https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220929-live-russia-set-to-annex-ukraine-territory

Putin signs decrees paving way for annexation of two
Ukraine regions

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday signed
decrees paving the way for the occupied Ukrainian
regions of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia to be formally
annexed into Russia. The decrees, made public by the
Kremlin, said Putin had recognised the two regions
as independent territories. This is an intermediary
step needed before Putin can go ahead with plans to
announce on Friday that the regions are part of Russia.

.. . .

Well, he SAID he'd do it ...

The "vote" was a semi-sham, though in those particular
areas the majority probably DID want to join with Russia.
What happens to the MINORITY remains to be seen ....

In any case, Putin now has his nice-and-legal progression
of events. Very shortly those areas WILL, legally, be
Russia proper. Not sure if it matters what anybody else
thinks about it.

Oh, this WILL change things for the Ukranian counteroffensive
however. Attacking Ukraine to drive out Russians is one thing
but attacking Russia proper to kill legal Russians ... that
can lead to a whole different level of warfare. Russia DOES
protect what's Russia - it's writ in blood in their history
and culture.

Ya know, all this COULD have been worked out right when the
USSR fell apart. A little re-drawing of lines to better fit
cultural divisions.

On 9/29/22 17:20, 26C.Z968 wrote:
> The "vote" was a semi-sham, though in those particular
>   areas the majority probably DID want to join with Russia.
>   What happens to the MINORITY remains to be seen ....

otoh, if Ukraine gained complete control of those to regions, what would
happen to the MAJORITY? I doubt ethnic Russians and Russian sympathizers
would have a pleasant life. Many Ukrainians aer fond of Stepan
Bandera's brand of national renewal.

On 9/29/22 10:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 9/29/22 17:20, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>> The "vote" was a semi-sham, though in those particular
>>    areas the majority probably DID want to join with Russia.
>>    What happens to the MINORITY remains to be seen ....
>
> otoh, if Ukraine gained complete control of those to regions, what would
> happen to the MAJORITY? I doubt ethnic Russians and Russian sympathizers
> would have a pleasant life.  Many Ukrainians aer fond of Stepan
> Bandera's brand of national renewal.

It was very unpleasant already. First the cultural Ukranians
were mean to the cultural Russians, then after the initial
take-over the roles were reversed. A lot of bad blood there.

If POSSIBLE ... arrange a deal. Those in the area who think
themselves Russian migrate into the new territory and those
who think themselves Ukrainian migrate west. Each faction
ensures their new citizens have what they need - housing,
jobs, maybe a plot of land, the usual necessities.

Unfortunately the instinct to REVENGE may get in the way
of such a logical arrangement. Russians will want to
punish Ukrainians and vice-versa for slights real or
imagined.

Frankly I don't see a good outcome.

On 9/29/22 21:01, 26C.Z968 wrote:
> On 9/29/22 10:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 9/29/22 17:20, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>> The "vote" was a semi-sham, though in those particular
>>>    areas the majority probably DID want to join with Russia.
>>>    What happens to the MINORITY remains to be seen ....
>>
>> otoh, if Ukraine gained complete control of those to regions, what
>> would happen to the MAJORITY? I doubt ethnic Russians and Russian
>> sympathizers would have a pleasant life.  Many Ukrainians aer fond of
>> Stepan Bandera's brand of national renewal.
>
>   It was very unpleasant already. First the cultural Ukranians
>   were mean to the cultural Russians, then after the initial
>   take-over the roles were reversed. A lot of bad blood there.
>
>   If POSSIBLE ... arrange a deal. Those in the area who think
>   themselves Russian migrate into the new territory and those
>   who think themselves Ukrainian migrate west. Each faction
>   ensures their new citizens have what they need - housing,
>   jobs, maybe a plot of land, the usual necessities.
>
>   Unfortunately the instinct to REVENGE may get in the way
>   of such a logical arrangement. Russians will want to
>   punish Ukrainians and vice-versa for slights real or
>   imagined.
>
>   Frankly I don't see a good outcome.

It's another festering sore like the magically created Czechoslovakia.
The Czechs and the Slovaks were not friendly, let alone the rest of the
ethnic minorities. Germany gets all the attention for occupying
Sudetenland but the Hungarians grabbed the Magyar areas in the south and
Poland got Zaolzie.

Most people in the US can't comprehend the centuries old ethnic
hostilities. A well-meaning church group in a small Maine town where I
lived for a while set up ESL classes for displaced southeast Asians.
They overlooked how much Cambodians, Laotians, Vietnamese, Hmong, etc
hate each other.

