On 2022-09-11 5:36 p.m., RichA wrote:
> Ever see an engineering class at university? Out of 150 people, there might be 1 or 2 women.

Remember the Ecole Polytechnique massacre? Lepine shot the 9 women in
the 50 person mechanical engineering class. That was in 1989. That
actually pretty much reflects the modern numbers of female engineers in
the United States. Out of 150 working engineers 24 would be female.
And that's now, not centuries in the future.

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:04:33 -0700, David Johnston
<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2022-09-11 5:36 p.m., RichA wrote:
>> Ever see an engineering class at university? Out of 150 people, there might be 1 or 2 women.
>
> Remember the Ecole Polytechnique massacre? Lepine shot the 9 women in
>the 50 person mechanical engineering class. That was in 1989. That
>actually pretty much reflects the modern numbers of female engineers in
>the United States. Out of 150 working engineers 24 would be female.
>And that's now, not centuries in the future.

Your numbers are more in tune with my experience where we had plenty
of women in our classes at Tech including one Atlanta Falcons
cheerleader. Though from what I've been reading recently the numbers
are steadily equaling as more women are graduating college then men
now. Certainly I've seen more recent graduates that were female than
back when I graduated. The numbers are even more equal if we include
computer science grads and not just the engineering grads.

Given how Trek has always tried to show that people aren't
discriminated against in the Federation it would make sense to have
women spread out amongst all the jobs on a starship. Hell, they had
Tasha Yar as Chief of Security. If any role was expected to be male
that would be it, so there was equality being demonstrated even with
TNG.

On 2023-01-26 11:36 p.m., RichA wrote:
> On Friday, 27 January 2023 at 01:04:38 UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 2022-09-11 5:36 p.m., RichA wrote:
>>> Ever see an engineering class at university? Out of 150 people, there might be 1 or 2 women.
>> Remember the Ecole Polytechnique massacre? Lepine shot the 9 women in
>> the 50 person mechanical engineering class. That was in 1989. That
>> actually pretty much reflects the modern numbers of female engineers in
>> the United States. Out of 150 working engineers 24 would be female.
>> And that's now, not centuries in the future.
>
> Second-rate school. I was referring to the UofT or UofW, the primary engineering universities in Canada.

You have no idea how many women are taking engineering at UofT.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:04:33 -0700, David Johnston
> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-09-11 5:36 p.m., RichA wrote:
>>> Ever see an engineering class at university? Out of 150 people, there
>>> might be 1 or 2 women.
>>
>> Remember the Ecole Polytechnique massacre? Lepine shot the 9 women in
>> the 50 person mechanical engineering class. That was in 1989. That
>> actually pretty much reflects the modern numbers of female engineers in
>> the United States. Out of 150 working engineers 24 would be female.
>> And that's now, not centuries in the future.
>
> Your numbers are more in tune with my experience where we had plenty
> of women in our classes at Tech including one Atlanta Falcons
> cheerleader. Though from what I've been reading recently the numbers
> are steadily equaling as more women are graduating college then men
> now. Certainly I've seen more recent graduates that were female than
> back when I graduated. The numbers are even more equal if we include
> computer science grads and not just the engineering grads.
>
> Given how Trek has always tried to show that people aren't
> discriminated against in the Federation it would make sense to have
> women spread out amongst all the jobs on a starship. Hell, they had
> Tasha Yar as Chief of Security. If any role was expected to be male
> that would be it, so there was equality being demonstrated even with
> TNG.
>

Of course Tasha Yar was completely incompetent and got herself killed.

Beverly Crusher was far more incompetent and unfortunately did not get
herself killed.

Troi is a worthless idiot on and off screen.

At best this is affirmative action.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

In <345994716.696522112.766877.anim8rfsk-cox.net@news.easynews.com> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> writes:

[snip]
>> Given how Trek has always tried to show that people aren't
>> discriminated against in the Federation it would make sense to have
>> women spread out amongst all the jobs on a starship. Hell, they had
>> Tasha Yar as Chief of Security. If any role was expected to be male
>> that would be it, so there was equality being demonstrated even with
>> TNG.
>>

>Of course Tasha Yar was completely incompetent and got herself killed.

>Beverly Crusher was far more incompetent and unfortunately did not get
>herself killed.

>Troi is a worthless idiot on and off screen.

On the other hand, the original pilot ("The Cage")
had a pretty serious female "Number One" (who I had
blissfully forgotten was played by Majel Barrett. Oh well...)

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On 2023-01-27 10:04 AM, anim8rfsk wrote:
> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:04:33 -0700, David Johnston
>> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-09-11 5:36 p.m., RichA wrote:
>>>> Ever see an engineering class at university? Out of 150 people, there
>>>> might be 1 or 2 women.
>>>
>>> Remember the Ecole Polytechnique massacre? Lepine shot the 9 women in
>>> the 50 person mechanical engineering class. That was in 1989. That
>>> actually pretty much reflects the modern numbers of female engineers in
>>> the United States. Out of 150 working engineers 24 would be female.
>>> And that's now, not centuries in the future.
>>
As usual, Rich is literally decades behind the times. When I was in
university, in the late 70s, I was at University of Waterloo which was
well known for engineering and I knew lots of engineers. I distinctly
remember hearing from one of them - a female - that the percentage of
women in engineering that year was 3%. That was in 1977. I *know* the
percentages of female engineering students has grown considerably since
then but I'm not sure just how high the percentage is now.

I tried getting a number just now but only managed to find this:
https://uwaterloo.ca/women-in-engineering/

I'm sure that anyone sending them a polite email would get an answer of
what percentage of the engineering undergraduate population is female
(and non-binary)....

>> Your numbers are more in tune with my experience where we had plenty
>> of women in our classes at Tech including one Atlanta Falcons
>> cheerleader. Though from what I've been reading recently the numbers
>> are steadily equaling as more women are graduating college then men
>> now. Certainly I've seen more recent graduates that were female than
>> back when I graduated. The numbers are even more equal if we include
>> computer science grads and not just the engineering grads.
>>
>> Given how Trek has always tried to show that people aren't
>> discriminated against in the Federation it would make sense to have
>> women spread out amongst all the jobs on a starship. Hell, they had
>> Tasha Yar as Chief of Security. If any role was expected to be male
>> that would be it, so there was equality being demonstrated even with
>> TNG.
>>
>
> Of course Tasha Yar was completely incompetent and got herself killed.
>

> Beverly Crusher was far more incompetent and unfortunately did not get
> herself killed.
>
> Troi is a worthless idiot on and off screen.
>
> At best this is affirmative action.
>
>
Then again, the original security officer on The Orville was also female
but was competent and did NOT get herself killed; her replacement was
also a competent female who has not died yet either as I recall. Of
course The Orville is from *this* decade, not the 80s, so attitudes are
a bit different. (It doesn't hurt that both Orville security officers
have been Selayens (sp?) who have "super-strength" due to their planet's
far stronger gravity field. Tasha Yar might have done better if she had
had super-strength....

--
Rhino

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:43:11 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>On 2023-01-27 10:04 AM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:04:33 -0700, David Johnston
>>> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-09-11 5:36 p.m., RichA wrote:
>>>>> Ever see an engineering class at university? Out of 150 people, there
>>>>> might be 1 or 2 women.
>>>>
>>>> Remember the Ecole Polytechnique massacre? Lepine shot the 9 women in
>>>> the 50 person mechanical engineering class. That was in 1989. That
>>>> actually pretty much reflects the modern numbers of female engineers in
>>>> the United States. Out of 150 working engineers 24 would be female.
>>>> And that's now, not centuries in the future.
>>>
>As usual, Rich is literally decades behind the times. When I was in
>university, in the late 70s, I was at University of Waterloo which was
>well known for engineering and I knew lots of engineers. I distinctly
>remember hearing from one of them - a female - that the percentage of
>women in engineering that year was 3%. That was in 1977. I *know* the
>percentages of female engineering students has grown considerably since
>then but I'm not sure just how high the percentage is now.
>
>I tried getting a number just now but only managed to find this:
>https://uwaterloo.ca/women-in-engineering/
>
>I'm sure that anyone sending them a polite email would get an answer of
>what percentage of the engineering undergraduate population is female
>(and non-binary)....
>
>>> Your numbers are more in tune with my experience where we had plenty
>>> of women in our classes at Tech including one Atlanta Falcons
>>> cheerleader. Though from what I've been reading recently the numbers
>>> are steadily equaling as more women are graduating college then men
>>> now. Certainly I've seen more recent graduates that were female than
>>> back when I graduated. The numbers are even more equal if we include
>>> computer science grads and not just the engineering grads.
>>>
>>> Given how Trek has always tried to show that people aren't
>>> discriminated against in the Federation it would make sense to have
>>> women spread out amongst all the jobs on a starship. Hell, they had
>>> Tasha Yar as Chief of Security. If any role was expected to be male
>>> that would be it, so there was equality being demonstrated even with
>>> TNG.
>>>
>>
>> Of course Tasha Yar was completely incompetent and got herself killed.
>>
>
>> Beverly Crusher was far more incompetent and unfortunately did not get
>> herself killed.
>>
>> Troi is a worthless idiot on and off screen.
>>
>> At best this is affirmative action.
>>
>>
>Then again, the original security officer on The Orville was also female
>but was competent and did NOT get herself killed; her replacement was
>also a competent female who has not died yet either as I recall. Of
>course The Orville is from *this* decade, not the 80s, so attitudes are
>a bit different. (It doesn't hurt that both Orville security officers
>have been Selayens (sp?) who have "super-strength" due to their planet's
>far stronger gravity field. Tasha Yar might have done better if she had
>had super-strength....

