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interests / rec.games.bridge / Re: 3NT or TOX?

SubjectAuthor
* 3NT or TOX?cshe...@gmail.com
+* Re: 3NT or TOX?C. Johnson
|+* Re: 3NT or TOX?cshe...@gmail.com
||`* Re: 3NT or TOX?Charles Brenner
|| `* Re: 3NT or TOX?Angela 184jlwi
||  `* Re: 3NT or TOX?John Hall
||   `- Re: 3NT or TOX?Bertel Lund Hansen
|`* Re: 3NT or TOX?Jean Pierre Fontenille
| `- Re: 3NT or TOX?John Hall
`* Re: 3NT or TOX?Fred.
 `- Re: 3NT or TOX?Fred.

1
3NT or TOX?

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Subject: 3NT or TOX?
From: cshea...@gmail.com (cshe...@gmail.com)
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 by: cshe...@gmail.com - Tue, 9 Nov 2021 12:10 UTC

In the Aces column in our local paper on Nov. 9, 2021, Bobby Wolff gives the hand 64-AQJ84-AK4-A62 with RHO opening 3C and asks what we would bid next..

Wolff says that the hand is too strong for 3H and that a TOX would force you to guess whether to bid 4H or 3NT if partner bids 3S, and that bidding 3N now "cuts out the middle man."

However, if you are willing to bid 3NT now without a spade stopper, it seems to me that it should be easy double and then bid 3NT over partner's 3S and this gives partner a chance to run to hearts or diamonds if he is 2-suited or to rebid spades if he is 1-suited.

So which is better, 3NT or double?

Re: 3NT or TOX?

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Subject: Re: 3NT or TOX?
From: cornyc...@gmail.com (C. Johnson)
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 by: C. Johnson - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 05:12 UTC

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 4:10:09 AM UTC-8, cshe...@gmail.com wrote:
> In the Aces column in our local paper on Nov. 9, 2021, Bobby Wolff gives the hand 64-AQJ84-AK4-A62 with RHO opening 3C and asks what we would bid next.
>
> Wolff says that the hand is too strong for 3H and that a TOX would force you to guess whether to bid 4H or 3NT if partner bids 3S, and that bidding 3N now "cuts out the middle man."
>
> However, if you are willing to bid 3NT now without a spade stopper, it seems to me that it should be easy double and then bid 3NT over partner's 3S and this gives partner a chance to run to hearts or diamonds if he is 2-suited or to rebid spades if he is 1-suited.
>
> So which is better, 3NT or double?
If you double and pard bids 4 spades, then what?

Re: 3NT or TOX?

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Subject: Re: 3NT or TOX?
From: cshea...@gmail.com (cshe...@gmail.com)
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 by: cshe...@gmail.com - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:31 UTC

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 11:12:54 PM UTC-6, C. Johnson wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 4:10:09 AM UTC-8, cshe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > In the Aces column in our local paper on Nov. 9, 2021, Bobby Wolff gives the hand 64-AQJ84-AK4-A62 with RHO opening 3C and asks what we would bid next.
> >
> > Wolff says that the hand is too strong for 3H and that a TOX would force you to guess whether to bid 4H or 3NT if partner bids 3S, and that bidding 3N now "cuts out the middle man."
> >
> > However, if you are willing to bid 3NT now without a spade stopper, it seems to me that it should be easy double and then bid 3NT over partner's 3S and this gives partner a chance to run to hearts or diamonds if he is 2-suited or to rebid spades if he is 1-suited.
> >
> > So which is better, 3NT or double?
> If you double and pard bids 4 spades, then what?

Since my TOX doesn't promise 4 spades and since spades don't figure to break well even if I had 4, I take pard's jump to show a good hand with 6+ spades or a very good 5, so I would pass. I only have 18 HCP with no ruffing values and only 2 spades, so if pard has enough for slam (15+ points), he has to bid something stronger than 4S, IMO.

Re: 3NT or TOX?

