"The world was horrified to see men stripped down to their underwear huddled with their hands behind their heads as Israeli soldiers looked down at them. For many of us, those images were not new. We had seen and witnessed similar images in various locations in the occupied territories. Israeli soldiers would enter a village, a town, or a refugee camp, round up the men over 18, and force them to sit for hours in a local schoolyard. If Palestinians had thrown stones, burnt tires, or drawn graffiti, the “captured” men would be ordered to clean up after the protesters, paint over the graffiti, and spend most of the day or night in the schoolyard.

The stripping part began with the introduction of suicide attacks. While hiding under the guise of wanting to know if those men taken from their homes had wrapped themselves with explosives, the Israelis would often leave them in their undershorts for hours as part of a collective punishment.

While the Israeli mentality of superiority was prevalent in those incidents during the Palestinian intifada, it was largely absent as the Israeli army withdrew from major cities and regrouped outside of Gaza back in 2007. But the desire to show who was boss and to rub Palestinian civilians’ noses in the dirt while they were stripped to their underpants in the cold weather never left. And the reoccupation of parts of Gaza provided the opportunity to go back to their hateful deeds.

Initially, Israeli officials claimed that the recent mass arrests were of Hamas members who had surrendered. This was such a blatant lie that with the help of social media it was quickly debunked. Slowly, as the images made the rounds, people were able to identify friends, colleagues, and relatives, all of whom were professional men: journalists, engineers, schoolteachers, and so on. Activists argued that Hamas fighters who have a strong conviction and motivations simply don’t surrender. At the same time, social media activists argued, Israeli soldiers are not known to arrest—rather than shoot to kill—any Hamas fighter they happen to run into."

https://newrepublic.com/article/177526/israel-defense-forces-dehumanize-palestinians

On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 1:15:23 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> "The world was horrified to see men stripped down to their underwear huddled with their hands behind their heads as Israeli soldiers looked down at them. For many of us, those images were not new. We had seen and witnessed similar images in various locations in the occupied territories. Israeli soldiers would enter a village, a town, or a refugee camp, round up the men over 18, and force them to sit for hours in a local schoolyard. If Palestinians had thrown stones, burnt tires, or drawn graffiti, the “captured” men would be ordered to clean up after the protesters, paint over the graffiti, and spend most of the day or night in the schoolyard.
>
> The stripping part began with the introduction of suicide attacks. While hiding under the guise of wanting to know if those men taken from their homes had wrapped themselves with explosives, the Israelis would often leave them in their undershorts for hours as part of a collective punishment.
>
> While the Israeli mentality of superiority was prevalent in those incidents during the Palestinian intifada, it was largely absent as the Israeli army withdrew from major cities and regrouped outside of Gaza back in 2007. But the desire to show who was boss and to rub Palestinian civilians’ noses in the dirt while they were stripped to their underpants in the cold weather never left. And the reoccupation of parts of Gaza provided the opportunity to go back to their hateful deeds.
>
> Initially, Israeli officials claimed that the recent mass arrests were of Hamas members who had surrendered. This was such a blatant lie that with the help of social media it was quickly debunked. Slowly, as the images made the rounds, people were able to identify friends, colleagues, and relatives, all of whom were professional men: journalists, engineers, schoolteachers, and so on. Activists argued that Hamas fighters who have a strong conviction and motivations simply don’t surrender. At the same time, social media activists argued, Israeli soldiers are not known to arrest—rather than shoot to kill—any Hamas fighter they happen to run into."
>
> https://newrepublic.com/article/177526/israel-defense-forces-dehumanize-palestinians

It is hypocritical to talk about dehumanization of Palestinians while remaining silent about Hamas' murder of Israelis. Both are wrong.

I still see dishonesty.

On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 11:44:32 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 1:15:23 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > "The world was horrified to see men stripped down to their underwear huddled with their hands behind their heads as Israeli soldiers looked down at them. For many of us, those images were not new. We had seen and witnessed similar images in various locations in the occupied territories. Israeli soldiers would enter a village, a town, or a refugee camp, round up the men over 18, and force them to sit for hours in a local schoolyard. If Palestinians had thrown stones, burnt tires, or drawn graffiti, the “captured” men would be ordered to clean up after the protesters, paint over the graffiti, and spend most of the day or night in the schoolyard.
> >
> > The stripping part began with the introduction of suicide attacks. While hiding under the guise of wanting to know if those men taken from their homes had wrapped themselves with explosives, the Israelis would often leave them in their undershorts for hours as part of a collective punishment.
> >
> > While the Israeli mentality of superiority was prevalent in those incidents during the Palestinian intifada, it was largely absent as the Israeli army withdrew from major cities and regrouped outside of Gaza back in 2007. But the desire to show who was boss and to rub Palestinian civilians’ noses in the dirt while they were stripped to their underpants in the cold weather never left. And the reoccupation of parts of Gaza provided the opportunity to go back to their hateful deeds.
> >
> > Initially, Israeli officials claimed that the recent mass arrests were of Hamas members who had surrendered. This was such a blatant lie that with the help of social media it was quickly debunked. Slowly, as the images made the rounds, people were able to identify friends, colleagues, and relatives, all of whom were professional men: journalists, engineers, schoolteachers, and so on. Activists argued that Hamas fighters who have a strong conviction and motivations simply don’t surrender. At the same time, social media activists argued, Israeli soldiers are not known to arrest—rather than shoot to kill—any Hamas fighter they happen to run into."
> >
> > https://newrepublic.com/article/177526/israel-defense-forces-dehumanize-palestinians
> It is hypocritical to talk about dehumanization of Palestinians while remaining silent about Hamas' murder of Israelis. Both are wrong.
>
> I still see dishonesty.

