https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/23/theater/sheldon-harnick-dead.html

From 1964 - Harnick sings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qre5PT2V3jk
(almost 6 minutes long)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfWay4hh5HY
(Song cut from "Fiddler" - "When Messiah Comes" (with an audience) - and Harnick appears afterward and explains why it was cut - apparently, that made Zero Mostel very unhappy)

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22when+messiah+comes%22+roof&biw=1366&bih=649&tbm=vid&ei=b6iVZKCXNequ5NoPi7aW4A0&ved=0ahUKEwjgipTLydn_AhVqF1kFHQubBdwQ4dUDCA0&uact=5&oq=%22when+messiah+comes%22+roof&gs_lcp=Cg1nd3Mtd2l6LXZpZGVvEAMyBggAEBYQHjIICAAQigUQhgMyCAgAEIoFEIYDOgUIABCABFCvA1iPCmDVC2gAcAB4AIAB6wGIAdYIkgEFMC40LjKYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz-video
(more recordings of "When Messiah Comes" - take your pick)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSH4jxSxKzA

(2:19 minutes - "Hasidic Jews Watch "Fiddler on the Roof" For the First Time" - for what it's worth, my late gentile musician mother didn't like the movie much either, because of the "inauthentic" music and dancing)

On 6/23/2023 10:34 AM, Lenona wrote:
> From 1964 - Harnick sings:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qre5PT2V3jk
> (almost 6 minutes long)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfWay4hh5HY
> (Song cut from "Fiddler" - "When Messiah Comes" (with an audience) - and Harnick appears afterward
> and explains why it was cut - apparently, that made Zero Mostel very unhappy)

As he says, at the point of the show where
it was first placed it didn't work but out of
context, on its own, it does. There doesn't
seem to have been a consideration that it
could have been relocated to a different
point in the show where it might have worked
and also appeased Mostel in the process. In
any event, fewer than half the songs that
were written for the show ended up in it.

> https://www.google.com/search?q=%22when+messiah+comes%22+roof&biw=1366&bih=649&tbm=vid&ei=b6iVZKCXNequ5NoPi7aW4A0&ved=0ahUKEwjgipTLydn_AhVqF1kFHQubBdwQ4dUDCA0&uact=5&oq=%22when+messiah+comes%22+roof&gs_lcp=Cg1nd3Mtd2l6LXZpZGVvEAMyBggAEBYQHjIICAAQigUQhgMyCAgAEIoFEIYDOgUIABCABFCvA1iPCmDVC2gAcAB4AIAB6wGIAdYIkgEFMC40LjKYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz-video
> (more recordings of "When Messiah Comes" - take your pick)

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSH4jxSxKzA
> (2:19 minutes - "Hasidic Jews Watch "Fiddler on the Roof" For the First Time" - for what it's worth, my
> late gentile musician mother didn't like the movie much either, because of the "inauthentic" music and
> dancing)

Movie adaptations of stage musicals routinely
make a lot of alterations to the book and score,
usually to negative effect ("West Side Story" is
a classic example of this) which is why it is
often a mistake to present the movie to people
being asked to evaluate a show. As correctly
pointed out in the notes to this YouTube,
"Fiddler" is not about Hasidim--Hasidim were
Russian Jews, but not all Russian Jews were
Hasidim--nor were Bock and Harnick trying to do
an "authentic" documentary of either, although
Bock still tried to give the score some of the
general sound of what people tend to associate
with "Jewish" (East European) music.

I had the privilege of talking with Harnick for
a while after a seminar on Broadway orchestration
in 2009 (Bock was supposed to have been there as
well but was too ill to attend) and while "Fiddler"
seemed to be most on the mind of those who
presented questions to him during it I mostly
discussed with him "The Apple Tree", a production
of which I did in prep school 50 years ago and
which is still my favourite of theirs ["The
Rothschilds" is #2, "Fiddler" #3] and he seemed
happy to be asked to talk about his work other
than "Fiddler". (He also signed my score of the
show, as did Elliot Lawrence, the show's original
Broadway conductor.) Even now I routinely use
one of the show's lyrics to describe my current
employer (whose after-hours demands once kept me
from an opportunity to meet Alan Alda [who
starred in it on Broadway] and get his signature
added to the score as well).

David Samuel Barr <dsbarr@mindspring.com> wrote:

>>. . .

>Movie adaptations of stage musicals routinely
>make a lot of alterations to the book and score,
>usually to negative effect ("West Side Story" is
>a classic example of this)

What are you talking about? The book for West Side Story is notoriously
awful. The language was willfully out of date, just slang Arthur
Laurents recalled from childhood, that he then twisted into
unrecognizeable language. It was not language from the era in which it
was set. Yes, we know why Laurents did it but it ended up sounding
incredbily stupid.

There were a number of changes to soften lyrics due to movie censorship
of the time.

But the biggest change of all was that Maria doesn't actually commit
suicide and the two sets of warring parents don't even exist in the show
to survive the tragedy and then to explain what we learned tonight to
the audience. That's between Laurents and Shakespeare.

>which is why it is often a mistake to present the movie to people
>being asked to evaluate a show. As correctly
>pointed out in the notes to this YouTube,
>"Fiddler" is not about Hasidim--Hasidim were
>Russian Jews,

Ukrainian! It spread throughout central and eastern Europe. The people
depicted in the musical are clearly NOT Hasidic. There's a rabbi, for
Pete's sake!

Note that the benign/comic matchmaker ain't the way Sholom Aleichem
would have written about matchmakers, who were villains tricking very
young women into indenture.

>but not all Russian Jews were
>Hasidim--nor were Bock and Harnick trying to do
>an "authentic" documentary of either, although
>Bock still tried to give the score some of the
>general sound of what people tend to associate
>with "Jewish" (East European) music.

I liked the melodies. I never got the criticism that it wasn't adapted
from genuine folk music; it sure sounded like it. In any event, Bock was
the composer and he gets to write whatever he thinks works for the show.
Whoever doesn't like it is free to write his own music.

>I had the privilege of talking with Harnick for
>a while after a seminar on Broadway orchestration
>in 2009 (Bock was supposed to have been there as
>well but was too ill to attend) and while "Fiddler"
>seemed to be most on the mind of those who
>presented questions to him during it I mostly
>discussed with him "The Apple Tree", a production
>of which I did in prep school 50 years ago and
>which is still my favourite of theirs

Hey, that's very cool.

>. . .

On 6/25/2023 6:40 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> David Samuel Barr <dsbarr@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>> . . .
>
>> Movie adaptations of stage musicals routinely
>> make a lot of alterations to the book and score,
>> usually to negative effect ("West Side Story" is
>> a classic example of this)
>
> What are you talking about? The book for West Side Story is notoriously
> awful. The language was willfully out of date, just slang Arthur
> Laurents recalled from childhood, that he then twisted into
> unrecognizeable language. It was not language from the era in which it
> was set. Yes, we know why Laurents did it but it ended up sounding
> incredbily stupid.
>
> There were a number of changes to soften lyrics due to movie censorship
> of the time.
>
> But the biggest change of all was that Maria doesn't actually commit
> suicide and the two sets of warring parents don't even exist in the show
> to survive the tragedy and then to explain what we learned tonight to
> the audience. That's between Laurents and Shakespeare.

You're making a complete different argument,
debating whether WSS was faithful to Romeo
& Juliet (and all of R&J's antecedents).
Of course it wasn't, nor was it intended to
be. I'm simply pointing out the changes that
were made between the original WSS stage
book and the 1961* movie script, some of
which forced the changes (without Sondheim's
approval) of some of the song lyrics (apart
from those based on censoring some things
which today wouldn't cause anyone to blink
an eye). As to Laurents's language, yes,
the book was pretty awful, but it was
written contemporaneously with the action
(both in the mid-1950s). If you're arguing
that he intentionally put 1920s-30s slang
into the mouths of 1950s teens I don't see
the evidence of that, just of incompetent
writing, which was worsened in subsequent
attempts to "update" the book for revivals
(including the Laurents-directed effort to
make it bilingual). In any event, I simply
used WSS as just one example in making the
point that many/most adaptations of
stage musicals to movie do violence to
the originals through alterations and cuts,
as also occurred with "Fiddler". (* I
haven't seen the 2021 WSS film; from what
I've read about it it does far worse damage
to the original so I have no wish to see it.)

>> which is why it is often a mistake to present
>> the movie to people being asked to evaluate
>> a show. As correctly pointed out in the notes
>> to this YouTube, "Fiddler" is not about Hasidim--
>> Hasidim were Russian Jews,
>
> Ukrainian! It spread throughout central and eastern Europe.

While the Baal Shem Tov is believed to have been
born in an outpost in what was then Poland and is
now Ukraine, the fact is that most of that area
(including Poland, Lithuania, etc) changed hands
routinely and was part of the Russian Empire
during the period of "Fiddler" (late 1800s).
The Hasidim from whom I'm descended came from a
town decidedly in Russia, and, like "Fiddler",
I'm not giving a history lesson of all of Hasidism
but trying to make a simple illustration about the
(Russian) Anatevkans.

> The people depicted in the musical are clearly NOT Hasidic.
> There's a rabbi, for Pete's sake!

So you're saying that if they were Hasidic there
wouldn't be a rabbi there?? Of course there
would; probably most of the men would be.

> Note that the benign/comic matchmaker ain't the way Sholom Aleichem
> would have written about matchmakers, who were villains tricking very
> young women into indenture.

In fact Sholem Aleichem routinely portrayed
matchmakers comically and Stein and Harnick
worked from that. What historical evidence
do you have of matchmakers as villains
entrapping underage women? Remember, they
didn't deal directly with the potential
brides but with their parents, and while
no doubt there were some husbands who may
have treated their wives improperly how do
you characterise marriage as indenture?

>> but not all Russian Jews were
>> Hasidim--nor were Bock and Harnick trying to do
>> an "authentic" documentary of either, although
>> Bock still tried to give the score some of the
>> general sound of what people tend to associate
>> with "Jewish" (East European) music.
>
> I liked the melodies. I never got the criticism that it wasn't adapted
> from genuine folk music; it sure sounded like it. In any event, Bock was
> the composer and he gets to write whatever he thinks works for the show.
> Whoever doesn't like it is free to write his own music.
>
>> I had the privilege of talking with Harnick for
>> a while after a seminar on Broadway orchestration
>> in 2009 (Bock was supposed to have been there as
>> well but was too ill to attend) and while "Fiddler"
>> seemed to be most on the mind of those who
>> presented questions to him during it I mostly
>> discussed with him "The Apple Tree", a production
>> of which I did in prep school 50 years ago and
>> which is still my favourite of theirs
>
> Hey, that's very cool.
>
>> . . .

David Samuel Barr <dsbarr@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On 6/25/2023 6:40 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>David Samuel Barr <dsbarr@mindspring.com> wrote:

>>>>. . .

>>>Movie adaptations of stage musicals routinely
>>>make a lot of alterations to the book and score,
>>>usually to negative effect ("West Side Story" is
>>>a classic example of this)

>>What are you talking about? The book for West Side Story is notoriously
>>awful. The language was willfully out of date, just slang Arthur
>>Laurents recalled from childhood, that he then twisted into
>>unrecognizeable language. It was not language from the era in which it
>>was set. Yes, we know why Laurents did it but it ended up sounding
>>incredbily stupid.

>>There were a number of changes to soften lyrics due to movie censorship
>>of the time.

>>But the biggest change of all was that Maria doesn't actually commit
>>suicide and the two sets of warring parents don't even exist in the show
>>to survive the tragedy and then to explain what we learned tonight to
>>the audience. That's between Laurents and Shakespeare.

>You're making a complete different argument,
>debating whether WSS was faithful to Romeo
>& Juliet (and all of R&J's antecedents).

Nor was Shakespeare faithful to Pyramus and Thisbe.

>Of course it wasn't, nor was it intended to
>be. I'm simply pointing out the changes that
>were made between the original WSS stage
>book and the 1961* movie script, some of
>which forced the changes (without Sondheim's
>approval) of some of the song lyrics (apart
>from those based on censoring some things
>which today wouldn't cause anyone to blink
>an eye).

You said "to negative effect" and this hsow is "a classic example".

Spielberg changed substantially more and came up with a massive amount
of nonsense about the original show's disrespect toward Puerto Ricans,
which was nonsense.

>As to Laurents's language, yes,
>the book was pretty awful, but it was
>written contemporaneously with the action
>(both in the mid-1950s).

I'm stating flat out that Laurents had no idea how "kids today" spoke
and created his own dialect.

>If you're arguing
>that he intentionally put 1920s-30s slang
>into the mouths of 1950s teens I don't see
>the evidence of that, just of incompetent
>writing, which was worsened in subsequent
>attempts to "update" the book for revivals
>(including the Laurents-directed effort to
>make it bilingual). In any event, I simply
>used WSS as just one example in making the
>point that many/most adaptations of
>stage musicals to movie do violence to
>the originals through alterations and cuts,

"Do violence"? Oh, c'mon, now you're really going over the top.

>as also occurred with "Fiddler".

I've seen it on stage several times, plus a high school production. The
road show at the Woodstock Opera House (built in the Gilbert and
Sullivan era!) had no Jews at all in the cast, I swear. That was weird.

Joseph Stein himself wrote the script, adapting his own book, so how
unfaithful was the movie?

It skips "Now I Have Everything" but that's heard as an instrumental
when Motel and Tzeitel are running through the woods. "Tevye'S Dream" is
shortened a lot, which is GOOD 'cuz I've never cared for it.

Wasn't the Constable character created for the movie?

There are more scenes with the animals in the movie. This makes sense as
it's not fun to do this on stage.

Whoa. I just read that Bea Arthur was in the Broadway cast as Yentl.
Molly Picon was an old actress from Yiddish theater, in the movie.

The huge difference was cinematography versus the colorful Broadway
staging, which was shown in that documentary a few years ago about the
origin of the show. Jewison went for gritty, and might as well have
filmed in black and white. The grit was right there in front of the
camera lens: a woman's dirty nylon!

The movie gave us Isaac Stern!

The cinematography and the "realistic" looking Anatevkah were the huge
changes from the stage. Everything else was minor.

>(* I
>haven't seen the 2021 WSS film; from what
>I've read about it it does far worse damage
>to the original so I have no wish to see it.)

>>> which is why it is often a mistake to present
>>> the movie to people being asked to evaluate
>>> a show. As correctly pointed out in the notes
>>> to this YouTube, "Fiddler" is not about Hasidim--
>>> Hasidim were Russian Jews,

>> Ukrainian! It spread throughout central and eastern Europe.

>While the Baal Shem Tov is believed to have been
>born in an outpost in what was then Poland and is
>now Ukraine, the fact is that most of that area
>(including Poland, Lithuania, etc) changed hands
>routinely and was part of the Russian Empire
>during the period of "Fiddler" (late 1800s).

Yes, yes, yes, that's absolutely true. Russia held this territory for
centuries and turned it into a shithole like everything else held by the
Tsar. (May G-d bless and keep the Tsar... very far away from us.) My
ancestors on both sides would have been from schetls just like that. My
mother's father fled from the Russian army at age 12, with his younger
brother, otherwise he'd have been impressed into the army.

>The Hasidim from whom I'm descended came from a
>town decidedly in Russia, and, like "Fiddler",
>I'm not giving a history lesson of all of Hasidism
>but trying to make a simple illustration about the
>(Russian) Anatevkans.

>>The people depicted in the musical are clearly NOT Hasidic.
>>There's a rabbi, for Pete's sake!

>So you're saying that if they were Hasidic there
>wouldn't be a rabbi there?? Of course there
>would; probably most of the men would be.

The rabbi we see in the production performs the traditional function of
making rulings on points of law, settling disputes. No one does that in
a Chasidic community, which would have had a leader of the entire
community and, no, Tevye would not have had the final word as to whom
his daughters would marry, not that he had any say in reality.

We see no basic Hasidic traditions depicted at all. This is not a
Hasiidic commuity of any kind.

>>Note that the benign/comic matchmaker ain't the way Sholom Aleichem
>>would have written about matchmakers, who were villains tricking very
>>young women into indenture.

>In fact Sholem Aleichem routinely portrayed
>matchmakers comically and Stein and Harnick
>worked from that. What historical evidence
>do you have of matchmakers as villains
>entrapping underage women? . . .

Who was underage? Just very young.

There is a Sholem Aleichem story of very young women being tricked into
taking a trip to Brazil to get married. I'm not finding the story
title.

In looking for it, I see that Chava's story was massively changed and
that her marriage has had disastrous consequences.