Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

> In article <e8v8bgdvr0v30b2rqubj93b148jstr2jp1@4ax.com>,
> hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
> > Yes, "boffin" is more narrowly technical than the AmE "guru" or the
> > SAfE "fundi", but when qualified by some technical term, like
> > comp[uter, I think they are all more-or-less -- a computer boffin is
> > much the same as a computer guru or a computer fundi. Buit I don't
> > think one would talkn of a "financial boffin".
> >
> > But I would still say that "guru" refers to expertise rather than
> > influence, in whatever field.
> >
> I would say guru implies an expert who teaches, instructs, mentors
> students/ followers.

Anything between a complete idiot and someone with arcane knowledge.

>Boffin doesn't. Boffins exist in their own little
> sphere, their field of expertise sometimes unrecognised let alone
> appreciated.

Indeed, the results of their efforts
were usually shells impacting, or bombs falling,
and usually much too close for comfort.

Appreciation depended strongly on which side you were on,
but recognition was inevitable,

Jan

Peter Duncanson [BrE] <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 May 2021 11:29:20 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <e8v8bgdvr0v30b2rqubj93b148jstr2jp1@4ax.com>,
> >hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
> >> Yes, "boffin" is more narrowly technical than the AmE "guru" or the
> >> SAfE "fundi", but when qualified by some technical term, like
> >> comp[uter, I think they are all more-or-less -- a computer boffin is
> >> much the same as a computer guru or a computer fundi. Buit I don't
> >> think one would talkn of a "financial boffin".
> >>
> >> But I would still say that "guru" refers to expertise rather than
> >> influence, in whatever field.
> >>
> > I would say guru implies an expert who teaches, instructs, mentors
> >students/ followers. Boffin doesn't. Boffins exist in their own little
> >sphere, their field of expertise sometimes unrecognised let alone
> >appreciated.
> >
> > Janet
>
> Yes. I was having similar thoughts.

Nowadays perhaps,
with the original meaning of 'boffin' no longer understood.
The real boffins had good connections at the highest level
of industry and politics.

In particular, Churchill himself was quite interested
in what he called 'funnies'.
This meant strange and entirely new means of war fighting,
not only bouncing bombs, but also more prosaic things
such as flail tanks or Mulberry harbours.
Winston had that throughout his carrier in fact.
Churchill was not the one who invented the tank in WWI,
but in a very real sense he was the man
who made his 'landships' happen,

Jan

On 5/31/2021 6:11 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 31 May 2021 08:15:13 +0200, Steve Hayes
> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:45:16 -0400, Tony Cooper
>><tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 29 May 2021 10:39:03 +0200, Steve Hayes
>>><hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>>>Then I seem to have misunderstood the US usage of "guru". In my
>>>>understanding a computer guru was your "go-to" guy when something goes
>>>>wrong with your computer.
>>>>
>>>
>>>The problem with your question is in the use of "The US equivalent" as
>>>if there is one, and only one, way "guru" is used in the US.
>>>
>>>There are those who use "guru" to mean "the go-to guy when something
>>>goes wrong with your computer", and some of those people restrict the
>>>word to describing a person who is the all-knowing expert in
>>>computer-related issues.
>>>
>>>My comment that a "guru" is a person with knowledge in the field and
>>>who is influential in the field was rejected by some because
>>>"knowledge" alone is not enough and the person need not be
>>>influential.
>>>
>>>Yet, I give you Kim Komando: https://www.kgoradio.com/kimkomando/
>>>
>>>where it says Kim has evolved into a national digital guru. “It’s not
>>>about techies and computer-troubleshooting anymore,” she says. “It’s
>>>now about a lifestyle – the lifestyle of a digital age.”
>>
>>How does that use of "guru" differ from the AmE term "wonk"?
>
> "Guru" is used much more widely in the US than "wonk".

Yes--*much* more widely. I almost never see or hear "wonk."

> The most
> frequent usage - from what I've seen - is in the term "policy wonk".
> That describes a politician or political advisor who gives a lot of
> attention to the details of political policies or strategies.
>
> When congress votes on a budget issue, some congressmen vote based on
> what their party leaders want and have very little idea of what is in
> the budget bill. A policy wonk, though, will know every detail of the
> bill and what effect the details will have. (He or she will still
> vote along party lines, though)
>
> I can't come up with any other common usages of "wonk" in the US. I'm
> sure they exist, but I don't think the word is used very much here.
>

--
Ken

In message <MPG.3b1ecadd4f4c8197989a4b@news.individual.net> Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
> In article <e8v8bgdvr0v30b2rqubj93b148jstr2jp1@4ax.com>,
> hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
>> Yes, "boffin" is more narrowly technical than the AmE "guru" or the
>> SAfE "fundi", but when qualified by some technical term, like
>> comp[uter, I think they are all more-or-less -- a computer boffin is
>> much the same as a computer guru or a computer fundi. Buit I don't
>> think one would talkn of a "financial boffin".
>>
>> But I would still say that "guru" refers to expertise rather than
>> influence, in whatever field.
>>
> I would say guru implies an expert who teaches, instructs, mentors
> students/ followers. Boffin doesn't. Boffins exist in their own little
> sphere, their field of expertise sometimes unrecognised let alone
> appreciated.

But as I said previously, in tech at least, guru brings to mind the
hermit on the mountain that you go to to get some wisdom, not the cult
leader with the koolade sense of guru.

--
For more than a thousand generations the Jedi were the guardians of
peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the dark times. Before
the Empire.

On 01/06/21 03:03, Lewis wrote:
> In message <MPG.3b1ecadd4f4c8197989a4b@news.individual.net> Janet
> <nobody@home.com> wrote:
>> In article <e8v8bgdvr0v30b2rqubj93b148jstr2jp1@4ax.com>,
>> hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
>>> Yes, "boffin" is more narrowly technical than the AmE "guru" or
>>> the SAfE "fundi", but when qualified by some technical term,
>>> like comp[uter, I think they are all more-or-less -- a computer
>>> boffin is much the same as a computer guru or a computer fundi.
>>> Buit I don't think one would talkn of a "financial boffin".
>>>
>>> But I would still say that "guru" refers to expertise rather
>>> than influence, in whatever field.
>>>
>> I would say guru implies an expert who teaches, instructs, mentors
>> students/ followers. Boffin doesn't. Boffins exist in their own
>> little sphere, their field of expertise sometimes unrecognised let
>> alone appreciated.
>
> But as I said previously, in tech at least, guru brings to mind the
> hermit on the mountain that you go to to get some wisdom, not the
> cult leader with the koolade sense of guru.

Traditionally, there is a more straightforward meaning of guru: a teacher.

When one of my PhD students was writing up his work, his uncle arrived
from India to look after the housework so that the nephew could focus on
the culmination of his research. I was a little embarrassed by the signs
of great respect that the uncle showed to me. Then I realised that this
was simply a part of Indian culture. As the supervisor of the research,
I was the guru, and therefore worthy of respect.

I tried to stay humble anyway. Teachers and researchers used to be
respected in my culture, but that was before the society decided that
the only people worthy of respect were those with lots of money.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Dan Purgert wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Steve Hayes wrote:
>> I associate boffin with the development of electronic warfare -- radar,
>> code cracking and the like.
>
> It's just my conjecture but I wonder aloud whether "BOF" wasn't a department
> of some technical intelligence sort, "British" "Operations" "Forensics"...

I associate the word with World War II technology. Surely bouncing
bombs and radar where invented by boffins?!

