Peter Moylan submitted this idea :
> On 24/04/24 11:10, Snidely wrote:
>> Watch this space, where Peter Moylan advised that...
>>> On 23/04/24 13:04, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>
>>>> For a while, some version of Windows had the ability to put
>>>> comments that would show up in directories alongside the file
>>>> names. I remember finding it a bit awkward, and not too useful;
>>>> and then the option disappeared (I think).
>>>
>>> Files in OS/2 have something called "extended attributes".
>>> Initially one of the biggest motivations for this was to create a
>>> difference between "file name" and "title", in the days when we had
>>> file systems that only allowed 8.3 names but GUI users wanted
>>> longer names. Those days are long gone, but the extended attributes
>>> continue to be useful. For example, files have a "file type" that
>>> is not the same as what comes after the last dot in the name, and
>>> this supports an object-oriented desktop. Rexx scripts have an
>>> extended attribute that is the (semi-)compiled version of the
>>> script. A file's icon is also an extended attribute.
>>
>> ISHRA
>
> Sorry, that one whooshed me.

Consider posting times in this thread.

>>> Some of this would have gone into NT initially, because NT and OS/2
>>> were the same operating system until the big fight between
>>> Microsoft and IBM, but it seems that Microsoft killed off the
>>> object-orientation fairly quickly, preferring to go for a GUI that
>>> looked familiar to users of more primitive versions of Windows.
>>
>> I miss the Lisa's tear-off-a-sheet metaphor for starting a new
>> document.
>
> The current version of OS/2, ArcaOS 5.1.0, still comes with a
> "Templates" folder on the desktop. The templates are somewhat similar to
> that tear-off-a-sheet metaphor. For example, to install a new printer
> driver you drag a copy of the "Printer" template, and to create a new
> folder you can drag from the "Folder" template. That latter case is
> especially useful if you have created a new folder class that inherits
> from the "Folder" object but adds some special features.
>
> Those templates have been present in OS/2 for a long time, probably
> since Warp 3 (which was released at about the same time as Windows NT),
> but the impression I have is that this feature is not much used. Perhaps
> this is because, with the shrinking market for OS/2, the users that are
> left are the sort of people who work a lot with command-line shells
> rather than GUI shells.
>
> The main exceptions are the Color Palettes and the Font Palettes. For
> example, most of the software that I write comes with a configuration
> notebook. If people don't like my choices of font in that notebook, they
> can drag a new font from a font palette and drop it onto a notebook
> page. That is one example where GUI working is more convenient than
> working in a command-line shell.

Interesting. I have seen almost nothing of OS/2, so I rely on your
reports.

NT 3.5.1 (if I recall the numbering correctly) had an interesting game
with bricks in a wall, but I had barely started with that version when
NT 4.0 came out, and I was busy learning about storage drivers.

/dps

--
You could try being nicer and politer
> instead, and see how that works out.
-- Katy Jennison

Thus spake Peter Moylan:
> On 23/04/24 01:46, Garrett Wollman wrote:

>> There was some dispute within Microsoft about whether DOS 2.0 should
>> follow Unix or DEC conventions, to the point that there was a
>> CONFIG.SYS setting SWITCHAR which would determine whether standard
>> DOS command-line utilities would use a '/' or a '-' to introduce
>> options. DOS itself supported either '/' or '\' as a directory
>> separator but the utilities would always output '\'. (Note that you
>> needed the switch character not to be '/' if you wanted to specify
>> pathnames that way on the command line. Most people did not bother
>> to change it and most third-party software didn't support it.)
>
> Precisely. CP/M was influenced by DEC conventions (it even had a PIP

"Peripheral Interface Program"? My grey cells are being weak around
the 'I'. Hmm, maybe "Interchange".

> command to do file operations), and the DOS for the PC was just a
> development from CP/M. Using '/' to specify command-line options was a
> well-established convention by then. (Unix didn't do it that way, but
> back then Unix wasn't well-known, and anyway it wasn't available for the
> PC.)

[other content left on another twig]

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl

Peter Moylan asserted that:
> On 23/04/24 01:46, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>
>> There was some dispute within Microsoft about whether DOS 2.0 should
>> follow Unix or DEC conventions, to the point that there was a
>> CONFIG.SYS setting SWITCHAR which would determine whether standard
>> DOS command-line utilities would use a '/' or a '-' to introduce
>> options. DOS itself supported either '/' or '\' as a directory
>> separator but the utilities would always output '\'. (Note that you
>> needed the switch character not to be '/' if you wanted to specify
>> pathnames that way on the command line. Most people did not bother
>> to change it and most third-party software didn't support it.)
>
> Precisely. CP/M was influenced by DEC conventions (it even had a PIP
> command to do file operations), and the DOS for the PC was just a
> development from CP/M. Using '/' to specify command-line options was a
> well-established convention by then. (Unix didn't do it that way, but
> back then Unix wasn't well-known, and anyway it wasn't available for the
> PC.)
>
> There was no conflict with filename notation, because the file system
> was a flat system with no subdirectories. (The disk was a small floppy
> disk, remember, so you didn't have a lot of files anyway.) By the time
> subdirectories were added to DOS, the '/' was already in use for other
> things, so a new separator character had to be found. The backslash was
> an obvious choice.