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Subject: Re: 3NT or TOX?
From: fredp9...@gmail.com (Fred.)
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 by: Fred. - Mon, 15 Nov 2021 15:10 UTC

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 7:10:09 AM UTC-5, cshe...@gmail.com wrote:
> In the Aces column in our local paper on Nov. 9, 2021, Bobby Wolff gives the hand 64-AQJ84-AK4-A62 with RHO opening 3C and asks what we would bid next.
>
> Wolff says that the hand is too strong for 3H and that a TOX would force you to guess whether to bid 4H or 3NT if partner bids 3S, and that bidding 3N now "cuts out the middle man."
>
> However, if you are willing to bid 3NT now without a spade stopper, it seems to me that it should be easy double and then bid 3NT over partner's 3S and this gives partner a chance to run to hearts or diamonds if he is 2-suited or to rebid spades if he is 1-suited.
>
> So which is better, 3NT or double?

I think that lots depends on your exact understanding of the TOX. In the absence of previous
discussion I'd follow Mr. Wolff's lead and bid 3NT. Otherwise, the risk of a misunderstanding
is worse than the risk of the spade doubleton and the risk of missing a heart slam combined.
Double gives you no assurance of reaching the correct contract, but provides the defense with
added information.

Fred.

Re: 3NT or TOX?

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Subject: Re: 3NT or TOX?
From: fredp9...@gmail.com (Fred.)
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 by: Fred. - Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:38 UTC

On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 10:10:24 AM UTC-5, Fred. wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 7:10:09 AM UTC-5, cshe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > In the Aces column in our local paper on Nov. 9, 2021, Bobby Wolff gives the hand 64-AQJ84-AK4-A62 with RHO opening 3C and asks what we would bid next.
> >
> > Wolff says that the hand is too strong for 3H and that a TOX would force you to guess whether to bid 4H or 3NT if partner bids 3S, and that bidding 3N now "cuts out the middle man."
> >
> > However, if you are willing to bid 3NT now without a spade stopper, it seems to me that it should be easy double and then bid 3NT over partner's 3S and this gives partner a chance to run to hearts or diamonds if he is 2-suited or to rebid spades if he is 1-suited.
> >
> > So which is better, 3NT or double?
> I think that lots depends on your exact understanding of the TOX. In the absence of previous
> discussion I'd follow Mr. Wolff's lead and bid 3NT. Otherwise, the risk of a misunderstanding
> is worse than the risk of the spade doubleton and the risk of missing a heart slam combined.
> Double gives you no assurance of reaching the correct contract, but provides the defense with
> added information.
>
> Fred.

P.S. Intervener would prefer any spade honors to be on advancer's side of the table since a
club holdup may be needed preparation towards losing a heart. The weak spade doubleton is
likely good news.

F.

Re: 3NT or TOX?

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Subject: Re: 3NT or TOX?
From: challamb...@gmail.com (Charles Brenner)
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 by: Charles Brenner - Sun, 21 Nov 2021 09:43 UTC

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 1:31:27 PM UTC+1, cshe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 11:12:54 PM UTC-6, C. Johnson wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 4:10:09 AM UTC-8, cshe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > In the Aces column in our local paper on Nov. 9, 2021, Bobby Wolff gives the hand 64-AQJ84-AK4-A62 with RHO opening 3C and asks what we would bid next.
> > >
> > > Wolff says that the hand is too strong for 3H and that a TOX would force you to guess whether to bid 4H or 3NT if partner bids 3S, and that bidding 3N now "cuts out the middle man."
> > >
> > > However, if you are willing to bid 3NT now without a spade stopper, it seems to me that it should be easy double and then bid 3NT over partner's 3S and this gives partner a chance to run to hearts or diamonds if he is 2-suited or to rebid spades if he is 1-suited.
> > >
> > > So which is better, 3NT or double?
> > If you double and pard bids 4 spades, then what?
> Since my TOX doesn't promise 4 spades and since spades don't figure to break well even if I had 4, I take pard's jump to show a good hand with 6+ spades or a very good 5, so I would pass. I only have 18 HCP with no ruffing values and only 2 spades, so if pard has enough for slam (15+ points), he has to bid something stronger than 4S, IMO.

It's desirable to have 5 or 6 spades to bid 4S but we don't get to choose how many spades we have; we only get to choose what bid to make given what we're dealt. Even when dealt only 4S it's common that a bid of 4S is the best gamble.

Re: 3NT or TOX?

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Subject: Re: 3NT or TOX?
From: angela18...@gmail.com (Angela 184jlwi)
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 by: Angela 184jlwi - Mon, 14 Feb 2022 09:53 UTC

Please unsubscribe me from this group: rec.games.bridge@googlegroups.com

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 4:43:44 AM UTC-5, Charles Brenner wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 1:31:27 PM UTC+1, cshe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 11:12:54 PM UTC-6, C. Johnson wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 4:10:09 AM UTC-8, cshe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > In the Aces column in our local paper on Nov. 9, 2021, Bobby Wolff gives the hand 64-AQJ84-AK4-A62 with RHO opening 3C and asks what we would bid next.
> > > >
> > > > Wolff says that the hand is too strong for 3H and that a TOX would force you to guess whether to bid 4H or 3NT if partner bids 3S, and that bidding 3N now "cuts out the middle man."
> > > >
> > > > However, if you are willing to bid 3NT now without a spade stopper, it seems to me that it should be easy double and then bid 3NT over partner's 3S and this gives partner a chance to run to hearts or diamonds if he is 2-suited or to rebid spades if he is 1-suited.
> > > >
> > > > So which is better, 3NT or double?
> > > If you double and pard bids 4 spades, then what?
> > Since my TOX doesn't promise 4 spades and since spades don't figure to break well even if I had 4, I take pard's jump to show a good hand with 6+ spades or a very good 5, so I would pass. I only have 18 HCP with no ruffing values and only 2 spades, so if pard has enough for slam (15+ points), he has to bid something stronger than 4S, IMO.
> It's desirable to have 5 or 6 spades to bid 4S but we don't get to choose how many spades we have; we only get to choose what bid to make given what we're dealt. Even when dealt only 4S it's common that a bid of 4S is the best gamble.

Re: 3NT or TOX?

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From: john_nos...@jhall.co.uk (John Hall)
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Subject: Re: 3NT or TOX?
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 by: John Hall - Mon, 14 Feb 2022 10:29 UTC

In message <78c9913a-4ab9-416a-a922-69f6a69e3dc1n@googlegroups.com>,
Angela 184jlwi <angela184jlwi@gmail.com> writes
>Please unsubscribe me from this group:
>rec.games.bridge@googlegroups.com

It doesn't work like that. You have to unsubscribe yourself. But not
being a user of googlegroups, I've no idea how you do that.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

Re: 3NT or TOX?

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From: gadekr...@lundhansen.dk (Bertel Lund Hansen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: 3NT or TOX?
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 12:04:27 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Bertel Lund Hansen - Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:04 UTC

Den 14.02.2022 kl. 11.29 skrev John Hall:

> It doesn't work like that. You have to unsubscribe yourself. But not
> being a user of googlegroups, I've no idea how you do that.

I suppose you can just stop opening the group.

--
Bertel

Re: 3NT or TOX?

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Subject: Re: 3NT or TOX?
From: fontenil...@gmail.com (Jean Pierre Fontenille)
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 by: Jean Pierre Fontenil - Tue, 7 Jun 2022 15:25 UTC

4S is a stop. 3S would be strong

Re: 3NT or TOX?

<lT$pMuAbW3niFw+z@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>

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From: john_nos...@jhall.co.uk (John Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: 3NT or TOX?
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 16:58:19 +0100
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 by: John Hall - Tue, 7 Jun 2022 15:58 UTC

In message <1d0f8618-9d7f-4c9a-8261-d18e255799e4n@googlegroups.com>,
Jean Pierre Fontenille <fontenille.jp@gmail.com> writes
>4S is a stop. 3S would be strong

It helps if you quote the post than you are responding to, especially if
- as in this case - it was made a long time ago.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

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