--
Just as 'beautiful' points the way for aesthetics and 'good' for ethics,
so do words like 'true' for logic. All sciences have truth as their
goal; but logic is also concerned with it in a quite different way:
logic has much the same relation to truth as physics has to weight or
heat. Frege in 'Thoughts' (Der Gedanke)

Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 24 May 2021 00:58:02 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 21 May 2021 12:31:44 +0000, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>
>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>> That is the usage I first learned, so is what I think of, so it's a bit
>>>> odd for me when I see it used as a general term, though otoh, nerd has
>>>> also moved much more into a mainstream word.
>>>
>>> Thank you for confirming the usage as far as you're aware of it, which
>>> is chiefly what I was interested in given it's a new word to my
>>> experience.
>>>
>>> It's interesting as it seems strange such a recent word wouldn't have a
>>> more definitive origin given its first appearance was only a few decades
>>> ago.
>>
>> The US equivalent seems to be "guru", which, though an older word, seems
>> to be newer even than "boffin" in that respect.
>
> I guess it depends on how those in the US use "guru". A "boffin", in
> my understanding, is a person in management and usually a person in
> management in a technical capacity.
>
> A "guru", in my use, is a person with knowledge of field who is
> influential in that field.
>
> An influential financial or stock market advisor could be described as
> a "guru" in the US, but I don't think that person would be described
> as a "boffin" in the UK.

A minimal requirement for anyone using the word "boffin" in the UK is
that they wear an RAF uniform, sport a moustache, and speak with a
public school accent!

>
> So, I don't think they're equivalent. I may be wrong. I'm not
> familiar with all the uses of "boffin" in the UK.
>
>
>>
>> I associate boffin with the development of electronic warfare -- radar,
>> code cracking and the like.
>>
>> An SAfE equivalent is "fundi", from the Zulu "umfundi", meaning s
>> scholar, a learner, or a well-read person.
>>
>> But a "Computer fundi", a "computer boffin" or a "computer guru" have
>> largely overlapping meanings, with "boffin" weighted more towards
>> hardware than software, and towards R & D.

--
Just as 'beautiful' points the way for aesthetics and 'good' for ethics,
so do words like 'true' for logic. All sciences have truth as their
goal; but logic is also concerned with it in a quite different way:
logic has much the same relation to truth as physics has to weight or
heat. Frege in 'Thoughts' (Der Gedanke)

In message <s9doer$1839$2@gioia.aioe.org> Peter <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dan Purgert wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA256
>>
>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> I associate boffin with the development of electronic warfare -- radar,
>>> code cracking and the like.
>>
>> It's just my conjecture but I wonder aloud whether "BOF" wasn't a department
>> of some technical intelligence sort, "British" "Operations" "Forensics"...

> I associate the word with World War II technology. Surely bouncing
> bombs and radar where invented by boffins?!

There are incidents of Boffin as a name, but the earliest reference I
know (had to dig it up, then discovered it's on the wikipedia page,
sigh) is:

> 1945 Times 15 Sept. 5/4 A band of scientific men who performed their
> wartime wonders at Malvern and apparently called themselves "the
> boffins".

The origin of its current meaning seems clearly to have come from WWII,
but no one know the origin.

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Brain, but wouldn't his movies be more suitable for
children if he was named Jean-Claude van Darn?"

In message <s9dpcq$1tuc$1@gioia.aioe.org> Peter <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A minimal requirement for anyone using the word "boffin" in the UK is
> that they wear an RAF uniform, sport a moustache, and speak with a
> public school accent!

That describes zero of the Brits I know who have used the word.

--
The real American folksong is a rag -- a mental jag A rhythmic tone
for the chronic blues

On Mon, 31 May 2021 11:29:20 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

>In article <e8v8bgdvr0v30b2rqubj93b148jstr2jp1@4ax.com>,
>hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
>> Yes, "boffin" is more narrowly technical than the AmE "guru" or the
>> SAfE "fundi", but when qualified by some technical term, like
>> comp[uter, I think they are all more-or-less -- a computer boffin is
>> much the same as a computer guru or a computer fundi. Buit I don't
>> think one would talkn of a "financial boffin".
>>
>> But I would still say that "guru" refers to expertise rather than
>> influence, in whatever field.
>>
> I would say guru implies an expert who teaches, instructs, mentors
>students/ followers. Boffin doesn't. Boffins exist in their own little
>sphere, their field of expertise sometimes unrecognised let alone
>appreciated.

I agree. "Boffin" is a narrower term.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk