What is the difference between "problem" and "problematic" (when used
as a noun)?

My dictionary doesn't even recognise problematic(al) as a noun, but I
see it quite a lot in academic texts, but there is nothing in the
context to indicate that it is used to mean anything other than
"problem".

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 5/13/2021 4:29 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> What is the difference between "problem" and "problematic" (when used
> as a noun)?

I can't think of a sentence in which "problematic" is used as a noun.
Can you supply one?

> My dictionary doesn't even recognise problematic(al) as a noun, but I
> see it quite a lot in academic texts, but there is nothing in the
> context to indicate that it is used to mean anything other than
> "problem".
>
>

--
Ken

On Thu, 13 May 2021 09:23:41 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com>
wrote:

> On 5/13/2021 4:29 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> > What is the difference between "problem" and "problematic" (when used
> > as a noun)?

> > My dictionary doesn't even recognise problematic(al) as a noun, but I
> > see it quite a lot in academic texts, but there is nothing in the
> > context to indicate that it is used to mean anything other than
> > "problem".

> I can't think of a sentence in which "problematic" is used as a noun.
> Can you supply one?

How about:
"[The artist's] photographs slice lengthwise through the landscape and
by doing so they provoke in the viewer's mind a simple meaning
problematic that derives its strength from two questions:" (The
sentence goes on for quite some time after the colon.)

Steve is right that it's used a lot in academic tests. Art critics are
especially fond of it. I asked one art critic what it meant and how it
differed from "problem" and she said that problematic is a "research
question", specifically "A problematic is a problem that is the
subject of research." In that meaning it's very close to the French
problématique and I think that is the source of the use in English.
The word seems to pop up a lot in Fench Post-modernist and
Deconstructionist criticism.

I've seen "problematics" as a field of study (cf "analytics") but I
can't find an example to hand. However I have captured this gem: "In
the two "Modernism Redux" lectures, these transformations and
reappearances will be problematicized."

Gag.

--
Bob
St Francis would have done better to preach to the cats

Steve Hayes:

> What is the difference between "problem" and "problematic"
> (when used as a noun)?

In Russian, `problematic' (problematika) denotes a set of
problems that belong to the same field or are otherwise
interconnected.

--
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On 15/05/21 01:50, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Steve Hayes:
>
>> What is the difference between "problem" and "problematic" (when
>> used as a noun)?
>
> In Russian, `problematic' (problematika) denotes a set of problems
> that belong to the same field or are otherwise interconnected.

If I have correctly understood my Russian-English dictionary, that's a
plural noun, so probably unrelated to what Steve is asking about.

(Looking that up made me realise that Russian has a huge number of words
beginning with pro-.)

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On 15/05/2021 11:50 a.m., Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 15/05/21 01:50, Anton Shepelev wrote:
>> Steve Hayes:
>>
>>> What is the difference between "problem" and "problematic" (when
>>> used as a noun)?
>>
>> In Russian, `problematic' (problematika) denotes a set of problems
>> that belong to the same field or are otherwise interconnected.
>
> If I have correctly understood my Russian-English dictionary, that's a
> plural noun, so probably unrelated to what Steve is asking about.

No, it's a singular feminine, just like informatika 'IT'. Both probably
modeled on French.

> (Looking that up made me realise that Russian has a huge number of words
> beginning with pro-.)

Yes, they've inherited it directly in Slavic, and added lots of
loanwords of Greek and Latin origin.

Ross Clark:

> > > In Russian, `problematic' (problematika) denotes a set
> > > of problems that belong to the same field or are oth-
> > > erwise interconnected.
> >
> > If I have correctly understood my Russian-English dic-
> > tionary, that's a plural noun, so probably unrelated to
> > what Steve is asking about.
>
> No, it's a singular feminine, just like informatika 'IT'.

Right.

> just like informatika 'IT'. Both probably modeled on
> French.

Karl Steinbuch invented the word in his 1957 article "Infor-
matik: Automatische Informationsverarbeitung". In 1962,
Philippe Dreyfus intruduced it into French and Alexandr
Kharkevich into Russian.

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On Thu, 13 May 2021 20:02:21 +0300, Opinicus
<gezgin@spamcop.net.which.is.not.quite.invalid> wrote:

>Steve is right that it's used a lot in academic tests. Art critics are
>especially fond of it. I asked one art critic what it meant and how it
>differed from "problem" and she said that problematic is a "research
>question", specifically "A problematic is a problem that is the
>subject of research." In that meaning it's very close to the French
>problématique and I think that is the source of the use in English.
>The word seems to pop up a lot in Fench Post-modernist and
>Deconstructionist criticism.
>
>I've seen "problematics" as a field of study (cf "analytics") but I
>can't find an example to hand. However I have captured this gem: "In
>the two "Modernism Redux" lectures, these transformations and
>reappearances will be problematicized."

