On 4/26/2021 7:53 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:25:19 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:50:36 -0400, J. Clarke
>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:01:38 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:52:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/25/2021 8:42 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:07:12 -0400, J. Clarke
>>>>>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>> Snip
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Between 1900 and 1975 the US managed to invent and bring into
>>>>>>> production the airplane, nuclear power, computers, and the capability
>>>>>>> to land on the Moon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the people born in the '30 and '40s. The millenials live in
>>>>>> mommy's basement and play X-Box. We were talking about 60 the last 60
>>>>>> years.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well in all fairness, vehicles built in the US were pieces of crap from
>>>>> 72~2000. Progressively getting better year by year. Emission systems
>>>>> that hardly worked and wasted fuel was not healthier for the earth.
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems this is when the Japanese entered our market and pretty much
>>>>> showed us how a vehicle should be built.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Glad you only went back to 1972 !
>>>> 1971 MotorTrend's Car Of The Year
>>>> Chevy Vega ... :-)
>>>
>>> Which was actually a pretty nice car until it rusted away. My Dad had
>>> one--he really enjoyed driving it.
>>
>>
>> I had one as a teenager - my second car - it was ~ 4 years old
>> & I paid $ 450. for it - I needed wheels fast for a job transfer -
>> - the rust-repairs were already failing badly ;
>> it burned oil ; noisy ; no trunk space ; uncomfortable seats ;
>> terrible rear wheel drive traction ; etc
>> I can't think of a single plus that I could grant it.
>
> $450
>>
>> One winter morning, I was spinning on a patch of snow in the
>> parking lot when a nice guy offered a push - he put one hand on the
>> drivers door handle and his other hand grabbed the rear fender well -
>> and gave a good heave-ho - he apologized as he stood there with
>> a good chunk of fender in his hand - I thanked him for the help and
>> said don't worry about it .. you can keep that .. :-) true story.
>>
>> Drove it about 2 years and gladly scrapped it.
>> Car-Of-The-Year ! yeah right.
>
> I only had my Mustang II for three years until the body rotted out so
> badly it couldn't be driven.
>

Ford liked to dress up other model cars and call them the Mustang. When
they turned the Pinto into a Mustang it was a bad move.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> on Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:07:53 -0500 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:
>On 4/26/2021 7:53 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:25:19 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:50:36 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:01:38 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:52:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/25/2021 8:42 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:07:12 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Snip
>>>>>>>> Between 1900 and 1975 the US managed to invent and bring into
>>>>>>>> production the airplane, nuclear power, computers, and the capability
>>>>>>>> to land on the Moon.
>>>>>>> With the people born in the '30 and '40s. The millenials live in
>>>>>>> mommy's basement and play X-Box. We were talking about 60 the last 60
>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>> Well in all fairness, vehicles built in the US were pieces of crap from
>>>>>> 72~2000. Progressively getting better year by year. Emission systems
>>>>>> that hardly worked and wasted fuel was not healthier for the earth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems this is when the Japanese entered our market and pretty much
>>>>>> showed us how a vehicle should be built.

The Japanese had just followed the smart ideas coming out of the
US ... to bad American car companies hadn't adopted them.

>>>>> Glad you only went back to 1972 !
>>>>> 1971 MotorTrend's Car Of The Year
>>>>> Chevy Vega ... :-)
>>>> Which was actually a pretty nice car until it rusted away. My Dad had
>>>> one--he really enjoyed driving it.
>>> I had one as a teenager - my second car - it was ~ 4 years old
>>> & I paid $ 450. for it - I needed wheels fast for a job transfer -
>>> - the rust-repairs were already failing badly ;
>>> it burned oil ; noisy ; no trunk space ; uncomfortable seats ;
>>> terrible rear wheel drive traction ; etc
>>> I can't think of a single plus that I could grant it.
>>
>> $450

Which was still a lot of money in the seventies.

Friends story was of buying a car for $235 "because of a
vibration", which turned out to be the result of a bubble on the
inside of one of the front tires. Drove it, sold to friend, engine
seized, took it back. Had it parked at his dad's station where he
work. Guy comes in the station, wonders if the car might be for sale.
"Yeah, but the engine's shot". Guy just wants it for a restoration.
"So what do you want to offer for it?
$650
"That's fair."

>>> One winter morning, I was spinning on a patch of snow in the
>>> parking lot when a nice guy offered a push - he put one hand on the
>>> drivers door handle and his other hand grabbed the rear fender well -
>>> and gave a good heave-ho - he apologized as he stood there with
>>> a good chunk of fender in his hand - I thanked him for the help and
>>> said don't worry about it .. you can keep that .. :-) true story.
>>>
>>> Drove it about 2 years and gladly scrapped it.
>>> Car-Of-The-Year ! yeah right.

Hey, it lasted more than a year, what's yer beef?
>> I only had my Mustang II for three years until the body rotted out so
>> badly it couldn't be driven.
>Ford liked to dress up other model cars and call them the Mustang. When
>they turned the Pinto into a Mustang it was a bad move.

Had a friend with a Shelby Mustang. She called it "Mouse" because
it squeaked. Even at a 105.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

>
>>>>>> Glad you only went back to 1972 !
>>>>>> 1971 MotorTrend's Car Of The Year
>>>>>> Chevy Vega ... :-)
>>>>> Which was actually a pretty nice car until it rusted away. My Dad had
>>>>> one--he really enjoyed driving it.
>>>> I had one as a teenager - my second car - it was ~ 4 years old
>>>> & I paid $ 450. for it - I needed wheels fast for a job transfer -
>>>> - the rust-repairs were already failing badly ;
>>>> it burned oil ; noisy ; no trunk space ; uncomfortable seats ;
>>>> terrible rear wheel drive traction ; etc
>>>> I can't think of a single plus that I could grant it.
>>>
>>> $450
>
>Which was still a lot of money in the seventies.
>

Nope. Not for a fully certified car in Niagara Falls
in 1975. It was as cheap-as-it-goes - legally.
John T.

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 19:26:27 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> on Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:07:53 -0500 typed
>in rec.woodworking the following:
>>On 4/26/2021 7:53 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:25:19 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:50:36 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:01:38 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:52:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/25/2021 8:42 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:07:12 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Snip
>>>>>>>>> Between 1900 and 1975 the US managed to invent and bring into
>>>>>>>>> production the airplane, nuclear power, computers, and the capability
>>>>>>>>> to land on the Moon.
>>>>>>>> With the people born in the '30 and '40s. The millenials live in
>>>>>>>> mommy's basement and play X-Box. We were talking about 60 the last 60
>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>> Well in all fairness, vehicles built in the US were pieces of crap from
>>>>>>> 72~2000. Progressively getting better year by year. Emission systems
>>>>>>> that hardly worked and wasted fuel was not healthier for the earth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems this is when the Japanese entered our market and pretty much
>>>>>>> showed us how a vehicle should be built.
>
> The Japanese had just followed the smart ideas coming out of the
>US ... to bad American car companies hadn't adopted them.
>
>>>>>> Glad you only went back to 1972 !
>>>>>> 1971 MotorTrend's Car Of The Year
>>>>>> Chevy Vega ... :-)
>>>>> Which was actually a pretty nice car until it rusted away. My Dad had
>>>>> one--he really enjoyed driving it.
>>>> I had one as a teenager - my second car - it was ~ 4 years old
>>>> & I paid $ 450. for it - I needed wheels fast for a job transfer -
>>>> - the rust-repairs were already failing badly ;
>>>> it burned oil ; noisy ; no trunk space ; uncomfortable seats ;
>>>> terrible rear wheel drive traction ; etc
>>>> I can't think of a single plus that I could grant it.
>>>
>>> $450
>
> Which was still a lot of money in the seventies.
>
> Friends story was of buying a car for $235 "because of a
>vibration", which turned out to be the result of a bubble on the
>inside of one of the front tires. Drove it, sold to friend, engine
>seized, took it back. Had it parked at his dad's station where he
>work. Guy comes in the station, wonders if the car might be for sale.
>"Yeah, but the engine's shot". Guy just wants it for a restoration.
>"So what do you want to offer for it?
>$650
>"That's fair."
>
>>>> One winter morning, I was spinning on a patch of snow in the
>>>> parking lot when a nice guy offered a push - he put one hand on the
>>>> drivers door handle and his other hand grabbed the rear fender well -
>>>> and gave a good heave-ho - he apologized as he stood there with
>>>> a good chunk of fender in his hand - I thanked him for the help and
>>>> said don't worry about it .. you can keep that .. :-) true story.
>>>>
>>>> Drove it about 2 years and gladly scrapped it.
>>>> Car-Of-The-Year ! yeah right.
>
> Hey, it lasted more than a year, what's yer beef?
>>> I only had my Mustang II for three years until the body rotted out so
>>> badly it couldn't be driven.
>>Ford liked to dress up other model cars and call them the Mustang. When
>>they turned the Pinto into a Mustang it was a bad move.
>
> Had a friend with a Shelby Mustang. She called it "Mouse" because
>it squeaked. Even at a 105.
In
'68 I bought a '61 Mini for $60. I likely spent $100 in repairs -
frove it for a year and a bit and sold it for something like $250.
Bought a '63 Valiant sedan for $300 with a fresh paint job. Drove it
for about a year and a half anf bought a '69 Dart (in 1971) for $1800.
I sold it in 1972 when I was leaving for Africa. Picked up a '65
Rambler Classic for $50 to tide me over 'till I left - Dad sold it for
me for $75 after I was gone.

Cars from the sixties were better than from the '70s.
When I came back I bought a '72 Colt (in '75) Ended up trading it to
my younger brother for Dad's old '57 Fargo pickup truck - I think I
came out ahead on that deal

The Vega was, like many of GM's small car attempts, a good idea very
poorly executed - you'd swear they purposely sabotaged them to be able
to sell their bigger junk.

