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interests / soc.culture.china / A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.

SubjectAuthor
* A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for tltlee1
`* Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome fOleg Smirnov
 +* Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is altlee1
 |`* Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome fOleg Smirnov
 | `* Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is altlee1
 |  `* Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome fOleg Smirnov
 |   `* Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is altlee1
 |    `- Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome fOleg Smirnov
 `* "the chief ideologist"Oleg Smirnov
  +* Re: "the chief ideologist"ltlee1
  |+- Re: "the chief ideologist"ltlee1
  |+* Re: "the chief ideologist"Oleg Smirnov
  ||`* Re: "the chief ideologist"ltlee1
  || `* Re: "the chief ideologist"Oleg Smirnov
  ||  `- Re: "the chief ideologist"Oleg Smirnov
  |`* Re: "the chief ideologist"Oleg Smirnov
  | `* Re: "the chief ideologist"ltlee1
  |  `* Re: "the chief ideologist"Oleg Smirnov
  |   `- Re: "the chief ideologist"ltlee1
  `* "the chief ideologist"Oleg Smirnov
   `- Re: "the chief ideologist"ltlee1

1
A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.

<23f4ab71-4db1-417e-bdd8-f2dfe776b694n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
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 by: ltlee1 - Tue, 11 May 2021 16:41 UTC

"A Russian-Chinese rapprochement is a bad outcome for the West. Avoiding this has been a pillar of American policy since Richard Nixon went to China half a century ago. Even worse is a Russian-Chinese alliance motivated by mutual paranoia towards the West, and one that reinforces the worst anti-Western tendencies in Russia.

It is easy to sniff at the much-reduced Russian Federation, but it graduates more engineers each year than the United States and has formidable capacities in science and military technology. A Eurasian combination would be all the harder for the West to counter.

The more the West tries to encircle China, the more China will hit the West where it isn’t, in General George S Patton Jr’s phrase. China just signed a $400 billion trade deal with Iran – an important turnabout, since China (at least officially) cut oil imports from Iran to nearly zero under the Trump administration’s sanctions. When Beijing was negotiating trade terms with Washington, it avoided provoking the United States over Iran.

During the last few months, Beijing’s unofficial oil imports from Iran have jumped. China is keeping its options open. Tempted to pressure Washington and its allies, it might (or might not) help Iran with its nuclear weapons program, as it helped Pakistan and North Korea in the past.

The distinguished sinologist Francesco Sisci said last week that China also quietly encouraged North Korea to resume testing ballistic missiles in March, after a four-year moratorium. That sent a message to the Biden Administration. China has the option to send a similar message via Iran.

China plays the world Go board. Iran is simply one piece in a much larger game. Under some circumstances China might use its influence to dissuade Iran’s clerical regime from developing nuclear weapons; under others, it might help Iran build nuclear weapons. Everything is subordinate to China’s efforts to break out of American encirclement.

It does not seem to have occurred to the Trump administration’s strategist that China might try to flank the United States that close to Central Asia.
....
The Trump administration, despite important symbolic support for Israel, gave China a reason to meddle in the Middle East.

To Trump’s credit, he understood that the United States could not disengage from the region without some working relationship with Russia. For this, he was excoriated as an alleged dupe of the Russian regime, and subjected to a three-year witch-hunt over supposed “collusion” with Russia.
The Biden administration appears to believe that it can provoke everyone without demonstrating strength. And that is the most dangerous possible mode of behavior for a major power."

https://asiatimes.com/2021/05/eurasian-anti-west-alliance-didnt-have-to-happen/

Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.

<s7elqc$2hf$1@os.motzarella.org>

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From: os3...@netc.eu (Oleg Smirnov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.
Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 22:25:44 +0300
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 by: Oleg Smirnov - Tue, 11 May 2021 19:25 UTC

ltlee1, <news:23f4ab71-4db1-417e-bdd8-f2dfe776b694n@googlegroups.com>

> "A Russian-Chinese rapprochement is a bad outcome for the West.

> https://asiatimes.com/2021/05/eurasian-anti-west-alliance-didnt-have-to-happen/

Full text <https://archive.is/UrOx7>

Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President Putin"
<https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so. He was bogusly
attributed so by the Atlanticist liberal mass media which sought
to better demonize the Kremlin through this attribution.

....

Dugin is a freaky showman-philosopher. Like those shock artists
who are seeking for popular attention through disturbing
imagery, sounds etc, Dugin seeks for attention through shocking
anti-liberal philosophy. Central theme and essential narrative
of his philosophical excercises is romantization and
"philosophization" of sadism and murder, and various other "dark
matter" of the sort.

When he was young, in the late Soviet time, he was a member of
an underground occult community where they urinated into each
other's mouth, while his father was a high-ranked KGB officer.
His first wife later switched to lesbianism, and in the 1990s
and early 2000s she was known as a pro-LGBT activist in Russia.
The last time Dugin had something to do with 'big' politicians
in Russia happened in the early 2000s, when he served as an
advisor to the chairman of Russia's parliament (Duma), when the
chairman belonged to the Communist Party of Russia.

Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.

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Subject: Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a
bad outcome for the U.S.
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
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 by: ltlee1 - Tue, 11 May 2021 21:03 UTC

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 3:27:10 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> ltlee1, <news:23f4ab71-4db1-417e...@googlegroups.com>
> > "A Russian-Chinese rapprochement is a bad outcome for the West.
> > https://asiatimes.com/2021/05/eurasian-anti-west-alliance-didnt-have-to-happen/
>
> Full text <https://archive.is/UrOx7>
>
> Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
> Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President Putin"
> <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so. He was bogusly
> attributed so by the Atlanticist liberal mass media which sought
> to better demonize the Kremlin through this attribution.

Sounds like you are proving Guancha.cn's statement concerning
Alexander Dugin (被称为普京总统智囊的亚历山大·杜金) is correct.

You can disagree with the attribution. But objectively speaking, as long as
one journalist/commentator (included Dugin) himself has called Dugin
member of Putin's think tank, the statement is objectively accurate. Has
the Putin government denied any linkage with Dugin?

I know zero about Dugin.
Pullman (Spengler) also considers Dugin crazy and his writing "lunatic screed".

"The Zionists did not recognize either the decision to create a Palestinian state or the
international status of Jerusalem. Constantly referring to their suffering at the hands
of the Nazis, Jews used this as an excuse to ignore either the Arab protests or the calls
of the UN and the international community. "

But I find the above mostly factual especially Dugin was talking about Zionists, not Israelis
in general. What do you think?
>
> ...
>
> Dugin is a freaky showman-philosopher. Like those shock artists
> who are seeking for popular attention through disturbing
> imagery, sounds etc, Dugin seeks for attention through shocking
> anti-liberal philosophy. Central theme and essential narrative
> of his philosophical excercises is romantization and
> "philosophization" of sadism and murder, and various other "dark
> matter" of the sort.
>
> When he was young, in the late Soviet time, he was a member of
> an underground occult community where they urinated into each
> other's mouth, while his father was a high-ranked KGB officer.
> His first wife later switched to lesbianism, and in the 1990s
> and early 2000s she was known as a pro-LGBT activist in Russia.
> The last time Dugin had something to do with 'big' politicians
> in Russia happened in the early 2000s, when he served as an
> advisor to the chairman of Russia's parliament (Duma), when the
> chairman belonged to the Communist Party of Russia.

Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.

<s7esej$33k$1@os.motzarella.org>

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From: os3...@netc.eu (Oleg Smirnov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.
Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 00:20:04 +0300
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 by: Oleg Smirnov - Tue, 11 May 2021 21:20 UTC

ltlee1, <news:b53fe1eb-0255-425c-9ee5-0ff2422c894cn@googlegroups.com>
> On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 3:27:10 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

>> Full text <https://archive.is/UrOx7>
>>
>> Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
>> Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President Putin"
>> <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so. He was bogusly
>> attributed so by the Atlanticist liberal mass media which sought
>> to better demonize the Kremlin through this attribution.
>
> Sounds like you are proving Guancha.cn's statement concerning
> Alexander Dugin (??????????????·??) is correct.
>
> You can disagree with the attribution. But objectively speaking,
> as long as one journalist/commentator (included Dugin) himself has
> called Dugin member of Putin's think tank, the statement is
> objectively accurate. Has the Putin government denied any linkage
> with Dugin?

I can claim myself a member of Putin's think tank,
and so it's true unless the Putin government denies
any linkage with me.

Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.

<f69053bf-0006-4b6e-abb5-09f15562bb06n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a
bad outcome for the U.S.
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
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 by: ltlee1 - Tue, 11 May 2021 22:38 UTC

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 5:20:22 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> ltlee1, <news:b53fe1eb-0255-425c...@googlegroups.com>
> > On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 3:27:10 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
> >> Full text <https://archive.is/UrOx7>
> >>
> >> Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
> >> Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President Putin"
> >> <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so. He was bogusly
> >> attributed so by the Atlanticist liberal mass media which sought
> >> to better demonize the Kremlin through this attribution.
> >
> > Sounds like you are proving Guancha.cn's statement concerning
> > Alexander Dugin (??????????????·??) is correct.
> >
> > You can disagree with the attribution. But objectively speaking,
> > as long as one journalist/commentator (included Dugin) himself has
> > called Dugin member of Putin's think tank, the statement is
> > objectively accurate. Has the Putin government denied any linkage
> > with Dugin?
> I can claim myself a member of Putin's think tank,
> and so it's true unless the Putin government denies
> any linkage with me.

I am talking about STATEMENT reporting, not FACT reporting. I have no idea about
the reality. However, if I am forced to decide one way or the other:

观察者网www.guancha.cn is a real website serving real people.
In contrast, I don't know you. I can't tell whether you or any poster is a real person or
just a clever bot, let alone your expertise.

This certainly does not MEAN Guancha.cn is always right and/or you must be wrong.
Nevertheless, I need more information to believe you and to dismiss guancha..cn.
As is, I will settle with Dugin has been REPORTED or CLAIMED to be a member of
Putin's think tank.

Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.

<s7f7ds$jiu$1@os.motzarella.org>

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From: os3...@netc.eu (Oleg Smirnov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.
Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 03:26:53 +0300
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 by: Oleg Smirnov - Wed, 12 May 2021 00:26 UTC

ltlee1, <news:f69053bf-0006-4b6e-abb5-09f15562bb06n@googlegroups.com>
> On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 5:20:22 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

>>>> Full text <https://archive.is/UrOx7>
>>>>
>>>> Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
>>>> Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President Putin"
>>>> <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so. He was bogusly
>>>> attributed so by the Atlanticist liberal mass media which sought
>>>> to better demonize the Kremlin through this attribution.
>>>
>>> Sounds like you are proving Guancha.cn's statement concerning
>>> Alexander Dugin (??????????????·??) is correct.
>>>
>>> You can disagree with the attribution. But objectively speaking,
>>> as long as one journalist/commentator (included Dugin) himself has
>>> called Dugin member of Putin's think tank, the statement is
>>> objectively accurate. Has the Putin government denied any linkage
>>> with Dugin?
>>
>> I can claim myself a member of Putin's think tank,
>> and so it's true unless the Putin government denies
>> any linkage with me.
>
> I am talking about STATEMENT reporting, not FACT reporting. I have no idea
> about the reality. However, if I am forced to decide one way or the other:
>
> ????www.guancha.cn is a real website serving real people.
> In contrast, I don't know you. I can't tell whether you or any poster is a
> real person or just a clever bot, let alone your expertise.
>
> This certainly does not MEAN Guancha.cn is always right and/or you must be
> wrong. Nevertheless, I need more information to believe you and to dismiss
> guancha.cn. As is, I will settle with Dugin has been REPORTED or CLAIMED to
> be a member of Putin's think tank.

The Guancha.cn folks are incompetent about the Russia internals,
so they have simply repeated what they had read in the Western
media about Dugin, since many of the Chinese thinkers used to take
Western sources with awe, so they take basic meanings from there
and then seek to attach their re-interpretations / re-evaluations.

Dugin is more (in)famous in the West, rather than within Russia.
He is useful as a caricature, so if he is declared to be the chief
strategist, then his ugliness may be projected to entire Russia.
That's why the Western media love very much to exaggerate him and
misrepresent his role and significance.

Dugin is not the only one of the sort, - rather, there's quite a
traditional Western approach to focus on suitable Russia's freaks
and over-exaggerate / misrepresent them far beyond proportion.

Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.

<71788c91-3112-465a-b9f5-7b7c7f95c23en@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a
bad outcome for the U.S.
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
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 by: ltlee1 - Wed, 12 May 2021 01:52 UTC

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 8:27:42 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> ltlee1, <news:f69053bf-0006-4b6e...@googlegroups.com>
> > On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 5:20:22 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
> >>>> Full text <https://archive.is/UrOx7>
> >>>>
> >>>> Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
> >>>> Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President Putin"
> >>>> <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so. He was bogusly
> >>>> attributed so by the Atlanticist liberal mass media which sought
> >>>> to better demonize the Kremlin through this attribution.
> >>>
> >>> Sounds like you are proving Guancha.cn's statement concerning
> >>> Alexander Dugin (??????????????·??) is correct.
> >>>
> >>> You can disagree with the attribution. But objectively speaking,
> >>> as long as one journalist/commentator (included Dugin) himself has
> >>> called Dugin member of Putin's think tank, the statement is
> >>> objectively accurate. Has the Putin government denied any linkage
> >>> with Dugin?
> >>
> >> I can claim myself a member of Putin's think tank,
> >> and so it's true unless the Putin government denies
> >> any linkage with me.
> >
> > I am talking about STATEMENT reporting, not FACT reporting. I have no idea
> > about the reality. However, if I am forced to decide one way or the other:
> >
> > ????www.guancha.cn is a real website serving real people.
> > In contrast, I don't know you. I can't tell whether you or any poster is a
> > real person or just a clever bot, let alone your expertise.
> >
> > This certainly does not MEAN Guancha.cn is always right and/or you must be
> > wrong. Nevertheless, I need more information to believe you and to dismiss
> > guancha.cn. As is, I will settle with Dugin has been REPORTED or CLAIMED to
> > be a member of Putin's think tank.
> The Guancha.cn folks are incompetent about the Russia internals,
> so they have simply repeated what they had read in the Western
> media about Dugin, since many of the Chinese thinkers used to take
> Western sources with awe, so they take basic meanings from there
> and then seek to attach their re-interpretations / re-evaluations.

Whatever. You are entitled to your opinion.
Do Chinese thinkers take Western source with awe indiscriminately?
It depends.
>
> Dugin is more (in)famous in the West, rather than within Russia.
> He is useful as a caricature, so if he is declared to be the chief
> strategist, then his ugliness may be projected to entire Russia.

> That's why the Western media love very much to exaggerate him and
> misrepresent his role and significance.

What's new? To be useful to the West often means being a caricature.
Sad but real. But then a caricature is not the real McCoy.

>
> Dugin is not the only one of the sort, - rather, there's quite a
> traditional Western approach to focus on suitable Russia's freaks
> and over-exaggerate / misrepresent them far beyond proportion.

1. Every country has its share of freaks. China with the largest population
has most freaks per normal distribution. If Dugin a freak?

2. Pullman (Spengler) also considers Dugin crazy and his writing "lunatic screed".
"The Zionists did not recognize either the decision to create a Palestinian state or the
international status of Jerusalem. Constantly referring to their suffering at the hands
of the Nazis, Jews used this as an excuse to ignore either the Arab protests or the calls
of the UN and the international community. "

But I find the above mostly factual especially Dugin was talking about Zionists, not Israelis
in general. What do you think?

Anyway, this will be my last post on Dugin. Feel free to respond.

Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.

<s7gl8o$8m5$1@os.motzarella.org>

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From: os3...@netc.eu (Oleg Smirnov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: A Russia-China rapprochement motivated by mutual paranoia is a bad outcome for the U.S.
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 by: Oleg Smirnov - Wed, 12 May 2021 13:28 UTC

ltlee1, <news:71788c91-3112-465a-b9f5-7b7c7f95c23en@googlegroups.com>
> On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 8:27:42 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

>>>>>> Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
>>>>>> Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President Putin"
>>>>>> <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so. He was bogusly
>>>>>> attributed so by the Atlanticist liberal mass media which sought
>>>>>> to better demonize the Kremlin through this attribution.

>> Dugin is more (in)famous in the West, rather than within Russia.
>> He is useful as a caricature, so if he is declared to be the chief
>> strategist, then his ugliness may be projected to entire Russia.
>> That's why the Western media love very much to exaggerate him and
>> misrepresent his role and significance.
>
> What's new? To be useful to the West often means being a caricature.
> Sad but real. But then a caricature is not the real McCoy.
>
>> Dugin is not the only one of the sort, - rather, there's quite a
>> traditional Western approach to focus on suitable Russia's freaks
>> and over-exaggerate / misrepresent them far beyond proportion.
>
> 1. Every country has its share of freaks. China with the largest
> population has most freaks per normal distribution. If Dugin a freak?
>
> 2. Pullman (Spengler) also considers Dugin crazy and his writing
> "lunatic screed". "The Zionists did not recognize either the decision
> to create a Palestinian state or the international status of Jerusalem.
> Constantly referring to their suffering at the hands of the Nazis,
> Jews used this as an excuse to ignore either the Arab protests or the
> calls of the UN and the international community. "
>
> But I find the above mostly factual especially Dugin was talking about
> Zionists, not Israelis in general. What do you think?

The passage about the Zionists is not a bright original idea of
Dugin. It's rather a common and popular narrative among those who
sympathize with the Palestinian movement(s). There are quite many
of such people in Russia, also given that the population includes
a noticeable part of the Muslims and secular people descended from
Mulsimdom, who tend to be in solidarity with the Palestinians on
the Islamic basis (a part of them also tends to be in solidarity
with the Muslims living in the China's Xinjiang region, given the
known issues there, by the way).

The Asiatimes' smart writer seeks to discredit this narrative by
attaching it to Dugin, as Dugin is an established freak with a due
negative image. But Dugin is not the originator of the narrative,
and it's not his central theme. He just inter alia employs it to
attract also the Palestine sympathisers' attention to himself.

Generally I think this Asiatimes' article distorts facts and goes
beyond sanity on a variety of points. And when it comes in
combination with Dugin, it results in double-twisted insanity and
confusion. Still my initial remark was not on this sexy article
but on the factually wrong claim made by Guancha.cn.

> Anyway, this will be my last post on Dugin. Feel free to respond.

"the chief ideologist"

<sb2c37$rpt$1@os.motzarella.org>

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From: os3...@netc.eu (Oleg Smirnov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.russian
Subject: "the chief ideologist"
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:28:36 +0300
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 by: Oleg Smirnov - Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:28 UTC

Oleg Smirnov, <news:s7elqc$2hf$1@os.motzarella.org>
> ltlee1, <news:23f4ab71-4db1-417e-bdd8-f2dfe776b694n@googlegroups.com>

>> "A Russian-Chinese rapprochement is a bad outcome for the West.
>
>> https://asiatimes.com/2021/05/eurasian-anti-west-alliance-didnt-have-to-happen/
>
> Full text <https://archive.is/UrOx7>
>
> Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
> Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President Putin"
> <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so.

<https://archive.is/lxh9L> ft.com

... Surkov is a founding father of Putinism, and one of its key
enablers. He is the architect of Russia's "sovereign democracy"
... Never elected, he was Putin's chief ideologist and by most
accounts his closest political confidant for more than a dozen
years ..

....

The British FT outlet has published an interview with Vladislav
Surkov, one more man whom the Western media also used to call
think tank of Putin. In contrast to Dugin, Surkov has much more
reason to be called "chief ideologist", because he really worked
very close to Putin and to other top figures in the governance.
While basically being an administrative functionary, he became
known for his passion for philosophical-like exercises and even
fiction novels and poems. Since he was at the top, his exercises
stimulated many menial-minded persons to glorify him as a great
intellectual and subtle writer and art critic, and the like. In
2008, Dugin was one of them (eg. <http://arcto.ru/article/1485>).

Then, here is what Dugin wrote about Surkov later, May 2013:

| I believe that Surkov was an absolute evil for Russia, this is
| my position. He laid in our ideology the idea of combining
| liberal values, Western, pro-American, oligarchic, associated
| with big capital, with cynicism, with a mockery of traditional
| values .. We lost exactly 13 years while this person was
| engaged .. All political, patriotic initiatives were simulacra,
| substitutes, forgeries .. <https://izborsk-club.ru/1236>

It was few days after Surkov had been fired from the government,
where he occupied a high position of vice PM and head of office,
so Dugin was figuratively dancing on his grave.

However, Putin soon re-appointed Surkov as his personal advisor.

Here's what Dugin wrote about Surkov in summer 2014:

| The ominous figure of Surkov is in the center of the conspiracy
| against Novorossiya, involving Ukrainian oligarchs, Atlanticist
| agents, liberals and corrupt siloviks .. Everything Surkov and
| his team of corrupt bastards did, turned out an empty shell,
| corrupt scheming or political sabotage <https://bit.ly/35FGzol>

At the time, Dugin was among the hardliners demanded tough action
against the post-coup Ukraine. He rationalized the Kremlin's
unwillingness to unleash such an action with the [alleged] Surkov's
sinister influence. Shortly after - but not exactly due to - such
rants Dugin was fired from the Moscow State University.

I point to these details to hint the Chinese, other 'outsiders' to
beware too simple ideas about "Putin's chief ideologists" and the
roles attributed to them in the West.

It is likely that Surkov gave ideas to Putin. But, it looks like
Putin gets ideas from various people, and Surkov is / was not the
only one in and near the Kremlin who has ideas, while other great
thinkers might be less eager to expose their great ideas to mass
public (cf. <https://bit.ly/3qjvt1V>). Among other top Kremlin
officials, Surkov, in this regard, was more 'narcissist', seeking
for popular attention and public acclaim.

Dugin was basically right in 2013, when he associated Surkov with
simulacra. Surkov himself spoke pretty openly for virtue of
simulacra. One can feel this accent also in the above FT article.

In his recent 'program' article <https://bit.ly/2SE6zxL> (English
<https://bit.ly/3gOMUo7>), Surkov had written that the democratic
institutions in Russia are ritualistic rather then real. It's like
a formal dress for going out ["to the civilized world"?], to make
them believe we are similar, but in real life we wear other dress.
Nonetheless, this is, actually, good, and more 'honest', and many
other nations start increasingly learning and borrowing our model.

The article caused mostly negative reactions, it didn't generate
much enthusiasm even among the loyalists, and after some popular
discussion, the term Deep People, invented by Surkov, has become
a meme to designate the ordinary people of Russia in ironical-
derogatory connotation.

In Surkov's view, neither "civil society", nor political parties,
nor businesses etc should govern Russia, but The Leader and the
Siloviks - secret services, police, army - must have the last
word, since the noble caste of warriors is nobler than the caste
of merchants (and the merchant caste never ruled Russia before).

All this is ambivalent to the Surkov's own conduct of backstage
manipulations, which is far from what the Siloviks like, because
they naturally like to do things in straighter and simpler way.
Some commentators interpreted the Surkov's narratives as a kind
of trolling. In turn, some of the Russia's Siloviks once made it
clear to Surkov <https://bit.ly/3zR3ACM> that they do not really
like him very much.

The Surkov-inspired "patriotic youth" <https://bit.ly/3gY6RaW>
simulacra sought to combine the Soviet-style patriotic activism
with modernity and commercialization. In 2013, the Kremlin had
stripped them of strong patronage, and this 'movement' faded
away leaving in its legacy a few minor projects. For example,
one offshoot grown from this nest turned into a commercially
viable blogging based on civic activism <https://bit.ly/2TWhdjm>.

Bonus link <https://bit.ly/3xCotja>

By the way, Dugin has organized his own patriotic youth movement
as well <https://bit.ly/2TTksbs>. They made noises in the 2000s
and the early 2010s <https://youtu.be/os2Aq1dcCHU>. Look at their
website <http://rossia3.ru/> and at their 'traditionalist' quasi-
pagan aesthetics <https://youtu.be/1C9Oz7Qb1Bw?t=111>.

Dugin and Surkov differ so that Dugin wants true totalitarian
style patriotism in traditionalist style, and for real, without
simulacra, while Surkov is such a 'cynical' and well-tempered
"enlightened bureaucrat" who believes the plebs should be allowed
to play with some toys under a clutch parental control.

What both Dugin and Surkov have in common is their attitude to -
directly or indirectly - consider the society a caste-like system,
where political ruling class and ordinary people are distinctly
not the same entities. In essence they both advocate for monarchy,
but they don't dare to speak it out too explicitly. It may be so
because the Lenin's body still remains in the Mausoleum, and some
noticeable part of people feel nostalgic for the Soviet ideals.

The reactionary dream about monarchy is a natural reaction to the
failure of the Soviet project (and then pursuit to 'democracy' has
not led to desirable result, in the 1990s). I still think this
dream is doomed to fail. The image of monarchy may look attractive
from the populist perspective, - we need a tough decisive leader
who might suppress all these useless shrill freaks and hateful
trolls that feel so comfortable under "democratic permissiveness".
However, a functional and non-symbolic monarchy would also need a
return to an institutionalized class inequality, hereditary status
system etc, what the Russian majority would hardly like and accept,
- even those of them who would like Tough Guy in power. Some more
time and, maybe, some painful practice is necessary to make people
realize they want mutually incompatible things at once.

Monarchical inheritance is also a big issue. The North Korean
solution would hardly be acceptable for the Russians. But if every
next Tsar is somehow 'elected' then one might think about where in
this case legitimacy comes from, and how it differs from 'normal'
democracy.

Generally it is good when a system runs smoothly and updates itself
smoothly. One of the basic flaws of the post-tsarist Soviet and
then Russian system is that it could not update itself smoothly.
If every change of leadership happens as a big shock and sea change,
accompanied by non-nice infightings etc, then, - from the national
perspective, - the functional-operational advantages of quasi-Tsar,
if any, are counter-weighted with the harmful transitional shocks.

The reactionary as well as progressive philosophers love to play
with fetishized concepts, but here is more simple non-philosophical
technical issue: the necessity for non-destructive timely updates.

There are serious reasons for the fact that Russia can neither join
the West nor "truly" implement the Western-style political system.
It remains in transitional mode searching for what would better fit
its specificity. When and where it 'finally' would lead to, - it's
difficult to say. The quasi-monarchy dream should be seen as "back
to the mother's uterus" aspiration, - it's non-realistic and self-
contradictory due to the reasons noted above. The Westen enmity to
Russia boosts nationalist sentiment among the patriots, and the
West is itself in crisis today, and all this encourages the Russian
reactionary thinkers, but it still does not make their ideas more
realistic and consistent. There may be also other trends of thought
in Russia, but the Western media would not promote them, because
they need to retain "good thought" primacy for themselves, while
Russia must be kept in an association with Dark Reaction. Promotion
of "chief ideologists" like Surkov and Dugin serves this goal.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: "the chief ideologist"

<b84f017f-83fd-4824-8316-232eb519fa24n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: "the chief ideologist"
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
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 by: ltlee1 - Fri, 25 Jun 2021 11:00 UTC

On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 12:32:44 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Oleg Smirnov, <news:s7elqc$2hf$1...@os.motzarella.org>
> > ltlee1, <news:23f4ab71-4db1-417e...@googlegroups.com>
>
> >> "A Russian-Chinese rapprochement is a bad outcome for the West.
> >
> >> https://asiatimes.com/2021/05/eurasian-anti-west-alliance-didnt-have-to-happen/
> >
> > Full text <https://archive.is/UrOx7>
> >
> > Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
> > Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President Putin"
> > <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so.
> <https://archive.is/lxh9L> ft.com
>
> .. Surkov is a founding father of Putinism, and one of its key
> enablers. He is the architect of Russia's "sovereign democracy"
> .. Never elected, he was Putin's chief ideologist and by most
> accounts his closest political confidant for more than a dozen
> years ..
>
> ...
>
> The British FT outlet has published an interview with Vladislav
> Surkov, one more man whom the Western media also used to call
> think tank of Putin. In contrast to Dugin, Surkov has much more
> reason to be called "chief ideologist", because he really worked
> very close to Putin and to other top figures in the governance.
> While basically being an administrative functionary, he became
> known for his passion for philosophical-like exercises and even
> fiction novels and poems. Since he was at the top, his exercises
> stimulated many menial-minded persons to glorify him as a great
> intellectual and subtle writer and art critic, and the like. In
> 2008, Dugin was one of them (eg. <http://arcto.ru/article/1485>).
>
> Then, here is what Dugin wrote about Surkov later, May 2013:
>
> | I believe that Surkov was an absolute evil for Russia, this is
> | my position. He laid in our ideology the idea of combining
> | liberal values, Western, pro-American, oligarchic, associated
> | with big capital, with cynicism, with a mockery of traditional
> | values .. We lost exactly 13 years while this person was
> | engaged .. All political, patriotic initiatives were simulacra,
> | substitutes, forgeries .. <https://izborsk-club.ru/1236>
>
> It was few days after Surkov had been fired from the government,
> where he occupied a high position of vice PM and head of office,
> so Dugin was figuratively dancing on his grave.
>
> However, Putin soon re-appointed Surkov as his personal advisor.
>
> Here's what Dugin wrote about Surkov in summer 2014:
>
> | The ominous figure of Surkov is in the center of the conspiracy
> | against Novorossiya, involving Ukrainian oligarchs, Atlanticist
> | agents, liberals and corrupt siloviks .. Everything Surkov and
> | his team of corrupt bastards did, turned out an empty shell,
> | corrupt scheming or political sabotage <https://bit.ly/35FGzol>
>
> At the time, Dugin was among the hardliners demanded tough action
> against the post-coup Ukraine. He rationalized the Kremlin's
> unwillingness to unleash such an action with the [alleged] Surkov's
> sinister influence. Shortly after - but not exactly due to - such
> rants Dugin was fired from the Moscow State University.
>
> I point to these details to hint the Chinese, other 'outsiders' to
> beware too simple ideas about "Putin's chief ideologists" and the
> roles attributed to them in the West.
>
> It is likely that Surkov gave ideas to Putin. But, it looks like
> Putin gets ideas from various people, and Surkov is / was not the
> only one in and near the Kremlin who has ideas, while other great
> thinkers might be less eager to expose their great ideas to mass
> public (cf. <https://bit.ly/3qjvt1V>). Among other top Kremlin
> officials, Surkov, in this regard, was more 'narcissist', seeking
> for popular attention and public acclaim.
>
> Dugin was basically right in 2013, when he associated Surkov with
> simulacra. Surkov himself spoke pretty openly for virtue of
> simulacra. One can feel this accent also in the above FT article.
>
> In his recent 'program' article <https://bit.ly/2SE6zxL> (English
> <https://bit.ly/3gOMUo7>), Surkov had written that the democratic
> institutions in Russia are ritualistic rather then real. It's like
> a formal dress for going out ["to the civilized world"?], to make
> them believe we are similar, but in real life we wear other dress.
> Nonetheless, this is, actually, good, and more 'honest', and many
> other nations start increasingly learning and borrowing our model.
>
> The article caused mostly negative reactions, it didn't generate
> much enthusiasm even among the loyalists, and after some popular
> discussion, the term Deep People, invented by Surkov, has become
> a meme to designate the ordinary people of Russia in ironical-
> derogatory connotation.
>
> In Surkov's view, neither "civil society", nor political parties,
> nor businesses etc should govern Russia, but The Leader and the
> Siloviks - secret services, police, army - must have the last
> word, since the noble caste of warriors is nobler than the caste
> of merchants (and the merchant caste never ruled Russia before).
>
> All this is ambivalent to the Surkov's own conduct of backstage
> manipulations, which is far from what the Siloviks like, because
> they naturally like to do things in straighter and simpler way.
> Some commentators interpreted the Surkov's narratives as a kind
> of trolling. In turn, some of the Russia's Siloviks once made it
> clear to Surkov <https://bit.ly/3zR3ACM> that they do not really
> like him very much.
>
> The Surkov-inspired "patriotic youth" <https://bit.ly/3gY6RaW>
> simulacra sought to combine the Soviet-style patriotic activism
> with modernity and commercialization. In 2013, the Kremlin had
> stripped them of strong patronage, and this 'movement' faded
> away leaving in its legacy a few minor projects. For example,
> one offshoot grown from this nest turned into a commercially
> viable blogging based on civic activism <https://bit.ly/2TWhdjm>.
>
> Bonus link <https://bit.ly/3xCotja>
>
> By the way, Dugin has organized his own patriotic youth movement
> as well <https://bit.ly/2TTksbs>. They made noises in the 2000s
> and the early 2010s <https://youtu.be/os2Aq1dcCHU>. Look at their
> website <http://rossia3.ru/> and at their 'traditionalist' quasi-
> pagan aesthetics <https://youtu.be/1C9Oz7Qb1Bw?t=111>.
>
> Dugin and Surkov differ so that Dugin wants true totalitarian
> style patriotism in traditionalist style, and for real, without
> simulacra, while Surkov is such a 'cynical' and well-tempered
> "enlightened bureaucrat" who believes the plebs should be allowed
> to play with some toys under a clutch parental control.
>
> What both Dugin and Surkov have in common is their attitude to -
> directly or indirectly - consider the society a caste-like system,
> where political ruling class and ordinary people are distinctly
> not the same entities. In essence they both advocate for monarchy,
> but they don't dare to speak it out too explicitly. It may be so
> because the Lenin's body still remains in the Mausoleum, and some
> noticeable part of people feel nostalgic for the Soviet ideals.
>
> The reactionary dream about monarchy is a natural reaction to the
> failure of the Soviet project (and then pursuit to 'democracy' has
> not led to desirable result, in the 1990s). I still think this
> dream is doomed to fail. The image of monarchy may look attractive
> from the populist perspective, - we need a tough decisive leader
> who might suppress all these useless shrill freaks and hateful
> trolls that feel so comfortable under "democratic permissiveness".
> However, a functional and non-symbolic monarchy would also need a
> return to an institutionalized class inequality, hereditary status
> system etc, what the Russian majority would hardly like and accept,
> - even those of them who would like Tough Guy in power. Some more
> time and, maybe, some painful practice is necessary to make people
> realize they want mutually incompatible things at once.
>
> Monarchical inheritance is also a big issue. The North Korean
> solution would hardly be acceptable for the Russians. But if every
> next Tsar is somehow 'elected' then one might think about where in
> this case legitimacy comes from, and how it differs from 'normal'
> democracy.
>
> Generally it is good when a system runs smoothly and updates itself
> smoothly. One of the basic flaws of the post-tsarist Soviet and
> then Russian system is that it could not update itself smoothly.
> If every change of leadership happens as a big shock and sea change,
> accompanied by non-nice infightings etc, then, - from the national
> perspective, - the functional-operational advantages of quasi-Tsar,
> if any, are counter-weighted with the harmful transitional shocks.
>
> The reactionary as well as progressive philosophers love to play
> with fetishized concepts, but here is more simple non-philosophical
> technical issue: the necessity for non-destructive timely updates.
>
> There are serious reasons for the fact that Russia can neither join
> the West nor "truly" implement the Western-style political system.
> It remains in transitional mode searching for what would better fit
> its specificity. When and where it 'finally' would lead to, - it's
> difficult to say. The quasi-monarchy dream should be seen as "back
> to the mother's uterus" aspiration, - it's non-realistic and self-
> contradictory due to the reasons noted above. The Westen enmity to
> Russia boosts nationalist sentiment among the patriots, and the
> West is itself in crisis today, and all this encourages the Russian
> reactionary thinkers, but it still does not make their ideas more
> realistic and consistent. There may be also other trends of thought
> in Russia, but the Western media would not promote them, because
> they need to retain "good thought" primacy for themselves, while
> Russia must be kept in an association with Dark Reaction. Promotion
> of "chief ideologists" like Surkov and Dugin serves this goal.
>
> With regard to China, all this Russian stuff is not projected to
> the China situation, as the Chinese face their own, China-specific,
> issues, but there may be some intersection.


Click here to read the complete article
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Subject: Re: "the chief ideologist"
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
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 by: ltlee1 - Fri, 25 Jun 2021 11:02 UTC

On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 7:00:13 AM UTC-4, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 12:32:44 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> > Oleg Smirnov, <news:s7elqc$2hf$1...@os.motzarella.org>
> > > ltlee1, <news:23f4ab71-4db1-417e...@googlegroups.com>
> >
> > >> "A Russian-Chinese rapprochement is a bad outcome for the West.
> > >
> > >> https://asiatimes.com/2021/05/eurasian-anti-west-alliance-didnt-have-to-happen/
> > >
> > > Full text <https://archive.is/UrOx7>
> > >
> > > Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
> > > Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President Putin"
> > > <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so.
> > <https://archive.is/lxh9L> ft.com
> >
> > .. Surkov is a founding father of Putinism, and one of its key
> > enablers. He is the architect of Russia's "sovereign democracy"
> > .. Never elected, he was Putin's chief ideologist and by most
> > accounts his closest political confidant for more than a dozen
> > years ..
> >
> > ...
> >
> > The British FT outlet has published an interview with Vladislav
> > Surkov, one more man whom the Western media also used to call
> > think tank of Putin. In contrast to Dugin, Surkov has much more
> > reason to be called "chief ideologist", because he really worked
> > very close to Putin and to other top figures in the governance.
> > While basically being an administrative functionary, he became
> > known for his passion for philosophical-like exercises and even
> > fiction novels and poems. Since he was at the top, his exercises
> > stimulated many menial-minded persons to glorify him as a great
> > intellectual and subtle writer and art critic, and the like. In
> > 2008, Dugin was one of them (eg. <http://arcto.ru/article/1485>).
> >
> > Then, here is what Dugin wrote about Surkov later, May 2013:
> >
> > | I believe that Surkov was an absolute evil for Russia, this is
> > | my position. He laid in our ideology the idea of combining
> > | liberal values, Western, pro-American, oligarchic, associated
> > | with big capital, with cynicism, with a mockery of traditional
> > | values .. We lost exactly 13 years while this person was
> > | engaged .. All political, patriotic initiatives were simulacra,
> > | substitutes, forgeries .. <https://izborsk-club.ru/1236>
> >
> > It was few days after Surkov had been fired from the government,
> > where he occupied a high position of vice PM and head of office,
> > so Dugin was figuratively dancing on his grave.
> >
> > However, Putin soon re-appointed Surkov as his personal advisor.
> >
> > Here's what Dugin wrote about Surkov in summer 2014:
> >
> > | The ominous figure of Surkov is in the center of the conspiracy
> > | against Novorossiya, involving Ukrainian oligarchs, Atlanticist
> > | agents, liberals and corrupt siloviks .. Everything Surkov and
> > | his team of corrupt bastards did, turned out an empty shell,
> > | corrupt scheming or political sabotage <https://bit.ly/35FGzol>
> >
> > At the time, Dugin was among the hardliners demanded tough action
> > against the post-coup Ukraine. He rationalized the Kremlin's
> > unwillingness to unleash such an action with the [alleged] Surkov's
> > sinister influence. Shortly after - but not exactly due to - such
> > rants Dugin was fired from the Moscow State University.
> >
> > I point to these details to hint the Chinese, other 'outsiders' to
> > beware too simple ideas about "Putin's chief ideologists" and the
> > roles attributed to them in the West.
> >
> > It is likely that Surkov gave ideas to Putin. But, it looks like
> > Putin gets ideas from various people, and Surkov is / was not the
> > only one in and near the Kremlin who has ideas, while other great
> > thinkers might be less eager to expose their great ideas to mass
> > public (cf. <https://bit.ly/3qjvt1V>). Among other top Kremlin
> > officials, Surkov, in this regard, was more 'narcissist', seeking
> > for popular attention and public acclaim.
> >
> > Dugin was basically right in 2013, when he associated Surkov with
> > simulacra. Surkov himself spoke pretty openly for virtue of
> > simulacra. One can feel this accent also in the above FT article.
> >
> > In his recent 'program' article <https://bit.ly/2SE6zxL> (English
> > <https://bit.ly/3gOMUo7>), Surkov had written that the democratic
> > institutions in Russia are ritualistic rather then real. It's like
> > a formal dress for going out ["to the civilized world"?], to make
> > them believe we are similar, but in real life we wear other dress.
> > Nonetheless, this is, actually, good, and more 'honest', and many
> > other nations start increasingly learning and borrowing our model.
> >
> > The article caused mostly negative reactions, it didn't generate
> > much enthusiasm even among the loyalists, and after some popular
> > discussion, the term Deep People, invented by Surkov, has become
> > a meme to designate the ordinary people of Russia in ironical-
> > derogatory connotation.
> >
> > In Surkov's view, neither "civil society", nor political parties,
> > nor businesses etc should govern Russia, but The Leader and the
> > Siloviks - secret services, police, army - must have the last
> > word, since the noble caste of warriors is nobler than the caste
> > of merchants (and the merchant caste never ruled Russia before).
> >
> > All this is ambivalent to the Surkov's own conduct of backstage
> > manipulations, which is far from what the Siloviks like, because
> > they naturally like to do things in straighter and simpler way.
> > Some commentators interpreted the Surkov's narratives as a kind
> > of trolling. In turn, some of the Russia's Siloviks once made it
> > clear to Surkov <https://bit.ly/3zR3ACM> that they do not really
> > like him very much.
> >
> > The Surkov-inspired "patriotic youth" <https://bit.ly/3gY6RaW>
> > simulacra sought to combine the Soviet-style patriotic activism
> > with modernity and commercialization. In 2013, the Kremlin had
> > stripped them of strong patronage, and this 'movement' faded
> > away leaving in its legacy a few minor projects. For example,
> > one offshoot grown from this nest turned into a commercially
> > viable blogging based on civic activism <https://bit.ly/2TWhdjm>.
> >
> > Bonus link <https://bit.ly/3xCotja>
> >
> > By the way, Dugin has organized his own patriotic youth movement
> > as well <https://bit.ly/2TTksbs>. They made noises in the 2000s
> > and the early 2010s <https://youtu.be/os2Aq1dcCHU>. Look at their
> > website <http://rossia3.ru/> and at their 'traditionalist' quasi-
> > pagan aesthetics <https://youtu.be/1C9Oz7Qb1Bw?t=111>.
> >
> > Dugin and Surkov differ so that Dugin wants true totalitarian
> > style patriotism in traditionalist style, and for real, without
> > simulacra, while Surkov is such a 'cynical' and well-tempered
> > "enlightened bureaucrat" who believes the plebs should be allowed
> > to play with some toys under a clutch parental control.
> >
> > What both Dugin and Surkov have in common is their attitude to -
> > directly or indirectly - consider the society a caste-like system,
> > where political ruling class and ordinary people are distinctly
> > not the same entities. In essence they both advocate for monarchy,
> > but they don't dare to speak it out too explicitly. It may be so
> > because the Lenin's body still remains in the Mausoleum, and some
> > noticeable part of people feel nostalgic for the Soviet ideals.
> >
> > The reactionary dream about monarchy is a natural reaction to the
> > failure of the Soviet project (and then pursuit to 'democracy' has
> > not led to desirable result, in the 1990s). I still think this
> > dream is doomed to fail. The image of monarchy may look attractive
> > from the populist perspective, - we need a tough decisive leader
> > who might suppress all these useless shrill freaks and hateful
> > trolls that feel so comfortable under "democratic permissiveness".
> > However, a functional and non-symbolic monarchy would also need a
> > return to an institutionalized class inequality, hereditary status
> > system etc, what the Russian majority would hardly like and accept,
> > - even those of them who would like Tough Guy in power. Some more
> > time and, maybe, some painful practice is necessary to make people
> > realize they want mutually incompatible things at once.
> >
> > Monarchical inheritance is also a big issue. The North Korean
> > solution would hardly be acceptable for the Russians. But if every
> > next Tsar is somehow 'elected' then one might think about where in
> > this case legitimacy comes from, and how it differs from 'normal'
> > democracy.
> >
> > Generally it is good when a system runs smoothly and updates itself
> > smoothly. One of the basic flaws of the post-tsarist Soviet and
> > then Russian system is that it could not update itself smoothly.
> > If every change of leadership happens as a big shock and sea change,
> > accompanied by non-nice infightings etc, then, - from the national
> > perspective, - the functional-operational advantages of quasi-Tsar,
> > if any, are counter-weighted with the harmful transitional shocks.
> >
> > The reactionary as well as progressive philosophers love to play
> > with fetishized concepts, but here is more simple non-philosophical
> > technical issue: the necessity for non-destructive timely updates.
> >
> > There are serious reasons for the fact that Russia can neither join
> > the West nor "truly" implement the Western-style political system.
> > It remains in transitional mode searching for what would better fit
> > its specificity. When and where it 'finally' would lead to, - it's
> > difficult to say. The quasi-monarchy dream should be seen as "back
> > to the mother's uterus" aspiration, - it's non-realistic and self-
> > contradictory due to the reasons noted above. The Westen enmity to
> > Russia boosts nationalist sentiment among the patriots, and the
> > West is itself in crisis today, and all this encourages the Russian
> > reactionary thinkers, but it still does not make their ideas more
> > realistic and consistent. There may be also other trends of thought
> > in Russia, but the Western media would not promote them, because
> > they need to retain "good thought" primacy for themselves, while
> > Russia must be kept in an association with Dark Reaction. Promotion
> > of "chief ideologists" like Surkov and Dugin serves this goal.
> >
> > With regard to China, all this Russian stuff is not projected to
> > the China situation, as the Chinese face their own, China-specific,
> > issues, but there may be some intersection.
> Thank you for your long response.
>
> Frankly, I don't understand Dugin's article per 观察者网. So I would not
> necessarily object you calling him a freaky showman-philosopher. At
> the same time, my lack of understanding could be my personal problem.
> I don't understand a lot of things.
>
> As a matter of fact, I am now responding to you because I was reading
> Chapter 11 of Eurotragedy minutes ago. The author has the following vision of a new
> European Union:
>
> "They dismantle the economically counterproductive and politically corrosive system of administratively supervised fiscal rules and instead rely increasingly on financial markets to enforce fiscal discipline. Nation-states reclaim more of their sovereignty, and the apparent “fragmentation” of Europe becomes a source of creative energy. National leaders turn their attention to the critical task at home of rebuilding a technological base rooted in educational systems that provide an impetus to long-term growth and to reducing social inequalities. As each nation makes its (p.438) best effort, a vibrant competitive decentralization plays itself out. This is my pro-European vision. "
>
> I don't understand what make the author so sure laissez-faire would make Europe more united.
> Absence of internal effort, would it not make external force more effective?
> So I stop reading and do something else.
>
> I also appreciate your pointing to the Chinese, and other 'outsiders' to
> "beware too simple ideas about "Putin's chief ideologists" and the
> roles attributed to them in the West."
> But then may be one should also trust the Chinese people. If Dugin
> could not write something substantial and meaningful, 观察者网, readers would not
> continue to publish his article.


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 by: Oleg Smirnov - Fri, 25 Jun 2021 12:00 UTC

ltlee1, <news:b84f017f-83fd-4824-8316-232eb519fa24n@googlegroups.com>
> On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 12:32:44 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

>> With regard to China, all this Russian stuff is not projected to
>> the China situation, as the Chinese face their own, China-specific,
>> issues, but there may be some intersection.
>
> Thank you for your long response.
>
> Frankly, I don't understand Dugin's article per 观察者网. So I would
> not necessarily object you calling him a freaky showman-philosopher.
> At the same time, my lack of understanding could be my personal
> problem. I don't understand a lot of things.
>
> As a matter of fact, I am now responding to you because I was reading
> Chapter 11 of Eurotragedy minutes ago. The author has the following
> vision of a new European Union:
>
> "They dismantle the economically counterproductive and politically
> corrosive system of administratively supervised fiscal rules and
> instead rely increasingly on financial markets to enforce fiscal
> discipline. Nation-states reclaim more of their sovereignty, and the
> apparent “fragmentation” of Europe becomes a source of creative energy.
> National leaders turn their attention to the critical task at home of
> rebuilding a technological base rooted in educational systems that
> provide an impetus to long-term growth and to reducing social
> inequalities. As each nation makes its (p.438) best effort, a vibrant
> competitive decentralization plays itself out. This is my pro-European
> vision. "
>
> I don't understand what make the author so sure laissez-faire would
> make Europe more united. Absence of internal effort, would it not
> make external force more effective? So I stop reading and do something
> else.
>
> I also appreciate your pointing to the Chinese, and other 'outsiders'
> to "beware too simple ideas about "Putin's chief ideologists" and the
> roles attributed to them in the West."
>
> But then may be one should also trust the Chinese people. If Dugin
> could not write something substantial and meaningful, 观察者网,
> readers would not continue to publish his article.

The fact Dugin isn't Putin's chief ideologist doesn't logically
mean he cannot write something substantial and meaningful.
Many people can do so. In the post-Soviet culture there's such a
"Children of Lieutenant Schmidt" meme <https://bit.ly/3gUFjnI>,
which is remotely akin to the "Putin's chief ideologists" theme.

Re: "the chief ideologist"

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Subject: Re: "the chief ideologist"
From: ltl...@hotmail.com (ltlee1)
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 by: ltlee1 - Fri, 25 Jun 2021 12:26 UTC

On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 8:04:49 AM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> ltlee1, <news:b84f017f-83fd-4824...@googlegroups.com>
> > On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 12:32:44 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
> >> With regard to China, all this Russian stuff is not projected to
> >> the China situation, as the Chinese face their own, China-specific,
> >> issues, but there may be some intersection.
> >
> > Thank you for your long response.
> >
> > Frankly, I don't understand Dugin's article per 观察者网. So I would
> > not necessarily object you calling him a freaky showman-philosopher.
> > At the same time, my lack of understanding could be my personal
> > problem. I don't understand a lot of things.
> >
> > As a matter of fact, I am now responding to you because I was reading
> > Chapter 11 of Eurotragedy minutes ago. The author has the following
> > vision of a new European Union:
> >
> > "They dismantle the economically counterproductive and politically
> > corrosive system of administratively supervised fiscal rules and
> > instead rely increasingly on financial markets to enforce fiscal
> > discipline. Nation-states reclaim more of their sovereignty, and the
> > apparent “fragmentation” of Europe becomes a source of creative energy.
> > National leaders turn their attention to the critical task at home of
> > rebuilding a technological base rooted in educational systems that
> > provide an impetus to long-term growth and to reducing social
> > inequalities. As each nation makes its (p.438) best effort, a vibrant
> > competitive decentralization plays itself out. This is my pro-European
> > vision. "
> >
> > I don't understand what make the author so sure laissez-faire would
> > make Europe more united. Absence of internal effort, would it not
> > make external force more effective? So I stop reading and do something
> > else.
> >
> > I also appreciate your pointing to the Chinese, and other 'outsiders'
> > to "beware too simple ideas about "Putin's chief ideologists" and the
> > roles attributed to them in the West."
> >
> > But then may be one should also trust the Chinese people. If Dugin
> > could not write something substantial and meaningful, 观察者网,
> > readers would not continue to publish his article.
> The fact Dugin isn't Putin's chief ideologist doesn't logically
> mean he cannot write something substantial and meaningful.
> Many people can do so. In the post-Soviet culture there's such a
> "Children of Lieutenant Schmidt" meme <https://bit.ly/3gUFjnI>,
> which is remotely akin to the "Putin's chief ideologists" theme.

What fact?
Currently, Dugin is described as
俄罗斯政治学者,普京的哲学家
He is not described as Putin's chief ideologist.

Anyone can claim to be Putin's philosopher by dedicating his work to
Putin. I won't waste time on this.

Re: "the chief ideologist"

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From: os3...@netc.eu (Oleg Smirnov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: "the chief ideologist"
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 18:46:37 +0300
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 by: Oleg Smirnov - Fri, 25 Jun 2021 15:46 UTC

ltlee1, <news:70a7036d-fa2d-4424-a809-05995756dd57n@googlegroups.com>
> On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 8:04:49 AM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

> Currently, Dugin is described as
> 俄罗斯政治学者,普京的哲学家
> He is not described as Putin's chief ideologist.

In the 导读 section <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>, two independent
machine translations present it as follows:
"known as the think tank of President Putin .."
"known as President Putin's think tank .."
That's how it is described.

The ignorant (or deliberately deceitful) editors of Guancha.cn
certainly mislead the Chinese readers with this "Putin's think
tank" description.

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From: os3...@netc.eu (Oleg Smirnov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: "the chief ideologist"
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 20:27:11 +0300
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 by: Oleg Smirnov - Fri, 25 Jun 2021 17:27 UTC

ltlee1, <news:b84f017f-83fd-4824-8316-232eb519fa24n@googlegroups.com>
> On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 12:32:44 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

> But then may be one should also trust the Chinese people. If Dugin
> could not write something substantial and meaningful, 观察者网, readers
> would not continue to publish his article.

~ 20 years ago, Dugin, such a great strategist, promoted (within
a narrow circle of his fans) ambitious plans for how Russia in
alliance with India and Iran would certainly expand and reformat
Eurasian Space through taking Tibet and Xinjang away from China :)
Are the Chinese people interested? I can give a link.