"Initially, Israeli officials claimed that the recent mass arrests were of Hamas members who had
surrendered. This was such a blatant lie that with the help of social media it was quickly debunked.
.... Activists argued that Hamas fighters who have a strong conviction and motivations simply don’t
surrender. At the same time, social media activists argued, Israeli soldiers are not known to arrest—
rather than shoot to kill—any Hamas fighter they happen to run into.."

If you don't agree, please furnish evidence that the above do not happen. Of course, feel free to write
to NewRepublic.com for spreading lies with or without evidence.

On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 5:12:54 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 11:44:32 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 1:15:23 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > "The world was horrified to see men stripped down to their underwear huddled with their hands behind their heads as Israeli soldiers looked down at them. For many of us, those images were not new. We had seen and witnessed similar images in various locations in the occupied territories. Israeli soldiers would enter a village, a town, or a refugee camp, round up the men over 18, and force them to sit for hours in a local schoolyard. If Palestinians had thrown stones, burnt tires, or drawn graffiti, the “captured” men would be ordered to clean up after the protesters, paint over the graffiti, and spend most of the day or night in the schoolyard.
> > >
> > > The stripping part began with the introduction of suicide attacks. While hiding under the guise of wanting to know if those men taken from their homes had wrapped themselves with explosives, the Israelis would often leave them in their undershorts for hours as part of a collective punishment.
> > >
> > > While the Israeli mentality of superiority was prevalent in those incidents during the Palestinian intifada, it was largely absent as the Israeli army withdrew from major cities and regrouped outside of Gaza back in 2007. But the desire to show who was boss and to rub Palestinian civilians’ noses in the dirt while they were stripped to their underpants in the cold weather never left. And the reoccupation of parts of Gaza provided the opportunity to go back to their hateful deeds.
> > >
> > > Initially, Israeli officials claimed that the recent mass arrests were of Hamas members who had surrendered. This was such a blatant lie that with the help of social media it was quickly debunked. Slowly, as the images made the rounds, people were able to identify friends, colleagues, and relatives, all of whom were professional men: journalists, engineers, schoolteachers, and so on. Activists argued that Hamas fighters who have a strong conviction and motivations simply don’t surrender. At the same time, social media activists argued, Israeli soldiers are not known to arrest—rather than shoot to kill—any Hamas fighter they happen to run into."
> > >
> > > https://newrepublic.com/article/177526/israel-defense-forces-dehumanize-palestinians
> > It is hypocritical to talk about dehumanization of Palestinians while remaining silent about Hamas' murder of Israelis. Both are wrong.
> >
> > I still see dishonesty.
>
> "Initially, Israeli officials claimed that the recent mass arrests were of Hamas members who had
> surrendered. This was such a blatant lie that with the help of social media it was quickly debunked.
> ... Activists argued that Hamas fighters who have a strong conviction and motivations simply don’t
> surrender. At the same time, social media activists argued, Israeli soldiers are not known to arrest—
> rather than shoot to kill—any Hamas fighter they happen to run into."
> If you don't agree, please furnish evidence that the above do not happen. Of course, feel free to write
> to NewRepublic.com for spreading lies with or without evidence.

Killing is wrong by either side. Why blame Israel but not Hamas? It's obviously hypocritical, but some people do it anyway. Sad.

On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 7:06:02 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 5:12:54 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 11:44:32 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 1:15:23 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > "The world was horrified to see men stripped down to their underwear huddled with their hands behind their heads as Israeli soldiers looked down at them. For many of us, those images were not new. We had seen and witnessed similar images in various locations in the occupied territories. Israeli soldiers would enter a village, a town, or a refugee camp, round up the men over 18, and force them to sit for hours in a local schoolyard. If Palestinians had thrown stones, burnt tires, or drawn graffiti, the “captured” men would be ordered to clean up after the protesters, paint over the graffiti, and spend most of the day or night in the schoolyard.
> > > >
> > > > The stripping part began with the introduction of suicide attacks. While hiding under the guise of wanting to know if those men taken from their homes had wrapped themselves with explosives, the Israelis would often leave them in their undershorts for hours as part of a collective punishment..
> > > >
> > > > While the Israeli mentality of superiority was prevalent in those incidents during the Palestinian intifada, it was largely absent as the Israeli army withdrew from major cities and regrouped outside of Gaza back in 2007. But the desire to show who was boss and to rub Palestinian civilians’ noses in the dirt while they were stripped to their underpants in the cold weather never left. And the reoccupation of parts of Gaza provided the opportunity to go back to their hateful deeds.
> > > >
> > > > Initially, Israeli officials claimed that the recent mass arrests were of Hamas members who had surrendered. This was such a blatant lie that with the help of social media it was quickly debunked. Slowly, as the images made the rounds, people were able to identify friends, colleagues, and relatives, all of whom were professional men: journalists, engineers, schoolteachers, and so on. Activists argued that Hamas fighters who have a strong conviction and motivations simply don’t surrender. At the same time, social media activists argued, Israeli soldiers are not known to arrest—rather than shoot to kill—any Hamas fighter they happen to run into."
> > > >
> > > > https://newrepublic.com/article/177526/israel-defense-forces-dehumanize-palestinians
> > > It is hypocritical to talk about dehumanization of Palestinians while remaining silent about Hamas' murder of Israelis. Both are wrong.
> > >
> > > I still see dishonesty.
> >
> > "Initially, Israeli officials claimed that the recent mass arrests were of Hamas members who had
> > surrendered. This was such a blatant lie that with the help of social media it was quickly debunked.
> > ... Activists argued that Hamas fighters who have a strong conviction and motivations simply don’t
> > surrender. At the same time, social media activists argued, Israeli soldiers are not known to arrest—
> > rather than shoot to kill—any Hamas fighter they happen to run into."
> > If you don't agree, please furnish evidence that the above do not happen. Of course, feel free to write
> > to NewRepublic.com for spreading lies with or without evidence.
> Killing is wrong by either side. Why blame Israel but not Hamas? It's obviously hypocritical, but some people do it anyway. Sad.

Please read the title of the article again.
"It’s Not Just the Killing. Why Must Israel Dehumanize Palestinians?"

bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:
> […]
> Killing is wrong by either side. Why blame Israel but not Hamas? It's
> obviously hypocritical, but some people do it anyway. Sad.

Hamas is designated as "a terrorist organization".
Doesn't it lower expectations a lot?
Israel fails a victim to higher expectations.

Do you ask to lower expectation for Israel to Hamas level?
Hail the law of undesired consequences.

--
A. Filip
| The coast was clear. (Lope de Vega)

On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 6:24:48 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > […]
> > Killing is wrong by either side. Why blame Israel but not Hamas? It's
> > obviously hypocritical, but some people do it anyway. Sad.
> Hamas is designated as "a terrorist organization".
> Doesn't it lower expectations a lot?
> Israel fails a victim to higher expectations.
>
> Do you ask to lower expectation for Israel to Hamas level?

No, but it's good to see you admit that Hamas is low. Some here refuse to acknowledge that. That's my point.

> Hail the law of undesired consequences.

On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 6:07:56 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 7:06:02 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 5:12:54 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 11:44:32 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 1:15:23 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > "The world was horrified to see men stripped down to their underwear huddled with their hands behind their heads as Israeli soldiers looked down at them. For many of us, those images were not new. We had seen and witnessed similar images in various locations in the occupied territories. Israeli soldiers would enter a village, a town, or a refugee camp, round up the men over 18, and force them to sit for hours in a local schoolyard. If Palestinians had thrown stones, burnt tires, or drawn graffiti, the “captured” men would be ordered to clean up after the protesters, paint over the graffiti, and spend most of the day or night in the schoolyard.
> > > > >
> > > > > The stripping part began with the introduction of suicide attacks.. While hiding under the guise of wanting to know if those men taken from their homes had wrapped themselves with explosives, the Israelis would often leave them in their undershorts for hours as part of a collective punishment.
> > > > >
> > > > > While the Israeli mentality of superiority was prevalent in those incidents during the Palestinian intifada, it was largely absent as the Israeli army withdrew from major cities and regrouped outside of Gaza back in 2007. But the desire to show who was boss and to rub Palestinian civilians’ noses in the dirt while they were stripped to their underpants in the cold weather never left. And the reoccupation of parts of Gaza provided the opportunity to go back to their hateful deeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Initially, Israeli officials claimed that the recent mass arrests were of Hamas members who had surrendered. This was such a blatant lie that with the help of social media it was quickly debunked. Slowly, as the images made the rounds, people were able to identify friends, colleagues, and relatives, all of whom were professional men: journalists, engineers, schoolteachers, and so on. Activists argued that Hamas fighters who have a strong conviction and motivations simply don’t surrender. At the same time, social media activists argued, Israeli soldiers are not known to arrest—rather than shoot to kill—any Hamas fighter they happen to run into."
> > > > >
> > > > > https://newrepublic.com/article/177526/israel-defense-forces-dehumanize-palestinians
> > > > It is hypocritical to talk about dehumanization of Palestinians while remaining silent about Hamas' murder of Israelis. Both are wrong.
> > > >
> > > > I still see dishonesty.
> > >
> > > "Initially, Israeli officials claimed that the recent mass arrests were of Hamas members who had
> > > surrendered. This was such a blatant lie that with the help of social media it was quickly debunked.
> > > ... Activists argued that Hamas fighters who have a strong conviction and motivations simply don’t
> > > surrender. At the same time, social media activists argued, Israeli soldiers are not known to arrest—
> > > rather than shoot to kill—any Hamas fighter they happen to run into."
> > > If you don't agree, please furnish evidence that the above do not happen. Of course, feel free to write
> > > to NewRepublic.com for spreading lies with or without evidence.
> > Killing is wrong by either side. Why blame Israel but not Hamas? It's obviously hypocritical, but some people do it anyway. Sad.
> Please read the title of the article again.
> "It’s Not Just the Killing. Why Must Israel Dehumanize Palestinians?

But Hamas does also kill people, right?

bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 6:24:48 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
>> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
>> > […]
>> > Killing is wrong by either side. Why blame Israel but not Hamas? It's
>> > obviously hypocritical, but some people do it anyway. Sad.
>> Hamas is designated as "a terrorist organization".
>> Doesn't it lower expectations a lot?
>> Israel fails a victim to higher expectations.
>>
>> Do you ask to lower expectation for Israel to Hamas level?
>>
>> Hail the law of undesired consequences.
>
> No, but it's good to see you admit that Hamas is low. Some here refuse
> to acknowledge that. That's my point.

I don't acknowledge it (officially). IMHO Denying it
(strongly/directly) would be plain stupid unless you are
"a very interested party".

Anyway new round of remembrance about terrorist founding fathers of
Israel is unavoidable IMHO.