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 22:59:46 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:

>
>>
>>>>>>> Glad you only went back to 1972 !
>>>>>>> 1971 MotorTrend's Car Of The Year
>>>>>>> Chevy Vega ... :-)
>>>>>> Which was actually a pretty nice car until it rusted away. My Dad had
>>>>>> one--he really enjoyed driving it.
>>>>> I had one as a teenager - my second car - it was ~ 4 years old
>>>>> & I paid $ 450. for it - I needed wheels fast for a job transfer -
>>>>> - the rust-repairs were already failing badly ;
>>>>> it burned oil ; noisy ; no trunk space ; uncomfortable seats ;
>>>>> terrible rear wheel drive traction ; etc
>>>>> I can't think of a single plus that I could grant it.
>>>>
>>>> $450
>>
>>Which was still a lot of money in the seventies.
>>
>
>Nope. Not for a fully certified car in Niagara Falls
> in 1975. It was as cheap-as-it-goes - legally.
> John T.
From what I remember anything less than $750 was a "project" when I
got home in '75.

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 19:26:27 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> on Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:07:53 -0500 typed
>in rec.woodworking the following:
>>On 4/26/2021 7:53 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:25:19 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:50:36 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:01:38 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:52:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/25/2021 8:42 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:07:12 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Snip
>>>>>>>>> Between 1900 and 1975 the US managed to invent and bring into
>>>>>>>>> production the airplane, nuclear power, computers, and the capability
>>>>>>>>> to land on the Moon.
>>>>>>>> With the people born in the '30 and '40s. The millenials live in
>>>>>>>> mommy's basement and play X-Box. We were talking about 60 the last 60
>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>> Well in all fairness, vehicles built in the US were pieces of crap from
>>>>>>> 72~2000. Progressively getting better year by year. Emission systems
>>>>>>> that hardly worked and wasted fuel was not healthier for the earth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems this is when the Japanese entered our market and pretty much
>>>>>>> showed us how a vehicle should be built.
>
> The Japanese had just followed the smart ideas coming out of the
>US ... to bad American car companies hadn't adopted them.

Well yeah, because those ideas never work in the US. I went through
an example of that at a PPOE. The management jumped on the "Toyota
Production System" and gave all kinds of trainings and started using
words like "Kanban" and "Gemba". They even got an award for it (a US
based award named after a Japanese who don't get no respect in Japan).
I finally gave up on the company's training and started reading up on
the Toyota Production System from the people who actually created and
ran it. Well, what we were doing wasn't anything like the Toyota
Production System. And after a few years in which their
"improvements" didn't improve anything they jumped on the next flashy
thing that some consultand dangled in front of them and then pretended
to implement that.

>>>>>> Glad you only went back to 1972 !
>>>>>> 1971 MotorTrend's Car Of The Year
>>>>>> Chevy Vega ... :-)
>>>>> Which was actually a pretty nice car until it rusted away. My Dad had
>>>>> one--he really enjoyed driving it.
>>>> I had one as a teenager - my second car - it was ~ 4 years old
>>>> & I paid $ 450. for it - I needed wheels fast for a job transfer -
>>>> - the rust-repairs were already failing badly ;
>>>> it burned oil ; noisy ; no trunk space ; uncomfortable seats ;
>>>> terrible rear wheel drive traction ; etc
>>>> I can't think of a single plus that I could grant it.
>>>
>>> $450
>
> Which was still a lot of money in the seventies.
>
> Friends story was of buying a car for $235 "because of a
>vibration", which turned out to be the result of a bubble on the
>inside of one of the front tires. Drove it, sold to friend, engine
>seized, took it back. Had it parked at his dad's station where he
>work. Guy comes in the station, wonders if the car might be for sale.
>"Yeah, but the engine's shot". Guy just wants it for a restoration.
>"So what do you want to offer for it?
>$650
>"That's fair."
>
>>>> One winter morning, I was spinning on a patch of snow in the
>>>> parking lot when a nice guy offered a push - he put one hand on the
>>>> drivers door handle and his other hand grabbed the rear fender well -
>>>> and gave a good heave-ho - he apologized as he stood there with
>>>> a good chunk of fender in his hand - I thanked him for the help and
>>>> said don't worry about it .. you can keep that .. :-) true story.
>>>>
>>>> Drove it about 2 years and gladly scrapped it.
>>>> Car-Of-The-Year ! yeah right.
>
> Hey, it lasted more than a year, what's yer beef?
>>> I only had my Mustang II for three years until the body rotted out so
>>> badly it couldn't be driven.
>>Ford liked to dress up other model cars and call them the Mustang. When
>>they turned the Pinto into a Mustang it was a bad move.
>
> Had a friend with a Shelby Mustang. She called it "Mouse" because
>it squeaked. Even at a 105.

