On Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:08:15 -0700, Mack A. Damia wrote:

> charlie in British English
>
> NOUN 1. British informal a silly person; fool

In 1967 I was in Westminster Abbey, and a kid, aged about 10, drew his
friend's attention to an effigy of a bloke propped up on his elbow by
saying, "Cor, loo' a' tha' Charlie!"

The plural, in SAfE at least, sometimes refers to a woman's breasts. "I
spilt hot coffee on my charlies."

I never thought of it as AmE.

--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

On 14/09/2021 04:58, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:08:15 -0700, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>
>> charlie in British English
>>
>> NOUN 1. British informal a silly person; fool
>
> In 1967 I was in Westminster Abbey, and a kid, aged about 10, drew his
> friend's attention to an effigy of a bloke propped up on his elbow by
> saying, "Cor, loo' a' tha' Charlie!"

How can you be certain that his friend's name wasn't Charlie? (I had a
schoolfriend who was called Charlie. When he was in his mid-teens, he
decided he did not want to be called that any more, because of the
negative connotations. Henceforth we were to call him 'Charles'. )

>
> The plural, in SAfE at least, sometimes refers to a woman's breasts. "I
> spilt hot coffee on my charlies."
>
> I never thought of it as AmE.
>
>
>
>

On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:47:28 +0200, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 14/09/2021 04:58, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:08:15 -0700, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>
>>> charlie in British English
>>>
>>> NOUN 1. British informal a silly person; fool
>>
>> In 1967 I was in Westminster Abbey, and a kid, aged about 10, drew his
>> friend's attention to an effigy of a bloke propped up on his elbow by
>> saying, "Cor, loo' a' tha' Charlie!"
>
>How can you be certain that his friend's name wasn't Charlie? (I had a
>schoolfriend who was called Charlie. When he was in his mid-teens, he
>decided he did not want to be called that any more, because of the
>negative connotations. Henceforth we were to call him 'Charles'. )

If his friend's name had been Charlie, his intonation would have been
different, and he would have said, "Cor, loo' a' tha', Charlie!" with
the first syllable of "Charlie" in a slightly higher tone. English
isn't as tonal as Chinese or Zulu, but it does use tones.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:47:28 +0200, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 14/09/2021 04:58, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:08:15 -0700, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>
>>> charlie in British English
>>>
>>> NOUN 1. British informal a silly person; fool
>>
>> In 1967 I was in Westminster Abbey, and a kid, aged about 10, drew his
>> friend's attention to an effigy of a bloke propped up on his elbow by
>> saying, "Cor, loo' a' tha' Charlie!"
>
>How can you be certain that his friend's name wasn't Charlie? (I had a
>schoolfriend who was called Charlie. When he was in his mid-teens, he
>decided he did not want to be called that any more, because of the
>negative connotations. Henceforth we were to call him 'Charles'. )

If his friend's name had been Charlie, his intonation would have been
different, and he would have said, "Cor, loo' a' tha', Charlie!" with
the first syllable of "Charlie" in a slightly higher tone. English
isn't as tonal as Chinese or Zulu, but it does use tones.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 9/27/2021 10:03 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:47:28 +0200, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>>On 14/09/2021 04:58, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:08:15 -0700, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>
>>>> charlie in British English
>>>>
>>>> NOUN 1. British informal a silly person; fool
>>>
>>> In 1967 I was in Westminster Abbey, and a kid, aged about 10, drew his
>>> friend's attention to an effigy of a bloke propped up on his elbow by
>>> saying, "Cor, loo' a' tha' Charlie!"
>>
>>How can you be certain that his friend's name wasn't Charlie? (I had a
>>schoolfriend who was called Charlie. When he was in his mid-teens, he
>>decided he did not want to be called that any more, because of the
>>negative connotations. Henceforth we were to call him 'Charles'. )
>
> If his friend's name had been Charlie, his intonation would have been
> different, and he would have said, "Cor, loo' a' tha', Charlie!" with
> the first syllable of "Charlie" in a slightly higher tone. English
> isn't as tonal as Chinese or Zulu, but it does use tones.

I known nothing about Zulu, but I know a little about Chinese, since I
studied it before I vacationed in China 20 years ago.

Yes, English uses tones, but in a way that's completely different from
the way Chinese uses it. In Chinese a different tone completely changes
the meaning of a word. So, to take a very common example, the word "ma"
can mean "mother," "hemp," "horse" or "scold," depending on which tone
it's spoken with. English tones do nothing like this. They are typically
used for emphasis or to differentiate statements from question.

--
Ken

* Ken Blake:

> On 9/27/2021 10:03 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> > English
> > isn't as tonal as Chinese or Zulu, but it does use tones.

> Yes, English uses tones, but in a way that's completely different from
> the way Chinese uses it.

Thanks, I wanted to write something to that effect.

> In Chinese a different tone completely changes
> the meaning of a word. So, to take a very common example, the word "ma"
> can mean "mother," "hemp," "horse" or "scold," depending on which tone
> it's spoken with. English tones do nothing like this. They are typically
> used for emphasis or to differentiate statements from question.

And languages like Chinese have that, too. That's why it's a good idea
to use different words for those two things. Linguists call one thing
"tone", the other "intonation".

--
Young people aren't short of messages, but of a sense for
interconnections.
-- Helen Feng [my translation from German]

On 28/09/2021 18:04, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 10:03 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:47:28 +0200, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/09/2021 04:58, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:08:15 -0700, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> charlie in British English
>>>>>
>>>>> NOUN 1.  British informal a silly person; fool
>>>>
>>>> In 1967 I was in Westminster Abbey, and a kid, aged about 10, drew
>>>> his friend's attention to an effigy  of a bloke propped up on his
>>>> elbow by saying, "Cor, loo' a' tha' Charlie!"
>>>
>>> How can you be certain that his friend's name wasn't Charlie? (I had a
>>> schoolfriend who was called Charlie. When he was in his mid-teens, he
>>> decided he did not want to be called that any more, because of the
>>> negative connotations. Henceforth we were to call him 'Charles'. )
>>
>> If his friend's name had been Charlie, his intonation would have been
>> different, and he would have said, "Cor, loo' a' tha', Charlie!" with
>> the first syllable of "Charlie" in a slightly higher tone. English
>> isn't as tonal as Chinese or Zulu, but it does use tones.
>
>
>
> I known nothing about Zulu, but I know a little about Chinese, since I
> studied it before I vacationed in China 20 years ago.
>
>
> Yes, English uses tones, but in a way that's completely different from
> the way Chinese uses it. In Chinese a different tone completely changes
> the meaning of a word. So, to take a very common example, the word "ma"
> can mean "mother," "hemp," "horse" or "scold," depending on which tone
> it's spoken with. English tones do nothing like this. They are typically
> used for emphasis or to differentiate statements from question.
>

I get what Steve is saying however, without having to invoke either
Chinese or Zulu . The important punctuation mark in his rendition of
Cockney English is the comma after "loo' a' tha'". Without it, he is
calling someone else a Charlie. With it, he is talking to someone called
Charlie.

On 29/09/21 03:04, Ken Blake wrote:
>
> Yes, English uses tones, but in a way that's completely different from
> the way Chinese uses it. In Chinese a different tone completely changes
> the meaning of a word. So, to take a very common example, the word "ma"
> can mean "mother," "hemp," "horse" or "scold," depending on which tone
> it's spoken with. English tones do nothing like this. They are typically
> used for emphasis or to differentiate statements from question.

I think of Chinese tones as a way of expanding the number of available
vowels.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org