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interests / alt.obituaries / Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27

SubjectAuthor
* Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27Meteorite Debris
`* Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27radioacti...@gmail.com
 `* Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27Adam H. Kerman
  +* Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27radioacti...@gmail.com
  |`- Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27Adam H. Kerman
  `* Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27Raul TW
   +- Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27Kenny McCormack
   `* Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27Louis Epstein
    `- Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27Raul TW

1
Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27

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Subject: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27
From: peter.gr...@gmail.com (Meteorite Debris)
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 by: Meteorite Debris - Sat, 27 May 2023 08:37 UTC

His 100th birthday is an opportunity of a long healthy denied so many victims of his policies as Secretary of State. The war criminal should be celebrating his centennial birthday in an orange jumpsuit.

Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27

<d6cb53fe-6937-4469-b396-8dd5a184373dn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27
From: radioact...@gmail.com (radioacti...@gmail.com)
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 by: radioacti...@gmail.c - Sun, 28 May 2023 14:37 UTC

Sir/Madam Meteorite (or any other of Kissinger's various across-the-ideological-spectrum critics):

I'm afraid I harbor a seriously disparate view of Kissinger, but I may be simply ignorant of his transgressions.

I admit my positive is based on quite biased readings; to wit, his own books: the early-career "Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy" while he was still on the Harvard faculty, and his rather recent "Balance of Power". Those works--and just following him in the news ever since his China initiative in 1972--has made me something of a Kissinger fan, and I certainly congratulate him on making the 100 milestone.

But I'm ALSO a huge fan of the late Christopher Hitchens, whom I gather shared your righteous contempt for him. Alas, I've yet to read Hitchens's "The Trials of Henry Kissinger"...but I be you HAVE. Might you kindly roster those deeds which brought you to your severe assessment of the undeniably colorful former Secretary of State?

Thanks in advance!

BRYAN STYBLE/Florida

Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27

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From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: alt.obituaries
Subject: Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27
Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 15:22:24 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Adam H. Kerman - Sun, 28 May 2023 15:22 UTC

radioactiveseattle@gmail.com wrote:

>Sir/Madam Meteorite (or any other of Kissinger's various
>across-the-ideological-spectrum critics):

It's not ideology.

>I'm afraid I harbor a seriously disparate view of Kissinger, but I may
>be simply ignorant of his transgressions.

Kissinger was part of a group within the Nixon administration that
secretly expanded the Viet Nam War into Laos and Cambodia. This action
resulted in a situation in Cambodia leading to the collapse of the
regime. The Khmer Rouge regime and Pol Pot filled the power vacuum. The
crimes of this regime -- millions dead -- are very much on topic in this
newsgroup.

Kissinger also helped to provide cover for Nixon, who campaigned in 1968
on having a secret plan to end the Vietnam War. As a candidate, they
were ILLEGALLY engaged in back-channel negotiations to make the war
worse to aid Nixon's campaign.

Of course there was no secret plan, and the "deal" Nixon eventually
negotiated in his second term -- peace with honor -- was no better than
the deal he could have gotten four years earlier. Of course, it wasn't
peace at all as the war continued till 1975.

Other than this, I'm sure he's a fine fellow.

>. . .

Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27

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Subject: Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27
From: radioact...@gmail.com (radioacti...@gmail.com)
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 by: radioacti...@gmail.c - Mon, 29 May 2023 05:28 UTC

Thanks for your effort regarding Kissinger's history.

Actually, I knew the Laos and Cambodia stuff, but attribute the Khymer Rouge genocide to Pol Pot and his minions; I will grant you, however, that I blanched when as a high school freshman I read Newweek's 1970 cover blurb: NOW IT'S THE INDOCHINA WAR...and not merely because my sole sibling--an older brother draftee--was over there then. (He survived in his artillery regement, but was wounded twice; I suppose I wasn't drafted purely by accident of later birth year.)

Anyway, you've inspired me to finally getting around to prioritizing the reading of Hitchens's Kissinger book; he hated him more than even you, and I may TOO, after perusing it sometime soon.

But even if, I'd still be glad he made 100, Adam. As I often said herein, I don't celebrate (much less WISH) anyone's death, even those who for whatever reason deserve to die. Hope you make 100+ yourself, and me too (though for my utterly inconsequential part, I could quite easily expire hours--or minutes--from now...and in such an event, I suppose it's good that I never see the good-riddance-to-the-jerk celebratory comments of my own death herein by my various critics, signed or anonymous.

Meanwhile, I'd encourage you and everyone else to remember the American war dead this holiday; kindly focus on them (even back to the Revolution, The War of 1812, and the Mexican War, rather than merely those within memory) rather than veterans, as vets have their own holiday, as you know, in November.

Again, appreciate your posting effort.

STYBLE/Florida

Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27

<46c844ff-847f-40ff-8e41-7f506555a329n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27
From: raultenn...@gmail.com (Raul TW)
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 by: Raul TW - Mon, 29 May 2023 06:11 UTC

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 8:24:14 AM UTC-7, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> Kissinger also helped to provide cover for Nixon, who campaigned in 1968
> on having a secret plan to end the Vietnam War. As a candidate, they
> were ILLEGALLY engaged in back-channel negotiations to make the war
> worse to aid Nixon's campaign.
>

Not plausible that someone not holding office(even the ex-VP Nixon) would be involved in negotiations. That would be a treasonous offense.

Imagine if candidate Trump was engaged in back-channel negotiations with Ukraine. Not believable.

Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27

<u51hti$9adp$1@news.xmission.com>

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From: gaze...@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack)
Newsgroups: alt.obituaries
Subject: Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27
Date: Mon, 29 May 2023 06:49:22 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Kenny McCormack - Mon, 29 May 2023 06:49 UTC

In article <46c844ff-847f-40ff-8e41-7f506555a329n@googlegroups.com>,
Raul TW <raultenniswarehouse@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 8:24:14AM UTC-7, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>
>> Kissinger also helped to provide cover for Nixon, who campaigned in 1968
>> on having a secret plan to end the Vietnam War. As a candidate, they
>> were ILLEGALLY engaged in back-channel negotiations to make the war
>> worse to aid Nixon's campaign.
>>
>
>Not plausible that someone not holding office(even the ex-VP Nixon) would
>be involved in negotiations. That would be a treasonous offense.
>
>Imagine if candidate Trump was engaged in back-channel negotiations with
>Ukraine. Not believable.
>

I see what you did there.

--
People often ask what is the difference between liberals and conservatives.
It is this. Libs see the government helping them and are OK with the government
also helping other people. Cons see the government screwing them and are OK
with that as long as the government is also screwing other people.

Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27

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From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: alt.obituaries
Subject: Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27
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 by: Adam H. Kerman - Mon, 29 May 2023 12:46 UTC

radioactiveseattle@gmail.com wrote:

>Thanks for your effort regarding Kissinger's history.

>Actually, I knew the Laos and Cambodia stuff, but attribute the Khymer
>Rouge genocide to Pol Pot and his minions;

I'm not blaming Kissinger and the others in the group in the Nixon
administration who secretly expanded the war into neighboring countries
for the genocide committed by the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot. That was an
unintended consequence. I've also forgotten what happened in Laos after
the war got expanded.

It's just the main counter-example that Kissinger's self-proclaimed
reputation as grand strategist upon the world stage is utterly
underserved.

>I will grant you, however,
>that I blanched when as a high school freshman I read Newweek's 1970
>cover blurb: NOW IT'S THE INDOCHINA WAR...and not merely because my
>sole sibling--an older brother draftee--was over there then. (He
>survived in his artillery regement, but was wounded twice; I suppose I
>wasn't drafted purely by accident of later birth year.)

Glad your brother got out alive.