Re: "the chief ideologist"

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Subject: Re: "the chief ideologist"
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 by: ltlee1 - Fri, 25 Jun 2021 17:50 UTC

On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 1:28:50 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> ltlee1, <news:b84f017f-83fd-4824...@googlegroups.com>
> > On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 12:32:44 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
> > But then may be one should also trust the Chinese people. If Dugin
> > could not write something substantial and meaningful, 观察者网, readers
> > would not continue to publish his article.
> ~ 20 years ago, Dugin, such a great strategist, promoted (within
> a narrow circle of his fans) ambitious plans for how Russia in
> alliance with India and Iran would certainly expand and reformat
> Eurasian Space through taking Tibet and Xinjang away from China :)
> Are the Chinese people interested? I can give a link.

The link is readily available from the net. I had came across it earlier.
Anyway, this kind of people are not uncommon during an era of great competition
(大争之世).

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 by: Oleg Smirnov - Fri, 25 Jun 2021 17:53 UTC

ltlee1, <news:6e55eafc-9ca3-47ba-aa5d-14251cdfc963n@googlegroups.com>
> On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 1:28:50 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

>>> But then may be one should also trust the Chinese people. If Dugin
>>> could not write something substantial and meaningful, ????, readers
>>> would not continue to publish his article.
>>
>> ~ 20 years ago, Dugin, such a great strategist, promoted (within
>> a narrow circle of his fans) ambitious plans for how Russia in
>> alliance with India and Iran would certainly expand and reformat
>> Eurasian Space through taking Tibet and Xinjang away from China :)
>> Are the Chinese people interested? I can give a link.
>
> The link is readily available from the net. I had came across it
> earlier.

Could you provide this link you had came across?

> Anyway, this kind of people are not uncommon during an era of great
> competition (????).

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From: os3...@netc.eu (Oleg Smirnov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: "the chief ideologist"
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 21:50:59 +0300
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 by: Oleg Smirnov - Sat, 26 Jun 2021 18:50 UTC

> In the ?? section <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>, two independent
> machine translations present it as follows:
> "known as the think tank of President Putin .."
> "known as President Putin's think tank .."
> That's how it is described.

Here's what Dugin said today to his Russian fans about the C19 pandemic.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyktb9GRUPM>

The authorities made a mistake when they didn't apply draconian lockdown
policies, like in China. Now we have the consequences. Vaccination doesn't
solve the problem.

C19 was almost certainly developed intentionally, as a bioweapon. All the
world leaders knew in advance this is a bioweapon, but kept it a secret.
But that is why all of them introduced the lockdowns so promptly, despite
the fact that there was no big mortality, - they were afraid of something
else, for a reason.

It's unlikely the Chinese created this bioweapon, but they might copy [and
spread] it. It's almost certainly the Americans created it. They used to
do such things, while the Chinese used to utilize someone else's designs.

Since C19 is a bioweapon, it's intended to kill. But we notice it does not
kill well enough. It means it either was leaked unfinished or we should
expect some unknown or undisclosed delayed consequences in the future. It
may occur that it will start to kill us in the future in some another way.
Nobody knows what to expect, only few know and keep it a secret.

The Kremlin exploits the situation in their own favor, and this is normal.
Whether the stocks rise or fall, you can play the stock market anyway. The
vaccines against C19 do not really work, none of them. Some of them may be
more dangerous, some may be less dangerous, some can even help you, but it
would be like any random effect can help you. No realiable vaccine exist
yet, in fact. The vaccination is like a gamble at a casino, - it can fall
on a red or on a black.

Actually, we should question not "why?" but "for what?" all this goes on.
Regardless of who and how exactly is now doing it, the C19 pandemic must
pursue some ultimate goal. So what is the goal? It is not material, it is
spiritual. It's a God's message. We all are doing something wrong, we all
are deluded, we're walking in a wrong direction. Wake up and realize it!

* * *

Do you really think this may be "Putin's brain" speaking in this way?
If you don't trust my above retelling, you can turn subtitles on and then
use "Auto-translate" feature. Check it yourself.

What catches the eye is, - not so veiled campaigning against vaccination.
Russia is now embracing "third wave", and the Kremlin has increased their
effort to stimulate people for vaccination. The Dugin's campaigning is
clearly in contradiction to it. I think the Kremlins really made a mistake,
although it's not about lockdowns (the Chinese style draconianism would
hardly be implementable in Russia), - but they might start stimulating the
populace for vaccination earlier.

The heavy conspirological accents in the above Dugin's rant ("bioweapon",
"some know and keep a secret" etc) is business as usual, his model of the
world is overcrowded with shadow actors, hidden goals and arcana.

This is what the Guancha.cn editors misrepresent as "Putin's think tank".

"the chief ideologist"

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From: os3...@netc.eu (Oleg Smirnov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.russian
Subject: "the chief ideologist"
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 00:02:17 +0300
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 by: Oleg Smirnov - Thu, 12 May 2022 21:02 UTC

>> Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
>> Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President
>> Putin" <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so.
More info about Dugin and other Putin's philosophers here.

<https://archive.is/sJC8Z> iai.tv

This writing is more competent against the Western low
standards of knowledge and interpretation of the Russia's
internals.

Besides, a general mistake would be to seek to link the
Kremlin's policymaking and Putin personally with a certain
philosophical trend/doctrine.

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 by: ltlee1 - Thu, 12 May 2022 21:43 UTC

On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 1:54:29 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> ltlee1, <news:6e55eafc-9ca3-47ba...@googlegroups.com>
> > On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 1:28:50 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
> >>> But then may be one should also trust the Chinese people. If Dugin
> >>> could not write something substantial and meaningful, ????, readers
> >>> would not continue to publish his article.
> >>
> >> ~ 20 years ago, Dugin, such a great strategist, promoted (within
> >> a narrow circle of his fans) ambitious plans for how Russia in
> >> alliance with India and Iran would certainly expand and reformat
> >> Eurasian Space through taking Tibet and Xinjang away from China :)
> >> Are the Chinese people interested? I can give a link.
> >
> > The link is readily available from the net. I had came across it
> > earlier.
> Could you provide this link you had came across?

Suggestions could be different in specifics. Bottom line, Dugin, being a Russian, of course, thinks in terms of Russian interest.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1154785/Russia-China-World-War-3-news-war-Aleksandr-Dugin-invasion-cold-war
"Mr Dugin’s book says the plan must start off with less sparsely populated Chinese Provinces such as Xinjiang and Tibet before moving on to Manchuria, having earlier said Mongolia should be taken over, this would create a buffer zone between the two powers. The book has not been translated from the original Russian yet, but one unofficial translation says it says China “must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled.”

> > Anyway, this kind of people are not uncommon during an era of great
> > competition (????).

Re: "the chief ideologist"

<92b5a1e8-c99c-4fc4-984a-5693f34ad7b6n@googlegroups.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=9363&group=soc.culture.china#9363

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Subject: Re: "the chief ideologist"
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 by: ltlee1 - Thu, 12 May 2022 21:46 UTC

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 5:05:10 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> >> Guancha.cn outlet misleads its readers when it claims that
> >> Alexander Dugin is "known as the think tank of President
> >> Putin" <https://bit.ly/3f7RFHi>. He never was known so.
> More info about Dugin and other Putin's philosophers here.
>
> <https://archive.is/sJC8Z> iai.tv
>
> This writing is more competent against the Western low
> standards of knowledge and interpretation of the Russia's
> internals.
>
> Besides, a general mistake would be to seek to link the
> Kremlin's policymaking and Putin personally with a certain
> philosophical trend/doctrine.

Nothing new.
To the degree that Putin is considered transatlanticists' enemy,
he would be considered autocratic, powerful crazy, kind of insane,
and whatever.

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