I reached (I think) my second demon lair in Gehennom. Now this one
is Mephistopheles' lair (who is still asleep/meditating), but some
of the standard demons' audience had summoned Lolth, another major
demon with HP:175 and who is constantly teleporting away after the
first hit (I suppose I'd need at least enough free turns for 5-6
hits to kill him).

Given their teleport ping-pong and sleep resistance, what would be
the options to keep them close to have a chance to kill them. Right
now I can only think of paralysis - the standard for Slashem - but
I neither know whether that works in this variant nor whether there
are better (or other) sensible options. (That demon attacks with
paralysis, would he be susceptible to it in that case?)

Same questions for the other major demon (unless there's no special
treatment for Mephistopheles necessary).

One other point; I wanted to levelport to the previous dungeon level
to get closer to Lolth and cover the upstairs, but cursed teleport
did not work. Is that always disabled or what are the conditions to
be effective?

Janis

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 9:33:05 PM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> I reached (I think) my second demon lair in Gehennom. Now this one
> is Mephistopheles' lair (who is still asleep/meditating), but some
> of the standard demons' audience had summoned Lolth, another major
> demon with HP:175 and who is constantly teleporting away after the
> first hit (I suppose I'd need at least enough free turns for 5-6
> hits to kill him).
>
> Given their teleport ping-pong and sleep resistance, what would be
> the options to keep them close to have a chance to kill them. Right
> now I can only think of paralysis - the standard for Slashem - but
> I neither know whether that works in this variant nor whether there
> are better (or other) sensible options. (That demon attacks with
> paralysis, would he be susceptible to it in that case?)
>
> Same questions for the other major demon (unless there's no special
> treatment for Mephistopheles necessary).
>
> One other point; I wanted to levelport to the previous dungeon level
> to get closer to Lolth and cover the upstairs, but cursed teleport
> did not work. Is that always disabled or what are the conditions to
> be effective?
>
> Janis

I was going to say to get to the upstairs. I believe demons only teleport
to the upstairs. Also blasting them with anything they have a weakness
to.

Paralysis still works, just wield and 'F'ight them.

Yes. Teleportation of any kind has been removed. Also removed are cursed
potions of gain level.

--

On 26.05.2023 03:52, RecRanger wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 9:33:05 PM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> [ means to kill covetous demons ]
>
> I was going to say to get to the upstairs. I believe demons only teleport
> to the upstairs. Also blasting them with anything they have a weakness
> to.

The problem is, I think, that newer versions/variants have changed the
behavior of scared or severely hit major demons to not only teleport to
the upstairs but also to the downstairs (and probbaly elsewhere, too -
that Lolth demon, for example, teleported to a couple other places).
Or am I mistaken?

I suppose that exploiting their "weakness" means that they suffer from
more damage but not outright kill them? (So that they can still leave
per teleport.)

> Paralysis still works, just wield and 'F'ight them.

Yeah, I suppose that will be it then. I hope paralysis will last long
enough to kill them, since in Slashem I regularly had the effect that
even blessed paralysis did not last long enough to fix (for example)
Demogorgon.

>
> Yes. Teleportation of any kind has been removed. Also removed are cursed
> potions of gain level.

Darn! - This is bad news. - Makes quite some nice tactics more boring.

At least for an instant emergency escape I have some "magic portal to
another branch" artifact that seems to still work.

(BTW, the Eternal Flame artifact candle that I wished for is great
with its passive fire attack which very often is the last straw that
kills the counter-attacker in the first turn.)

Janis

On 26.05.2023 05:38, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> Paralysis still works, just wield and 'F'ight them.
>
> Yeah, I suppose that will be it then. I hope paralysis will last long
> enough to kill them, since in Slashem I regularly had the effect that
> even blessed paralysis did not last long enough to fix (for example)
> Demogorgon.

The Lolth demon hopped around but was always quite close to me. At
some point he didn't want to teleport away and I just killed him
quite quickly.

For Mephistopheles I eventually could hit him with paralysis, and
few turns were only necessary to kill him by melee.

Next possible steps are Vlad's tower and Orcus' town that I found
but not yet begun to explore.

It turned out that the replacement for my lost MR granting armor,
some deep dragon scaled armor, was quite useful in Gehennom. Can
I assume that Vlad's Lifestealer isn't any threat with that gear?

Orcus' level (on the left hand side) seems to be open land instead
of a maze. Is there anything new to consider at that level?

Janis

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 11:50:50 AM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 26.05.2023 05:38, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> >> Paralysis still works, just wield and 'F'ight them.
> >
> > Yeah, I suppose that will be it then. I hope paralysis will last long
> > enough to kill them, since in Slashem I regularly had the effect that
> > even blessed paralysis did not last long enough to fix (for example)
> > Demogorgon.
> The Lolth demon hopped around but was always quite close to me. At
> some point he didn't want to teleport away and I just killed him
> quite quickly.
>
> For Mephistopheles I eventually could hit him with paralysis, and
> few turns were only necessary to kill him by melee.
>
> Next possible steps are Vlad's tower and Orcus' town that I found
> but not yet begun to explore.
>
> It turned out that the replacement for my lost MR granting armor,
> some deep dragon scaled armor, was quite useful in Gehennom. Can
> I assume that Vlad's Lifestealer isn't any threat with that gear?
>
> Orcus' level (on the left hand side) seems to be open land instead
> of a maze. Is there anything new to consider at that level?
>
> Janis

'Tis NetHack! Never assume!

You need drain resistance for Lifestealer. You can get reduced to a
pile of rubble (bones?) fairly quickly if you cannot escape him.

Had a character that went from level mid-20's to single digits rather
quickly because I could not get away from him and all the means
I tried to slow him down failed.

Of course, this was EvilHack. I am sure (?) Hack'EM is the same?

--

On 27.05.2023 20:43, RecRanger wrote:
> On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 11:50:50 AM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 26.05.2023 05:38, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>
>> It turned out that the replacement for my lost MR granting armor,
>> some deep dragon scaled armor, was quite useful in Gehennom. Can
>> I assume that Vlad's Lifestealer isn't any threat with that gear?
>
> 'Tis NetHack! Never assume!

That's why I am asking; to be sure.

>
> You need drain resistance for Lifestealer. You can get reduced to a
> pile of rubble (bones?) fairly quickly if you cannot escape him.

As written I have deep dragon scaled armor, so hopefully effective
drain resistance (IIUC). - My question was therefore whether that
armor suffices, or whether there's only a chance of protection from
level drain, or whether Lifestealer will bypass that protection as
a special artifact ability, or something else maybe.

If drain resistance is perfectly fine then the only difference from
old Vanilla behavior would be - with my current gear - that he might
teleport away instead of staying adjacent until death.

>
> Had a character that went from level mid-20's to single digits rather
> quickly because I could not get away from him and all the means
> I tried to slow him down failed.
>
> Of course, this was EvilHack. I am sure (?) Hack'EM is the same?

That was also my assumption. - But as you say; "Never assume!" :-)

Janis

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 9:00:45 PM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 27.05.2023 20:43, RecRanger wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 11:50:50 AM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> >> On 26.05.2023 05:38, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> >>
> >> It turned out that the replacement for my lost MR granting armor,
> >> some deep dragon scaled armor, was quite useful in Gehennom. Can
> >> I assume that Vlad's Lifestealer isn't any threat with that gear?
> >
> > 'Tis NetHack! Never assume!
>
> That's why I am asking; to be sure.
> >
> > You need drain resistance for Lifestealer. You can get reduced to a
> > pile of rubble (bones?) fairly quickly if you cannot escape him.
> As written I have deep dragon scaled armor, so hopefully effective
> drain resistance (IIUC). - My question was therefore whether that
> armor suffices, or whether there's only a chance of protection from
> level drain, or whether Lifestealer will bypass that protection as
> a special artifact ability, or something else maybe.
>
> If drain resistance is perfectly fine then the only difference from
> old Vanilla behavior would be - with my current gear - that he might
> teleport away instead of staying adjacent until death.
> >
> > Had a character that went from level mid-20's to single digits rather
> > quickly because I could not get away from him and all the means
> > I tried to slow him down failed.
> >
> > Of course, this was EvilHack. I am sure (?) Hack'EM is the same?
> That was also my assumption. - But as you say; "Never assume!" :-)
>
> Janis

You know, Janis, sorry. I should know deep dragon scale mail provides
drain resistance after *years* of playing Slash'EM, but I read your post
"my lost MR granting armor, some deep dragon scaled armor, was quite
useful in Gehennom" as deep dragon conveying MR. I read w/o
thinking.

And, then, to answer the question: deep dragon scale mail will
completely protect. Thankfully, that is not a percentage. Now that I
said that it will be revised in EvilHack. :-D

--

On 28.05.2023 04:59, RecRanger wrote:
>
> You know, Janis, sorry. I should know deep dragon scale mail provides
> drain resistance after *years* of playing Slash'EM, but I read your post
> "my lost MR granting armor, some deep dragon scaled armor, was quite
> useful in Gehennom" as deep dragon conveying MR. I read w/o
> thinking.
>
> And, then, to answer the question: deep dragon scale mail will
> completely protect. Thankfully, that is not a percentage. [...]

Thanks for the confirmation, and sorry for my writing style which is
(I am aware) sometimes confusing.

So Vlad will be my next target...

Janis