On 11/9/2023 9:10 AM, Gary wrote:

>
> Here's an amusing (to me) observation -
> You and Ed are the most vocal supporters here of EVs, yet neither of
you have one. What are you waiting for?
>
> Another observation - of all of RFC, only Carol has gone solar and
only John has had an EV.
>
> Talk is cheap. Actions speak loud.
>

If I still had two cars, one would be an EV. Right now it does not suit
my needs but it will in a few years. I've said a few times, it is
evolving and there will be breakthroughs. We will gain as people keep
using where it works, but we don't move forward if everyone just bashes
and ignores.

Solar panels are a good thing too, if you can justify them. Carol
spends $5400 a year on electricity. Last year I spend $1100. She
mentioned she still owes about $5k so the cost was probably double that.
I won't live long enough to get the payback.

Sheldon used to go on about his instant hot water heater and how it
saves a lot of money. Much more efficient than keeping 40 gallons of
water hot. I would have to spend at least $1200 to $1600 for one of
those. I use gas for cooking, grilling, drying, hot water. My total
gas use for all of that is about $8 a month. Just hot water alone, his
system would save me maybe $2? Yep, payback in only 50 years or so.

EVs are not right for everyone right now but they are for many. You
have to assess your needs and look at the facts. Most cars are used for
low mileage local commutes so a range of 250 to 300 miles is fine and if
you can have a home charger, you'll never be caught short. When I buy
mine, range will probably be 600 miles.

On 2023-11-09 10:20 a.m., Ed P wrote:
> On 11/9/2023 9:10 AM, Gary wrote:
>
> >
> > Here's an amusing (to me) observation -
> > You and Ed are the most vocal supporters here of EVs, yet neither of
> you have one. What are you waiting for?
> >
> > Another observation - of all of RFC, only Carol has gone solar and
> only John has had an EV.
> >
> > Talk is cheap. Actions speak loud.
> >
>
> If I still had two cars, one would be an EV.  Right now it does not suit
> my needs but it will in a few years.  I've said a few times, it is
> evolving and there will be breakthroughs.  We will gain as people keep
> using where it works, but we don't move forward if everyone just bashes
> and ignores.
>
> Solar panels are a good thing too, if you can justify them.  Carol
> spends $5400 a year on electricity.  Last year I spend $1100.  She
> mentioned she still owes about $5k so the cost was probably double that.
>  I won't live long enough to get the payback.
>
But payback depends on where you live. Your gas and electricity prices
appear to be absurdly cheap. Mine are higher but then there are add-ons
like transmission fees and municipal fees that make up two-thirds of my
power bills.

On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 11:20:12 AM UTC-6, Ed P wrote:
>
> Solar panels are a good thing too, if you can justify them. Carol
> spends $5400 a year on electricity. Last year I spend $1100. She
> mentioned she still owes about $5k so the cost was probably double that.
> I won't live long enough to get the payback.
>
I had looked into solar panels two or three times, but the price was exorbitant.
I, also, would not live long enough to get the payback.
>
> Sheldon used to go on about his instant hot water heater and how it
> saves a lot of money. Much more efficient than keeping 40 gallons of
> water hot. I would have to spend at least $1200 to $1600 for one of
> those.
>
I think your estimate for an instant hot water heater is very conservative.
Generally, an additional electrical panel dedicated to the heater is also
required at an additional cost. Plus, the warranty for those is no better
than a stand-alone conventional water heater. Power failure and you have
no hot water is another consideration.
>
> I use gas for cooking, grilling, drying, hot water. My total
> gas use for all of that is about $8 a month. Just hot water alone, his
> system would save me maybe $2? Yep, payback in only 50 years or so.
>
Gas is used here for cooking, heating, and hot water. My only gripe with
gas heat is the furnace is powered by an electronic ignition. No electrical
power, no heat. GRRRRRRRRR

On 2023-11-09 2:39 p.m., itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net wrote:
>
> Gas is used here for cooking, heating, and hot water. My only gripe with
> gas heat is the furnace is powered by an electronic ignition. No electrical
> power, no heat. GRRRRRRRRR

I have natural gas heat and hot water. The furnace is forced air, so
without electricity there is no circulation. My water is from a well and
a cistern. If the power is out there is no pump on the pressure system,
so no running water.

