John Scallan
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Former Radar Tech at U.S. Air Force (1974–1978)Mon

Was the MiG-15 a nasty shock for the Allied bomber aircrew in the Korean
War?
Oct 23, 1951 will always be remembered as “Black Tuesday” by American
aviators. On that day 200 American planes attacked the NK airbase at
Namsi, Korea. The core of the American force was a group of 9 B-29s. The
rest of the force was the fighter escort. They were attacked by three
squadrons of Mig-15s. The Mig-15s ignored the fighter escort and
concentrated on the bombers. The Migs shot down 6 of the B-29s that day.
The Mig-15s took 0 losses. The surviving bombers were so shot up that
they were deemed unrepairable and eventually scrapped. This was, as you
say, a nasty shock to the USAF. Losing 100% of your bombers in a single
attack is considered a disaster. The fact that an escorting fighter
group of close to 200 planes failed to shoot down any Migs was an even
greater shock. It was clear that the Allied fighters were totally
useless. USAF bombers were switched to nighttime operations only. The
B-29 crews were mostly reserve officers called back to duty. Very few of
them were regular USAF officers. The B-29 crewmen were already bitter
and resentful over being called back to duty while the regular officers
stayed at home.

After the war a defector landed his Mig-15 at an American airbase. The
USAF immediately sent their top pilot, Captain Chuck Yeager, to do a
technical evaluation of the Mig-15. He quickly identified the weaknesses
of the Mig. This information was passed down to the rest of the USAF
organization.

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20 comments from
Charles Fletcher
and more

Charles Fletcher
· Tue
The defection of the MiG pilot was after the Korean War.

John Scallan
· Tue
You are correct. The plane and the pilot at the Smithsonian Museum.

M.P. L.
· Tue
Crazy if you think the british gave them the engines to fight the west….

Richard Garside
· Tue
Yes, okayed by Stafford Cripps, a Communist sympathiser

Nathan Thomas
· Tue
They gave them obsolete engines. And they needed money rather badly
since America was demanding immediate payment. It's called karma

M.P. L.
· Tue
Afaik they gave them nene engines in 46 that were anything but obsolete
and money wasn‘t the object of the transfer….

Dave Austin
· 15h
That and they raised the price of Merlin’s and the Packard license. Shot
in the foot that, the US had much superior radial engines and hundreds
of thousands of crated Allison’s for the last thing inline 12’s were
good for, drag racing, hydrofoils and tractor pulls.

Paul Ithurralde
· Thu
What a load of crap. America wrote off the war loan, then gave ANOTHER
loan with extremely generous long term, low interest rates which they
allowed 11 defaults on over the years when England couldn’t make the
payment.

You’ve been lied to Nathan. Get your facts straight.

You might want to acknowledge that Canada ALSO gave the same type of
post war load to England. Try reading a bit, even shitty Wiki gets it
more correct than far to many Brits on this site.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_loan#:~:text=The%20Anglo%2DAmerican%20Loan%20Agreement,World%20War%20to%20keep%20afloat.

John Ruthven
· Thu
Far too many Brits get it wrong I think you mean…

Paul Ithurralde
Well I didn’t want to drag ALL the Brits into it :D. I only really have
experience arguing it with the one’s here on Quora and I wouldn’t want
to assume all of England is represented by a few here on this site.

John Pearson
· Fri
I think Nathan may be an Aussie not a Brit.
“England” and “Britain” are not the same thing - even Wikipedia gets
that right.

Chris Pratt
· Tue
Lol

On 6/17/23 10:55, a425couple wrote:
> John Scallan
>  Follow
> Former Radar Tech at U.S. Air Force (1974–1978)Mon
>
> Was the MiG-15 a nasty shock for the Allied bomber aircrew in the Korean
> War?
> Oct 23, 1951 will always be remembered as “Black Tuesday” by American
> aviators. On that day 200 American planes attacked the NK airbase at
> Namsi, Korea. The core of the American force was a group of 9 B-29s. The
> rest of the force was the fighter escort. They were attacked by three
> squadrons of Mig-15s. The Mig-15s ignored the fighter escort and
> concentrated on the bombers. The Migs shot down 6 of the B-29s that day.
> The Mig-15s took 0 losses. The surviving bombers were so shot up that
> they were deemed unrepairable and eventually scrapped. This was, as you
> say, a nasty shock to the USAF. Losing 100% of your bombers in a single
> attack is considered a disaster. The fact that an escorting fighter
> group of close to 200 planes failed to shoot down any Migs was an even
> greater shock. It was clear that the Allied fighters were totally
> useless. USAF bombers were switched to nighttime operations only. The
> B-29 crews were mostly reserve officers called back to duty. Very few of
> them were regular USAF officers. The B-29 crewmen were already bitter
> and resentful over being called back to duty while the regular officers
> stayed at home.
>
> After the war a defector landed his Mig-15 at an American airbase. The
> USAF immediately sent their top pilot, Captain Chuck Yeager, to do a
> technical evaluation of the Mig-15. He quickly identified the weaknesses
> of the Mig. This information was passed down to the rest of the USAF
> organization.
>
> 13.6K views
> View 296 upvotes
> 1 of 4 answers
> 20 comments from
> Charles Fletcher
>  and more
>
> Charles Fletcher
>  · Tue
> The defection of the MiG pilot was after the Korean War.
>
> John Scallan
>  · Tue
> You are correct. The plane and the pilot at the Smithsonian Museum.
>
>
> M.P. L.
>  · Tue
> Crazy if you think the british gave them the engines to fight the west….
>
> Richard Garside
>  · Tue
> Yes, okayed by Stafford Cripps, a Communist sympathiser
>
> Nathan Thomas
>  · Tue
> They gave them obsolete engines. And they needed money rather badly
> since America was demanding immediate payment. It's called karma
>
> M.P. L.
>  · Tue
> Afaik they gave them nene engines in 46 that were anything but obsolete
> and money wasn‘t the object of the transfer….
>
> Dave Austin
>  · 15h
> That and they raised the price of Merlin’s and the Packard license. Shot
> in the foot that, the US had much superior radial engines and hundreds
> of thousands of crated Allison’s for the last thing inline 12’s were
> good for, drag racing, hydrofoils and tractor pulls.
>
> Paul Ithurralde
>  · Thu
> What a load of crap. America wrote off the war loan, then gave ANOTHER
> loan with extremely generous long term, low interest rates which they
> allowed 11 defaults on over the years when England couldn’t make the
> payment.
>
> You’ve been lied to Nathan. Get your facts straight.
>
> You might want to acknowledge that Canada ALSO gave the same type of
> post war load to England. Try reading a bit, even shitty Wiki gets it
> more correct than far to many Brits on this site.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_loan#:~:text=The%20Anglo%2DAmerican%20Loan%20Agreement,World%20War%20to%20keep%20afloat.
>
> John Ruthven
>  · Thu
> Far too many Brits get it wrong I think you mean…
>
> Paul Ithurralde
> Well I didn’t want to drag ALL the Brits into it :D. I only really have
> experience arguing it with the one’s here on Quora and I wouldn’t want
> to assume all of England is represented by a few here on this site.
>
> John Pearson
>  · Fri
> I think Nathan may be an Aussie not a Brit.
> “England” and “Britain” are not the same thing - even Wikipedia gets
> that right.
>
> Chris Pratt
>  · Tue
> Lol

Scott Claymore
· Fri
Demanding payment? Really? After the war not only did the USA write off
almost all British war debts but went on to pour cash into Europe via
The Marshall Plan of which Britain was the largest recipient.

Country Allocations of Marshall Plan Aid

UK 24%
France 21
West Germany 11
Italy 11
Netherlands 8
Greece 5
Austria 5
Belgium & Lux 4

Read a book.

Dave Austin
· 17h
BS. The US made a 50 year loan at 2% interest to postwar Britain. Six
deferred payments were in the terms. A 2% fifty year loan is nearly free
money for a country borrowing much more at much higher rates on the Gilt
bond market. Lend-Lease was the closest to a gift Roosevelt could ram
through Congress.

We kept you fed and fueled through WWII at considerable loss to our
merchant fleet and sailors.

What is with you people? We’ve supported you, fought alongside you, and
kept the world an English-speaking planet for 100 years. All I
personally would hope in exchange is a truthful assessment of the
relationship.

It sounds like you resent accepting a handout and insisting on punishing
the benefactor.

Fortunately, it wasn’t charity, and the US and UK have shared a mutually
honorable and beneficial relationship for a century.

"a425couple" wrote in message news:hKnjM.1414$VKY6.438@fx13.iad...

> After the war a defector landed his Mig-15 at an American airbase. The
> USAF immediately sent their top pilot, Captain Chuck Yeager, to do a
> technical evaluation of the Mig-15. He quickly identified the weaknesses
> of the Mig. This information was passed down to the rest of the USAF
> organization.

---------------------------------

Yeager found it might not survive a steep dive, like the P-38 and A6M.
Otherwise it was very good. Later he accompanied Jacqueline Cochran on her
good will visit to the USSR and had the chance to compare experiences flight
testing it with designer Artem Mikoyan, the M in MiG. The 'i' is 'and'.

I've read that our biggest advantage over the MiG-15 was our gyroscopic
lead-computing gunsight.

The gyroscopic sight had been introduced in small numbers late in the war
with Japan. Captured flyers were allowed to talk freely to avoid torture and
one told then a quick reversal of a turn would defeat the new sight, which
was true, but then the majority of planes with the older sight had an easier
shot.
https://www.lonesentry.com/blog/k-14-gunsight.html