>Anyway, you've inspired me to finally getting around to prioritizing the
>reading of Hitchens's Kissinger book; he hated him more than even you,
>and I may TOO, after perusing it sometime soon.

I don't hate Kissinger. I look at the Nixon administration as history,
and that Kissinger was part of it. I have much stronger feelings about
the antics of the Dulles brothers and the way they managed to keep their
wars and diplomacy secret from Eisenhower, and who secretly got the
United States to take over the Indochina debacle from France after
Dien Bien Phu. Then the Kennedy brothers escalated 'cuz Robert saw this
Commie threat in a part of the world that no American without foreign
policy experience was familiar with as challenging the interests of
America. If John hadn't been assasinated, I've always guessed that an
excuse would have been found months before the Gulf of Tonkin incident
to dramatically scale up America's involvement.

Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27

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From: le...@main.lekno.ws (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.obituaries
Subject: Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27
Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 13:45:13 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Louis Epstein - Tue, 30 May 2023 13:45 UTC

Raul TW <raultenniswarehouse@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 8:24:14?AM UTC-7, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>
>> Kissinger also helped to provide cover for Nixon, who campaigned in 1968
>> on having a secret plan to end the Vietnam War. As a candidate, they
>> were ILLEGALLY engaged in back-channel negotiations to make the war
>> worse to aid Nixon's campaign.
>>
>
> Not plausible that someone not holding office(even the ex-VP Nixon) would be involved in negotiations. That would be a treasonous offense.
>
> Imagine if candidate Trump was engaged in back-channel negotiations with
> Ukraine. Not believable.

Remember Reagan's team scheming to delay the return of hostages
from Iran rather than have Carter's presidency succeed there.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27

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Subject: Re: Turning 100 Henry Kissinger on May 27
From: raultenn...@gmail.com (Raul TW)
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 by: Raul TW - Tue, 30 May 2023 18:26 UTC

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 6:45:16 AM UTC-7, Louis Epstein wrote:
> Raul TW <raultenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 8:24:14?AM UTC-7, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> >
> >> Kissinger also helped to provide cover for Nixon, who campaigned in 1968
> >> on having a secret plan to end the Vietnam War. As a candidate, they
> >> were ILLEGALLY engaged in back-channel negotiations to make the war
> >> worse to aid Nixon's campaign.
> >>
> >
> > Not plausible that someone not holding office(even the ex-VP Nixon) would be involved in negotiations. That would be a treasonous offense.
> >
> > Imagine if candidate Trump was engaged in back-channel negotiations with
> > Ukraine. Not believable.
> Remember Reagan's team scheming to delay the return of hostages
> from Iran rather than have Carter's presidency succeed there.
>
> -=-=-
> The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
> at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

The hostages were released minutes after Reagan was sworn in. Recall many at the time saying that Iran
did not want to deal with Reagan's more hardline approach (likely a military response).

Hard to believe that Iran could be convinced to delay the release believing that they could get a better deal under Reagan.

There were ongoing negotiations under Carter, centering around unfreezing Iranian assets and that is what led to the release. Unfortunately for Carter, the release did not happen in October. No October surprise. Even though Reagan won in a massive landslide, the polls were very close in the final weeks. Of course there were other factors such as a bad economy. But Carter believes he would have won had the release occurred earlier. I believe Reagan wins even with an October release, but I can definitely see the election being much closer than it was.

Mar 20, 2023
New claim about Iran hostage crisis sabotage may change narrative of Carter presidency.
Jonathan Alter, author of "His Very Best: Jimmy Carter, A Life," joined Geoff Bennett to discuss.
https://youtu.be/f12IQiV2oxU?t=128

In 1980, a prominent Republican sought to sabotage then-President Jimmy Carter's re-election by asking Middle Eastern leaders to get a message to the Iranians; keep the American hostages until after the election and Reagan will give you a better deal. That's according to a New York Times report.

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