudi Arabians.
> > Very odd thing to say. Neither the Saudis nor the Russians have democracy at all.
> Do you really know Saudis and Russians? Or are you regurgitating Western media mindlessly?
> According to poll results, 53% of Saudis considered Saudi a democracy. In comparison, 49% of
> Americans considered the US a democracy.
> https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-26/which-nations-are-democracies-some-citizens-might-disagree
> > > In the US, competitive election means candidates have to raise tons of money
> > > from various donors. Just think: How would those billions of dollars be repaid
> > > by whom and
> > > in what manner?
> > Wouldn't it be consistent to leave American democracy to Americans then? So silly.
> Please reread the statement you are responding to. I wrote about what competitive
> election means in the US. Are you sure you are not conflating election with democracy?
>
> Ritualistic election is after all a mean to a democratic end. But then it becomes a show of
> raising and then spending billions of dollar. And competitive election certainly makes an
> more exciting horse-racing like show.
>
> The issues raised by Kirby's comment are
> 1) whether he had conflated a mean with an end,
> 2) whether he knew competitive is not necessarily a good thing.
>
> Actually, Thomas Carothers who tried "to explain the dispiriting descent of U.S. politics and governance
> into pervasive paralysis, conflict and sheer mediocrity, " had assigned two out of five ills of US democracy
> to competitive election.
>
> "Elite capture: By opening up decision-making power to competition among politicians who are constantly
> in need of money for elections, democratic systems are prone to becoming captured by the wealthy.
>
> Division and conflict: Competitive elections foment or exacerbate destructive societal divisions, generating
> conflict and undercutting a strong sense of national unity and purpose."
>
> https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/01/16/is-democracy-problem-pub-78137

https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fotn&year=2023&country=SAU

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 4:19:20 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 3:01:33 AM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 11:18:36 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:55:34 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> > > > "Oleg Smirnov" <os...@netc.eu> wrote:
> > > > > ltlee1, <news:16a146da-f4b8-4cb6...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >> "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election," to
> > > > >> which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> > > > >> competitive.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> > > > >> it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's administration."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Can anyone explain?
> > > > >> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a linguistic issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice from
> > > > > several variants, implying them on about the same scale of significance
> > > > > (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a (s)election but some
> > > > > another word should be used. The standard patch to solve the issue is
> > > > > to add some certanly unchoosable variants, imagining them choosable.
> > > > > […]
> > > >
> > > > <cynicism> Politically you can spin that Russian elections will be as
> > > > democratic as third and forth term elections of Franklin Delano
> > > > Roosevelt. </cynicism>
> > > I will leave Russian and Saudi democracy to Russians and Saudi Arabians.
> > Very odd thing to say. Neither the Saudis nor the Russians have democracy at all.
> Do you really know Saudis and Russians? Or are you regurgitating Western media mindlessly?
> According to poll results, 53% of Saudis considered Saudi a democracy. In comparison, 49% of
> Americans considered the US a democracy.
> https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-26/which-nations-are-democracies-some-citizens-might-disagree
> > > In the US, competitive election means candidates have to raise tons of money
> > > from various donors. Just think: How would those billions of dollars be repaid
> > > by whom and
> > > in what manner?
> > Wouldn't it be consistent to leave American democracy to Americans then? So silly.
> Please reread the statement you are responding to. I wrote about what competitive
> election means in the US. Are you sure you are not conflating election with democracy?
>
> Ritualistic election is after all a mean to a democratic end. But then it becomes a show of
> raising and then spending billions of dollar. And competitive election certainly makes an
> more exciting horse-racing like show.
>
> The issues raised by Kirby's comment are
> 1) whether he had conflated a mean with an end,
> 2) whether he knew competitive is not necessarily a good thing.
>
> Actually, Thomas Carothers who tried "to explain the dispiriting descent of U.S. politics and governance
> into pervasive paralysis, conflict and sheer mediocrity, " had assigned two out of five ills of US democracy
> to competitive election.
>
> "Elite capture: By opening up decision-making power to competition among politicians who are constantly
> in need of money for elections, democratic systems are prone to becoming captured by the wealthy.
>
> Division and conflict: Competitive elections foment or exacerbate destructive societal divisions, generating
> conflict and undercutting a strong sense of national unity and purpose."
>
> https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/01/16/is-democracy-problem-pub-78137