And now we have the electric "crossover" that's called a Mustang. Ford
never learns. I remember when the T-Bird was something special, then
it went through a period in which it was "just a car" and now it's
dead. On the other hand GM never lost focus on the Corvette and it's
still going strong.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 06:05:17 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 19:26:27 -0700, pyotr filipivich
><phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> on Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:07:53 -0500 typed
>>in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>On 4/26/2021 7:53 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:25:19 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:50:36 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:01:38 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:52:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/25/2021 8:42 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:07:12 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>> Snip
>>>>>>>>>> Between 1900 and 1975 the US managed to invent and bring into
>>>>>>>>>> production the airplane, nuclear power, computers, and the capability
>>>>>>>>>> to land on the Moon.
>>>>>>>>> With the people born in the '30 and '40s. The millenials live in
>>>>>>>>> mommy's basement and play X-Box. We were talking about 60 the last 60
>>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>> Well in all fairness, vehicles built in the US were pieces of crap from
>>>>>>>> 72~2000. Progressively getting better year by year. Emission systems
>>>>>>>> that hardly worked and wasted fuel was not healthier for the earth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Seems this is when the Japanese entered our market and pretty much
>>>>>>>> showed us how a vehicle should be built.
>>
>> The Japanese had just followed the smart ideas coming out of the
>>US ... to bad American car companies hadn't adopted them.
>
>Well yeah, because those ideas never work in the US. I went through
>an example of that at a PPOE. The management jumped on the "Toyota
>Production System" and gave all kinds of trainings and started using
>words like "Kanban" and "Gemba". They even got an award for it (a US
>based award named after a Japanese who don't get no respect in Japan).
>I finally gave up on the company's training and started reading up on
>the Toyota Production System from the people who actually created and
>ran it. Well, what we were doing wasn't anything like the Toyota
>Production System. And after a few years in which their
>"improvements" didn't improve anything they jumped on the next flashy
>thing that some consultand dangled in front of them and then pretended
>to implement that.

ISO9001
Zero Defect
PPM
<rinse repeat>

>>>>>>> Glad you only went back to 1972 !
>>>>>>> 1971 MotorTrend's Car Of The Year
>>>>>>> Chevy Vega ... :-)
>>>>>> Which was actually a pretty nice car until it rusted away. My Dad had
>>>>>> one--he really enjoyed driving it.
>>>>> I had one as a teenager - my second car - it was ~ 4 years old
>>>>> & I paid $ 450. for it - I needed wheels fast for a job transfer -
>>>>> - the rust-repairs were already failing badly ;
>>>>> it burned oil ; noisy ; no trunk space ; uncomfortable seats ;
>>>>> terrible rear wheel drive traction ; etc
>>>>> I can't think of a single plus that I could grant it.
>>>>
>>>> $450
>>
>> Which was still a lot of money in the seventies.
>>
>> Friends story was of buying a car for $235 "because of a
>>vibration", which turned out to be the result of a bubble on the
>>inside of one of the front tires. Drove it, sold to friend, engine
>>seized, took it back. Had it parked at his dad's station where he
>>work. Guy comes in the station, wonders if the car might be for sale.
>>"Yeah, but the engine's shot". Guy just wants it for a restoration.
>>"So what do you want to offer for it?
>>$650
>>"That's fair."
>>
>>>>> One winter morning, I was spinning on a patch of snow in the
>>>>> parking lot when a nice guy offered a push - he put one hand on the
>>>>> drivers door handle and his other hand grabbed the rear fender well -
>>>>> and gave a good heave-ho - he apologized as he stood there with
>>>>> a good chunk of fender in his hand - I thanked him for the help and
>>>>> said don't worry about it .. you can keep that .. :-) true story.
>>>>>
>>>>> Drove it about 2 years and gladly scrapped it.
>>>>> Car-Of-The-Year ! yeah right.
>>
>> Hey, it lasted more than a year, what's yer beef?
>>>> I only had my Mustang II for three years until the body rotted out so
>>>> badly it couldn't be driven.
>>>Ford liked to dress up other model cars and call them the Mustang. When
>>>they turned the Pinto into a Mustang it was a bad move.
>>
>> Had a friend with a Shelby Mustang. She called it "Mouse" because
>>it squeaked. Even at a 105.
>
>And now we have the electric "crossover" that's called a Mustang. Ford
>never learns. I remember when the T-Bird was something special, then
>it went through a period in which it was "just a car" and now it's
>dead. On the other hand GM never lost focus on the Corvette and it's
>still going strong.

SWMBO had a '14 Mustang which was a nice car, which she traded in a
'19 (I told her "now or never"). That's a nice car. She looked at
the electric mustang and laughed. "That's not a Mustang!" I's bug
ugly, for one.

The mustang started as a really nice car, which grew into a monster,
into a sissy, then dead. They did a really good job of bring back the
retro-Mustang and improved it a lot over the decade or so. Then...

OTOH, the Thunderbird was a HOT car, which grew into a monster, then
poof. The retro version skipped the retro phase and went straight to
bug ugly. They just can't leave well enough alone.

Well, Ford still has the F150 (I wonder where the F100 went?).