rbowman wrote on 9/30/2022 11:41 AM:
> On 9/29/22 21:01, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>> On 9/29/22 10:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On 9/29/22 17:20, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>> The "vote" was a semi-sham, though in those particular
>>>>    areas the majority probably DID want to join with Russia.
>>>>    What happens to the MINORITY remains to be seen ....
>>>
>>> otoh, if Ukraine gained complete control of those to regions, what
>>> would happen to the MAJORITY? I doubt ethnic Russians and Russian
>>> sympathizers would have a pleasant life.  Many Ukrainians aer fond
>>> of Stepan Bandera's brand of national renewal.
>>
>>    It was very unpleasant already. First the cultural Ukranians
>>    were mean to the cultural Russians, then after the initial
>>    take-over the roles were reversed. A lot of bad blood there.
>>
>>    If POSSIBLE ... arrange a deal. Those in the area who think
>>    themselves Russian migrate into the new territory and those
>>    who think themselves Ukrainian migrate west. Each faction
>>    ensures their new citizens have what they need - housing,
>>    jobs, maybe a plot of land, the usual necessities.
>>
>>    Unfortunately the instinct to REVENGE may get in the way
>>    of such a logical arrangement. Russians will want to
>>    punish Ukrainians and vice-versa for slights real or
>>    imagined.
>>
>>    Frankly I don't see a good outcome.
>
> It's another festering sore like the magically created Czechoslovakia.
> The Czechs and the Slovaks were not friendly, let alone the rest of
> the ethnic minorities. Germany gets all the attention for occupying
> Sudetenland but the Hungarians grabbed the Magyar areas in the south
> and Poland got Zaolzie.
>
> Most people in the US can't comprehend the centuries old ethnic
> hostilities. A well-meaning church group in a small Maine town where I
> lived for a while set up ESL classes for displaced southeast Asians.
> They overlooked how much Cambodians, Laotians, Vietnamese, Hmong, etc
> hate each other.
>

Their conflict back home was mainly due to competition for land and
resources. Once they are transplanted to this new land of opportunity
they would just put their past hatred behind and coexisted nicely in
this new land.

The only problem are the people who are religious zealots from Abrahamic
countries who carry their religious struggle wherever they go.

People from Southeast Asia are mostly Buddhists or "ancestor
worshipers". They are not inclined to kill for their gods.

On 9/30/22 11:41 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On 9/29/22 21:01, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>> On 9/29/22 10:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On 9/29/22 17:20, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>> The "vote" was a semi-sham, though in those particular
>>>>    areas the majority probably DID want to join with Russia.
>>>>    What happens to the MINORITY remains to be seen ....
>>>
>>> otoh, if Ukraine gained complete control of those to regions, what
>>> would happen to the MAJORITY? I doubt ethnic Russians and Russian
>>> sympathizers would have a pleasant life.  Many Ukrainians aer fond of
>>> Stepan Bandera's brand of national renewal.
>>
>>    It was very unpleasant already. First the cultural Ukranians
>>    were mean to the cultural Russians, then after the initial
>>    take-over the roles were reversed. A lot of bad blood there.
>>
>>    If POSSIBLE ... arrange a deal. Those in the area who think
>>    themselves Russian migrate into the new territory and those
>>    who think themselves Ukrainian migrate west. Each faction
>>    ensures their new citizens have what they need - housing,
>>    jobs, maybe a plot of land, the usual necessities.
>>
>>    Unfortunately the instinct to REVENGE may get in the way
>>    of such a logical arrangement. Russians will want to
>>    punish Ukrainians and vice-versa for slights real or
>>    imagined.
>>
>>    Frankly I don't see a good outcome.
>
> It's another festering sore like the magically created Czechoslovakia.
> The Czechs and the Slovaks were not friendly, let alone the rest of the
> ethnic minorities. Germany gets all the attention for occupying
> Sudetenland but the Hungarians grabbed the Magyar areas in the south and
> Poland got Zaolzie.

Czechoslovakia ultimately worked out pretty well. The
two ethnics weren't at war with each other. I even heard
of some property-swapping deals being done before the
border was declared so ethnics would not be trapped or
homeless in a 'foreign country'. "Trade 'ya my farm-house
for your farm-house" ... smart deal.

> Most people in the US can't comprehend the centuries old ethnic
> hostilities.

That has been a SERIOUS issue when it's come to various
foreign-policy initiatives - esp in the middle-east.
There are factional feuds there going back centuries,
millenia sometimes. They are NOT gonna make nice.

> A well-meaning church group in a small Maine town where I
> lived for a while set up ESL classes for displaced southeast Asians.
> They overlooked how much Cambodians, Laotians, Vietnamese, Hmong, etc
> hate each other.

That's not going to go away, even spending a lifetime in
the USA. Their kids might be more moderate, Americanized,
but those who came over on the boat have set attitudes,
a set history. Things have been said, things have been
done.

On 9/30/22 17:44, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>   That's not going to go away, even spending a lifetime in
>   the USA. Their kids might be more moderate, Americanized,
>   but those who came over on the boat have set attitudes,
>   a set history. Things have been said, things have been
>   done.

For a complicated set of reasons involving General Vang and a CIA guy we
have a thriving Hmong community. It's been a while but programmers from
the Vietnam subsidiary used to come over for a few months to work on
projects. There was no bloodshed. The programmers and I never discussed
politics but they seemed healthy and happy.

About 15 years ago Vang was the center of a federal investigation.
Allegedly he was conspiring to overthrow the Pathet Lao. It came to nothing.

The third and fourth generations are definitely Americanized.