Speaking of CP/M, Zilog is ceasing production of Z80 chips as June 14.
That is, the 40-pin DIP versions. Some offspring will remain in the
eZ80 line with modern packaging.

<URL:https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/04/after-48-years-zilog-is-killing-the-classic-standalone-z80-microprocessor-chip/>

/dps "See also Microsoft's first hardware product"

--
Who, me? And what lacuna?

On 25/04/24 12:54, Snidely wrote:
> Thus spake Peter Moylan:

>> Precisely. CP/M was influenced by DEC conventions (it even had a
>> PIP
>
> "Peripheral Interface Program"? My grey cells are being weak around
> the 'I'. Hmm, maybe "Interchange".

Mine too are weakening, but I'm reasonably sure that "interchange" is
correct.

These days, "copy" and "move" operations are mostly used to move files
from place to place on the hard drive. Back in those days, the focus was
more on moving files between devices.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) writes:
> In article <fe3cc0b6c6a5efcae02a6b034fc68e65@www.novabbs.com>,
> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Sn!pe wrote:
>>> I got my first IBM PC XT in 1984 and MS DOS certainly used backslash
>>> as an integral part at that time; I suspect that DOS predates LaTeX.
>
> PC-DOS did not have hierarchical directories until PC-DOS 2.0 was
> released in 1983 to coincide with the introduction of the PC XT,
> because a single directory was clearly going to be problem for
> organizing a 10 MB hard drive. Hard drives on CP/M systems of the
> time were partitioned into separate virtual disks, so CP/M never got
> hierarchical file systems. (Likewise the DEC operating systems of the
> seventies that inspired much of the user interface of both CP/M and
> PC-DOS; if they had any directory support, it was one directory per
> user, as also with IBM mainframe operating systems. Multics and Unix
> were outliers in this respect.)
>
> There was some dispute within Microsoft about whether DOS 2.0 should
> follow Unix or DEC conventions,

DEC's CP/M as you say didn't have have a convention for the concept that
didn't exists, but their VMS, which also goes back to the 70s, used '.'
for path separators, IIRC.

>>Plain TeX certainly uses the \ as an escape character, like LaTeX. The
>>first running version was in 1978.
>
> And C used the backslash as an escape character before that.

And Algol as a composing character before that: /\ and \/ for logical
operations.

Phil
--
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have
gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/

On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:09:02 +0300, Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org>
wrote:

>wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) writes:
>> In article <fe3cc0b6c6a5efcae02a6b034fc68e65@www.novabbs.com>,
>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Sn!pe wrote:
>>>> I got my first IBM PC XT in 1984 and MS DOS certainly used backslash
>>>> as an integral part at that time; I suspect that DOS predates LaTeX.
>>
>> PC-DOS did not have hierarchical directories until PC-DOS 2.0 was
>> released in 1983 to coincide with the introduction of the PC XT,
>> because a single directory was clearly going to be problem for
>> organizing a 10 MB hard drive. Hard drives on CP/M systems of the
>> time were partitioned into separate virtual disks, so CP/M never got
>> hierarchical file systems. (Likewise the DEC operating systems of the
>> seventies that inspired much of the user interface of both CP/M and
>> PC-DOS; if they had any directory support, it was one directory per
>> user, as also with IBM mainframe operating systems. Multics and Unix
>> were outliers in this respect.)
>>
>> There was some dispute within Microsoft about whether DOS 2.0 should
>> follow Unix or DEC conventions,
>
>DEC's CP/M as you say didn't have have a convention for the concept that
>didn't exists, but their VMS, which also goes back to the 70s, used '.'
>for path separators, IIRC.

Yes! I remember at least one level of subdirectory because at Pitt,
Projects (which a Project Leader applied for) could have multiple
Users, created by the Project leader. One of my accounts was
[124306.340021] for [project, user]. I'm pretty sure those were
square brackets, but I seem to have cleared out all of my work files
from 20 years ago, so I can't check. (Hmm. I do have old backups...)

Using subdirectories was less important when the user was
restricted to tiny disk space as the default allocation, owing to
cost.

