https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-65211616

Nora Forster, the wife of singer John Lydon, has died five years after being diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease.

The former Sex Pistols frontman was married to the German publishing heiress for 44 years. She was 80.

In recent years, he has spoken movingly about becoming a devoted carer for Forster as her illness took hold.

He also wrote a song for her which he tried to enter on behalf of Ireland for this year's Eurovision Song Contest, although it ultimately wasn't selected.

Lydon met Forster at Vivienne Westwood and Malcolm McLaren's punk boutique Sex in London in 1975, shortly before he shot to fame when the punk movement burst onto the national stage.

She was 14 years older than him and from a wealthy newspaper family, but had been working as a music promoter in Germany and then in London.

Her daughter Ariane, from her first marriage to singer Frank Forster, became better known as Ari Up, the singer with punk band The Slits.

After she died from breast cancer in 2010 at the age of 48, Forster and Lydon became legal guardians to her three children.

Lydon said he believed Forster showed the first signs of Alzheimer's after that. "A real sadness filled her because that's an inexplicable pain for a mother to lose her daughter," he told The Times in 2021.

"From there on it was small issues like constantly losing keys and it builds up over time. It happened so gradually, so slowly, that by the time it becomes a definite it's impossible to trace it through."

She was formally diagnosed in 2018, and he became her full-time carer as her condition deteriorated.

'No joy comes without pain'

She eventually found it difficult to recognise her husband. After Lydon appeared on the US version of TV show The Masked Singer in 2021, he told The Guardian: "I wanted to see if she guessed, and she did.

"She said, 'Johnny, it's you!' It was one of the best experiences of my life: how rewarding to hear her talk that way and keep her from switching off."

He then wrote what he described as a "pensive, personal yet universal love song" about a holiday they had taken to Hawaii, because that was one memory that stood out in her mind.

"Remember me, I remember you," he sang in the chorus.

With his group Public Image Ltd, he entered it to be Ireland's entry for this year's Eurovision Song Contest - Lydon's parents were Irish.

"It is dedicated to everyone going through tough times on the journey of life, with the person they care for the most," he said when it was announced. "It's also a message of hope that ultimately love conquers all."

Earlier this year, Lydon told the Sunday Times he had been deeply changed by taking care of his wife, and didn't know how he would be able to live without her.

"It's hideous. So pernicious and vile to watch someone you love just slowly disappear," he said.

But their life together had been "worth every moment", he said. "No joy comes without pain and, boy, do I know that now."

>
> She was 14 years older than him

"him"?

Not the sort of high quality grammar I would expect from the BBC.

To remember which pronoun to use, all one has to do is extend the sentence.

Hint: You wouldn't say "older than him was."

But incredibly, ever since the 1990s or so, English-speakers everywhere, it seems, have been saying "I" when they should say "me" - and vice versa, often. It's just getting worse.

Lydeon/Rotten was a millionaire-by-marriage. What happenee to all the anarchy he espoused in the years prior to the marriage?

Perhaps Johnny should take a good look at hinself in "Der Spiegel" (that translates to "mirror.").

I will say, though, that it's nice to see an obit that's practically a tribute to a couple that apparently worked hard to make their marriage last to the end - and succeeded.

(In show biz, when it comes to the people who became famous in the 1970s and 1980s, the number of couples who have been together over 40 years is probably under 30.)

So, I gather she was a Rotten wife?

And Lenona[.]: appreciate your tutorial, particularly in this pronoun-corrupting era. BUT: what's your explanation for the proliferation of the ungrammatical "like" that is so littering the spoken American landscape?

BRYAN STYBLE/Florida

>
> And Lenona[.]: appreciate your tutorial, particularly in this pronoun-corrupting era. BUT: what's your explanation for the proliferation of the ungrammatical "like" that is so littering the spoken American landscape?
>
> BRYAN STYBLE/Florida

People are sheep, that's all.

And just plain lazy when it comes to avoiding slang, which is fast-changing anyway, so what's the point of using it?

Not to mention dreadful political cliches. I will never say "mansplaining." If someone is being condescending, I will say so - and I will be prepared to defend that argument. (Hint: It's only prudent common courtesy, before one starts rattling on and on, to ask the listener "what do you know about X?")

Btw, I happen to know a certain Wall Street executive quite well (he's from Gen X) - and I can't believe how much HE uses "like" ungrammatically.

(He's certainly not sheeplike in any other sense.)

On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 12:07:33 PM UTC-7, Lenona wrote:
> >
> > She was 14 years older than him
> "him"?
>
> Not the sort of high quality grammar I would expect from the BBC.
>

Well, you cannot expect high quality to persist there is a new generation of BBC writers.
As for the grammar, I have no idea. I know nothing about grammar but I can usually tell if a sentence "sounds" grammatically correct.

"She was 14 years older than him" does not sound incorrect or low quality to me.

"She was 14 years older than he was" does sound a little better. But OTOH, the "older than he was" sort of suggests the husband is dead.

In any case, the headline made me do a double-take. A wife of a Sex Pistol is 80. I feel old.

In article <7bf6d0e6-455f-4ab5-86c5-11fcabcb88dbn@googlegroups.com>,
Lenona <lenona321@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> >
> > She was 14 years older than him
>
> "him"?
>
> Not the sort of high quality grammar I would expect from the BBC.
>
> To remember which pronoun to use, all one has to do is extend the sentence.
>
> Hint: You wouldn't say "older than him was."
>
> But incredibly, ever since the 1990s or so, English-speakers everywhere, it
> seems, have been saying "I" when they should say "me" - and vice versa,
> often. It's just getting worse.
>

As you say, it's supposed to be "She was 14 years older than he," but
they could have avoided the whole thing by saying "She was 14 years
older than Lydon."

On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 4:32:04 PM UTC-4, Raul TW wrote:
> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 12:07:33 PM UTC-7, Lenona wrote:
> > >
> > > She was 14 years older than him
> > "him"?
> >
> > Not the sort of high quality grammar I would expect from the BBC.
> >
> Well, you cannot expect high quality to persist there is a new generation of BBC writers.
> As for the grammar, I have no idea. I know nothing about grammar but I can usually tell if a sentence "sounds" grammatically correct.
>
> "She was 14 years older than him" does not sound incorrect or low quality to me.
>
> "She was 14 years older than he was" does sound a little better. But OTOH, the "older than he was" sort of suggests the husband is dead.
>

My point was that it could have been written as: "She was 14 years older than he."

But the writer chose not to, even though Grammarly exists. Like Google.

I admit, though, as 9-year-old in the 1970s, I had no idea what C.S. Lewis meant by the following - but I learned eventually, likely from someone online, since I didn't care enough to figure it out.

“ 'It isn’t her!' This was bad grammar of course, but that is how beavers talk when they are excited; I mean, in Narnia--in our world they usually don’t talk at all.”

In article <c608a933-3b27-4a27-94c9-869036e36454n@googlegroups.com>,
<"radioacti...@gmail.com"> wrote:

> So, I gather she was a Rotten wife?
>
> And Lenona[.]: appreciate your tutorial, particularly in this
> pronoun-corrupting era. BUT: what's your explanation for the proliferation
> of the ungrammatical "like" that is so littering the spoken American
> landscape?
>
> BRYAN STYBLE/Florida

Nothing new about that. Back when you could advertise cigarettes on
TV, the sell line for Winston cigarettes was "Winston tastes good like
a cigarette should." It was everywhere, as were the teachers who
complained over and over again about the improper English. The slogan
was certainly colloquial. So Winston advanced a campaign in which,
they said, they'd be correcting the language.

They didn't. Instead they changed the slogan to "Winston tastes good
like *your* cigarette should." Teachers suffered so much back then.

On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 1:56:27 PM UTC-7, Lenona wrote:

> My point was that it could have been written as: "She was 14 years older than he."
>
> But the writer chose not to, even though Grammarly exists. Like Google.

Exactly why is "She was 14 years older than he" preferred? It is grammatically correct.
I checked it with Grammarly. "She was 14 years older than him." does not raise any grammatical errors.

In article <63b50efe-9ee8-478c-9302-aa5d8cf61f77n@googlegroups.com>,
Raul TW <raultenniswarehouse@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 1:56:27?PM UTC-7, Lenona wrote:
>
> > My point was that it could have been written as: "She was 14 years older
> > than he."
> >
> > But the writer chose not to, even though Grammarly exists. Like Google.
>
>
> Exactly why is "She was 14 years older than he" preferred? It is
> grammatically correct. I checked it with Grammarly. "She was 14 years
> older than him." does not raise any grammatical errors.

Grammarly does not provide an argument here. There is no disputing
that "him" is incorrect, but there's also no disputing that "him" is
colloquial and is most often used. It's "he" because the pronoun is
the subject of a subordinate clause.

"She was 14 years older than he is old"

"She was 14 years older than him is old"

On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 3:16:25 PM UTC-7, A Friend wrote:
> In article <63b50efe-9ee8-478c...@googlegroups.com>,
> > On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 1:56:27?PM UTC-7, Lenona wrote:
> >
> > > My point was that it could have been written as: "She was 14 years older
> > > than he."
> > >
> > > But the writer chose not to, even though Grammarly exists. Like Google.
> >
> >
> > Exactly why is "She was 14 years older than he" preferred? It is
> > grammatically correct. I checked it with Grammarly. "She was 14 years
> > older than him." does not raise any grammatical errors.
> Grammarly does not provide an argument here. There is no disputing
> that "him" is incorrect, but there's also no disputing that "him" is
> colloquial and is most often used. It's "he" because the pronoun is
> the subject of a subordinate clause.
>

Had not heard of Grammarly until now. But it is developed by Google PhD's.
So the question still stands: If this is an indisputable error, why is this grammatical tool unable to detect this error?

On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 2:07:33 PM UTC-5, Lenona wrote:
> > She was 14 years older than him

The one that bugs me is something I hear all the time. And that is substituting "that" for "who." For example, "He was the guy that made it possible." I've even heard several of our Presidents do it, and they have speechwriters!! Okay, so our language isn't perfect and mistakes will be made despite our protestations, but sheeeesh! Let's at least TRY.

On Fri, 07 Apr 2023 18:16:16 -0400, A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:

>Grammarly does not provide an argument here. There is no disputing
>that "him" is incorrect,

Nonsense. Look harder, and you will find all the disputes you can stand to
read. Simply put, "than" is both a conjunction and a preposition, and in
this instance, it can be either. In "than he," it's a conjunction, and in
"than him," it's a preposition.

See https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/than

In addition to explaning the issue, it gives these examples:

"a man no mightier than thyself or me"
- William Shakespeare

"why should a man be better than me because he's richer than me"
- William Faulkner, in a talk to students

>but there's also no disputing that "him" is
>colloquial and is most often used. It's "he" because the pronoun is
>the subject of a subordinate clause.
>
>
>"She was 14 years older than he is old"
>
>"She was 14 years older than him is old"

No literate, fluent English speaker would ever say either one of those.

David Carson
--
Dead or Alive Data Base
http://www.doadb.com

radioacti...@gmail.com <radioactiveseattle@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, I gather she was a Rotten wife?

Are you trying to Lydon the mood?
> And Lenona[.]: appreciate your tutorial, particularly in this
> pronoun-corrupting era. BUT: what's your explanation for the proliferation
> of the ungrammatical "like" that is so littering the spoken American
> landscape?

If you're referring to interjected "likes"...
well,man,y'know...right?
Eh?

> BRYAN STYBLE/Florida

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

On 8/04/2023 10:52 am, MJ Emigh wrote:
> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 2:07:33 PM UTC-5, Lenona wrote:
>>> She was 14 years older than him
>
> The one that bugs me is something I hear all the time. And that is substituting "that" for "who." For example, "He was the guy that made it possible." I've even heard several of our Presidents do it, and they have speechwriters!! Okay, so >our language isn't perfect and mistakes will be made despite our protestations, but sheeeesh! Let's at least TRY.

The very worst is 'could of' instead of 'could have'.

'I could have won that game.'

'I could of won that game.'

Makes me angry every time.

In article <64312195$1@news.ausics.net>,
Whisper <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
....
>The very worst is 'could of' instead of 'could have'.
>
>'I could have won that game.'
>
>'I could of won that game.'
>
>Makes me angry every time.

In this post-literate, and cellphone-obsessed world in which we live, you'd
better just get used to accepting phonetic spelling as the new normal.

I really don't see the younguns going back on this.

--
Modern Conservative: Someone who can take time out from flashing her
wedding ring around and bragging about her honeymoon to complain that a
fellow secretary who keeps a picture of her girlfriend on her desk is
"flauting her sexuality" and "forcing her lifestyle down our throats".

Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
> In article <64312195$1@news.ausics.net>,
> Whisper <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> ...
>>The very worst is 'could of' instead of 'could have'.
>>
>>'I could have won that game.'
>>
>>'I could of won that game.'
>>
>>Makes me angry every time.
>
> In this post-literate, and cellphone-obsessed world in which we live, you'd
> better just get used to accepting phonetic spelling as the new normal.
>
> I really don't see the younguns going back on this.
>

Unless they do they can never stop being wrong,

just like any secretary unashamed to have a picture
of a "girlfriend" on her desk.[responding to sig]

Sometimes the "conservative" position is the only sane one,
no matter how often it's otherwise.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

On 4/7/2023 3:07 PM, Lenona wrote:
>
>>
>> She was 14 years older than him
>
> "him"?
>
> Not the sort of high quality grammar I would expect from the BBC.
>
> To remember which pronoun to use, all one has to do is extend the sentence.
>
> Hint: You wouldn't say "older than him was."
>
> But incredibly, ever since the 1990s or so, English-speakers everywhere,
> it seems, have been saying "I" when they should say "me" - and vice versa,
> often. It's just getting worse.

"1990s or so?" Try 1940s or so, the result
of elementary school teachers trying to deal
with kids saying things like "Tommy and me
went to the store" and hammering "Tommy and
I" into them as being the *only* acceptable
pairing in any circumstance. My 86-year-old
employer who fancies himself a writer, went
to Philips Exeter and Stanford (as an English
major), and taught poetry at several California
colleges early in his career (before having to
switch to finance) always uses "...and I",
and I, as his amanuensis and of-necessity
editor (and CFO), quietly change it wherever
"and me" is correct. (He's also allergic to
punctuation, especially proper comma usage.)
(As noted elsewhere in the thread, the simple
test is to drop the "Tommy and" and see which
word works alone, "me" or "I".)

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 7:52:23 AM UTC-4, David Samuel Barr wrote:
> On 4/7/2023 3:07 PM, Lenona wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> She was 14 years older than him
> >
> > "him"?
> >
> > Not the sort of high quality grammar I would expect from the BBC.
> >
> > To remember which pronoun to use, all one has to do is extend the sentence.
> >
> > Hint: You wouldn't say "older than him was."
> >
> > But incredibly, ever since the 1990s or so, English-speakers everywhere,
> > it seems, have been saying "I" when they should say "me" - and vice versa,
> > often. It's just getting worse.
> "1990s or so?" Try 1940s or so, the result
> of elementary school teachers trying to deal
> with kids saying things like "Tommy and me
> went to the store" and hammering "Tommy and
> I" into them as being the *only* acceptable
> pairing in any circumstance. My 86-year-old
> employer who fancies himself a writer, went
> to Philips Exeter and Stanford (as an English
> major), and taught poetry at several California
> colleges early in his career (before having to
> switch to finance) always uses "...and I",
> and I, as his amanuensis and of-necessity
> editor (and CFO), quietly change it wherever
> "and me" is correct.

I should have stated my first post better.

That is, yes, people have been misusing "me" practically forever.

But I don't recall the erroneous, pretentious use of "I" before the 1990s. It's as if people now think that it's better to use "I" as much as possible, whether it's correct or not.

The earliest I saw it, I think, was in a 1997 novel. The speaker was a middle-aged, wealthy businessman from the late 19th century.

What was weird was that it was pretty clear that that grammatical mistake was the AUTHOR's mistake - she likely didn't know better or was too lazy to write better.

(It was the late Connie Mason, whose bestselling books were, I admit, often crude.)

On 4/10/23 10:14 AM, Lenona wrote:
> But I don't recall the erroneous, pretentious use of "I" before the 1990s.

https://genius.com/The-doors-touch-me-lyrics

[Chorus]
Now, I'm going to love you
'Til the heavens stop the rain
I'm going to love you
'Til the stars fall from the sky
For you and I

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 11:38:05 AM UTC-4, mINE109 wrote:
> On 4/10/23 10:14 AM, Lenona wrote:
> > But I don't recall the erroneous, pretentious use of "I" before the 1990s.
> https://genius.com/The-doors-touch-me-lyrics
>
> [Chorus]
> Now, I'm going to love you
> 'Til the heavens stop the rain
> I'm going to love you
> 'Til the stars fall from the sky
> For you and I

Yes, well, that's known as "poetic license," right?

On 4/10/2023 10:38 AM, mINE109 wrote:
> On 4/10/23 10:14 AM, Lenona wrote:
>> But I don't recall the erroneous, pretentious use of "I" before the
>> 1990s.
>
> https://genius.com/The-doors-touch-me-lyrics
>
> [Chorus]
> Now, I'm going to love you
> 'Til the heavens stop the rain
> I'm going to love you
> 'Til the stars fall from the sky
> For you and I

https://genius.com/Yes-and-you-and-i-lyrics

[Refrain]
And you and I climb, crossing the shapes of the morning
And you and I reach over the sun for the river
And you and I climb, clearer towards the movement
And you and I called over valleys of endless seas

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:14:07 -0700 (PDT), Lenona <lenona321@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>That is, yes, people have been misusing "me" practically forever.
>
>But I don't recall the erroneous, pretentious use of "I" before the 1990s. It's as if people now think that it's better to use "I" as much as possible, whether it's correct or not.

As David Barr stated, it's been going on way longer than that. I know
that teachers usually explained the context and conditions for when
"me" and "I" are proper, but all that went over most the heads of most
kids of my generation; all they took away from it is "you and me" is
wrong, and "you and I" is right. And I know it goes back further than
my generation, because for my whole life, I've known people
significantly older than me ("than" is a preposition here, "me" is
correct, look it up) who habitually say "you and I" whether it's right
or wrong.

On a similar note, we kids were taught in school that we shouldn't
call our brown classmates Mexican because some are from Puerto Rico,
some are from other countries, and besides, they're Americans anyway.
It all makes perfect sense, except the takeaway was, "Mexican is a bad
word, and you shouldn't say it." Consequently, you now have
generations of Anglos who still to this day don't know how to politely
refer to to people from Mexico.