I can muster a little sympathy for Hamas only based on logic below:

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata
> Emiliano Zapata Salazar (8 August 1879 – 10 April 1919) […]
>
> Prefiero morir de pie que vivir de rodillas.
> I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.

--
A. Filip
| It's easier to take it apart than to put it back together.
| (Washlesky)

On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 11:51:51 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 6:24:48 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> >> > […]
> >> > Killing is wrong by either side. Why blame Israel but not Hamas? It's
> >> > obviously hypocritical, but some people do it anyway. Sad.
> >> Hamas is designated as "a terrorist organization".
> >> Doesn't it lower expectations a lot?
> >> Israel fails a victim to higher expectations.
> >>
> >> Do you ask to lower expectation for Israel to Hamas level?
> >>
> >> Hail the law of undesired consequences.
> >
> > No, but it's good to see you admit that Hamas is low. Some here refuse
> > to acknowledge that. That's my point.
> I don't acknowledge it (officially).

Do you support their goal of ending the existence of Israel?

> IMHO Denying it
> (strongly/directly) would be plain stupid unless you are
> "a very interested party".
>
> Anyway new round of remembrance about terrorist founding fathers of
> Israel is unavoidable IMHO.
>
> I can muster a little sympathy for Hamas only based on logic below:
>
> https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata
> > Emiliano Zapata Salazar (8 August 1879 – 10 April 1919) […]
> >
> > Prefiero morir de pie que vivir de rodillas.
> > I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.
>
> --
> A. Filip
> | It's easier to take it apart than to put it back together.
> | (Washlesky)

On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 2:24:48 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > […]
> > Killing is wrong by either side. Why blame Israel but not Hamas? It's
> > obviously hypocritical, but some people do it anyway. Sad.
> Hamas is designated as "a terrorist organization".
> Doesn't it lower expectations a lot?
> Israel fails a victim to higher expectations.
>
> Do you ask to lower expectation for Israel to Hamas level?
> Hail the law of undesired consequences.

Undesired consequences has a deep root.

"The late Professor Yeshayahu Leibowitz applied the term “Judeo-Nazis”
back in the late 1980s when he referred to former Supreme Court Judge
Meir Landau, who effectively legalized torture, by that description. He
made his arguments strongly: “The State of Israel represents the darkness of
a state body, where a creature of a human form who was the president of
the Supreme Court decides that the use of torture is permitted in the interest
of the state.”

I took it as a kind of moral exaggeration. It was bad — Palestinians were being
tortured systematically, but somehow I thought, we’re not quite as genocidal
as Nazis.

But today, I feel differently. Yesterday, Jerusalem’s Deputy Mayor Arieh King
tweeted a photo of over a hundred naked Palestinians who were kidnapped by
the Israeli military in Gaza, handcuffed, and sitting in the sand, guarded by
Israeli soldiers. King wrote that “The IDF is exterminating the Nazi Muslims in
Gaza” and that “we must up the tempo”. “If it were up to me,” he added, “I would
bring 4 D9’s [bulldozers], place them behind the sandy hills and give an order to
bury all those hundreds of Nazis alive. They are not human beings and not even
human animals, they are subhuman and that is how they should be treated,” King
said. He ended by repeating Netanyahu’s biblical Amalek genocidal reference:
“Eradicate the memory of the Amalek, we will not forget.”

While Israel called it a “Hamas roundup,” the men and children in those photos,
as young as 13 years old, were doctors, journalists, shopkeepers, and other civilians
who had sought refuge in UNRWA schools in Beit Lahia. They had been arbitrarily
kidnapped and separated from their families."

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/12/i-used-to-think-the-term-judeo-nazis-was-excessive-i-dont-any-longer/
>
> --
> A. Filip
> | The coast was clear. (Lope de Vega)

On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 5:59:24 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 2:24:48 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> > bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > […]
> > > Killing is wrong by either side. Why blame Israel but not Hamas? It's
> > > obviously hypocritical, but some people do it anyway. Sad.
> > Hamas is designated as "a terrorist organization".
> > Doesn't it lower expectations a lot?
> > Israel fails a victim to higher expectations.
> >
> > Do you ask to lower expectation for Israel to Hamas level?
> > Hail the law of undesired consequences.
> Undesired consequences has a deep root.
>
> "The late Professor Yeshayahu Leibowitz applied the term “Judeo-Nazis”
> back in the late 1980s when he referred to former Supreme Court Judge
> Meir Landau, who effectively legalized torture, by that description. He
> made his arguments strongly: “The State of Israel represents the darkness of
> a state body, where a creature of a human form who was the president of
> the Supreme Court decides that the use of torture is permitted in the interest
> of the state.”
>
> I took it as a kind of moral exaggeration. It was bad — Palestinians were being
> tortured systematically, but somehow I thought, we’re not quite as genocidal
> as Nazis.
>
> But today, I feel differently. Yesterday, Jerusalem’s Deputy Mayor Arieh King
> tweeted a photo of over a hundred naked Palestinians who were kidnapped by
> the Israeli military in Gaza, handcuffed, and sitting in the sand, guarded by
> Israeli soldiers. King wrote that “The IDF is exterminating the Nazi Muslims in
> Gaza” and that “we must up the tempo”. “If it were up to me,” he added, “I would
> bring 4 D9’s [bulldozers], place them behind the sandy hills and give an order to
> bury all those hundreds of Nazis alive. They are not human beings and not even
> human animals, they are subhuman and that is how they should be treated,” King
> said. He ended by repeating Netanyahu’s biblical Amalek genocidal reference:
> “Eradicate the memory of the Amalek, we will not forget.”
>
> While Israel called it a “Hamas roundup,” the men and children in those photos,
> as young as 13 years old, were doctors, journalists, shopkeepers, and other civilians
> who had sought refuge in UNRWA schools in Beit Lahia. They had been arbitrarily
> kidnapped and separated from their families."

No one is disputing that Israel has commited atrocities.

On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:26:54 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 5:59:24 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 2:24:48 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> > > bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > > […]
> > > > Killing is wrong by either side. Why blame Israel but not Hamas? It's
> > > > obviously hypocritical, but some people do it anyway. Sad.
> > > Hamas is designated as "a terrorist organization".
> > > Doesn't it lower expectations a lot?
> > > Israel fails a victim to higher expectations.
> > >
> > > Do you ask to lower expectation for Israel to Hamas level?
> > > Hail the law of undesired consequences.
> > Undesired consequences has a deep root.
> >
> > "The late Professor Yeshayahu Leibowitz applied the term “Judeo-Nazis”
> > back in the late 1980s when he referred to former Supreme Court Judge
> > Meir Landau, who effectively legalized torture, by that description. He
> > made his arguments strongly: “The State of Israel represents the darkness of
> > a state body, where a creature of a human form who was the president of
> > the Supreme Court decides that the use of torture is permitted in the interest
> > of the state.”
> >
> > I took it as a kind of moral exaggeration. It was bad — Palestinians were being
> > tortured systematically, but somehow I thought, we’re not quite as genocidal
> > as Nazis.
> >
> > But today, I feel differently. Yesterday, Jerusalem’s Deputy Mayor Arieh King
> > tweeted a photo of over a hundred naked Palestinians who were kidnapped by
> > the Israeli military in Gaza, handcuffed, and sitting in the sand, guarded by
> > Israeli soldiers. King wrote that “The IDF is exterminating the Nazi Muslims in
> > Gaza” and that “we must up the tempo”. “If it were up to me,” he added, “I would
> > bring 4 D9’s [bulldozers], place them behind the sandy hills and give an order to
> > bury all those hundreds of Nazis alive. They are not human beings and not even
> > human animals, they are subhuman and that is how they should be treated,” King
> > said. He ended by repeating Netanyahu’s biblical Amalek genocidal reference:
> > “Eradicate the memory of the Amalek, we will not forget.”
> >
> > While Israel called it a “Hamas roundup,” the men and children in those photos,
> > as young as 13 years old, were doctors, journalists, shopkeepers, and other civilians
> > who had sought refuge in UNRWA schools in Beit Lahia. They had been arbitrarily
> > kidnapped and separated from their families."
> No one is disputing that Israel has commited atrocities.

Just isolated atrocities or killing and subjugation with genocidal intent?

"... Omar Bartov, a prominent Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has “genocidal intent.”[9]
Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide studies have offered a similar warning.[10]" (from "Death and Destruction in Gaza")

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 5:24:51 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:26:54 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 5:59:24 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 2:24:48 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> > > > bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > > > […]
> > > > > Killing is wrong by either side. Why blame Israel but not Hamas? It's
> > > > > obviously hypocritical, but some people do it anyway. Sad.
> > > > Hamas is designated as "a terrorist organization".
> > > > Doesn't it lower expectations a lot?
> > > > Israel fails a victim to higher expectations.
> > > >
> > > > Do you ask to lower expectation for Israel to Hamas level?
> > > > Hail the law of undesired consequences.
> > > Undesired consequences has a deep root.
> > >
> > > "The late Professor Yeshayahu Leibowitz applied the term “Judeo-Nazis”
> > > back in the late 1980s when he referred to former Supreme Court Judge
> > > Meir Landau, who effectively legalized torture, by that description. He
> > > made his arguments strongly: “The State of Israel represents the darkness of
> > > a state body, where a creature of a human form who was the president of
> > > the Supreme Court decides that the use of torture is permitted in the interest
> > > of the state.”
> > >
> > > I took it as a kind of moral exaggeration. It was bad — Palestinians were being
> > > tortured systematically, but somehow I thought, we’re not quite as genocidal
> > > as Nazis.
> > >
> > > But today, I feel differently. Yesterday, Jerusalem’s Deputy Mayor Arieh King
> > > tweeted a photo of over a hundred naked Palestinians who were kidnapped by
> > > the Israeli military in Gaza, handcuffed, and sitting in the sand, guarded by
> > > Israeli soldiers. King wrote that “The IDF is exterminating the Nazi Muslims in
> > > Gaza” and that “we must up the tempo”. “If it were up to me,” he added, “I would
> > > bring 4 D9’s [bulldozers], place them behind the sandy hills and give an order to
> > > bury all those hundreds of Nazis alive. They are not human beings and not even
> > > human animals, they are subhuman and that is how they should be treated,” King
> > > said. He ended by repeating Netanyahu’s biblical Amalek genocidal reference:
> > > “Eradicate the memory of the Amalek, we will not forget.”
> > >
> > > While Israel called it a “Hamas roundup,” the men and children in those photos,
> > > as young as 13 years old, were doctors, journalists, shopkeepers, and other civilians
> > > who had sought refuge in UNRWA schools in Beit Lahia. They had been arbitrarily
> > > kidnapped and separated from their families."
> > No one is disputing that Israel has commited atrocities.
> Just isolated atrocities or killing and subjugation with genocidal intent?

Do you support thee goal of ending the existence of Israel?