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> on Wed, 28 Apr 2021 06:05:17
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 19:26:27 -0700, pyotr filipivich
><phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> on Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:07:53 -0500 typed
>>in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>On 4/26/2021 7:53 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:25:19 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:50:36 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:01:38 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:52:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/25/2021 8:42 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:07:12 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>> Snip
>>>>>>>>>> Between 1900 and 1975 the US managed to invent and bring into
>>>>>>>>>> production the airplane, nuclear power, computers, and the capability
>>>>>>>>>> to land on the Moon.
>>>>>>>>> With the people born in the '30 and '40s. The millenials live in
>>>>>>>>> mommy's basement and play X-Box. We were talking about 60 the last 60
>>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>> Well in all fairness, vehicles built in the US were pieces of crap from
>>>>>>>> 72~2000. Progressively getting better year by year. Emission systems
>>>>>>>> that hardly worked and wasted fuel was not healthier for the earth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Seems this is when the Japanese entered our market and pretty much
>>>>>>>> showed us how a vehicle should be built.
>>
>> The Japanese had just followed the smart ideas coming out of the
>>US ... to bad American car companies hadn't adopted them.
>
>Well yeah, because those ideas never work in the US. I went through
>an example of that at a PPOE. The management jumped on the "Toyota
>Production System" and gave all kinds of trainings and started using
>words like "Kanban" and "Gemba". They even got an award for it (a US
>based award named after a Japanese who don't get no respect in Japan).
>I finally gave up on the company's training and started reading up on
>the Toyota Production System from the people who actually created and
>ran it. Well, what we were doing wasn't anything like the Toyota
>Production System. And after a few years in which their
>"improvements" didn't improve anything they jumped on the next flashy
>thing that some consultand dangled in front of them and then pretended
>to implement that.

Operative term "flashy thing". Everybody is looking for the magic
pill which will solve the problem if not in this quarter, then by the
time for the annual report.

When I ran into the terms "lean manufacturing" I was retraining in
tech school I kept thinking "I've heard this before, but where?" It
quickly came to me, "Ach Ja! 'Onkel Jan's Werkstat!' and all those
bossisms":
if you haven't got time to do it right, when will you have time to
fix it?
if you haven't got time to put it away, what makes you feel you'll
have time to look for it?
Every place with it's thing, every thing with it's place.
Well begun is half done.
Etc.

Others: "Only Customers pay wages. The Company is here to collect
my wages from the customer. But paychecks can't come in until good
product ship."
"You can't make scrap fast enough to show a profit."

"Lean" like 5S, like just about everything, is a "process". not a
quick fix, but a means to an end. A series of little things which can
make production "easier". As I said of a new layout "every step I
take away from the machine (to get the parts to load into the machine)
is another step closer to the coffeepot."
It boils down to "work smart, not hard." But what is "smart"?
Depends on the situation.

Again,we're back to "how much planning is enough?" The proverb is
old, "Well begun is half done". Carlin got a certain amount of static
for his meticulous arraying of the parts to be worked on before he
started. Until it was noticed that his over all run times were well
within 'spec'. And that he had the eerie ability to when all were
laid out, to spot the out of tolerance part before he started.
I figured out that if I lined up the "in" parts and the out parts,
I could "see" how many to go, how many done, and have a ready answer
to "How much longer?" when the foreman asked. (My record is when I
got things set up "just so" and was able to get two work orders done
in 6 hours, when the schedule called for 12. Yeah me.)

I really need to cut back on the coffee.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
I shall now ask my colleague to tell you how good I am at delegating.

krw@notreal.com on Wed, 28 Apr 2021 13:13:43 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
>
>>> The Japanese had just followed the smart ideas coming out of the
>>>US ... to bad American car companies hadn't adopted them.
>>
>>Well yeah, because those ideas never work in the US. I went through
>>an example of that at a PPOE. The management jumped on the "Toyota
>>Production System" and gave all kinds of trainings and started using
>>words like "Kanban" and "Gemba". They even got an award for it (a US
>>based award named after a Japanese who don't get no respect in Japan).
>>I finally gave up on the company's training and started reading up on
>>the Toyota Production System from the people who actually created and
>>ran it. Well, what we were doing wasn't anything like the Toyota
>>Production System. And after a few years in which their
>>"improvements" didn't improve anything they jumped on the next flashy
>>thing that some consultand dangled in front of them and then pretended
>>to implement that.
>
>ISO9001
>Zero Defect
>PPM
><rinse repeat>

I got an assignment as The Stocker. I was to go round the floor,
pick up the empty parts bins, refill them and take them back. The
idea being that the guys on the floor would not have to go looking for
parts {nuts, bolts, flanges, decals, etc}. "Lean Manufacturing /
Five5. But I got let go after two days [remember, temp agency], then
called back, and even offered to let me come in an hour later. First
time I ever got "recruited".
Seems there had been a great deal of outrage on the floor "we
finally get someone who 'gets it' and you got ride of him!" Yeah me.
Then someone in manglement got the Brilliant Idea to have the
suppliers stock their part of the supply room. Fair enough. But then
came the idea that those bins needed to be consolidated elsewhere to
make restocking easier. Excellent idea! Lets have me check _three_
places for parts!
"And then they came up short in the orders, either bad scheduling
or lack of sale, what ever." and that was the end of that assignment.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