>
>>>Plain TeX certainly uses the \ as an escape character, like LaTeX. The
>>>first running version was in 1978.
>>
>> And C used the backslash as an escape character before that.
>
>And Algol as a composing character before that: /\ and \/ for logical
>operations.
>
--
Rich Ulrich

On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 11:29:26 -0700
Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:

[]
>
> NT 3.5.1 (if I recall the numbering correctly) had an interesting game
> with bricks in a wall, but I had barely started with that version when
> NT 4.0 came out, and I was busy learning about storage drivers.

I don't recall that; but then again the boxes we had it on were
meant to be Servers for file storage, not toys!

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

In article <q72l2j522dessr1ol27j4127at3mleuq6g@4ax.com>,
Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

>Yes! I remember at least one level of subdirectory because at Pitt,
>Projects (which a Project Leader applied for) could have multiple
>Users, created by the Project leader. One of my accounts was
>[124306.340021] for [project, user]. I'm pretty sure those were
>square brackets, but I seem to have cleared out all of my work files
>from 20 years ago, so I can't check. (Hmm. I do have old backups...)

This is basically just copying PPNs from the older PDP-10 operating
systems that didn't have hierarchical directories. But yes, VMS did
use dots as the directory separator in the directory part of the a
filespec. (The root directory of a device was signified by [000000].)
The full syntax was quite baroque:
NODE"REMOTE-USER PASSWORD"::DEVICE:[DIR1.DIR2.DIR3]NAME.TYPE;VER

....where DEVICE might have more structure on its own (such as
HSC015$DUA100). Ordinary VMS users were insulated from this because
VMS had support for "logical names" that could be defined by the user
or by the system operator to refer to specific devices or
subdirectories.

TOPS-10 didn't have this, nor did any of the PDP-11 operating systems.
If I recall correctly, TOPS-20 did have hierarchical directories, and
IIRC the form there was DEV:<DIR1.DIR2.DIR3>NAME.TYPE (I forget how it
handled versions). On ITS, file specifications were NODE:USER;NAME TYPE
(yes wih an embedded space), and on WAITS it was NAME.TYPE[PPN].(*) PPNs
were better known in the 1980s because CompuServe ran on PDP-10s, and
every CompuServe user was identified by a PPN.

I do not recall the syntax used by Multics.

-GAWollman
(once upon a time, 76630,774)

(*) The public name of the Jargon File at SAIL was AIWORD.RF[UP,DOC],
whereas at MIT it was AI:MRC;JARGON > where ">" was an ITS shorthand
for "the highest version number available" as ITS file types had to do
double duty with the version number.

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 00:08:16 -0000 (UTC),
wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <q72l2j522dessr1ol27j4127at3mleuq6g@4ax.com>,
>Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Yes! I remember at least one level of subdirectory because at Pitt,
>>Projects (which a Project Leader applied for) could have multiple
>>Users, created by the Project leader. One of my accounts was
>>[124306.340021] for [project, user]. I'm pretty sure those were
>>square brackets, but I seem to have cleared out all of my work files
>>from 20 years ago, so I can't check. (Hmm. I do have old backups...)
>
>This is basically just copying PPNs from the older PDP-10 operating
>systems that didn't have hierarchical directories. But yes, VMS did
>use dots as the directory separator in the directory part of the a
>filespec. (The root directory of a device was signified by [000000].)
>The full syntax was quite baroque:
> NODE"REMOTE-USER PASSWORD"::DEVICE:[DIR1.DIR2.DIR3]NAME.TYPE;VER

NAME.TYPE;VER -- I had forgotten about Version number as
part of every file name.

Version was incremented every file save, leaving the earlier
version untouched. Users could change the default setting
by which the system only kept the two most recent -- I don't
remember changing that for any reason, and most users would
never have known of it.

There was some brief command that told the system to purge
all but the most recent. That was a usual cleanup step at the
end of the day, since disk space was to be conserved.

I remember that when I started using PC-DOS, I missed ";ver"
as if it were a serious lack, not just a habit. But I don't remember
what made it useful to me. - Well, I could easily the names to
compare a file with its last version.

>
>...where DEVICE might have more structure on its own (such as
>HSC015$DUA100). Ordinary VMS users were insulated from this because
>VMS had support for "logical names" that could be defined by the user
>or by the system operator to refer to specific devices or
>subdirectories.

Logical names were very useful.

>
>TOPS-10 didn't have this, nor did any of the PDP-11 operating systems.
>If I recall correctly, TOPS-20 did have hierarchical directories, and
>IIRC the form there was DEV:<DIR1.DIR2.DIR3>NAME.TYPE (I forget how it
>handled versions). On ITS, file specifications were NODE:USER;NAME TYPE
>(yes wih an embedded space), and on WAITS it was NAME.TYPE[PPN].(*) PPNs
>were better known in the 1980s because CompuServe ran on PDP-10s, and
>every CompuServe user was identified by a PPN.
>
>I do not recall the syntax used by Multics.
>
>-GAWollman
>(once upon a time, 76630,774)
>
>(*) The public name of the Jargon File at SAIL was AIWORD.RF[UP,DOC],
>whereas at MIT it was AI:MRC;JARGON > where ">" was an ITS shorthand
>for "the highest version number available" as ITS file types had to do
>double duty with the version number.