"The comparative empirical research on these questions is complex and does not always yield definite results. But at least some insights are available.. They highlight that while many democratic systems do struggle with these issues, America’s political challenges in these domains are significantly of America’s own making. Moreover, most authoritarian systems do no better in these areas."

ltlee1, <news:7a4c9b93-3c6c-4c52-a80a-75144d1c5104n@googlegroups.com>
> On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:08:09?PM UTC, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

>>> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
>
>> There is a linguistic issue.
>>
>> The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice
>> from several variants, implying them on about the same scale of
>> significance (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a
>> (s)election but some another word should be used. The standard
>> patch to solve the issue is to add some certanly unchoosable
>> variants, imagining them choosable.
>
> (S)Election does imply some kind of choice. Election, however, does
> not entail competitiveness. Else, the descriptive competitive not be
> needed.

The both 'elect' & 'select' are based on Latin verb 'legere' with
slghtly different modification of meaning ('choose out' vs 'choose
away/apart'). Choice means a deed to take one or few from several.
If there is one from one then it's not a choice. The word 'compete'
etymologically also means a multiplicity (as do all Latin-derived
words with the 'com-' prefix). Thus "non-competitive election" is
an oxymoron while "competitive election" is just a tautology.

For Slavic languages, the etymology is about the same (although
Latin is not in play, but similar meanings go down to more primary
PIE meanings). How it's for Chinese, I don't know. And, of course,
it's always possible to redefine meanings of words any way one
likes, but then it would be not a natural language but a sophistry.

Notice nothing has been said about whether it's good or bad. It's
just logics built-in in natural language(s). What is socially good
or bad due to election or non-election would be another question.

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 6:22:15 PM UTC, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> ltlee1, <news:7a4c9b93-3c6c-4c52...@googlegroups.com>
> > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:08:09?PM UTC, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
> >>> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> >
> >> There is a linguistic issue.
> >>
> >> The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice
> >> from several variants, implying them on about the same scale of
> >> significance (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a
> >> (s)election but some another word should be used. The standard
> >> patch to solve the issue is to add some certanly unchoosable
> >> variants, imagining them choosable.
> >
> > (S)Election does imply some kind of choice. Election, however, does
> > not entail competitiveness. Else, the descriptive competitive not be
> > needed.
> The both 'elect' & 'select' are based on Latin verb 'legere' with
> slghtly different modification of meaning ('choose out' vs 'choose
> away/apart'). Choice means a deed to take one or few from several.
> If there is one from one then it's not a choice. The word 'compete'
> etymologically also means a multiplicity (as do all Latin-derived
> words with the 'com-' prefix). Thus "non-competitive election" is
> an oxymoron while "competitive election" is just a tautology.
>
> For Slavic languages, the etymology is about the same (although
> Latin is not in play, but similar meanings go down to more primary
> PIE meanings). How it's for Chinese, I don't know. And, of course,
> it's always possible to redefine meanings of words any way one
> likes, but then it would be not a natural language but a sophistry.
>
> Notice nothing has been said about whether it's good or bad. It's
> just logics built-in in natural language(s). What is socially good
> or bad due to election or non-election would be another question.

An election, if held, happened in the real world could be verified readily objectively.
One can certainly described such election as competitive or non-competitive.. But
one cannot really deny an election was held. Clearly, election as mean to end
procedure does not entail competitive-ness.

In Chinese, election is translated into 选举 which combines the concepts of Select
and Raise. Participants select and raise the candidate to a certain high position.

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 4:02:23 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 4:19:20 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 3:01:33 AM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 11:18:36 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:55:34 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> > > > > "Oleg Smirnov" <os...@netc.eu> wrote:
> > > > > > ltlee1, <news:16a146da-f4b8-4cb6...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election," to
> > > > > >> which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> > > > > >> competitive.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> > > > > >> it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's administration."
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409..html
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Can anyone explain?
> > > > > >> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is a linguistic issue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice from
> > > > > > several variants, implying them on about the same scale of significance
> > > > > > (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a (s)election but some
> > > > > > another word should be used. The standard patch to solve the issue is
> > > > > > to add some certanly unchoosable variants, imagining them choosable.
> > > > > > […]
> > > > >
> > > > > <cynicism> Politically you can spin that Russian elections will be as
> > > > > democratic as third and forth term elections of Franklin Delano
> > > > > Roosevelt. </cynicism>
> > > > I will leave Russian and Saudi democracy to Russians and Saudi Arabians.
> > > Very odd thing to say. Neither the Saudis nor the Russians have democracy at all.
> > Do you really know Saudis and Russians? Or are you regurgitating Western media mindlessly?
> > According to poll results, 53% of Saudis considered Saudi a democracy. In comparison, 49% of
> > Americans considered the US a democracy.
> > https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-26/which-nations-are-democracies-some-citizens-might-disagree
> > > > In the US, competitive election means candidates have to raise tons of money
> > > > from various donors. Just think: How would those billions of dollars be repaid
> > > > by whom and
> > > > in what manner?
> > > Wouldn't it be consistent to leave American democracy to Americans then? So silly.
> > Please reread the statement you are responding to. I wrote about what competitive
> > election means in the US. Are you sure you are not conflating election with democracy?
> >
> > Ritualistic election is after all a mean to a democratic end. But then it becomes a show of
> > raising and then spending billions of dollar. And competitive election certainly makes an
> > more exciting horse-racing like show.
> >
> > The issues raised by Kirby's comment are
> > 1) whether he had conflated a mean with an end,
> > 2) whether he knew competitive is not necessarily a good thing.
> >
> > Actually, Thomas Carothers who tried "to explain the dispiriting descent of U.S. politics and governance
> > into pervasive paralysis, conflict and sheer mediocrity, " had assigned two out of five ills of US democracy
> > to competitive election.
> >
> > "Elite capture: By opening up decision-making power to competition among politicians who are constantly
> > in need of money for elections, democratic systems are prone to becoming captured by the wealthy.
> >
> > Division and conflict: Competitive elections foment or exacerbate destructive societal divisions, generating
> > conflict and undercutting a strong sense of national unity and purpose."
> >
> > https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/01/16/is-democracy-problem-pub-78137

> https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fotn&year=2023&country=SAU
SO?
Previously cited poll results indicated how average Saudis and Americans elevate their countries
according to their daily experience which reflected the outcome of their nations' democratic politics.
Could Freedom House' gentlemen and/or ladies enjoying or suffering America's democracy like
average Americans Saudi democracy?

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 5:40:46 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 4:02:23 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 4:19:20 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 3:01:33 AM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 11:18:36 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:55:34 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> > > > > > "Oleg Smirnov" <os...@netc.eu> wrote:
> > > > > > > ltlee1, <news:16a146da-f4b8-4cb6...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> "The issue came up during a White House briefing.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Journalists asked Kirby how he could comment on Putin's "re-election," to
> > > > > > >> which he humorously implied the Russian elections would not be
> > > > > > >> competitive.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> "Well, this will be quite a race, won't it? That's all I can say about
> > > > > > >> it," replied the representative of the U.S. president's administration."
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mocks-putins-2024-094400409.html
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Can anyone explain?
> > > > > > >> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is a linguistic issue.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice from
> > > > > > > several variants, implying them on about the same scale of significance
> > > > > > > (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a (s)election but some
> > > > > > > another word should be used. The standard patch to solve the issue is
> > > > > > > to add some certanly unchoosable variants, imagining them choosable.
> > > > > > > […]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <cynicism> Politically you can spin that Russian elections will be as
> > > > > > democratic as third and forth term elections of Franklin Delano
> > > > > > Roosevelt. </cynicism>
> > > > > I will leave Russian and Saudi democracy to Russians and Saudi Arabians.
> > > > Very odd thing to say. Neither the Saudis nor the Russians have democracy at all.
> > > Do you really know Saudis and Russians? Or are you regurgitating Western media mindlessly?
> > > According to poll results, 53% of Saudis considered Saudi a democracy.. In comparison, 49% of
> > > Americans considered the US a democracy.
> > > https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-26/which-nations-are-democracies-some-citizens-might-disagree
> > > > > In the US, competitive election means candidates have to raise tons of money
> > > > > from various donors. Just think: How would those billions of dollars be repaid
> > > > > by whom and
> > > > > in what manner?
> > > > Wouldn't it be consistent to leave American democracy to Americans then? So silly.
> > > Please reread the statement you are responding to. I wrote about what competitive
> > > election means in the US. Are you sure you are not conflating election with democracy?
> > >
> > > Ritualistic election is after all a mean to a democratic end. But then it becomes a show of
> > > raising and then spending billions of dollar. And competitive election certainly makes an
> > > more exciting horse-racing like show.
> > >
> > > The issues raised by Kirby's comment are
> > > 1) whether he had conflated a mean with an end,
> > > 2) whether he knew competitive is not necessarily a good thing.
> > >
> > > Actually, Thomas Carothers who tried "to explain the dispiriting descent of U.S. politics and governance
> > > into pervasive paralysis, conflict and sheer mediocrity, " had assigned two out of five ills of US democracy
> > > to competitive election.
> > >
> > > "Elite capture: By opening up decision-making power to competition among politicians who are constantly
> > > in need of money for elections, democratic systems are prone to becoming captured by the wealthy.
> > >
> > > Division and conflict: Competitive elections foment or exacerbate destructive societal divisions, generating
> > > conflict and undercutting a strong sense of national unity and purpose."
> > >
> > > https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/01/16/is-democracy-problem-pub-78137
>
>
> > https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fotn&year=2023&country=SAU
> SO?
> Previously cited poll results indicated how average Saudis and Americans elevate their countries
> according to their daily experience which reflected the outcome of their nations' democratic politics.
> Could Freedom House' gentlemen and/or ladies enjoying or suffering America's democracy like
> average Americans Saudi democracy?

Saudi Arabia is very undemocratic. So is Russia.

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 5:23:35 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 6:22:15 PM UTC, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> > ltlee1, <news:7a4c9b93-3c6c-4c52...@googlegroups.com>
> > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:08:09?PM UTC, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> >
> > >>> Why a presidential race is competitive per se is a meaningful issue?
> > >
> > >> There is a linguistic issue.
> > >>
> > >> The term "(s)election" in it's very basic meaning means a choice
> > >> from several variants, implying them on about the same scale of
> > >> significance (hence 'competitive'). Otherwise, it's not a
> > >> (s)election but some another word should be used. The standard
> > >> patch to solve the issue is to add some certanly unchoosable
> > >> variants, imagining them choosable.
> > >
> > > (S)Election does imply some kind of choice. Election, however, does
> > > not entail competitiveness. Else, the descriptive competitive not be
> > > needed.
> > The both 'elect' & 'select' are based on Latin verb 'legere' with
> > slghtly different modification of meaning ('choose out' vs 'choose
> > away/apart'). Choice means a deed to take one or few from several.
> > If there is one from one then it's not a choice. The word 'compete'
> > etymologically also means a multiplicity (as do all Latin-derived
> > words with the 'com-' prefix). Thus "non-competitive election" is
> > an oxymoron while "competitive election" is just a tautology.
> >
> > For Slavic languages, the etymology is about the same (although
> > Latin is not in play, but similar meanings go down to more primary
> > PIE meanings). How it's for Chinese, I don't know. And, of course,
> > it's always possible to redefine meanings of words any way one
> > likes, but then it would be not a natural language but a sophistry.
> >
> > Notice nothing has been said about whether it's good or bad. It's
> > just logics built-in in natural language(s). What is socially good
> > or bad due to election or non-election would be another question.
> An election, if held, happened in the real world could be verified readily objectively.
> One can certainly described such election as competitive or non-competitive. But
> one cannot really deny an election was held. Clearly, election as mean to end
> procedure does not entail competitive-ness.
>
> In Chinese, election is translated into 选举 which combines the concepts of Select
> and Raise. Participants select and raise the candidate to a certain high position.

But in China, there are no meaningful elections.

bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:
> […]
> Saudi Arabia is very undemocratic. So is Russia.

Is the difference insignificant?

--
| "It was a Roman who said it was sweet to die for one's country.
| The Greeks never said it was sweet to die for anything. They had
| no vital lies." (Edith Hamilton, "The Greek Way")

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 9:26:38 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > […]
> > Saudi Arabia is very undemocratic. So is Russia.
> Is the difference insignificant?

Saudi Arabia is more misogynistic than Russia.

A. Filip, <news:anfi+o9ohx4xjef-ncc2@wp.eu>
> bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:

>> Saudi Arabia is very undemocratic. So is Russia.

American zombies can only emit simple slogans.

> Is the difference insignificant?

Polish zombies are way ahead.

On Wednesday, December 13, 2023 at 10:14:21 AM UTC-8, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> A. Filip, <news:anfi+o9ohx...@wp.eu>
> > bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
>
> >> Saudi Arabia is very undemocratic. So is Russia.
> American zombies can only emit simple slogans.

A Russian troll says what?

> > Is the difference insignificant?
>
> Polish zombies are way ahead.