krw@notreal.com on Wed, 28 Apr 2021 13:13:43 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
>
>>> Hey, it lasted more than a year, what's yer beef?
>>>>> I only had my Mustang II for three years until the body rotted out so
>>>>> badly it couldn't be driven.
>>>>Ford liked to dress up other model cars and call them the Mustang. When
>>>>they turned the Pinto into a Mustang it was a bad move.
>>>
>>> Had a friend with a Shelby Mustang. She called it "Mouse" because
>>>it squeaked. Even at a 105.
>>
>>And now we have the electric "crossover" that's called a Mustang. Ford
>>never learns. I remember when the T-Bird was something special, then
>>it went through a period in which it was "just a car" and now it's
>>dead. On the other hand GM never lost focus on the Corvette and it's
>>still going strong.
>
>SWMBO had a '14 Mustang which was a nice car, which she traded in a
>'19 (I told her "now or never"). That's a nice car. She looked at
>the electric mustang and laughed. "That's not a Mustang!" I's bug
>ugly, for one.

After the success of the "Prowler" I repeated: Ford should bring
back the "sheet metal" for the 66-68 Mustang, and put 40 (fifty) years
of actual technology and material improvement underneath.
>
>The mustang started as a really nice car, which grew into a monster,
>into a sissy, then dead. They did a really good job of bring back the
>retro-Mustang and improved it a lot over the decade or so. Then...
>
>OTOH, the Thunderbird was a HOT car, which grew into a monster, then
>poof. The retro version skipped the retro phase and went straight to
>bug ugly. They just can't leave well enough alone.
>
>Well, Ford still has the F150 (I wonder where the F100 went?).

Me too. I also wonder about getting a Truck, Pickup, One Each"
which does not have all the bells, whistles, doodads, dual overhead
windshield wipers knobs, chromed twin muffler bearings, in cab movie
theatre, and a turntable for the stereo.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

>krw@notreal.com on Wed, 28 Apr 2021 13:13:43 -0400 typed in
>rec.woodworking the following:

>>Well, Ford still has the F150 (I wonder where the F100 went?).

Believe that the F100 became the Ranger, which brings me to my former
2019 Ranger. It got totaled, was behind a septic pumper truck, at a
stop sign on a down hill approach. the truck back into me sitting
still.

When the intial repair estimate was $29,500 (Blue truck value $32k) I
said total it. So after trying to get a new Ranger through the dealer,
via trades from other dealers bought a F150.

On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 08:24:54 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

>krw@notreal.com on Wed, 28 Apr 2021 13:13:43 -0400 typed in
>rec.woodworking the following:
>>
>>>> Hey, it lasted more than a year, what's yer beef?
>>>>>> I only had my Mustang II for three years until the body rotted out so
>>>>>> badly it couldn't be driven.
>>>>>Ford liked to dress up other model cars and call them the Mustang. When
>>>>>they turned the Pinto into a Mustang it was a bad move.
>>>>
>>>> Had a friend with a Shelby Mustang. She called it "Mouse" because
>>>>it squeaked. Even at a 105.
>>>
>>>And now we have the electric "crossover" that's called a Mustang. Ford
>>>never learns. I remember when the T-Bird was something special, then
>>>it went through a period in which it was "just a car" and now it's
>>>dead. On the other hand GM never lost focus on the Corvette and it's
>>>still going strong.
>>
>>SWMBO had a '14 Mustang which was a nice car, which she traded in a
>>'19 (I told her "now or never"). That's a nice car. She looked at
>>the electric mustang and laughed. "That's not a Mustang!" I's bug
>>ugly, for one.
>
> After the success of the "Prowler" I repeated: Ford should bring
>back the "sheet metal" for the 66-68 Mustang, and put 40 (fifty) years
>of actual technology and material improvement underneath.

They kind of did that. They can't make it look identical because they
have a bunch of new regulations they have to comply with, and some of
those affect exterior appearance.

>>The mustang started as a really nice car, which grew into a monster,
>>into a sissy, then dead. They did a really good job of bring back the
>>retro-Mustang and improved it a lot over the decade or so. Then...
>>
>>OTOH, the Thunderbird was a HOT car, which grew into a monster, then
>>poof. The retro version skipped the retro phase and went straight to
>>bug ugly. They just can't leave well enough alone.
>>
>>Well, Ford still has the F150 (I wonder where the F100 went?).
>
> Me too. I also wonder about getting a Truck, Pickup, One Each"
>which does not have all the bells, whistles, doodads, dual overhead
>windshield wipers knobs, chromed twin muffler bearings, in cab movie
>theatre, and a turntable for the stereo.

I'm toying with the idea of getting a Honda Acty. Google it. It's
cute as hell, tiny, and has a bed bigger than a short-bed F-150 (and
the bed converts into a flatbed).

Saw one on the street the other day and said "WTF is _that_" so I
looked it up. Japan-only, can import to the US after 25 years.

Not a lot of load but I don't really need a lot of load.