--
Rich Ulrich

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> writes:
> On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 09:44:21 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 23/04/24 01:46, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>
>>> There was some dispute within Microsoft about whether DOS 2.0 should
>>> follow Unix or DEC conventions, to the point that there was a
>>> CONFIG.SYS setting SWITCHAR which would determine whether standard
>>> DOS command-line utilities would use a '/' or a '-' to introduce
>>> options. DOS itself supported either '/' or '\' as a directory
>>> separator but the utilities would always output '\'. (Note that you
>>> needed the switch character not to be '/' if you wanted to specify
>>> pathnames that way on the command line. Most people did not bother
>>> to change it and most third-party software didn't support it.)
>>
>>Precisely. CP/M was influenced by DEC conventions (it even had a PIP
>>command to do file operations), and the DOS for the PC was just a
>>development from CP/M. Using '/' to specify command-line options was a
>>well-established convention by then. (Unix didn't do it that way, but
>>back then Unix wasn't well-known, and anyway it wasn't available for the
>>PC.)
>
> I don't remember hearing of a DEC connection with CP/M.

ISTR CP/M was mildly influenced by DEC's TOPS-10, as that was the system
Kildall developed it on, it was his day-to-day OS. Other DEC inflences
would also have been available, of course, but none of them would have
anything to do with path separators.

> I do remember something like this, from Google -
> Windows is actually, in a complicated historical way, a descendent
> of VMS in roughly the same way Linux is descended from UNIX: a
> reimplementation of the core concepts.
>
> Elsewhere, there was mention in particular of VAX =>Windows NT,
> and NT was what I vaguely remembered hearing.

Yup, Dave Cutler. Lifted straight from DEC into MS to lead the NT project.

> I computed on DEC-10s for 8-10 years, then on VAXs for 20+.
> Logically, it seems like I must have used both systems for a
> couple of overlapping years, but I can't remember that at all.
>
> I also have not yet recalled using subdirectories on either,
> though I think that the VAX must have had them.

VMS had: ``SET DEF [A.B.C]'' for unix's ``cd a/b/c''

Phil
--
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have
gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/

On 19/04/2024 13:36, Hibou wrote:
> Le 19/04/2024 à 13:11, James Harris a écrit :
>>
>> AISI as humans we ought to  to be able to look at a particular
>> punctuation character and 'know' whether it comes before or after
>> another regardless of the context. Then an index would be usable
>> whether the book happened to be about computing, classification
>> theory, or whatever.
>
> I think that's a specialist requirement. Numbers have magnitude, so
> order themselves naturally; we use the alphabet for sorting, too - but
> there's no need for order if letters are used only for writing words.
> Why should inverted commas, ticks, 'therefore' signs, pound signs,
> hashes, and daggers come before or after each other? A big problem in
> imposing an order on them is that there are an enormous number of them,
> no-one uses more than a small subset, and so people are never going to
> know where to put most of them.
>
> <https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Unicode/List_of_useful_symbols>

It's really the other way round. W.R.T indexing I could see someone make
an argument to say that if there were only a few punctuation characters
then their order would not much matter as long as an index listed them
together and not mixed in with the letters.

But the very notion of there being many of them makes it more important
for them to have a defined order so that we humans had some chance of
finding a certain string that we want.

--
James Harris

On 23/04/2024 02:51, Snidely wrote:
> Bertel Lund Hansen suggested that ...
>> Hibou wrote:
>>
>>> Le 19/04/2024 à 13:11, James Harris a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> AISI as humans we ought to  to be able to look at a particular
>>>> punctuation character and 'know' whether it comes before or after
>>>> another regardless of the context. Then an index would be usable
>>>> whether the book happened to be about computing, classification
>>>> theory, or whatever.

....

>> I think that James Harris is mainly concerned about ASCII characters.
>> I'd suggest just using the order of their code calue. Programmers at
>> least will understand immediately.
>
> A certain M Brader has shown these comments as significant:
>
> "Things are getting too standard around here.
> Time to innovate!"
> -- Ian Darwin and David Keldsen
>
> "If the standard says that [things] depend on the
> phase of the moon, the programmer should be prepared
> to look out the window as necessary."
> -- Chris Torek
>
> "The nice thing about standards is
> that you have so many to choose from..."
> -- Andrew Tanenbaum
>
> "Oh what a tangled web we weave,
> a literate geekiness to achieve."
> -- Steve Summit
>
>
> /dps "Have we answered James' RFP yet?"