No, Tasha Yar could have been as strong as Superman but it wouldn't
matter. When the actress decided she wanted off the show the
character's days were numbered. Nothing was going to save other than
Denise Crosby changing her mind. Since she didn't change her mind the
writers took the opportunity to permanently write the character out.

On 1/27/2023 7:04 AM, anim8rfsk wrote:
> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:04:33 -0700, David Johnston
>> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-09-11 5:36 p.m., RichA wrote:
>>>> Ever see an engineering class at university? Out of 150 people, there
>>>> might be 1 or 2 women.
>>>
>>> Remember the Ecole Polytechnique massacre? Lepine shot the 9 women in
>>> the 50 person mechanical engineering class. That was in 1989. That
>>> actually pretty much reflects the modern numbers of female engineers in
>>> the United States. Out of 150 working engineers 24 would be female.
>>> And that's now, not centuries in the future.
>>
>> Your numbers are more in tune with my experience where we had plenty
>> of women in our classes at Tech including one Atlanta Falcons
>> cheerleader. Though from what I've been reading recently the numbers
>> are steadily equaling as more women are graduating college then men
>> now. Certainly I've seen more recent graduates that were female than
>> back when I graduated. The numbers are even more equal if we include
>> computer science grads and not just the engineering grads.
>>
>> Given how Trek has always tried to show that people aren't
>> discriminated against in the Federation it would make sense to have
>> women spread out amongst all the jobs on a starship. Hell, they had
>> Tasha Yar as Chief of Security. If any role was expected to be male
>> that would be it, so there was equality being demonstrated even with
>> TNG.
>>
>
> Of course Tasha Yar was completely incompetent and got herself killed.
>
> Beverly Crusher was far more incompetent and unfortunately did not get
> herself killed.
>
> Troi is a worthless idiot on and off screen.
>
> At best this is affirmative action.
>
Wasn't the first chief engineer of Enterprise-D female before Geordi got
promoted to the position?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 5:26:37 PM UTC-5, RichA wrote:
> On Friday, 27 January 2023 at 04:29:22 UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 2023-01-26 11:36 p.m., RichA wrote:
> > > On Friday, 27 January 2023 at 01:04:38 UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
> > >> On 2022-09-11 5:36 p.m., RichA wrote:
> > >>> Ever see an engineering class at university? Out of 150 people, there might be 1 or 2 women.
> > >> Remember the Ecole Polytechnique massacre? Lepine shot the 9 women in
> > >> the 50 person mechanical engineering class. That was in 1989. That
> > >> actually pretty much reflects the modern numbers of female engineers in
> > >> the United States. Out of 150 working engineers 24 would be female.
> > >> And that's now, not centuries in the future.
> > >
> > > Second-rate school. I was referring to the UofT or UofW, the primary engineering universities in Canada.
> > You have no idea how many women are taking engineering at UofT.
> Now? Right now? This year? I was at the UofT about 4 months ago and saw the latest photograph of the engineering department including undergrads and grads. I saw a lot of Asians, quite a few whites, but FEW females of any stripe.
> What I would like to know is, if Star Trek as it has said chooses people who are the cream of the crop (Remember Finney and his one mistake??) then what are the chances that a FEMALE would have outdone EVERY SINGLE MALE of ANY speHcies?? Slim to NONE. Maybe she's a Vulcan...

Don't you get sick of being wrong about absolutely EVERYTHING?

This is an article from the Canadian Encyclopedia:
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/female-university-enrolment-exceeds-male

Here is the most relevant passage:
==============================Only engineering, computer science and the physical sciences remain strongholds for men at the undergraduate level. And just three male bastions in higher education are left: the University of Waterloo (54 per cent male), the University of Ontario Institute of Technology (58 per cent male) and - big surprise - Kingston's Royal Military College (78 per cent male).
=============================
The article is dated 2006 and asserts that female enrollment at universities across Canada was about 60% and has only been going up since 1981 when female enrollment caught up to male enrollment. By all accounts, this trend has continued in the intervening years.