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interests / alt.language.latin / Re: Judus Obscurus

SubjectAuthor
* Judus ObscurusEd Cryer
+* Re: Judus ObscurusCDB
|`* Re: Judus ObscurusEd Cryer
| `* Re: Judus ObscurusBtraven
|  `- Re: Judus ObscurusEd Cryer
+* Re: Judus ObscurusBtraven
|`- Re: Judus ObscurusEd Cryer
`- Re: Judus ObscurusEd Cryer

1
Judus Obscurus

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From: ed...@somewhere.in.the.uk (Ed Cryer)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Judus Obscurus
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2022 19:52:12 +0100
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 by: Ed Cryer - Fri, 30 Sep 2022 18:52 UTC

Huic dufficultati aquae inducendae se addebant dua alia insolita; nam
locus sepulturae princeps a tergo templi proclivitate ascendit tam
praerupta quam ea tecti domus, atque temporibus praeteritis oppidum
spatio inusitato et religioso et domestico pravitatis adflictum est.
Quae res dictum procreaverunt; Shaston mirum esse tribus consolationibus
humanis nusquam alibi terrarum repertis. Sepultura enim propius caelum
attingebat quam templi turris, cervisia copiosa erat quam aqua, plures
feminae lascivae quam matronae honestae virginesque erant. Dicunt etiam
incolas post aetatem mediaevalem pauperiores fuisse quam ut sacerdotibus
possent stipendium persolvere, itaque templa diruere coacti sunt et Deo
publice adorando omnino abstinere; quam necessitatem inter pocula
lugebant diebus sacris in tabernis. Illa aetate Shastonienses (sic mihi
saltem videntur) sale facetiisque praevaluisse.

*****************

This difficulty in the water supply, together with two other odd facts,
namely, that the chief graveyard slopes up as steeply as a roof behind
the church, and that in former times the town passed through a curious
period of corruption, conventual and domestic, gave rise to the saying
that Shaston was remarkable for three consolations to man, such as the
world afforded not elsewhere. It was a place where the churchyard lay
nearer heaven than the church steeple, where beer was more plentiful
than water, and where there were more wanton women than honest wives and
maids. It is also said that after the middle ages the inhabitants were
too poor to pay their priests, and hence were compelled to pull down
their churches, and refrain altogether from the public worship of God; a
necessity which they bemoaned over their cups in the settles of their
inns on Sunday afternoons. In those days the Shastonians were apparently
not without a sense of humour.
(Jude The Obscure; Thomas Hardy)

Ed

Re: Judus Obscurus

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From: bellemar...@gmail.com (CDB)
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Subject: Re: Judus Obscurus
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2022 09:01:44 -0400
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 by: CDB - Sat, 1 Oct 2022 13:01 UTC

On 9/30/2022 2:52 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> Huic dufficultati aquae inducendae se addebant dua alia insolita; nam
> locus sepulturae princeps a tergo templi proclivitate ascendit tam
> praerupta quam ea tecti domus, atque temporibus praeteritis oppidum
> spatio inusitato et religioso et domestico pravitatis adflictum est.
> Quae res dictum procreaverunt; Shaston mirum esse tribus
> consolationibus humanis nusquam alibi terrarum repertis. Sepultura
> enim propius caelum attingebat quam templi turris, cervisia copiosa
> erat quam aqua, plures feminae lascivae quam matronae honestae
> virginesque erant. Dicunt etiam incolas post aetatem mediaevalem
> pauperiores fuisse quam ut sacerdotibus possent stipendium
> persolvere, itaque templa diruere coacti sunt et Deo publice adorando
> omnino abstinere; quam necessitatem inter pocula lugebant diebus
> sacris in tabernis. Illa aetate Shastonienses (sic mihi saltem
> videntur) sale facetiisque praevaluisse.
>
> *****************
>
> This difficulty in the water supply, together with two other odd
> facts, namely, that the chief graveyard slopes up as steeply as a
> roof behind the church, and that in former times the town passed
> through a curious period of corruption, conventual and domestic, gave
> rise to the saying that Shaston was remarkable for three consolations
> to man, such as the world afforded not elsewhere. It was a place
> where the churchyard lay nearer heaven than the church steeple, where
> beer was more plentiful than water, and where there were more wanton
> women than honest wives and maids. It is also said that after the
> middle ages the inhabitants were too poor to pay their priests, and
> hence were compelled to pull down their churches, and refrain
> altogether from the public worship of God; a necessity which they
> bemoaned over their cups in the settles of their inns on Sunday
> afternoons. In those days the Shastonians were apparently not without
> a sense of humour. (Jude The Obscure; Thomas Hardy)

Judus Obscurior? Very nice; the only thing I wondered about was whether
you would consider "fertur" for "dicunt".

--
And maybe "Judas" for Judus", but that could be my ignorance talking.

Re: Judus Obscurus

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Subject: Re: Judus Obscurus
From: caud...@gmail.com (Btraven)
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 by: Btraven - Sat, 1 Oct 2022 21:13 UTC

On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 1:52:25 PM UTC-5, Ed Cryer wrote:
> Huic dufficultati aquae inducendae se addebant dua alia insolita; nam
> locus sepulturae princeps a tergo templi proclivitate ascendit tam
> praerupta quam ea tecti domus, atque temporibus praeteritis oppidum
> spatio inusitato et religioso et domestico pravitatis adflictum est.
> Quae res dictum procreaverunt; Shaston mirum esse tribus consolationibus
> humanis nusquam alibi terrarum repertis. Sepultura enim propius caelum
> attingebat quam templi turris, cervisia copiosa erat quam aqua, plures
> feminae lascivae quam matronae honestae virginesque erant. Dicunt etiam
> incolas post aetatem mediaevalem pauperiores fuisse quam ut sacerdotibus
> possent stipendium persolvere, itaque templa diruere coacti sunt et Deo
> publice adorando omnino abstinere; quam necessitatem inter pocula
> lugebant diebus sacris in tabernis. Illa aetate Shastonienses (sic mihi
> saltem videntur) sale facetiisque praevaluisse.
>
> *****************
>
> This difficulty in the water supply, together with two other odd facts,
> namely, that the chief graveyard slopes up as steeply as a roof behind
> the church, and that in former times the town passed through a curious
> period of corruption, conventual and domestic, gave rise to the saying
> that Shaston was remarkable for three consolations to man, such as the
> world afforded not elsewhere. It was a place where the churchyard lay
> nearer heaven than the church steeple, where beer was more plentiful
> than water, and where there were more wanton women than honest wives and
> maids. It is also said that after the middle ages the inhabitants were
> too poor to pay their priests, and hence were compelled to pull down
> their churches, and refrain altogether from the public worship of God; a
> necessity which they bemoaned over their cups in the settles of their
> inns on Sunday afternoons. In those days the Shastonians were apparently
> not without a sense of humour.
> (Jude The Obscure; Thomas Hardy)
>
> Ed

Gratias ingentes tibi ago pro hac versione. Semper tibi seligis excerpta iucunda ad latinizanda. Ferme eadem sunt 'dicunt' et 'fertur' sed pro certo habeo praenomen illud 'Jude' e lingua Hebraica oriri. In L et S lego:

Jūdas, ae, or Jūda, indecl. m., = ιουδας.
I. Judah, son of Jacob and patriarch of one of the tribes of Israel : istae sunt familiae Juda, Vulg. Num. 1, 26: dixit Judas fratribus suis, id. Gen. 37, 26.—

B. Transf., the tribe of Judah, descendants of Judah : in diebus illis salvabitur Juda, Vulg. Jer. 23, 6.—Of the land inhabited by the tribe, Vulg. Judic. 10, 9 al.—

II. Jude or Judas, one of Christ's apostles, Vulg. Jud. 1, 1; id. Matt. 13, 55.—

III. Judas Iscariot, Sedul. Carm. 5, 38; Vulg. Matt. 10, 4; Juvenc. 4, 428.—

IV. Judas Machabæus, Vulg. Macc. 2, 4 et saep.

Ceterum ex hac radice nobis devenerunt nomina moderniora:

Judd Jud Juda Judah Judas Juddson Yehudah Yehuda Yehudi Judda Juddah Juddas Judge

Cura ut valeas.

p.s. Si tibi est copia scribendi et satis temporis et otii fac scriptitas interdum alio in foro. Ibi nos omnes oportet Leonem Latinum imitari (hoc est tantum versiones proponere) ne deinceps novae rixae oriantur. Ipse in animo habeo omnino omnia opera Arcadii illius Avellani (Mogyorossy) in archivum proponendi quasi ad usum delphini (hoc est macris ornata.

Re: Judus Obscurus

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From: ed...@somewhere.in.the.uk (Ed Cryer)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: Judus Obscurus
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2022 19:01:51 +0100
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 by: Ed Cryer - Sun, 2 Oct 2022 18:01 UTC

Btraven wrote:
> On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 1:52:25 PM UTC-5, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> Huic dufficultati aquae inducendae se addebant dua alia insolita; nam
>> locus sepulturae princeps a tergo templi proclivitate ascendit tam
>> praerupta quam ea tecti domus, atque temporibus praeteritis oppidum
>> spatio inusitato et religioso et domestico pravitatis adflictum est.
>> Quae res dictum procreaverunt; Shaston mirum esse tribus consolationibus
>> humanis nusquam alibi terrarum repertis. Sepultura enim propius caelum
>> attingebat quam templi turris, cervisia copiosa erat quam aqua, plures
>> feminae lascivae quam matronae honestae virginesque erant. Dicunt etiam
>> incolas post aetatem mediaevalem pauperiores fuisse quam ut sacerdotibus
>> possent stipendium persolvere, itaque templa diruere coacti sunt et Deo
>> publice adorando omnino abstinere; quam necessitatem inter pocula
>> lugebant diebus sacris in tabernis. Illa aetate Shastonienses (sic mihi
>> saltem videntur) sale facetiisque praevaluisse.
>>
>> *****************
>>
>> This difficulty in the water supply, together with two other odd facts,
>> namely, that the chief graveyard slopes up as steeply as a roof behind
>> the church, and that in former times the town passed through a curious
>> period of corruption, conventual and domestic, gave rise to the saying
>> that Shaston was remarkable for three consolations to man, such as the
>> world afforded not elsewhere. It was a place where the churchyard lay
>> nearer heaven than the church steeple, where beer was more plentiful
>> than water, and where there were more wanton women than honest wives and
>> maids. It is also said that after the middle ages the inhabitants were
>> too poor to pay their priests, and hence were compelled to pull down
>> their churches, and refrain altogether from the public worship of God; a
>> necessity which they bemoaned over their cups in the settles of their
>> inns on Sunday afternoons. In those days the Shastonians were apparently
>> not without a sense of humour.
>> (Jude The Obscure; Thomas Hardy)
>>
>> Ed
>
> Gratias ingentes tibi ago pro hac versione. Semper tibi seligis excerpta iucunda ad latinizanda. Ferme eadem sunt 'dicunt' et 'fertur' sed pro certo habeo praenomen illud 'Jude' e lingua Hebraica oriri. In L et S lego:
>
> Jūdas, ae, or Jūda, indecl. m., = ιουδας.
> I. Judah, son of Jacob and patriarch of one of the tribes of Israel : istae sunt familiae Juda, Vulg. Num. 1, 26: dixit Judas fratribus suis, id. Gen. 37, 26.—
>
> B. Transf., the tribe of Judah, descendants of Judah : in diebus illis salvabitur Juda, Vulg. Jer. 23, 6.—Of the land inhabited by the tribe, Vulg. Judic. 10, 9 al.—
>
> II. Jude or Judas, one of Christ's apostles, Vulg. Jud. 1, 1; id. Matt. 13, 55.—
>
> III. Judas Iscariot, Sedul. Carm. 5, 38; Vulg. Matt. 10, 4; Juvenc. 4, 428.—
>
> IV. Judas Machabæus, Vulg. Macc. 2, 4 et saep.
>
> Ceterum ex hac radice nobis devenerunt nomina moderniora:
>
> Judd Jud Juda Judah Judas Juddson Yehudah Yehuda Yehudi Judda Juddah Juddas Judge
>
> Cura ut valeas.
>
> p.s. Si tibi est copia scribendi et satis temporis et otii fac scriptitas interdum alio in foro. Ibi nos omnes oportet Leonem Latinum imitari (hoc est tantum versiones proponere) ne deinceps novae rixae oriantur. Ipse in animo habeo omnino omnia opera Arcadii illius Avellani (Mogyorossy) in archivum proponendi quasi ad usum delphini (hoc est macris ornata.
Iam seniori et plus otii habenti mihi est voluptati quos multos libros
non legi iunior nunc legere. Incipienti tamen numerus fuit grandis, et
uno lecto auget duobus tribusve aliis repertis. Praeterea Stephanus King
solus et nemine adiuvante librum novum paene menstruum edit, nedum
Antonium Doerr vel Hilariam Mantel commemorem vel illam libidinosam et
parum pudicam magistram stili Sapphici Melissam Broder.
Interdum locos purpureos inter paginas invenio, atque Latine reddere placet.
Istud alium forum meam mentem eludit. Illud illustre silentium regnat
tam diu, tum repente inundatio novae vitae; et nequeo causam
intellegere. Mea equidem studia oblectamentaque non sectatur.
Edus

Re: Judus Obscurus

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From: ed...@somewhere.in.the.uk (Ed Cryer)
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Subject: Re: Judus Obscurus
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 by: Ed Cryer - Sun, 2 Oct 2022 18:04 UTC

CDB wrote:
> On 9/30/2022 2:52 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> Huic dufficultati aquae inducendae se addebant dua alia insolita; nam
>>  locus sepulturae princeps a tergo templi proclivitate ascendit tam
>> praerupta quam ea tecti domus, atque temporibus praeteritis oppidum
>> spatio inusitato et religioso et domestico pravitatis adflictum est.
>>  Quae res dictum procreaverunt; Shaston mirum esse tribus
>> consolationibus humanis nusquam alibi terrarum repertis. Sepultura
>> enim propius caelum attingebat quam templi turris, cervisia copiosa
>> erat quam aqua, plures feminae lascivae quam matronae honestae
>> virginesque erant. Dicunt etiam incolas post aetatem mediaevalem
>> pauperiores fuisse quam ut sacerdotibus possent stipendium
>> persolvere, itaque templa diruere coacti sunt et Deo publice adorando
>> omnino abstinere; quam necessitatem inter pocula lugebant diebus
>> sacris in tabernis. Illa aetate Shastonienses (sic mihi saltem
>> videntur) sale facetiisque praevaluisse.
>>
>> *****************
>>
>> This difficulty in the water supply, together with two other odd
>> facts, namely, that the chief graveyard slopes up as steeply as a
>> roof behind the church, and that in former times the town passed
>> through a curious period of corruption, conventual and domestic, gave
>> rise to the saying that Shaston was remarkable for three consolations
>> to man, such as the world afforded not elsewhere. It was a place
>> where the churchyard lay nearer heaven than the church steeple, where
>> beer was more plentiful than water, and where there were more wanton
>> women than honest wives and maids. It is also said that after the
>> middle ages the inhabitants were too poor to pay their priests, and
>> hence were compelled to pull down their churches, and refrain
>> altogether from the public worship of God; a necessity which they
>> bemoaned over their cups in the settles of their inns on Sunday
>> afternoons. In those days the Shastonians were apparently not without
>> a sense of humour. (Jude The Obscure; Thomas Hardy)
>
> Judus Obscurior?  Very nice; the only thing I wondered about was whether
> you would consider "fertur" for "dicunt".
>
Yes, that has more of a classical feel to it.
Feruntur etiam incolae post aetatem mediaevalem pauperiores fuisse quam
ut (qui) possent ....
Although, there's an ode of Horace's that I've always admired; which
includes "dicar ... princeps Aeolium carmen ad Italos deduxisse modos".
I guess "ferar" wouldnt fit the metre.
As for "Judas", no. The implications of that name in Christian culture
don't fit Hardy's hero.
Ed

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From: ed...@somewhere.in.the.uk (Ed Cryer)
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Subject: Re: Judus Obscurus
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2022 21:51:08 +0100
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 by: Ed Cryer - Sun, 2 Oct 2022 20:51 UTC

Ed Cryer wrote:
> Huic dufficultati aquae inducendae se addebant dua alia insolita; nam
> locus sepulturae princeps a tergo templi proclivitate ascendit tam
> praerupta quam ea tecti domus, atque temporibus praeteritis oppidum
> spatio inusitato et religioso et domestico pravitatis adflictum est.
> Quae res dictum procreaverunt; Shaston mirum esse tribus consolationibus
> humanis nusquam alibi terrarum repertis. Sepultura enim propius caelum
> attingebat quam templi turris, cervisia copiosa erat quam aqua, plures
> feminae lascivae quam matronae honestae virginesque erant. Dicunt etiam
> incolas post aetatem mediaevalem pauperiores fuisse quam ut sacerdotibus
> possent stipendium persolvere, itaque templa diruere coacti sunt et Deo
> publice adorando omnino abstinere; quam necessitatem inter pocula
> lugebant diebus sacris in tabernis. Illa aetate Shastonienses (sic mihi
> saltem videntur) sale facetiisque praevaluisse.
>
> *****************
>
> This difficulty in the water supply, together with two other odd facts,
> namely, that the chief graveyard slopes up as steeply as a roof behind
> the church, and that in former times the town passed through a curious
> period of corruption, conventual and domestic, gave rise to the saying
> that Shaston was remarkable for three consolations to man, such as the
> world afforded not elsewhere. It was a place where the churchyard lay
> nearer heaven than the church steeple, where beer was more plentiful
> than water, and where there were more wanton women than honest wives and
> maids. It is also said that after the middle ages the inhabitants were
> too poor to pay their priests, and hence were compelled to pull down
> their churches, and refrain altogether from the public worship of God; a
> necessity which they bemoaned over their cups in the settles of their
> inns on Sunday afternoons. In those days the Shastonians were apparently
> not without a sense of humour.
> (Jude The Obscure; Thomas Hardy)
>
> Ed
>
>
>

Caupo tabernae qua habitabant, qui eos audiverat esse par incommodum,
dubitaverat quin nupti sane essent, praesertim cum uno vespere Arabellam
vidisset Judum osculantem postquam illa paulum biberat. Itaque eos
iubere emigrare decreverat, cum una nocte eam forte audivit Judum verbis
acerbis obiurgantem et tum calceum ad caput iacientem. Deinde vestigiis
matrimonii veri agnitis ratus eos esse par honestum, nil plus dixit.

The landlord of the lodging, who had heard that they were a queer
couple, had doubted if they were married at all, especially as he had
seen Arabella kiss Jude one evening when she had taken a little cordial;
and he was about to give them notice to quit, till by chance overhearing
her one night haranguing Jude in rattling terms, and ultimately flinging
a shoe at his head, he recognized the note of genuine wedlock; and
concluding that they must be respectable, said no more.

Re: Judus Obscurus

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Subject: Re: Judus Obscurus
From: caud...@gmail.com (Btraven)
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 by: Btraven - Wed, 5 Oct 2022 17:00 UTC

On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 1:06:02 PM UTC-5, Ed Cryer wrote:
> CDB wrote:
> > On 9/30/2022 2:52 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> >> Huic dufficultati aquae inducendae se addebant dua alia insolita; nam
> >> locus sepulturae princeps a tergo templi proclivitate ascendit tam
> >> praerupta quam ea tecti domus, atque temporibus praeteritis oppidum
> >> spatio inusitato et religioso et domestico pravitatis adflictum est.
> >> Quae res dictum procreaverunt; Shaston mirum esse tribus
> >> consolationibus humanis nusquam alibi terrarum repertis. Sepultura
> >> enim propius caelum attingebat quam templi turris, cervisia copiosa
> >> erat quam aqua, plures feminae lascivae quam matronae honestae
> >> virginesque erant. Dicunt etiam incolas post aetatem mediaevalem
> >> pauperiores fuisse quam ut sacerdotibus possent stipendium
> >> persolvere, itaque templa diruere coacti sunt et Deo publice adorando
> >> omnino abstinere; quam necessitatem inter pocula lugebant diebus
> >> sacris in tabernis. Illa aetate Shastonienses (sic mihi saltem
> >> videntur) sale facetiisque praevaluisse.
> >>
> >> *****************
> >>
> >> This difficulty in the water supply, together with two other odd
> >> facts, namely, that the chief graveyard slopes up as steeply as a
> >> roof behind the church, and that in former times the town passed
> >> through a curious period of corruption, conventual and domestic, gave
> >> rise to the saying that Shaston was remarkable for three consolations
> >> to man, such as the world afforded not elsewhere. It was a place
> >> where the churchyard lay nearer heaven than the church steeple, where
> >> beer was more plentiful than water, and where there were more wanton
> >> women than honest wives and maids. It is also said that after the
> >> middle ages the inhabitants were too poor to pay their priests, and
> >> hence were compelled to pull down their churches, and refrain
> >> altogether from the public worship of God; a necessity which they
> >> bemoaned over their cups in the settles of their inns on Sunday
> >> afternoons. In those days the Shastonians were apparently not without
> >> a sense of humour. (Jude The Obscure; Thomas Hardy)
> >
> > Judus Obscurior? Very nice; the only thing I wondered about was whether
> > you would consider "fertur" for "dicunt".
> >
> Yes, that has more of a classical feel to it.
>
> Feruntur etiam incolae post aetatem mediaevalem pauperiores fuisse quam
> ut (qui) possent ....
>
> Although, there's an ode of Horace's that I've always admired; which
> includes "dicar ... princeps Aeolium carmen ad Italos deduxisse modos".
> I guess "ferar" wouldnt fit the metre.
>
> As for "Judas", no. The implications of that name in Christian culture
> don't fit Hardy's hero.
>
> Ed

In cultu Dei Anglophonico fortasse habet nomen Judae aliquid suspicionis sed non in litteris Latinis. Nomen 'Jude' anglicum est procul dubio Judas Latine (filius Jacobi, apostolus qui epistolam Judae , librum paenultimum Novi Testamenti, necnon alii multi qui non erant cognominis Iscariota nomen Judae habebant. Etiam est insolita echo inter 'scur' illius 'obscurus' et 'scar' in cognomine locativo (homo e Kerioth).

At ipse fabulam romanensem non legi neque multum de protagonistae indole scio. Partim exemplar eius fuit Hardy ipse: ambo erant fabri operarii qui litteris classicis operam noctu dabant.

vale

Re: Judus Obscurus

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From: ed...@somewhere.in.the.uk (Ed Cryer)
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Subject: Re: Judus Obscurus
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2022 11:23:16 +0100
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 by: Ed Cryer - Thu, 6 Oct 2022 10:23 UTC

Btraven wrote:
> On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 1:06:02 PM UTC-5, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> CDB wrote:
>>> On 9/30/2022 2:52 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>> Huic dufficultati aquae inducendae se addebant dua alia insolita; nam
>>>> locus sepulturae princeps a tergo templi proclivitate ascendit tam
>>>> praerupta quam ea tecti domus, atque temporibus praeteritis oppidum
>>>> spatio inusitato et religioso et domestico pravitatis adflictum est.
>>>> Quae res dictum procreaverunt; Shaston mirum esse tribus
>>>> consolationibus humanis nusquam alibi terrarum repertis. Sepultura
>>>> enim propius caelum attingebat quam templi turris, cervisia copiosa
>>>> erat quam aqua, plures feminae lascivae quam matronae honestae
>>>> virginesque erant. Dicunt etiam incolas post aetatem mediaevalem
>>>> pauperiores fuisse quam ut sacerdotibus possent stipendium
>>>> persolvere, itaque templa diruere coacti sunt et Deo publice adorando
>>>> omnino abstinere; quam necessitatem inter pocula lugebant diebus
>>>> sacris in tabernis. Illa aetate Shastonienses (sic mihi saltem
>>>> videntur) sale facetiisque praevaluisse.
>>>>
>>>> *****************
>>>>
>>>> This difficulty in the water supply, together with two other odd
>>>> facts, namely, that the chief graveyard slopes up as steeply as a
>>>> roof behind the church, and that in former times the town passed
>>>> through a curious period of corruption, conventual and domestic, gave
>>>> rise to the saying that Shaston was remarkable for three consolations
>>>> to man, such as the world afforded not elsewhere. It was a place
>>>> where the churchyard lay nearer heaven than the church steeple, where
>>>> beer was more plentiful than water, and where there were more wanton
>>>> women than honest wives and maids. It is also said that after the
>>>> middle ages the inhabitants were too poor to pay their priests, and
>>>> hence were compelled to pull down their churches, and refrain
>>>> altogether from the public worship of God; a necessity which they
>>>> bemoaned over their cups in the settles of their inns on Sunday
>>>> afternoons. In those days the Shastonians were apparently not without
>>>> a sense of humour. (Jude The Obscure; Thomas Hardy)
>>>
>>> Judus Obscurior? Very nice; the only thing I wondered about was whether
>>> you would consider "fertur" for "dicunt".
>>>
>> Yes, that has more of a classical feel to it.
>>
>> Feruntur etiam incolae post aetatem mediaevalem pauperiores fuisse quam
>> ut (qui) possent ....
>>
>> Although, there's an ode of Horace's that I've always admired; which
>> includes "dicar ... princeps Aeolium carmen ad Italos deduxisse modos".
>> I guess "ferar" wouldnt fit the metre.
>>
>> As for "Judas", no. The implications of that name in Christian culture
>> don't fit Hardy's hero.
>>
>> Ed
>
> In cultu Dei Anglophonico fortasse habet nomen Judae aliquid suspicionis sed non in litteris Latinis. Nomen 'Jude' anglicum est procul dubio Judas Latine (filius Jacobi, apostolus qui epistolam Judae , librum paenultimum Novi Testamenti, necnon alii multi qui non erant cognominis Iscariota nomen Judae habebant. Etiam est insolita echo inter 'scur' illius 'obscurus' et 'scar' in cognomine locativo (homo e Kerioth).
>
> At ipse fabulam romanensem non legi neque multum de protagonistae indole scio. Partim exemplar eius fuit Hardy ipse: ambo erant fabri operarii qui litteris classicis operam noctu dabant.
>
> vale

Iam librum ad finem perlegi. Eum esse primam modernam fabulam romanensem
alicubi legi; nunc scio quare sic iudicetur. Differt maxime ab aliis sui
temporis.
Jude The Obscure 1894
Dracula 1897
War of The Worlds 1898
Judus Obscurus mihi videtur veluti a D H Lawrence scriptus vel a Thoma
Mann; ad aetatem posteriorem pertinet. Paulum de Hardie et eius libris
scio, itaque non possum dicere quatenus aliis similis sit, quot
quaestiones alibi tractatae in eo inveniantur. Sed praecipue me percutit
matrimonium et quomodo id problemata hominibus creet; qui festinanter
nubit, otio paenitet. Sunt etiam multa adversus societatem civilem et
eius quasi carcerem quae Fredericus Nietzsche incessivit; matrimonium
autem festinanter contractum in medio stat.

Edus

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