In effect, it seems from the replies that the answer is that there is no
pre-existing order of punctuation characters (both ASCII and others
combined). In this case, Tanenbaum would be disappointed!

--
James Harris

James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:
>But the very notion of there being many of them makes it more important
>for them to have a defined order so that we humans had some chance of
>finding a certain string that we want.

I'd like to add that Unicode groups all characters into different
/categories/.

The Python program

import unicodedata; print( unicodedata.category( '+' ))

outputs: "Sm" (i.e., "Symbol, Math").

There are also /character ranges/ in Unicode as well.
The symbol "+" belongs to the range "0020-007F Basic Latin".

A book doesn't have to be about math or Latin to still find
those categories and ranges useful for helping readers locate
a symbol in an index.

So, maybe those categories and ranges could be useful for
organizing characters in an index.

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:
>So, maybe those categories and ranges could be useful for
>organizing characters in an index.

You could totally have a list (not an "index"!) of all the Unicode
symbols in order of their code numbers, with the code numbers
and the relevant page numbers for each symbol. Then you could have
/different indexes/ for that list - one sorted by grayscale, another
by character names, another by character category, and so on. But it
would be super dope /if you already knew the exact Unicode ID for a
symbol/, and then could just find it in the book using that code!

("Dope" is being used above as a positive adjective to describe
something as being cool, excellent, or impressive. This usage
is common among younger generations, particularly in youth
culture, music, and internet/online communities [this is what
an AI chatbot told me].)

On 2024-04-19, Gleb Hlebov wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Apr 2024 10:14:50, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>>>Locales C or POSIX will sort on the characters proper, (in fact,
>>>bytes, of UTF8), without interpreting them.
>> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I wonder? I tend
>> to say it as if it were Italian or Spanish. But is that right for
>> English?
>> To answer my own question:
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/locale#English
>
> Locale is French ("e" drops), Finale is Italian ("e" retains).
>
> Although, Genre is French (but "e" retains).

English "morale" (OED sense 2, "mental or emotional state (with regard
to confidence, hope, enthusiasm, etc.)" equals approximately & is
derived from French "moral". The OED etymology says:

In sense 2 after French moral (see moral n.), with English spelling
with final ‑e perhaps partly by confusion with French morale, and
partly as means of indicating pronunciation with stress on second
syllable; compare moral n. 8. ["now rare", same as morale 2]

--
The stakes are high and so am I

Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote or quoted:
>English "morale" (OED sense 2, "mental or emotional state (with regard
>to confidence, hope, enthusiasm, etc.)" equals approximately & is
>derived from French "moral". The OED etymology says:
> In sense 2 after French moral (see moral n.), with English spelling
> with final ‑e perhaps partly by confusion with French morale, and
> partly as means of indicating pronunciation with stress on second
> syllable; compare moral n. 8. ["now rare", same as morale 2]

I'm trying to put my new homemade search program through its paces,
so I gotta get my hands on somethin' to test it out:

| |So, "fortay" it is now, at least in this neck of the woods. Never mind, it's
| |not the only word that's changed pronunciation. A good example that springs
|>|to mind is "moral"/"[morale]".
| |
| |btw, How do _you_ pronounce "lingerie"?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Bailey on 2003-09-02 03:38:11+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: Pronunciation of "forte"

| |> same as A is pronounced in French.
| |
|>|Word A is "moral" and word B is "[morale]".
| |English word A "moral" is translated by French word B "morale", when it
| |means "the moral of a story", "la morale d'une histoire".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isabelle Cecchini on 2003-09-20 19:22:08+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: [=SDC=] 17 Plus ca change, the more it's the same thing

| |English word A "moral" is translated by French word B "morale", when it
| |means "the moral of a story", "la morale d'une histoire".
|>|English word B "[morale]" is translated by French word A "moral", when
| |we're talking about "the troops' morale", "le moral des troupes".
| |English word A "moral" is also French A "moral", when it is an
| |adjective, as when we speak about people having "no moral sense", "aucun
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isabelle Cecchini on 2003-09-20 19:22:08+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: [=SDC=] 17 Plus ca change, the more it's the same thing

| |adjective, as when we speak about people having "no moral sense", "aucun
| |sens moral".
|>|Now, English word B "[morale]" is pronounced about the same as French word
| |A "moral". Of course, it's also pronounced about the same as French word
| |B "morale", but nothing in the wording of the conundrum says it
| |shouldn't, does it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isabelle Cecchini on 2003-09-20 19:22:08+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: [=SDC=] 17 Plus ca change, the more it's the same thing

| |I also have "mall", plus a few more loanwords (indeed I don't seem to
| |have the "father" vowel before word-final /l/ at all) and I don't have
|>|"gal", not being American. RP, I think, uses /A/ in "[morale]" etc.,
| |but I don't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jonathan Jordan on 2003-11-14 18:27:35+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: OT: Thanks for the postcards!