> "... Omar Bartov, a prominent Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has “genocidal intent.”[9]
> Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide studies have offered a similar warning.[10]" (from "Death and Destruction in Gaza")

bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 5:24:51 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:26:54 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
[…]
>> Just isolated atrocities or killing and subjugation with genocidal intent?
>
> Do you support thee goal of ending the existence of Israel?
> […]

Do you suggest that end of "State of Israel as it is now" MUST mean
something like second Holocaust? It is pretty wide spread
indirect/implied demagogy IMHO.

Jews had somehow survived 2_000 years without Jewish State.

--
A. Filip
| The future is a race between education and catastrophe.
| (H. G. Wells)

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:31:34 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 5:24:51 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:26:54 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> […]
> >> Just isolated atrocities or killing and subjugation with genocidal intent?
> >
> > Do you support thee goal of ending the existence of Israel?
> > […]
>
> Do you suggest that end of "State of Israel as it is now" MUST mean
> something like second Holocaust? It is pretty wide spread
> indirect/implied demagogy IMHO.
>
> Jews had somehow survived 2_000 years without Jewish State.

Hamas wants to kill all Jews.

bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:31:34 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
>> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 5:24:51 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:26:54 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
>> […]
>> >> Just isolated atrocities or killing and subjugation with genocidal intent?
>> >
>> > Do you support thee goal of ending the existence of Israel?
>> > […]
>>
>> Do you suggest that end of "State of Israel as it is now" MUST mean
>> something like second Holocaust? It is pretty wide spread
>> indirect/implied demagogy IMHO.
>>
>> Jews had somehow survived 2_000 years without Jewish State.
>
> Hamas wants to kill all Jews.

Could you provide supporting links? Is it your personal opinion/projection?
Without supporting evidence (or at very least much more precision) it is
as valid as claim that Israel wants to kill all Palestinians in Gaza Strip.

AFAIR Israel _minster_ from Jewish Power party "suggested" using
Israel's nukes in Gaza *twice*. Could it be done without many+
civilian casualties?

--
A. Filip
| Three hours a day will produce as much as a man ought to write.
| (Trollope)

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 10:49:57 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:31:34 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> >> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 5:24:51 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:26:54 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> >> […]
> >> >> Just isolated atrocities or killing and subjugation with genocidal intent?
> >> >
> >> > Do you support thee goal of ending the existence of Israel?
> >> > […]
> >>
> >> Do you suggest that end of "State of Israel as it is now" MUST mean
> >> something like second Holocaust? It is pretty wide spread
> >> indirect/implied demagogy IMHO.
> >>
> >> Jews had somehow survived 2_000 years without Jewish State.
> >
> > Hamas wants to kill all Jews.
> Could you provide supporting links? Is it your personal opinion/projection?
> Without supporting evidence (or at very least much more precision) it is
> as valid as claim that Israel wants to kill all Palestinians in Gaza Strip.

BTW, I am not suggesting that Israel is innocent in all of this, rather that Hamas should not be ignored as an aggressor as well. Why is that so hard for some to admit? It's so obvious.

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/hamas-words-and-deeds

By 2017, it appeared that Hamas wanted to reshape, or at least clarify, its public image in some quarters. It took steps to soften some of the most extreme language of its 1988 charter by issuing new statements and declarations that, while not repealing or superseding the original document, supplemented it with more ambiguous terms and rhetoric. For example, the original charter called it "compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." In 2017, Hamas portrayed itself as a resistance movement aiming to “liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project.” In 1988, Hamas explicitly acknowledged its links to the Muslim Brotherhood, but the 2017 Hamas Charter is devoid of references to the Brotherhood. In 1988, Hamas declared that the “Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them.” By 2017, Hamas claimed its mission wasn’t “a struggle against Jews or Judaism,” but a “struggle…against the Zionist occupation….”

> AFAIR Israel _minster_ from Jewish Power party "suggested" using
> Israel's nukes in Gaza *twice*. Could it be done without many+
> civilian casualties?

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 11:44:26 AM UTC-8, bmoore wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 10:49:57 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> > bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:31:34 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> > >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > >> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 5:24:51 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > >> >> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:26:54 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > >> […]
> > >> >> Just isolated atrocities or killing and subjugation with genocidal intent?
> > >> >
> > >> > Do you support thee goal of ending the existence of Israel?
> > >> > […]
> > >>
> > >> Do you suggest that end of "State of Israel as it is now" MUST mean
> > >> something like second Holocaust? It is pretty wide spread
> > >> indirect/implied demagogy IMHO.
> > >>
> > >> Jews had somehow survived 2_000 years without Jewish State.
> > >
> > > Hamas wants to kill all Jews.
> > Could you provide supporting links? Is it your personal opinion/projection?
> > Without supporting evidence (or at very least much more precision) it is
> > as valid as claim that Israel wants to kill all Palestinians in Gaza Strip.
> BTW, I am not suggesting that Israel is innocent in all of this, rather that Hamas should not be ignored as an aggressor as well. Why is that so hard for some to admit? It's so obvious.
>
> https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/hamas-words-and-deeds
>
> By 2017, it appeared that Hamas wanted to reshape, or at least clarify, its public image in some quarters. It took steps to soften some of the most extreme language of its 1988 charter by issuing new statements and declarations that, while not repealing or superseding the original document, supplemented it with more ambiguous terms and rhetoric. For example, the original charter called it "compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." In 2017, Hamas portrayed itself as a resistance movement aiming to “liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project.” In 1988, Hamas explicitly acknowledged its links to the Muslim Brotherhood, but the 2017 Hamas Charter is devoid of references to the Brotherhood. In 1988, Hamas declared that the “Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them.” By 2017, Hamas claimed its mission wasn’t “a struggle against Jews or Judaism,” but a “struggle…against the Zionist occupation….”