Thanks very much for this, and for all the other comments.

The problematic sentence in the document I was editing was:

"In both cases this discourse is followed by the problematic of the
inclusion of gentiles in the saving activity of Jesus as exemplified
in the narrative of the healing of the daughter of a Syrophoenician
(Mk) or Canaanite (Mt) woman in the vicinity of Tyre (Mk 7:24-30;"

I think the author's native language is German.

In that instance I changed it to "problem".

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 16/05/2021 12:20 a.m., Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Ross Clark:
>
>>>> In Russian, `problematic' (problematika) denotes a set
>>>> of problems that belong to the same field or are oth-
>>>> erwise interconnected.
>>>
>>> If I have correctly understood my Russian-English dic-
>>> tionary, that's a plural noun, so probably unrelated to
>>> what Steve is asking about.
>>
>> No, it's a singular feminine, just like informatika 'IT'.
>
> Right.
>
>> just like informatika 'IT'. Both probably modeled on
>> French.
>
> Karl Steinbuch invented the word in his 1957 article "Infor-
> matik: Automatische Informationsverarbeitung". In 1962,
> Philippe Dreyfus intruduced it into French and Alexandr
> Kharkevich into Russian.

Wow. Rarely do we have such precise information on words of recent
origin. Thanks!

On Sun, 16 May 2021 06:30:17 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> > I asked one art critic what it meant and how it
> >differed from "problem" and she said that problematic is a "research
> >question", specifically "A problematic is a problem that is the
> >subject of research." In that meaning it's very close to the French
> >problématique and I think that is the source of the use in English.
> >The word seems to pop up a lot in Fench Post-modernist and
> >Deconstructionist criticism.

8<!

> The problematic sentence in the document I was editing was:

> "In both cases this discourse is followed by the problematic of the
> inclusion of gentiles in the saving activity of Jesus as exemplified
> in the narrative of the healing of the daughter of a Syrophoenician
> (Mk) or Canaanite (Mt) woman in the vicinity of Tyre (Mk 7:24-30;"

> I think the author's native language is German.
> In that instance I changed it to "problem".
I doubt anyone would notice except maybe the author. His use is
consistent with the art critic's problem vs problematic distinction I
spoke of in my previous message.

--
Bob
St Francis would have done better to preach to the cats

I wrote:

> Karl Steinbuch invented the word in his 1957 article "In-
> formatik: Automatische Informationsverarbeitung". In 1962,
> Philippe Dreyfus intruduced it into French and Alexandr
> Kharkevich into Russian.

And whenever I encounter that word in a Russian text, it is
a redundant reminder that I am reading boring stuff. Our
good critics of art and literature have managed without it.

--
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In alt.english.usage, on Thu, 13 May 2021 13:29:16 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>What is the difference between "problem" and "problematic" (when used
>as a noun)?
>
>My dictionary doesn't even recognise problematic(al) as a noun, but I

Neither do I.

>see it quite a lot in academic texts, but there is nothing in the
>context to indicate that it is used to mean anything other than
>"problem".

This reminds me of exploit, used as a noun to mean the effort to exploit
a security weakness in software. But this second use jumps ahead a
step or two.

Or methodology, which doesn't mean, as it should, the study of methods,
but instead in every instance I've ever seen just means method. But it's
an effort to sound more important.

I'm opposed to all such new uses of words unless there is no
pre-existing word for the meaning intended. There are enough new words
that we really need; we don't need extra words.

"Power to the past!"

"Down with change!!"

Join the movement. Send $20 to DownWithChange.com. Paypal accepted.

* micky:

> Or methodology, which doesn't mean, as it should, the study of methods,
> but instead in every instance I've ever seen just means method. But it's
> an effort to sound more important.

The first time I encountered it - well, the German counterpart,
Methodologie - it was the title of a course, in pedagogy in this case,
indeed a course where various methods used in teaching were discussed.
There are proper usages of the word.

"Problematik" is a bit more problematic. I understand it as a complex of
issues that's too involved to be reduced - at least at present - to just
one problem, a bundle of issues, but I admit the usage is usually very
vague.

> "Power to the past!"
>
> "Down with change!!"
>
> Join the movement. Send $20 to DownWithChange.com. Paypal accepted.

Sorry, Paypal is too newfangled for my taste.

--
Perhaps it might be well, while the subject is under discussion,
to attempt the creation of an entirely new gender, for the purpose
of facilitating reference to the growing caste of manly women and
womanly men. -- Baltimore Sun (1910)

On 23/05/21 08:30, Quinn C wrote:
> * micky:
>
>> Or methodology, which doesn't mean, as it should, the study of
>> methods, but instead in every instance I've ever seen just means
>> method. But it's an effort to sound more important.
>
> The first time I encountered it - well, the German counterpart,
> Methodologie - it was the title of a course, in pedagogy in this
> case, indeed a course where various methods used in teaching were
> discussed. There are proper usages of the word.

