1. Latin [B] (in Guberno) --> O.F. [V] ---- is this a case of (lenition) "softening" or "weakening" ?

2. Are there other similar examples ?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/govern#Etymology
Etymology
From Middle English governen, governe, from Anglo-Norman and Old French governer, guverner, from Latin gubernō, from Ancient Greek κυβερνάω (kubernáō, “I steer, drive, govern”).

henh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> 1. Latin [B] (in Guberno) --> O.F. [V] ---- is this a case of (lenition) "softening" or "weakening" ?
>
>
> 2. Are there other similar examples ?
>
>
>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/govern#Etymology
> Etymology
> From Middle English governen, governe, from Anglo-Norman and Old French governer, guverner, from Latin gubernō, from Ancient Greek κυβερνάω (kubernáō, “I steer, drive, govern”).
Listening to foreigners trying to speak English is a linguistic
education to a thoughtful man. You soon find out that Russian has no
definite or indefinite article, that German has a strange word order,
that the French tend to speak through their noses, and that Japanese
people have trouble with "l" and "r".
The rules of their native language and the palate usage predominate.
The Koine Greek carried far and wide by the soldiers of Alexander of
Macedon and adopted in conquered territories, must have had all kinds of
different pronunciations in their wake. The Alexandrines tried to
standardise it with diacritics for written texts. But "b" is labial,
pronounced with a slight explosion through lips, while "v" is fricative,
pronounced with vibration of vocal chords.
It's not a one way shift, historically speaking. It's more a product of
different palates being attuned to different usages.
This website explains what it calls "Betacism", shift from b to v; but,
of course, that's all based on written texts. The speakers were doing it
long before it appeared in writing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betacism
Most modern languages can provide examples. German has "haben", "leben"
and "lieben" for our have, live and love.
Ed

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 3:03:11 AM UTC-7, Ed Cryer wrote:
> henh...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > 1. Latin [B] (in Guberno) --> O.F. [V] ---- is this a case of (lenition) "softening" or "weakening" ?
> >
> >
> > 2. Are there other similar examples ?
> >
> >
> >
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/govern#Etymology
> > Etymology
> > From Middle English governen, governe, from Anglo-Norman and Old French governer, guverner, from Latin gubernō, from Ancient Greek κυβερνάω (kubernáō, “I steer, drive, govern”).

> Listening to foreigners trying to speak English is a linguistic
> education to a thoughtful man. You soon find out that Russian has no
> definite or indefinite article, that German has a strange word order,
> that the French tend to speak through their noses, and that Japanese
> people have trouble with "l" and "r".
> The rules of their native language and the palate usage predominate.
>
> The Koine Greek carried far and wide by the soldiers of Alexander of
> Macedon and adopted in conquered territories, must have had all kinds of
> different pronunciations in their wake. The Alexandrines tried to
> standardise it with diacritics for written texts. But "b" is labial,
> pronounced with a slight explosion through lips, while "v" is fricative,
> pronounced with vibration of vocal chords.
>
> It's not a one way shift, historically speaking. It's more a product of
> different palates being attuned to different usages.
>
> This website explains what it calls "Betacism", shift from b to v; but,
> of course, that's all based on written texts. The speakers were doing it
> long before it appeared in writing.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betacism
>
> Most modern languages can provide examples. German has "haben", "leben"
> and "lieben" for our have, live and love.
>
> Ed

thanks!

re: Listening to foreigners speak English

one phenomenon that has interested me is why Frenchmen say things with extra THE ' s

------ i love the salad

------ he chases the women

___________________________

as for lenition... (which is so common in Irish)

(is this common in Irish English (?))...

some ppl say /kish/ for Kiss. /yesh/ for Yes

---------------- which may be a form of lenition.

V doesn't seem more [sonorous] than B,
but /sh/ seems more [sonorous] than /s/

_______________________

i'm still wondering if there's another example in English (or French, German)
like the Eng. Gubernatorial --- with a B

(which reminds me)
Tavern in Spanish is Taberna -- which sounds like [Don't Eat] in Jp.

_______________________

re: Govern, Governor --and-- Gubernatorial

it's as if ...
if there were a philosopher named McGovern,

the adj. for his ideas may be [McGubernian] with a B

henh...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 3:03:11 AM UTC-7, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> henh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> 1. Latin [B] (in Guberno) --> O.F. [V] ---- is this a case of (lenition) "softening" or "weakening" ?
>>>
>>>
>>> 2. Are there other similar examples ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/govern#Etymology
>>> Etymology
>>> From Middle English governen, governe, from Anglo-Norman and Old French governer, guverner, from Latin gubernō, from Ancient Greek κυβερνάω (kubernáō, “I steer, drive, govern”).
>
>
>> Listening to foreigners trying to speak English is a linguistic
>> education to a thoughtful man. You soon find out that Russian has no
>> definite or indefinite article, that German has a strange word order,
>> that the French tend to speak through their noses, and that Japanese
>> people have trouble with "l" and "r".
>> The rules of their native language and the palate usage predominate.
>>
>> The Koine Greek carried far and wide by the soldiers of Alexander of
>> Macedon and adopted in conquered territories, must have had all kinds of
>> different pronunciations in their wake. The Alexandrines tried to
>> standardise it with diacritics for written texts. But "b" is labial,
>> pronounced with a slight explosion through lips, while "v" is fricative,
>> pronounced with vibration of vocal chords.
>>
>> It's not a one way shift, historically speaking. It's more a product of
>> different palates being attuned to different usages.
>>
>> This website explains what it calls "Betacism", shift from b to v; but,
>> of course, that's all based on written texts. The speakers were doing it
>> long before it appeared in writing.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betacism
>>
>> Most modern languages can provide examples. German has "haben", "leben"
>> and "lieben" for our have, live and love.
>>
>> Ed
>
>
> thanks!
>
> re: Listening to foreigners speak English
>
> one phenomenon that has interested me is why Frenchmen say things with extra THE ' s
>
> ------ i love the salad
>
> ------ he chases the women
>
> ___________________________
>
> as for lenition... (which is so common in Irish)
>
> (is this common in Irish English (?))...
>
> some ppl say /kish/ for Kiss. /yesh/ for Yes
>
> ---------------- which may be a form of lenition.
>
>
> V doesn't seem more [sonorous] than B,
> but /sh/ seems more [sonorous] than /s/
>
>
> _______________________
>
> i'm still wondering if there's another example in English (or French, German)
> like the Eng. Gubernatorial --- with a B
>
>
> (which reminds me)
> Tavern in Spanish is Taberna -- which sounds like [Don't Eat] in Jp.
>
> _______________________
>
> re: Govern, Governor --and-- Gubernatorial
>
>
> it's as if ...
> if there were a philosopher named McGovern,
>
> the adj. for his ideas may be [McGubernian] with a B
>
Don't trust Frenchmen. They're only after your body.
They might seduce you with the charm of Casanova, but they'll disappear
next day.
You want a lover with staying power, who'll be there again and again.
Find an Englishman. They're the best.
Ed