Maybe Israel does want to kill all Palestinians in Gaza. I oppose that too, obviously. I dislike Netanyahu immensely.

But isn't Hamas terrible too? That's the question that no one on this NG will answer. No matter how much I acknowledge that Israel is bad too.

> > AFAIR Israel _minster_ from Jewish Power party "suggested" using
> > Israel's nukes in Gaza *twice*. Could it be done without many+
> > civilian casualties?

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 7:44:26 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 10:49:57 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> > bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:31:34 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> > >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > >> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 5:24:51 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > >> >> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:26:54 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > >> […]
> > >> >> Just isolated atrocities or killing and subjugation with genocidal intent?
> > >> >
> > >> > Do you support thee goal of ending the existence of Israel?
> > >> > […]
> > >>
> > >> Do you suggest that end of "State of Israel as it is now" MUST mean
> > >> something like second Holocaust? It is pretty wide spread
> > >> indirect/implied demagogy IMHO.
> > >>
> > >> Jews had somehow survived 2_000 years without Jewish State.
> > >
> > > Hamas wants to kill all Jews.
> > Could you provide supporting links? Is it your personal opinion/projection?
> > Without supporting evidence (or at very least much more precision) it is
> > as valid as claim that Israel wants to kill all Palestinians in Gaza Strip.
> BTW, I am not suggesting that Israel is innocent in all of this, rather that Hamas should not be ignored as an aggressor as well. Why is that so hard for some to admit? It's so obvious.
>
> https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/hamas-words-and-deeds
>
> By 2017, it appeared that Hamas wanted to reshape, or at least clarify, its public image in some quarters. It took steps to soften some of the most extreme language of its 1988 charter by issuing new statements and declarations that, while not repealing or superseding the original document, supplemented it with more ambiguous terms and rhetoric. For example, the original charter called it "compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." In 2017, Hamas portrayed itself as a resistance movement aiming to “liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project.” In 1988, Hamas explicitly acknowledged its links to the Muslim Brotherhood, but the 2017 Hamas Charter is devoid of references to the Brotherhood. In 1988, Hamas declared that the “Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them.” By 2017, Hamas claimed its mission wasn’t “a struggle against Jews or Judaism,” but a “struggle…against the Zionist occupation….”
> > AFAIR Israel _minster_ from Jewish Power party "suggested" using
> > Israel's nukes in Gaza *twice*. Could it be done without many+
> > civilian casualties?

From the provided site:
"In its original 1988 charter, Hamas states that “There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.”"
The page does not include anything close to "Hamas wants to kill all Jews."

Jihad certainly means military struggle. Military struggle, especially taken up by the weak in form of terrorism as a
mean to an end certainly entails death of civilians. The issue raised heres are genocidal intent as well as dehumanization
of civilian Palestinians. Historically speaking, Israel had killed far more Palestinians then Hamas had killed Jews.

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 7:54:18 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 11:44:26 AM UTC-8, bmoore wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 10:49:57 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> > > bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:31:34 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> > > >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > >> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 5:24:51 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > >> >> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:26:54 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > > >> […]
> > > >> >> Just isolated atrocities or killing and subjugation with genocidal intent?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Do you support thee goal of ending the existence of Israel?
> > > >> > […]
> > > >>
> > > >> Do you suggest that end of "State of Israel as it is now" MUST mean
> > > >> something like second Holocaust? It is pretty wide spread
> > > >> indirect/implied demagogy IMHO.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jews had somehow survived 2_000 years without Jewish State.
> > > >
> > > > Hamas wants to kill all Jews.
> > > Could you provide supporting links? Is it your personal opinion/projection?
> > > Without supporting evidence (or at very least much more precision) it is
> > > as valid as claim that Israel wants to kill all Palestinians in Gaza Strip.
> > BTW, I am not suggesting that Israel is innocent in all of this, rather that Hamas should not be ignored as an aggressor as well. Why is that so hard for some to admit? It's so obvious.
> >
> > https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/hamas-words-and-deeds
> >
> > By 2017, it appeared that Hamas wanted to reshape, or at least clarify, its public image in some quarters. It took steps to soften some of the most extreme language of its 1988 charter by issuing new statements and declarations that, while not repealing or superseding the original document, supplemented it with more ambiguous terms and rhetoric. For example, the original charter called it "compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." In 2017, Hamas portrayed itself as a resistance movement aiming to “liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project.” In 1988, Hamas explicitly acknowledged its links to the Muslim Brotherhood, but the 2017 Hamas Charter is devoid of references to the Brotherhood. In 1988, Hamas declared that the “Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them.” By 2017, Hamas claimed its mission wasn’t “a struggle against Jews or Judaism,” but a “struggle…against the Zionist occupation….”
> Maybe Israel does want to kill all Palestinians in Gaza. I oppose that too, obviously. I dislike Netanyahu immensely.
>
> But isn't Hamas terrible too? That's the question that no one on this NG will answer. No matter how much I acknowledge that Israel is bad too.

How other posters and I see Hamas are irrelevant.
1. The well known saying is that, "One man's terrorist is another's man's freedom fighter. "
2. However terrible Hamas members are in killing the innocents, Israel defense had slaughtered many times more,
past and present, all with the support of the Israeli government. IF KILLING is the SOLE CRITERIA, Israel under its
various governmentle leaders is more terrible.