If I say "This was designed using a different methodology", it means
that the designer took a new approach to choosing methods. The methods
are the things that were used, or were considered as candidates. The
methodology is the philosophy that leads to the proposal of methods.

> "Problematik" is a bit more problematic. I understand it as a complex
> of issues that's too involved to be reduced - at least at present -
> to just one problem, a bundle of issues, but I admit the usage is
> usually very vague.

The vagueness is why I don't like that word. It suggests fuzzy-mindedness.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

In alt.english.usage, on Sat, 22 May 2021 17:30:49 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* micky:
>
>> Or methodology, which doesn't mean, as it should, the study of methods,
>> but instead in every instance I've ever seen just means method. But it's
>> an effort to sound more important.
>
>The first time I encountered it - well, the German counterpart,
>Methodologie - it was the title of a course, in pedagogy in this case,
>indeed a course where various methods used in teaching were discussed.
>There are proper usages of the word.

I'm not surprised, but by the time I heard the word, it's always meant
method. Peter has not convince me. ;-)

>"Problematik" is a bit more problematic. I understand it as a complex of
>issues that's too involved to be reduced - at least at present - to just
>one problem, a bundle of issues, but I admit the usage is usually very
>vague.
>
>> "Power to the past!"
>>
>> "Down with change!!"
>>
>> Join the movement. Send $20 to DownWithChange.com. Paypal accepted.
>
>Sorry, Paypal is too newfangled for my taste.

I understand. You can send a check or money order to Down With Change,
POB 1776, Baltimore MD 21201. Because I wont be charged the Paypal
commission, you only have to send, iirc $18.50.

BTW, until I was about 20, the abbreviation was POB. Somehow that became
insufficient and they switched to POBox, even in addresses, where I
thought the meaning was perfectly clear.

On 2021-05-22, micky wrote:

> Join the movement. Send $20 to DownWithChange.com. Paypal accepted.

How about $19.50 with a cash discount?

--
Why is it drug addicts and computer afficionados are both
called users? ---Clifford Stoll

On 24/05/21 19:24, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2021-05-22, micky wrote:
>
>> Join the movement. Send $20 to DownWithChange.com. Paypal accepted.
>
> How about $19.50 with a cash discount?

Don't expect to get change.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On 2021-05-24, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 24/05/21 19:24, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2021-05-22, micky wrote:
>>
>>> Join the movement. Send $20 to DownWithChange.com. Paypal accepted.
>>
>> How about $19.50 with a cash discount?
>
> Don't expect to get change.

plus y a de la monnaie, plus c'est la même chose

--
Disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld about bombing anybody who gets in our
way is not a crime in this country. It is a wise and honorable idea
that George Washington and Benjamin Franklin risked their lives for.
---Hunter S Thompson

* Peter Moylan:

> On 24/05/21 19:24, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2021-05-22, micky wrote:
>>
>>> Join the movement. Send $20 to DownWithChange.com. Paypal accepted.
>>
>> How about $19.50 with a cash discount?
>
> Don't expect to get change.

But I'm ready to pick it up from the floor!
--
Democracy means government by the uneducated,
while aristocracy means government by the badly educated.
-- G. K. Chesterton

On Mon, 24 May 2021 22:08:26 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> >> Join the movement. Send $20 to DownWithChange.com. Paypal accepted.

> > How about $19.50 with a cash discount?

> Don't expect to get change.

https://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot&play=true

--
Bob
St Francis would have done better to preach to the cats

On Sat, 22 May 2021 11:38:52 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
wrote:

>In alt.english.usage, on Thu, 13 May 2021 13:29:16 +0200, Steve Hayes
><hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>>What is the difference between "problem" and "problematic" (when used
>>as a noun)?
>>
>>My dictionary doesn't even recognise problematic(al) as a noun, but I
>
>Neither do I.
>
>>see it quite a lot in academic texts, but there is nothing in the
>>context to indicate that it is used to mean anything other than
>>"problem".
>
>This reminds me of exploit, used as a noun to mean the effort to exploit
>a security weakness in software. But this second use jumps ahead a
>step or two.
>
>Or methodology, which doesn't mean, as it should, the study of methods,
>but instead in every instance I've ever seen just means method. But it's
>an effort to sound more important.

Yes, that too is not in my dictionary though I sometimes think that
there ought to be a difference between it and method, but when I see
it in context, I cannot put my finger on the putative difference.

One that is in my dictionary is "mythology", but
I still get the feeling that some people use it when they simply mean
"myth".

>I'm opposed to all such new uses of words unless there is no
>pre-existing word for the meaning intended. There are enough new words
>that we really need; we don't need extra words.

Agreed, but academics looking for promotion seem to feel that short
words are not impressive enough.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk