Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence.. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.

Steve Riggan

On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 5:04:16 PM UTC-7, affirm...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
>
> Steve Riggan

What evidence.
The Close Roll of 1479 states that her name was "Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling"

Also

https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00inchit/page/50/mode/1up?q=Dennis
Vis Glouc 1623, "Dennis", pg 50
"Morrys Dennis +1 Katherine d of Edward Stradling, +2 Alice d of Nicholas Pointz"

A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
> Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
>
> Steve Riggan
There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.

On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 9:35:56 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 5:04:16 PM UTC-7, affirm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
> >
> > Steve Riggan
> What evidence.
> The Close Roll of 1479 states that her name was "Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling"

Thank you for posting this question and for the responses from Will and Paulo, I've been wondering myself if there have been any recent updates since the debate in 2004. The information from the Close Roll of 1479 is very interesting, but since I don't have access to it, Will, could you I ask you to to expand the quote from it in regard to Katherine Stradling or provide its context (e.g. is Katherine mentioned as the wife of Maurice Dennis or mother of Walter Dennis)? I agree with Paulo that since there is no evidence that this Edward Stradling had illegitimate children and Maurice Dennis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling, there is no reason to doubt that Katherine was a daughter of his only wife, Joan Beaufort. Many thanks!

On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm....@gmail.com escreveu:
> > Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
> >
> > Steve Riggan
> There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.

Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.

I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).

BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.

A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm....@gmail.com escreveu:
> > > Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
> > >
> > > Steve Riggan
> > There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
> Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.
>
> I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
>
> BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.

It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.

On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
> > > > Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > Steve Riggan
> > > There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
> > Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.
> >
> > I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
> >
> > BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.
> It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.

Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So you cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".

The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.

A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg....@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
> > > > > Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve Riggan
> > > > There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
> > > Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.
> > >
> > > I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
> > >
> > > BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.
> > It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
> Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So you cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".
>
> The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.

It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.

On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:28:58 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg....@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
> > > > > > Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve Riggan
> > > > > There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
> > > > Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.
> > > >
> > > > I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
> > > >
> > > > BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.
> > > It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
> > Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So you cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".
> >
> > The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.
> It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.
The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had illegitimate children.

I think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate children for Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating her maternity.

So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is now your reason for continuing to support that claim?

A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 03:48:06 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:28:58 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > > A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
> > > > > > > Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steve Riggan
> > > > > > There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
> > > > > Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.
> > > > It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
> > > Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So you cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".
> > >
> > > The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.
> > It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.
> The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had illegitimate children.
>
> I think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate children for Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating her maternity.
>
> So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is now your reason for continuing to support that claim?
I re-read the thread and saw your post showing that. However, you, yourself, said in this thread "some may challenge that point". Could you, please, expand on that? Also, as I said, Maurice Denis had a large inheritance and, IMO, would have been unlikely to marry an illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling.

On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 10:48:06 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:28:58 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > > A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
> > > > > > > Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steve Riggan
> > > > > > There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
> > > > > Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.
> > > > It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
> > > Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So you cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".
> > >
> > > The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.
> > It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.
> The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had illegitimate children.
>
> I think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate children for Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating her maternity.
>
> So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is now your reason for continuing to support that claim?

Hi John, thank you for the detailed replies! I was going to ask you about the source referring to the Stradling illegitimate children and you shared it in your last comment. There were comments in the past about how there was a mix up between the two Sir Edwards, but I wasn't able to find a detailed explanation about it. As such, I was curious to read the source myself and my main observation is that there are some errors and contradictions contained in it (on the basis of my quick review of relevant entries).

Namely:
1) Clark indicates Alice, daughter of Earl of Arundel as the mother of Jane Beaufort
2) He assigns John as a bastard to the first Sir Edward and makes him the ancestor of Stradlings of Gelligaer. However, that entry (pg. 440) shows John’s grandson marrying in 1608 and having issue, which would make it impossible for the first Sir Edward (d. 1452) to be this John’s father.
3) He lists Catherine, d. of Sir Edward Stradling as the 1st wife of Morris Dennis and the mother of Walter Dennis (pg. 382) without indicating her being base born, even though he didn't list Catherine as one of Sir Edward Stradling's children (pg. 435).

Based on these, in my mind, Clark doesn’t appear to be a reliable source in regard to indicating 15th century legitimacy/illegitimacy and as such, since Sir Edward Stradling had only one wife, I would personally lean towards his daughter, Katherine, as being legitimate.

Plus, as Paolo said, an illegitimate daughter of knight would not have been an advantageous match for Maurice Dennis. As it happens, only yesterday I came across this passage in the The House of Beaufort (by Nathan Amin) about John of Gaunt's efforts to marry his (then) illegitimate daughter: "The Ferrers were an established gentry family based in Shropshire and Staffordshire, and had fought for the duke of Lancaster in the French wars. It was a solid, if unspectacular, engagement for Joan, with the marriage eventually taking place in 1392, shortly after Robert’s sixteenth birthday. On account of her illegitimate status, Joan was restricted from bringing any lands or titles to the marriage, and was therefore not an attractive marital prospect for any bachelors further up the social ladder seeking an estate by right of their wife"

Again, thank you all for your responses, they are very helpful.

On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 3:25:33 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 03:48:06 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:28:58 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg....@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > > On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > > > A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
> > > > > > > > Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Steve Riggan
> > > > > > > There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
> > > > > > Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.
> > > > > It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
> > > > Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So you cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".
> > > >
> > > > The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.
> > > It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.
> > The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had illegitimate children.
> >
> > I think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate children for Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating her maternity.
> >
> > So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is now your reason for continuing to support that claim?
> I re-read the thread and saw your post showing that. However, you, yourself, said in this thread "some may challenge that point". Could you, please, expand on that? Also, as I said, Maurice Denis had a large inheritance and, IMO, would have been unlikely to marry an illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling.

My remark, which you partially quoted, was "some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling". " I was trying to be subtle - apparently too much so for you. :-) You should be able to figure out what (or, more specifically, who) I was referring to. :-)

I said in my first post in this current thread that "I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there".. I'm going to stick to that statement now, as I don't think there is anything to be gained by further discussion. It's all just speculation on an issue which cannot be firmly decided. In the absence of actual evidence beyond what has already been discussed at length, I'll leave it to others to discuss the question. IMO there still is no definitive answer to the question of whether Katherine Stradling was legitimate or illegitimate - and thus whether Katherine Deighton has a royal descent or not.

On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 12:32:04 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 3:25:33 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 03:48:06 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:28:58 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > > > On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > > A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > > > > A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
> > > > > > > > > Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Steve Riggan
> > > > > > > > There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
> > > > > > > Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.
> > > > > > It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
> > > > > Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So you cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".
> > > > >
> > > > > The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown.. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.
> > > > It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.
> > > The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had illegitimate children.
> > >
> > > I think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate children for Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating her maternity.
> > >
> > > So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is now your reason for continuing to support that claim?
> > I re-read the thread and saw your post showing that. However, you, yourself, said in this thread "some may challenge that point". Could you, please, expand on that? Also, as I said, Maurice Denis had a large inheritance and, IMO, would have been unlikely to marry an illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling.
> My remark, which you partially quoted, was "some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling". " I was trying to be subtle - apparently too much so for you. :-) You should be able to figure out what (or, more specifically, who) I was referring to. :-)
>
> I said in my first post in this current thread that "I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there". I'm going to stick to that statement now, as I don't think there is anything to be gained by further discussion. It's all just speculation on an issue which cannot be firmly decided. In the absence of actual evidence beyond what has already been discussed at length, I'll leave it to others to discuss the question. IMO there still is no definitive answer to the question of whether Katherine Stradling was legitimate or illegitimate - and thus whether Katherine Deighton has a royal descent or not.

Katherine Deighton has a descent from Edward I, at least if the sources cited on Genealogics are to be believed--Katherine Stradling's grandson Sir William Dennis married Anne Berkeley, who has a descent that runs Berkeley-Mowbray-FitzAlan-Bohun.

On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 1:22:34 PM UTC-4, Elizabeth A wrote:
> On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 12:32:04 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 3:25:33 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 03:48:06 UTC+1, jhigg....@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > > On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:28:58 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > > > > On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > > > A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > > > > > A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
> > > > > > > > > > Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Steve Riggan
> > > > > > > > > There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
> > > > > > > > Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.
> > > > > > > It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
> > > > > > Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So you cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.
> > > > > It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.
> > > > The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had illegitimate children.
> > > >
> > > > I think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate children for Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating her maternity.
> > > >
> > > > So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is now your reason for continuing to support that claim?
> > > I re-read the thread and saw your post showing that. However, you, yourself, said in this thread "some may challenge that point". Could you, please, expand on that? Also, as I said, Maurice Denis had a large inheritance and, IMO, would have been unlikely to marry an illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling.
> > My remark, which you partially quoted, was "some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling". " I was trying to be subtle - apparently too much so for you. :-) You should be able to figure out what (or, more specifically, who) I was referring to. :-)
> >
> > I said in my first post in this current thread that "I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there". I'm going to stick to that statement now, as I don't think there is anything to be gained by further discussion. It's all just speculation on an issue which cannot be firmly decided. In the absence of actual evidence beyond what has already been discussed at length, I'll leave it to others to discuss the question. IMO there still is no definitive answer to the question of whether Katherine Stradling was legitimate or illegitimate - and thus whether Katherine Deighton has a royal descent or not.
> Katherine Deighton has a descent from Edward I, at least if the sources cited on Genealogics are to be believed--Katherine Stradling's grandson Sir William Dennis married Anne Berkeley, who has a descent that runs Berkeley-Mowbray-FitzAlan-Bohun.

Right, there is at least one Edward I descent which does not depend upon Stradling's status. I can't exactly remember, but there may not be another Edward III descent if Stradling lacks the Beaufort connection.

On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 11:07:02 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 1:22:34 PM UTC-4, Elizabeth A wrote:
> > On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 12:32:04 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > > I said in my first post in this current thread that "I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there". I'm going to stick to that statement now, as I don't think there is anything to be gained by further discussion. It's all just speculation on an issue which cannot be firmly decided. In the absence of actual evidence beyond what has already been discussed at length, I'll leave it to others to discuss the question. IMO there still is no definitive answer to the question of whether Katherine Stradling was legitimate or illegitimate - and thus whether Katherine Deighton has a royal descent or not.
> > Katherine Deighton has a descent from Edward I, at least if the sources cited on Genealogics are to be believed--Katherine Stradling's grandson Sir William Dennis married Anne Berkeley, who has a descent that runs Berkeley-Mowbray-FitzAlan-Bohun.
> Right, there is at least one Edward I descent which does not depend upon Stradling's status. I can't exactly remember, but there may not be another Edward III descent if Stradling lacks the Beaufort connection.

Elizabeth and John are correct. There are other Edward I descents for Katherine Deighton besides the disputed Stradling descent - 5 by my count. And, if my data is correct, the disputed Stradling descent is the only one that gives Katherine Deighton an Edward III descent. I should have been more careful in my wording regarding Katherine Deighton's "royal" descents. It was specifically the Edward III descent that was the issue in the 2004 thread - and in this thread.

Besides the Deighton family, Thomas Ligon of Virginia and Rev. Edward Foliot, also of Virginia, were descendants of Anne Berkeley and William Dennis. Through the Berkeley line, there are three lines to Edward I, two by his first wife Eleanor of Castile, and one by 2nd wife Margaret of France. Thomas Ligon is one of my gateway ancestors.

Steve Riggan

On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 12:32:08 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 11:07:02 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 1:22:34 PM UTC-4, Elizabeth A wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 12:32:04 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > > I said in my first post in this current thread that "I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there". I'm going to stick to that statement now, as I don't think there is anything to be gained by further discussion. It's all just speculation on an issue which cannot be firmly decided. In the absence of actual evidence beyond what has already been discussed at length, I'll leave it to others to discuss the question. IMO there still is no definitive answer to the question of whether Katherine Stradling was legitimate or illegitimate - and thus whether Katherine Deighton has a royal descent or not.
> > > Katherine Deighton has a descent from Edward I, at least if the sources cited on Genealogics are to be believed--Katherine Stradling's grandson Sir William Dennis married Anne Berkeley, who has a descent that runs Berkeley-Mowbray-FitzAlan-Bohun.
> > Right, there is at least one Edward I descent which does not depend upon Stradling's status. I can't exactly remember, but there may not be another Edward III descent if Stradling lacks the Beaufort connection.
> Elizabeth and John are correct. There are other Edward I descents for Katherine Deighton besides the disputed Stradling descent - 5 by my count. And, if my data is correct, the disputed Stradling descent is the only one that gives Katherine Deighton an Edward III descent. I should have been more careful in my wording regarding Katherine Deighton's "royal" descents. It was specifically the Edward III descent that was the issue in the 2004 thread - and in this thread.

The source for the quotation from the Close Roll 1479 is

https://books.google.com/books?id=bDlKAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA62&ots=_RBv5-gGBG&dq=%22edward%20stradling%22%20close%20roll%201479&pg=PA62#v=onepage&q&f=false

Note that this is not a published series of Close Roll entries, just the one relevant to this question
However note the author has enquoted the entire paragraph, *implying* it's an exact quote from the Roll

On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:35:56 PM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> What evidence.
> The Close Roll of 1479 states that her name was "Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling"

???
Will, can you link to this Close Roll entry? I was completely unaware of it when I wrote my article for FMG in 2004. In a footnote in that article, I summed up the evidence for Sir Edward Stradling having a daughter married to Maurice Dennys:

"In the Winston pedigree of 1607, a daughter, Katherin Stradling, wife of Watkyn Wynston, Lord of Winston, is assigned to Edward [stradling] and Jane [Beaufort]. Curiously, in the Dennis pedigree published in a manuscript copy of the 1623 Visitation of Gloucestershire (Maclean and Heane, 1885), a Katherine, daughter of Sir Edward Stradling, is given as the first wife of Maurice Dennis. An earlier pedigree of the Dennis family, dating to about 1530 and now housed in the College of Arms (London, College of Arms, Muniment Room, MS.3/54), names the first wife of Maurice Dennis as 'Johanna Stradling' but doesn't ascribe parentage to her. Neither of these daughters is found in surviving 15th-century records, and they are not named, nor are their marriages listed, in Sir Edward Stradling's [a later one, descended from Sir Edward Stradling and Jane Beaufort] account of his family from the 1560s."

To answer Steve's original question in this thread, I know of no further research since 2004 regarding the identity of the Stradling first wife of Maurice Dennis. I should point out my article was written to debunk the notion that the mistress of Cardinal Beaufort was Alice (Fitzalan of Arundel), Lady Cherleton. Two different researchers have contacted me privately in the past five or so years, providing some tantalizing evidence that could help in identifying Cardinal Beaufort's mistress, the mother of his daughter Jane. But to my knowledge, neither has yet published their findings, so I won't detail or summarize what they shared with me until they do so.

Cheers, -----Brad

On 16-Oct-21 7:54 AM, Will Johnson wrote:
> The source for the quotation from the Close Roll 1479 is
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=bDlKAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA62&ots=_RBv5-gGBG&dq=%22edward%20stradling%22%20close%20roll%201479&pg=PA62#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> Note that this is not a published series of Close Roll entries, just the one relevant to this question
> However note the author has enquoted the entire paragraph, *implying* it's an exact quote from the Roll
>

The name Stradling does not occur in the published 1479 close roll, see
here: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-close-rolls/edw4/1476-85

Peter Stewart

https://books.google.com/books?id=bDlKAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA62&ots=_RBv5-gGBG&pg=PA62

Close Roll AD 1479 states "That John Kemys survived both his wife Margaret and her son Maurice Denys This Maurice married Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling Knight of St Donat Castle Glamorgan "

Note that *this author* (not me) has enqouted the entire sentence. I suppose it is possible that they only mean to enquote a smaller portion, but this is my source for what I said.

On 17-Oct-21 2:21 AM, Will Johnson wrote:
> https://books.google.com/books?id=bDlKAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA62&ots=_RBv5-gGBG&pg=PA62
>
> Close Roll AD 1479 states "That John Kemys survived both his wife Margaret and her son Maurice Denys This Maurice married Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling Knight of St Donat Castle Glamorgan "
>
>
> Note that *this author* (not me) has enqouted the entire sentence. I suppose it is possible that they only mean to enquote a smaller portion, but this is my source for what I said.
>

A paper read by Thomas Bush in 1898 to a group of provincial enthusiasts
is hardly an authoritative source for what is or is not in the close
roll for 1479, especially when the author clearly adjusts his translated
paraphrases given in quotation marks to suit the structure of his own
English sentences - NB on pp 61-62: 'A Gloucestershire Inquisition, A.D.
1477, shews:- "That John Kemys died ..."'; 'A Dorset Inquisition, 1477,
states:- "That John Kemys and Margaret ...'"; 'Close Roll, A.D. 1479,
states:- "That John Kemys survived ..."'. Do you suppose the syntax
represented by Bush can be found in his purported medieval sources, all
conveniently starting with "That ..."? Or the peculiar antiquarian
sidelight in a reference to John Kemys about whose daughter Maurice
Denys, the subject's step-son, had married?

There is little enough to go by on this matter, but I'm not sure what
confidence can be placed in the circumstance that Maurice Denys was
wealthy enough to marry a legitimate daughter of Edward Stradling - if
Denys was Stradling's ward and the latter had acquired the right to
arrange the former's marriage, what would have prevented the favouring
of an illegitimate daughter with a better marriage than could otherwise
be obtained for her?

Peter Stewart

On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 11:21:24 AM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> https://books.google.com/books?id=bDlKAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA62&ots=_RBv5-gGBG&pg=PA62
>
> Close Roll AD 1479 states "That John Kemys survived both his wife Margaret and her son Maurice Denys This Maurice married Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling Knight of St Donat Castle Glamorgan "
>
>
> Note that *this author* (not me) has enqouted the entire sentence. I suppose it is possible that they only mean to enquote a smaller portion, but this is my source for what I said.

Will, thank you for posting that link and Brad, thank you for the update! That's too bad that there was no matching record in the 1479 Close Roll. Also, Steve, thanks for sharing the information about the Berkley lines to Edward I - I only explored one previously.

I noticed that in some of the earlier discussions there were references to the images of the 1530 Dennis pedigree - would someone be able to share a copy of it (in high resolution, if possible)? I'd love to have a copy for my records and would be curious to take a closer look at some of the coat of arms in it. Many thanks!

On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 8:11:39 PM UTC-4, FemmeFenrir wrote:
> Will, thank you for posting that link and Brad, thank you for the update! That's too bad that there was no matching record in the 1479 Close Roll. Also, Steve, thanks for sharing the information about the Berkley lines to Edward I - I only explored one previously.
>
> I noticed that in some of the earlier discussions there were references to the images of the 1530 Dennis pedigree - would someone be able to share a copy of it (in high resolution, if possible)? I'd love to have a copy for my records and would be curious to take a closer look at some of the coat of arms in it. Many thanks!

Thank you Will and Brad, as well as all the others who contributed to the discussion.

Here is the link to the photos of the 1520 Dennis pedigree from The Family History Book by Stella Colwell (pg.15) and The Herald's Commemorative Exhibition 1484-1934 (plate XLIV).
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1LsZxKcS7r92l70RP89-s0kH3l1i18dh3

Maurice Denys' first wife is named as Johanna Stradlyng; however her coat of arms, a chevron between three roses, does not appear on the coat of arms of Sir Edward Stradling's grandson (https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/95669d86-7fe8-3762-a422-f55d267e97ce/Thomas-d1480-and-Elizabeth-d1533-Stradlinge/?field0=string&value0=stradling&field1=with_images&value1=1&index=3), although there was a somewhat similar Stradling arms variation: paly of six, on a chevron three cinquefoil (https://archive.org/details/memorialsofdanve00macn/page/n31/mode/2up).

Any insight on identifying these arms (chevron between three roses) would be welcome.

I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter, implying that she was legitimate and a heraldic heiress (i.e. she had no brothers), which might have implications for the possible maternity of Sir Walter. However, the assumption that the arms in the 4th quarter are those of his mother rests solely on the 1520 Dennis pedigree and should be confirmed by the College of Arms, along with the possibility of her being a heraldic heiress. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Denys_funerary_brass%2C_Saint_Mary_the_Virgin%2C_Olveston%2C_Gloucestershire%2C_England_-_20090920.jpg)

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 4:37:38 AM UTC-6, Andrew Z wrote:
> On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 8:11:39 PM UTC-4, FemmeFenrir wrote:
> > Will, thank you for posting that link and Brad, thank you for the update! That's too bad that there was no matching record in the 1479 Close Roll. Also, Steve, thanks for sharing the information about the Berkley lines to Edward I - I only explored one previously.
> >
> > I noticed that in some of the earlier discussions there were references to the images of the 1530 Dennis pedigree - would someone be able to share a copy of it (in high resolution, if possible)? I'd love to have a copy for my records and would be curious to take a closer look at some of the coat of arms in it. Many thanks!
> Thank you Will and Brad, as well as all the others who contributed to the discussion.
>
> Here is the link to the photos of the 1520 Dennis pedigree from The Family History Book by Stella Colwell (pg.15) and The Herald's Commemorative Exhibition 1484-1934 (plate XLIV).
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1LsZxKcS7r92l70RP89-s0kH3l1i18dh3
>
> Maurice Denys' first wife is named as Johanna Stradlyng; however her coat of arms, a chevron between three roses, does not appear on the coat of arms of Sir Edward Stradling's grandson (https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/95669d86-7fe8-3762-a422-f55d267e97ce/Thomas-d1480-and-Elizabeth-d1533-Stradlinge/?field0=string&value0=stradling&field1=with_images&value1=1&index=3), although there was a somewhat similar Stradling arms variation: paly of six, on a chevron three cinquefoil (https://archive.org/details/memorialsofdanve00macn/page/n31/mode/2up).
>
> Any insight on identifying these arms (chevron between three roses) would be welcome.
>
> I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter, implying that she was legitimate and a heraldic heiress (i.e. she had no brothers), which might have implications for the possible maternity of Sir Walter. However, the assumption that the arms in the 4th quarter are those of his mother rests solely on the 1520 Dennis pedigree and should be confirmed by the College of Arms, along with the possibility of her being a heraldic heiress. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Denys_funerary_brass%2C_Saint_Mary_the_Virgin%2C_Olveston%2C_Gloucestershire%2C_England_-_20090920.jpg)
Just for clarity, cinquefoils are in the rose family and may be confused with roses in arms (especially when quartered). I can't add to the overall discussion here, but the question should be "why are the arms differenced?" The answer might be with the order of succession. Was Edward the grandson the oldest grandson, etc.? Was his father the oldest son? If there were older brothers in either generation (depending on when they died), it might have forced the younger to assume a permanently differenced set of arms? Thus, you might have a pretty clear trail for the reason behind the "paly of six, on a chevron Three cinquefoil (roses). Okay, I'll go back to just reading what you guys say. Cheers,
Kevan