| |"substantive," from French "substantive," feminine of "substantif,"
| |"possessive," from French "possessive," the feminine of "possessif,"
|>|"[morale]" as in "the soldiers' morale," from French "morale," the feminine of
| |"moral."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raymond S. Wise on 2004-06-09 02:48:16+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: Odd pronunciations of English words derived from French

|>|"[Morale] support" is an example of that intriguing combo: a phrase which
| |is non-standard but is semantically more correct than its standard
| |brother.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matti Lamprhey on 2005-01-19 12:04:36+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: Morale support [WAS: OT: Sharon]

|>|Or "[morale]". There are plenty of folk who think that beatings improve
| |morals and that "morale" is a posh kind of "moral".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Malcolm on 2005-03-18 13:37:02+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: The beatings will continue until morale improves

| |like myself to identify where the speaker comes from. To get my point,
| |I suggest you ask a British friend of yours to say words like e.g.
|>|"hot", "stop", "long", "comfort", "scenario", "[morale]", "banana",
| |"tomato",
| |"predecessor", or "patriot". Next, ask an American friend of yours
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goedel on 2006-01-02 02:42:51+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: American and British Actors mixed in Movies

| |of its origin, isn't it English? I think it is.
| |
|>|Which of the following are part of the English language: [morale],
| |pizza, chutzpah, schadenfreude, bon mot, bok choy, salaam, lama,
| |llama, lllama (ask Ogden Nash)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lieblich on 2006-12-09 22:30:13+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: It is to laugh

| |Yes. Perhaps I was drunk when I chose my words. I meant "moral" in
| |the sense associated, not with morality, but with something closer to
|>|[morale]. A kind of momentum. When I was young enough to be taking gym
| |class, we were told to pair off once for some kind of wrestling, and
| |my opponent got the advantage of me early, so that he had me bent
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CDB on 2007-11-30 17:29:39+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: Conventions (was Re: Misnomer being taught in all sorts of math texts?)

| |Mother part:
| |
|>|~ Provided moral support (or maybe it was "[morale]" support), advice[*],
| |and a little bit of extra money to one of my children. Later, I called
| |the other "child" and spent some time just catching up on that one's
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maria Conlon on 2009-10-11 04:39:45+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: OT. Reaffirming one's status as Wife and Mother.

| |(ˈmɒrəl)
| |
|>|Also 4 [morale], -alle, 4–7 morall.
| |
| |[ad. L. mōrālis, f. mōr-, mōs custom (pl. mōrēs manners, morals,
....
| |of Gr. ἠθικός ethic a. (mōrēs being the accepted Latin equivalent of
| |ἤθη). It has passed into all the mod. Rom. and Teut. langs.: Fr., Sp.,
|>|Pg. moral, It. [morale]; G. moralisch, Du. moraal, Sw., Da. moral.]
| |
| |1. a.1.a Of or pertaining to character or disposition, considered as
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Brooks on 2010-08-18 19:37:52+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: Fowler &c.

| |Your subject line should probably have been "An article about morality"
|>|or "... about moral judgements". "[Morale]" has a different meaning.
| |
| |--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Moylan on 2010-10-06 12:16:57+00:00 in "alt.usage.english",
Subject: a article about morale

On 27/04/2024 17:36, Stefan Ram wrote:
> James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:
>> But the very notion of there being many of them makes it more important
>> for them to have a defined order so that we humans had some chance of
>> finding a certain string that we want.
>
> I'd like to add that Unicode groups all characters into different
> /categories/.
>
> The Python program
>
> import unicodedata; print( unicodedata.category( '+' ))
>
> outputs: "Sm" (i.e., "Symbol, Math").

Well, I suspect that Python is categorising that as "Symbol, Math" based
on the internal code of '+' rather than its appearance, i.e. the
categorisation would be based on a numeric code that a human does not
normally see rather than on the symbol that would be seen by a human.

>
> There are also /character ranges/ in Unicode as well.
> The symbol "+" belongs to the range "0020-007F Basic Latin".
>
> A book doesn't have to be about math or Latin to still find
> those categories and ranges useful for helping readers locate
> a symbol in an index.
>
> So, maybe those categories and ranges could be useful for
> organizing characters in an index.

Sadly, Unicode sometimes has certain identical-looking symbols stored
more than once under different codes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoglyph

Unicode may be acceptable for typesetting (though even that's debatable)
but it's a nightmare for processing - such as indexing.