> > > AFAIR Israel _minster_ from Jewish Power party "suggested" using
> > > Israel's nukes in Gaza *twice*. Could it be done without many+
> > > civilian casualties?

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 12:44:28 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 7:54:18 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 11:44:26 AM UTC-8, bmoore wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 10:49:57 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> > > > bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:31:34 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> > > > >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > > >> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 5:24:51 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > >> >> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:26:54 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > > > >> […]
> > > > >> >> Just isolated atrocities or killing and subjugation with genocidal intent?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Do you support thee goal of ending the existence of Israel?
> > > > >> > […]
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Do you suggest that end of "State of Israel as it is now" MUST mean
> > > > >> something like second Holocaust? It is pretty wide spread
> > > > >> indirect/implied demagogy IMHO.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Jews had somehow survived 2_000 years without Jewish State.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hamas wants to kill all Jews.
> > > > Could you provide supporting links? Is it your personal opinion/projection?
> > > > Without supporting evidence (or at very least much more precision) it is
> > > > as valid as claim that Israel wants to kill all Palestinians in Gaza Strip.
> > > BTW, I am not suggesting that Israel is innocent in all of this, rather that Hamas should not be ignored as an aggressor as well. Why is that so hard for some to admit? It's so obvious.
> > >
> > > https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/hamas-words-and-deeds
> > >
> > > By 2017, it appeared that Hamas wanted to reshape, or at least clarify, its public image in some quarters. It took steps to soften some of the most extreme language of its 1988 charter by issuing new statements and declarations that, while not repealing or superseding the original document, supplemented it with more ambiguous terms and rhetoric. For example, the original charter called it "compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." In 2017, Hamas portrayed itself as a resistance movement aiming to “liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project.” In 1988, Hamas explicitly acknowledged its links to the Muslim Brotherhood, but the 2017 Hamas Charter is devoid of references to the Brotherhood. In 1988, Hamas declared that the “Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them.” By 2017, Hamas claimed its mission wasn’t “a struggle against Jews or Judaism,” but a “struggle…against the Zionist occupation….”
> > Maybe Israel does want to kill all Palestinians in Gaza. I oppose that too, obviously. I dislike Netanyahu immensely.
> >
> > But isn't Hamas terrible too? That's the question that no one on this NG will answer. No matter how much I acknowledge that Israel is bad too.
> How other posters and I see Hamas are irrelevant.

Easily the most accurate thing you've said in a while,

> 1. The well known saying is that, "One man's terrorist is another's man's freedom fighter. "
> 2. However terrible Hamas members are in killing the innocents, Israel defense had slaughtered many times more,
> past and present, all with the support of the Israeli government. IF KILLING is the SOLE CRITERIA, Israel under its
> various governmentle leaders is more terrible.
> > > > AFAIR Israel _minster_ from Jewish Power party "suggested" using
> > > > Israel's nukes in Gaza *twice*. Could it be done without many+
> > > > civilian casualties?

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 12:32:26 PM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 7:44:26 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 10:49:57 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> > > bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:31:34 AM UTC-8, A. Filip wrote:
> > > >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > >> > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 5:24:51 AM UTC-8, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > >> >> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:26:54 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > > >> […]
> > > >> >> Just isolated atrocities or killing and subjugation with genocidal intent?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Do you support thee goal of ending the existence of Israel?
> > > >> > […]
> > > >>
> > > >> Do you suggest that end of "State of Israel as it is now" MUST mean
> > > >> something like second Holocaust? It is pretty wide spread
> > > >> indirect/implied demagogy IMHO.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jews had somehow survived 2_000 years without Jewish State.
> > > >
> > > > Hamas wants to kill all Jews.
> > > Could you provide supporting links? Is it your personal opinion/projection?
> > > Without supporting evidence (or at very least much more precision) it is
> > > as valid as claim that Israel wants to kill all Palestinians in Gaza Strip.
> > BTW, I am not suggesting that Israel is innocent in all of this, rather that Hamas should not be ignored as an aggressor as well. Why is that so hard for some to admit? It's so obvious.
> >
> > https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/hamas-words-and-deeds
> >
> > By 2017, it appeared that Hamas wanted to reshape, or at least clarify, its public image in some quarters. It took steps to soften some of the most extreme language of its 1988 charter by issuing new statements and declarations that, while not repealing or superseding the original document, supplemented it with more ambiguous terms and rhetoric. For example, the original charter called it "compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." In 2017, Hamas portrayed itself as a resistance movement aiming to “liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project.” In 1988, Hamas explicitly acknowledged its links to the Muslim Brotherhood, but the 2017 Hamas Charter is devoid of references to the Brotherhood. In 1988, Hamas declared that the “Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them.” By 2017, Hamas claimed its mission wasn’t “a struggle against Jews or Judaism,” but a “struggle…against the Zionist occupation….”
> > > AFAIR Israel _minster_ from Jewish Power party "suggested" using
> > > Israel's nukes in Gaza *twice*. Could it be done without many+
> > > civilian casualties?
> From the provided site:
> "In its original 1988 charter, Hamas states that “There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.”"
> The page does not include anything close to "Hamas wants to kill all Jews.."
>
> Jihad certainly means military struggle. Military struggle, especially taken up by the weak in form of terrorism as a
> mean to an end certainly entails death of civilians. The issue raised heres are genocidal intent as well as dehumanization
> of civilian Palestinians. Historically speaking, Israel had killed far more Palestinians then Hamas had killed Jews.

That's only because Israel is more powerful than Hamas. If Hamas had a nuke they would use it on Israel in a second. Clearly.