Curious.

In 1962 Kennedy threw a hissy fit when Russians tried to put missiles
into Cuba. And was quick to invoke the "Monroe Doctrine".

Now when Russia does the same, referring to NATO recruitments of
smaller Eastern nations, the USA gets all upset.

Pot, Kettle, Black!

Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.

The USA might be better off attending to its constellation of internal
problems, and also greasing the bearings of all those dollar-printing
machines. Green indeed is America's attention Span!

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 07:29:39 +1100, Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote:

>Curious.
>
>In 1962 Kennedy threw a hissy fit when Russians tried to put missiles
>into Cuba. And was quick to invoke the "Monroe Doctrine".
>
>Now when Russia does the same, referring to NATO recruitments of
>smaller Eastern nations, the USA gets all upset.
>
>Pot, Kettle, Black!
>
>Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
>years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.

So Russia is a shining example of a strong incorruptible government?

I want some of whatever it is you're smoking.

Quite apart from anything else Putin is badly misplaying this. All
he's doing by pressuring Ukraine at this point is encouraging Europe
and the US to do precisely what he doesn't want.

I don't believe the US or Europe has any desire to expand NATO further
east but they don't like attempted bullying either and the best way to
get not only Ukraine but other countries Putin would rather not have
in NATO (for ex. Sweden and Finland) would be to continue his
bellicosity.

>The USA might be better off attending to its constellation of internal
>problems, and also greasing the bearings of all those dollar-printing
>machines. Green indeed is America's attention Span!
>
Not sure I know exactly what you mean by that but no question Green is
Washington's favorite color - otherwise Beijing would have had several
ultimatums on foreign policy, foreign trade, interference in other
ccountry's politics, bullying and subversion in the Overseas Chinese
community and their social organizations, massive theft of
intellectual property - just for starters.

On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 15:01:28 -0800, The Horny Goat wrote:

> I don't believe the US or Europe has any desire to expand NATO further
> east

Fear where it is going. There are several states, e.g. the Baltic states.
The other problem is both the UK and the US have given the Ukraine
guarantees, these have not been honored.

> but they don't like attempted bullying either and the best way to
> get not only Ukraine

NATO would never agree unless Ukraine gave up Crimea and settled Donbas. I
am not sure what the Ukraine would think of that. Then the next question I
doubt NATO wants to get involved in a mess.

> but other countries Putin would rather not have
> in NATO (for ex. Sweden and Finland) would be to continue his
> bellicosity.

Sweden's military is minor, so not much of a gain for NATO, Finland is
significant.

The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 07:29:39 +1100, Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote:
>
>> Curious.
>>
>> In 1962 Kennedy threw a hissy fit when Russians tried to put missiles
>> into Cuba. And was quick to invoke the "Monroe Doctrine".
>>
You forgot to mention that the USA had to withdraw their nuclear
missiles from Turkey as price for the Sovjet withdrawal...
OK, USAn patriots tend to leave that small fact out of the big picture.

>> Now when Russia does the same, referring to NATO recruitments of
>> smaller Eastern nations, the USA gets all upset.
>>
Yes; now let's see what Russia offers (see above).

>> Pot, Kettle, Black!
>>
>> Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
>> years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.
>
Someone should mention that the Russians have been de-stabilising the
Ukraine for the past 30 years...

> So Russia is a shining example of a strong incorruptible government?
>
Yes, it is. Because nobody can afford to corrupt Putin ;-)

> I want some of whatever it is you're smoking.
>
<AOL> Subscirbe!</AOL>

> Quite apart from anything else Putin is badly misplaying this. All
> he's doing by pressuring Ukraine at this point is encouraging Europe
> and the US to do precisely what he doesn't want.
>
Nope. He has seen that Europe is deeply divided towards Russia.
See last Ukrainian intervention.

> I don't believe the US or Europe has any desire to expand NATO further
> east but they don't like attempted bullying either and the best way to
> get not only Ukraine but other countries Putin would rather not have
> in NATO (for ex. Sweden and Finland) would be to continue his
> bellicosity.
>
Europe didn't even want to expand the EU farther east (Rumania, Bulgaria
and other failed states). But thanks to US pressure...

>> The USA might be better off attending to its constellation of internal
>> problems, and also greasing the bearings of all those dollar-printing
>> machines. Green indeed is America's attention Span!
>>
Until the Chinese present the tab...

> Not sure I know exactly what you mean by that but no question Green is
> Washington's favorite color - otherwise Beijing would have had several
> ultimatums on foreign policy, foreign trade, interference in other
> ccountry's politics, bullying and subversion in the Overseas Chinese
> community and their social organizations, massive theft of
> intellectual property - just for starters.
>

Not to forget impeding the freedom of international waters...

Cheers,
Michael Küttner

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 15:36:14 +1100, SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 15:01:28 -0800, The Horny Goat wrote:
>
>> I don't believe the US or Europe has any desire to expand NATO further
>> east
>
>Fear where it is going. There are several states, e.g. the Baltic states.
>The other problem is both the UK and the US have given the Ukraine
>guarantees, these have not been honored.

Estonia has seen a large scale cyber-attack coming from Russia.
Obviously in such cases the extent to there is state sponsorship of
such activities is unclear which is presumably why they thought they
could get away with it. In Putin's world this is called "sending a
message"

>> but they don't like attempted bullying either and the best way to
>> get not only Ukraine
>
>NATO would never agree unless Ukraine gave up Crimea and settled Donbas. I
>am not sure what the Ukraine would think of that. Then the next question I
>doubt NATO wants to get involved in a mess.
>
This of course is the reason it has not already happened.

It would take a mindnumbing level of stupidity on Putin's part to make
NATO think allowing Ukraine to join would be a good idea. (Or at least
less bad than other options) Really really mindnumbing. Perhaps I
didn't make it clear that that was my main point.

>> but other countries Putin would rather not have
>> in NATO (for ex. Sweden and Finland) would be to continue his
>> bellicosity.
>
>Sweden's military is minor, so not much of a gain for NATO, Finland is
>significant.
>
Not to mention that Finland unlike Sweden has quite a long border with
Russia and nobody in the Kremlin wants a repeat of 1939-40.

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 17:19:16 +0100, Mikgmx <Michael.Kuettner@gmx.at>
wrote:

>>> In 1962 Kennedy threw a hissy fit when Russians tried to put missiles
>>> into Cuba. And was quick to invoke the "Monroe Doctrine".
>>>
>You forgot to mention that the USA had to withdraw their nuclear
>missiles from Turkey as price for the Sovjet withdrawal...
>OK, USAn patriots tend to leave that small fact out of the big picture.

And you didn't mention that those Turkish missiles were considered
obsolete and scheduled for removal within 2 years Cuba or no Cuba.

Removing them was a convenient fig leaf for Khrushchev - nothing more
- and I personally am convinced that the Cuban Missile Crisis was the
incident that started the cabal that led to his ouster in 1964.

On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 15:01:28 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 07:29:39 +1100, Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote:
>
>>Curious.
>>
>>In 1962 Kennedy threw a hissy fit when Russians tried to put missiles
>>into Cuba. And was quick to invoke the "Monroe Doctrine".
>>
>>Now when Russia does the same, referring to NATO recruitments of
>>smaller Eastern nations, the USA gets all upset.
>>
>>Pot, Kettle, Black!
>>
>>Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
>>years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.
>
>So Russia is a shining example of a strong incorruptible government?

Democracy does not work in all countries. Russia, as usual, has a
Czar, oligarchs (nobles), etc. Such a huge nation with a polyglot of
races will not accept democracy because the losers will always accuse
the winners of cheating!
>
>I want some of whatever it is you're smoking.

Nope.

>
>Quite apart from anything else Putin is badly misplaying this. All
>he's doing by pressuring Ukraine at this point is encouraging Europe
>and the US to do precisely what he doesn't want.

Well, Frederick II (the great) did the same with Silesia. Keep the
army prepared & await that magic opportunity. All that coal in
Silesia, and all that black earth in Ukraine!
>
>I don't believe the US or Europe has any desire to expand NATO further
>east but they don't like attempted bullying either and the best way to
>get not only Ukraine but other countries Putin would rather not have
>in NATO (for ex. Sweden and Finland) would be to continue his
>bellicosity.

Why would Putin risk it?
>
>>The USA might be better off attending to its constellation of internal
>>problems, and also greasing the bearings of all those dollar-printing
>>machines. Green indeed is America's attention Span!
>>
>Not sure I know exactly what you mean by that but no question Green is
>Washington's favorite color - otherwise Beijing would have had several
>ultimatums on foreign policy, foreign trade, interference in other
>ccountry's politics, bullying and subversion in the Overseas Chinese
>community and their social organizations, massive theft of
>intellectual property - just for starters.

I mean the USA fed the Imperial Dragon from the 1980s onwards, all in
search of cheap labor. Feed the Dear People cheaper prices and
your're sure to get elected. Sadly there were victims and so Trump
got elected.
Repent at leisure!

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 12:14:59 +1100, Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote:

>>Quite apart from anything else Putin is badly misplaying this. All
>>he's doing by pressuring Ukraine at this point is encouraging Europe
>>and the US to do precisely what he doesn't want.
>
>Well, Frederick II (the great) did the same with Silesia. Keep the
>army prepared & await that magic opportunity. All that coal in
>Silesia, and all that black earth in Ukraine!

The differences being that Frederick won his biggest victories when he
was the numerical underdog - still it was in a time where alliances
were far less important than now and everyone expected Austria to win
a decisive victory. As opposed to Russia v. Ukraine now where the two
options are 'Russian major victory' or 'Stalemate' - nobody expects to
see Kiev marching on Moscow.

> Peter Jason
>
> Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
> years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.

Russia’s entire history has been one of aggression and straight-up conquering
their neighbors.

Fuck ‘em.

On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 07:35:21 -0800 (PST), Ed Stasiak
<edstasiak1067@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Peter Jason
>>
>> Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
>> years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.
>
>Russia’s entire history has been one of aggression and straight-up conquering
>their neighbors.
>
>Fuck ‘em.

The English took the lead with India, America etc. It was then the
done thing.