What's probably needed is a common standard that humans can use
visually. For example, perhaps one could have as separate symbols:

hyphen
en dash
em dash

but not others which are, say, of a length somewhere between that of a
hyphen and that of an en dash.

On the topic of this thread, all such mid horizontal lines could be
adjacent in an index, and would probably appear in increasing order of
length so that a human would be able to know where to look for each one.

--
James Harris

James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:
>hyphen
>en dash
>em dash
....
>On the topic of this thread, all such mid horizontal lines could be
>adjacent in an index, and would probably appear in increasing order of
>length so that a human would be able to know where to look for each one.

You can have an index like this:

D

dash: (see also: "hyphen")
dash, em — 8212
dash, en – 8211

E

em dash: see dash
en dash: see dash

H

horizontal line: see "dash" and "hyphen"
hyphen (see also: "dash") - 45

L

line, horizontal: see "dash", "hyphen"

. (I just had a thought - I reckon there are actual "indexers"
out there workin' for publishers, folks whose whole gig is
puttin' together indexes. Sounds like a real craft you gotta
learn the ropes of. Might be worth tryna get in touch with
some of those cats, see if you can get 'em to lend a hand!)

Here's an example: First the symbol list (not an index!) "1.",
then various indices "2.":

1. List of Symbols and relevant pages by code numbers
/use the indices below, under "2." to find a code number/

no sym page(s)

42 "*" 3, 5, 79ff
43 "+" 3, 5, 79ff
44 "," 3, 5, 79ff
59 ";" 3, 5, 79ff
48 "0" 3, 5, 79ff
49 "1" 3, 5, 79ff
65 "A" 3, 5, 79ff
66 "B" 3, 5, 79ff

2. Indices

2.1 Graphical Indices

2.1.1 Index of Code Numbers by Weight of Black
/find the code number here and then look up the page under
"1." above./

, 44
; 59
+ 43
* 42
1 49
A 65
B 66
0 48

2.1.2 Index of Code Numbers by Number of Holes in the Symbol
/find the code number here and then look up the page under
"1." above./

0 , 44
0 ; 59
0 + 43
0 * 42
0 1 49
1 A 65
2 B 66
2 0 48

2.1.3 Index of Code Numbers by Number of separated parts of the Symbol
/find the code number here and then look up the page under "1."
above./

1 , 44
1 + 43
1 * 42
1 1 49
1 A 65
1 B 66
1 0 48
2 ; 59

2.1.4 Index of Code Numbers by Number of strokes of the Symbol
/find the code number here and then look up the page under "1."
above./

1 , 44
2 ; 59
2 + 43
2 0 48
2 A 65
2 B 66
3 * 42
3 1 49
3 A 65
3 B 66

2.2 Indices of Names

2.2.1 Index of Code Numbers by Names in Alphabetical Order
/find the code number here and then look up the page under "1."
above./

"0" 48
"1" 49
"A" 65
"ASTERISK" "*" 42
"B" 66
"CAPITAL LETTER" SEE "LATIN CAPITAL LETTER"
"COMMA" "," 44
"DIGIT ONE" "1" 49
"DIGIT ZERO" "0" 48
"LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A" "A" 65
"LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B" "B" 66
"LATIN LETTER" SEE "LATIN CAPITAL LETTER"
"LETTER" SEE "LATIN CAPITAL LETTER"
"NADA" "0" 48
"NAUGHT" "0" 48
"ONE" "1" 49
"PLUS" "+" 43
"PLUS SIGN" "+" 43
"SEMICOLON" ";" 59
"ZERO" "0" 48
"ZILCH" "0" 48

2.3 Indices by type

2.3.1 Index of Code Numbers of Math Symbols
/find the code number here and then look up the page under "1."
above./

+ 43
* 42

2.3.2 Index of Code Numbers of Punctuation
/find the code number here and then look up the page under "1."
above./

, 44
; 59

2.3.3 Index of Code Numbers of Digits
/find the code number here and then look up the page under "1."
above./

0 48
1 49

2.3.4 Index of Code Numbers of Letters
/find the code number here and then look up the page under "1."
above./

A 65
B 66

2.3.5 Index of Code Numbers of Lines

2.3.5.1 Index of Code Numbers of Horizontal Lines

.. . .

On 2024-05-01, James Harris wrote:

> Sadly, Unicode sometimes has certain identical-looking symbols stored
> more than once under different codes.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoglyph
>
> Unicode may be acceptable for typesetting (though even that's debatable)
> but it's a nightmare for processing - such as indexing.
>
> What's probably needed is a common standard that humans can use
> visually. For example, perhaps one could have as separate symbols:
>
> hyphen
> en dash
> em dash
>
> but not others which are, say, of a length somewhere between that of a
> hyphen and that of an en dash.
>
> On the topic of this thread, all such mid horizontal lines could be
> adjacent in an index, and would probably appear in increasing order of
> length so that a human would be able to know where to look for each one.