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 08:24:54 -0700, pyotr filipivich
><phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>krw@notreal.com on Wed, 28 Apr 2021 13:13:43 -0400 typed in
>>rec.woodworking the following:
>>>
>>>>> Hey, it lasted more than a year, what's yer beef?
>>>>>>> I only had my Mustang II for three years until the body rotted out so
>>>>>>> badly it couldn't be driven.
>>>>>>Ford liked to dress up other model cars and call them the Mustang. When
>>>>>>they turned the Pinto into a Mustang it was a bad move.
>>>>>
>>>>> Had a friend with a Shelby Mustang. She called it "Mouse" because
>>>>>it squeaked. Even at a 105.
>>>>
>>>>And now we have the electric "crossover" that's called a Mustang. Ford
>>>>never learns. I remember when the T-Bird was something special, then
>>>>it went through a period in which it was "just a car" and now it's
>>>>dead. On the other hand GM never lost focus on the Corvette and it's
>>>>still going strong.
>>>
>>>SWMBO had a '14 Mustang which was a nice car, which she traded in a
>>>'19 (I told her "now or never"). That's a nice car. She looked at
>>>the electric mustang and laughed. "That's not a Mustang!" I's bug
>>>ugly, for one.
>>
>> After the success of the "Prowler" I repeated: Ford should bring
>>back the "sheet metal" for the 66-68 Mustang, and put 40 (fifty) years
>>of actual technology and material improvement underneath.
>
>They kind of did that. They can't make it look identical because they
>have a bunch of new regulations they have to comply with, and some of
>those affect exterior appearance.
>
>>>The mustang started as a really nice car, which grew into a monster,
>>>into a sissy, then dead. They did a really good job of bring back the
>>>retro-Mustang and improved it a lot over the decade or so. Then...
>>>
>>>OTOH, the Thunderbird was a HOT car, which grew into a monster, then
>>>poof. The retro version skipped the retro phase and went straight to
>>>bug ugly. They just can't leave well enough alone.
>>>
>>>Well, Ford still has the F150 (I wonder where the F100 went?).
>>
>> Me too. I also wonder about getting a Truck, Pickup, One Each"
>>which does not have all the bells, whistles, doodads, dual overhead
>>windshield wipers knobs, chromed twin muffler bearings, in cab movie
>>theatre, and a turntable for the stereo.
>
>I'm toying with the idea of getting a Honda Acty. Google it. It's
>cute as hell, tiny, and has a bed bigger than a short-bed F-150 (and
>the bed converts into a flatbed).

While waiting for an oil-change, I walked over to the neighboring
used-car lot and spotted a Corvair Rampside (something I'd never seen).

Side-loading bed with a built-in ramp (the bed is lower to the
ground than modern pickups).

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/1961-64-chevrolet-corvair-rampside-and-loadside

On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 08:24:54 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> on Wed, 28 Apr 2021 06:05:17
>-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 19:26:27 -0700, pyotr filipivich
>><phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> on Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:07:53 -0500 typed
>>>in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>>On 4/26/2021 7:53 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:25:19 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:50:36 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:01:38 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:52:14 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/25/2021 8:42 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:07:12 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>> Snip
>>>>>>>>>>> Between 1900 and 1975 the US managed to invent and bring into
>>>>>>>>>>> production the airplane, nuclear power, computers, and the capability
>>>>>>>>>>> to land on the Moon.
>>>>>>>>>> With the people born in the '30 and '40s. The millenials live in
>>>>>>>>>> mommy's basement and play X-Box. We were talking about 60 the last 60
>>>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>>> Well in all fairness, vehicles built in the US were pieces of crap from
>>>>>>>>> 72~2000. Progressively getting better year by year. Emission systems
>>>>>>>>> that hardly worked and wasted fuel was not healthier for the earth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seems this is when the Japanese entered our market and pretty much
>>>>>>>>> showed us how a vehicle should be built.
>>>
>>> The Japanese had just followed the smart ideas coming out of the
>>>US ... to bad American car companies hadn't adopted them.
>>
>>Well yeah, because those ideas never work in the US. I went through
>>an example of that at a PPOE. The management jumped on the "Toyota
>>Production System" and gave all kinds of trainings and started using
>>words like "Kanban" and "Gemba". They even got an award for it (a US
>>based award named after a Japanese who don't get no respect in Japan).
>>I finally gave up on the company's training and started reading up on
>>the Toyota Production System from the people who actually created and
>>ran it. Well, what we were doing wasn't anything like the Toyota
>>Production System. And after a few years in which their
>>"improvements" didn't improve anything they jumped on the next flashy
>>thing that some consultand dangled in front of them and then pretended
>>to implement that.
>
> Operative term "flashy thing". Everybody is looking for the magic
>pill which will solve the problem if not in this quarter, then by the
>time for the annual report.