You need more than just those three for Laurence Sterne's works.

--
It was far easier for you as civilised men to behave
like barbarians, than it was for them as barbarians to
behave like civilised men. ---Spock

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:
>2.1.3 Index of Code Numbers by Number of separated parts of the Symbol
> /find the code number here and then look up the page under "1."
> above./
>1 , 44
>1 + 43
>1 * 42
>1 1 49
>1 A 65
>1 B 66
>1 0 48
>2 ; 59

A potential enhancement of such indices would be to omit the
entries with the most common type (i.e., "1" above). The list
above would then be rendered in the following more concise manner.

2.1.3 Index of Code Numbers by Number of separated parts of the Symbol
/find the code number here and then look up the page under "1."
above./
/Symbols with only one part are omitted from this index./

2 ; 59

We can't exactly suss out the code number for the omitted symbols
from this index then, but even if we could, it'd be a real
bear given how many there are and the lack of granular breakdown.
Better to hit up some other indices to track those down!

On 01/05/2024 13:51, Stefan Ram wrote:
> James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:
>> hyphen
>> en dash
>> em dash
> ...
>> On the topic of this thread, all such mid horizontal lines could be
>> adjacent in an index, and would probably appear in increasing order of
>> length so that a human would be able to know where to look for each one.
>
> You can have an index like this:
>
> D
>
> dash: (see also: "hyphen")
> dash, em — 8212
> dash, en – 8211
>
> E
>
> em dash: see dash
> en dash: see dash
>
> H
>
> horizontal line: see "dash" and "hyphen"
> hyphen (see also: "dash") - 45
>
> L
>
> line, horizontal: see "dash", "hyphen"

As far as I can see that would be feasible for single-character
indexing. However, in many computing contexts multi-character 'words'
exist such as

?# in shell scripts
/* and // in C-like languages
:= in Ada
:upper: in grep

etc so AISI the individual punctuation characters need a standard
sequence just as do letters of the alphabet.

>
> . (I just had a thought - I reckon there are actual "indexers"
> out there workin' for publishers, folks whose whole gig is
> puttin' together indexes. Sounds like a real craft you gotta
> learn the ropes of. Might be worth tryna get in touch with
> some of those cats, see if you can get 'em to lend a hand!)

Interesting idea, although the one book in which I saw symbols indexed
(K&R 2) did not order such symbols consistently so there may be no
universally agreed ordering.

In the absence of there being a pre-existing standard order I think I'd
need to define one. I think it was Tanenbaum who was reputed to have
said something along the lines of: "The nice thing about standards is
there's always room for one more"!

>
> Here's an example: First the symbol list (not an index!) "1.",
> then various indices "2.":

....

Thanks for the examples, now snipped. Yes, agreed to the principle that
for an index there can be multiple headings under which an entry can be
sought.

--
James Harris

Ar an dara lá de mí Bealtaine, scríobh James Harris:

> [...] Interesting idea, although the one book in which I saw symbols indexed
> (K&R 2) did not order such symbols consistently so there may be no
> universally agreed ordering.

There is, it’s the numeric order of ASCII (and thence Unicode).

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

Remember Thursday, when Aidan Kehoe asked plaintively:
> Ar an dara lá de mí Bealtaine, scríobh James Harris:
>
>> [...] Interesting idea, although the one book in which I saw symbols indexed
>> (K&R 2) did not order such symbols consistently so there may be no
>> universally agreed ordering.
>
> There is, it’s the numeric order of ASCII (and thence Unicode).

That's only universally agreed upon for coding. For indexing, we've
plenty of examples showing its not universal there.

/dps

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

On 2024-05-02, Snidely wrote:

> --
> Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
> future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
> virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
> Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

OK, I'll bite. That's the gene that causes haemochromatosis, right?

--
Civilization is a race between catastrophe and education.
---H G Wells

On 02-May-24 19:36, Snidely wrote:
> Remember  Thursday, when  Aidan Kehoe asked plaintively:
>>  Ar an dara lá de mí Bealtaine, scríobh James Harris:
>>> [...] Interesting idea, although the one book in which I saw symbols
>>> indexed
>>> (K&R 2) did not order such symbols consistently so there may be no
>>> universally agreed ordering.
>>
>> There is, it’s the numeric order of ASCII (and thence Unicode).
>
> That's only universally agreed upon for coding.  For indexing, we've
> plenty of examples showing its not universal there.

When creating an index, it's reasonable to expect the reader to know the
order of numbers and the sequence of the alphabet. It isn't reasonable
to expect the reader to advance beyond this point.

--
Sam Plusnet