Worse. They only wanted to make their boss look like they were doing
something, without the work of actually doing something.
>
> When I ran into the terms "lean manufacturing" I was retraining in
>tech school I kept thinking "I've heard this before, but where?" It
>quickly came to me, "Ach Ja! 'Onkel Jan's Werkstat!' and all those
>bossisms":
> if you haven't got time to do it right, when will you have time to
>fix it?
> if you haven't got time to put it away, what makes you feel you'll
>have time to look for it?
> Every place with it's thing, every thing with it's place.
> Well begun is half done.
> Etc.
Yep. But the hand gets slapped every time sanity is spoken.

> Others: "Only Customers pay wages. The Company is here to collect
>my wages from the customer. But paychecks can't come in until good
>product ship."

In the long term, there is no other way to operate.

> "You can't make scrap fast enough to show a profit."
>
> "Lean" like 5S, like just about everything, is a "process". not a
>quick fix, but a means to an end. A series of little things which can
>make production "easier". As I said of a new layout "every step I
>take away from the machine (to get the parts to load into the machine)
>is another step closer to the coffeepot."
> It boils down to "work smart, not hard." But what is "smart"?
>Depends on the situation.

It's another way of saying "Laziness is the mother of invention." It's
really true but it more often turns into "look busy".

> Again,we're back to "how much planning is enough?" The proverb is
>old, "Well begun is half done". Carlin got a certain amount of static
>for his meticulous arraying of the parts to be worked on before he
>started. Until it was noticed that his over all run times were well
>within 'spec'. And that he had the eerie ability to when all were
>laid out, to spot the out of tolerance part before he started.
> I figured out that if I lined up the "in" parts and the out parts,
>I could "see" how many to go, how many done, and have a ready answer
>to "How much longer?" when the foreman asked. (My record is when I
>got things set up "just so" and was able to get two work orders done
>in 6 hours, when the schedule called for 12. Yeah me.)

Gotta get rid of that guy. He's making the rest of us look bad.
>
> I really need to cut back on the coffee.

Nothing but decaf here. (Heart doesn't like caffiene)

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> on Thu, 29 Apr 2021 12:02:35
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>
>>>Well, Ford still has the F150 (I wonder where the F100 went?).
>>
>> Me too. I also wonder about getting a Truck, Pickup, One Each"
>>which does not have all the bells, whistles, doodads, dual overhead
>>windshield wipers knobs, chromed twin muffler bearings, in cab movie
>>theatre, and a turntable for the stereo.
>
>I'm toying with the idea of getting a Honda Acty. Google it. It's
>cute as hell, tiny, and has a bed bigger than a short-bed F-150 (and
>the bed converts into a flatbed).
>
>Saw one on the street the other day and said "WTF is _that_" so I
>looked it up. Japan-only, can import to the US after 25 years.

Hmmm, will look it up.
>
>Not a lot of load but I don't really need a lot of load.

What I want is a "beater" - something I can haul stuff home from
the store, the side of the road or to the dump, the second hand store,
or the recycle.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 15:44:08 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> on Thu, 29 Apr 2021 12:02:35
>-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>
>>>>Well, Ford still has the F150 (I wonder where the F100 went?).
>>>
>>> Me too. I also wonder about getting a Truck, Pickup, One Each"
>>>which does not have all the bells, whistles, doodads, dual overhead
>>>windshield wipers knobs, chromed twin muffler bearings, in cab movie
>>>theatre, and a turntable for the stereo.
>>
>>I'm toying with the idea of getting a Honda Acty. Google it. It's
>>cute as hell, tiny, and has a bed bigger than a short-bed F-150 (and
>>the bed converts into a flatbed).
>>
>>Saw one on the street the other day and said "WTF is _that_" so I
>>looked it up. Japan-only, can import to the US after 25 years.
>
> Hmmm, will look it up.
>>
>>Not a lot of load but I don't really need a lot of load.
>
> What I want is a "beater" - something I can haul stuff home from
>the store, the side of the road or to the dump, the second hand store,
>or the recycle.

It's certainly not a beater but that's why I have an F150. I
certainly don't want to pay to register, insure, and house another
vehicle, just to go to the BORG.

On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 15:44:08 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> on Thu, 29 Apr 2021 12:02:35
>-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>
>>>>Well, Ford still has the F150 (I wonder where the F100 went?).
>>>
>>> Me too. I also wonder about getting a Truck, Pickup, One Each"
>>>which does not have all the bells, whistles, doodads, dual overhead
>>>windshield wipers knobs, chromed twin muffler bearings, in cab movie
>>>theatre, and a turntable for the stereo.
>>
>>I'm toying with the idea of getting a Honda Acty. Google it. It's
>>cute as hell, tiny, and has a bed bigger than a short-bed F-150 (and
>>the bed converts into a flatbed).
>>
>>Saw one on the street the other day and said "WTF is _that_" so I
>>looked it up. Japan-only, can import to the US after 25 years.
>
> Hmmm, will look it up.
>>
>>Not a lot of load but I don't really need a lot of load.
>
> What I want is a "beater" - something I can haul stuff home from
>the store, the side of the road or to the dump, the second hand store,
>or the recycle.
Some guys can turn ANYTHING into a "beater" in short order. I do all
of the above with my 25 year old truck but try REALLY HARD not to make
a "beater" out of it!!