On 2023-11-09 12:50 p.m., Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2023-11-09 2:39 p.m., itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net wrote:
>>
>> Gas is used here for cooking, heating, and hot water.  My only gripe with
>> gas heat is the furnace is powered by an electronic ignition.  No
>> electrical
>> power, no heat.  GRRRRRRRRR
>
>
> I have natural gas heat and hot water. The furnace is forced air, so
> without electricity there is no circulation. My water is from a well and
> a cistern. If the power is out there is no pump on the pressure system,
> so no running water.
>
I think that these are called "first world problems" :-)

On Thu, 9 Nov 2023 13:51:07 -0700, Graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:

>On 2023-11-09 12:50 p.m., Dave Smith wrote:
>> On 2023-11-09 2:39 p.m., itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net wrote:
>>>
>>> Gas is used here for cooking, heating, and hot water.  My only gripe with
>>> gas heat is the furnace is powered by an electronic ignition.  No
>>> electrical
>>> power, no heat.  GRRRRRRRRR
>>
>> I have natural gas heat and hot water. The furnace is forced air, so
>> without electricity there is no circulation. My water is from a well and
>> a cistern. If the power is out there is no pump on the pressure system,
>> so no running water.
>>
>I think that these are called "first world problems" :-)

In 2021, we had no power for 10 days after an epic flood. I used a
hose and a watering can to carry (rain) water from our tanks into the
house.

On 2023-11-09, itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net <itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 11:20:12 AM UTC-6, Ed P wrote:
>>
>> Solar panels are a good thing too, if you can justify them. Carol
>> spends $5400 a year on electricity. Last year I spend $1100. She
>> mentioned she still owes about $5k so the cost was probably double that.
>> I won't live long enough to get the payback.
>>
> I had looked into solar panels two or three times, but the price was exorbitant.
> I, also, would not live long enough to get the payback.
>>
>> Sheldon used to go on about his instant hot water heater and how it
>> saves a lot of money. Much more efficient than keeping 40 gallons of
>> water hot. I would have to spend at least $1200 to $1600 for one of
>> those.
>>
> I think your estimate for an instant hot water heater is very conservative.
> Generally, an additional electrical panel dedicated to the heater is also
> required

Really? Why? You can get them that run on gas. In any event, we
have enough spare capacity in our electrical panel for an electric
water heater and perhaps a ground-loop heat pump HVAC system.

> at an additional cost. Plus, the warranty for those is no better
> than a stand-alone conventional water heater. Power failure and you have
> no hot water is another consideration.
>>
>> I use gas for cooking, grilling, drying, hot water. My total
>> gas use for all of that is about $8 a month. Just hot water alone, his
>> system would save me maybe $2? Yep, payback in only 50 years or so.
>>
> Gas is used here for cooking, heating, and hot water. My only gripe with
> gas heat is the furnace is powered by an electronic ignition. No electrical
> power, no heat. GRRRRRRRRR

Get a generator. It doesn't have to be a big one.

--
Cindy Hamilton

On 2023-11-09, Dave Smith <adavid.smith@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On 2023-11-09 2:39 p.m., itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net wrote:
>>
>> Gas is used here for cooking, heating, and hot water. My only gripe with
>> gas heat is the furnace is powered by an electronic ignition. No electrical
>> power, no heat. GRRRRRRRRR
>
>
> I have natural gas heat and hot water. The furnace is forced air, so
> without electricity there is no circulation. My water is from a well and
> a cistern. If the power is out there is no pump on the pressure system,
> so no running water.

I'm surprised you don't have a generator.

--
Cindy Hamilton

On 2023-11-09 3:51 p.m., Graham wrote:
> On 2023-11-09 12:50 p.m., Dave Smith wrote:
>> On 2023-11-09 2:39 p.m., itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net wrote:
>>>
>>> Gas is used here for cooking, heating, and hot water.  My only gripe
>>> with
>>> gas heat is the furnace is powered by an electronic ignition.  No
>>> electrical
>>> power, no heat.  GRRRRRRRRR
>>
>>
>> I have natural gas heat and hot water. The furnace is forced air, so
>> without electricity there is no circulation. My water is from a well
>> and a cistern. If the power is out there is no pump on the pressure
>> system, so no running water.
>>
> I think that these are called "first world problems" :-)

True, but when you have grown up with heat and running water a power
outage makes you feel like you are in the third world.

On 2023-11-09 5:02 p.m., Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On 2023-11-09, Dave Smith <adavid.smith@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> On 2023-11-09 2:39 p.m., itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net wrote:
>>>
>>> Gas is used here for cooking, heating, and hot water. My only gripe with
>>> gas heat is the furnace is powered by an electronic ignition. No electrical
>>> power, no heat. GRRRRRRRRR
>>
>>
>> I have natural gas heat and hot water. The furnace is forced air, so
>> without electricity there is no circulation. My water is from a well and
>> a cistern. If the power is out there is no pump on the pressure system,
>> so no running water.
>
> I'm surprised you don't have a generator.
>

So am I ;-) It might get complicated in my case because the water
pressure system is 220. FWIW, I had 110 pressure systems from years and
had to change them frequently. Many years ago yet another pressure
system pump crapped out and I accidentally picked up a 220 pump. My
father came over and ran a 220 line for it. When that pump gave up the
ghost I had a professional replace it and he installed a Gould. That
would have been 30 years ago and that pump is still working great. It
has lasted longer than the previous four combined.

On Thu, 9 Nov 2023 17:22:59 -0500, Dave Smith
<adavid.smith@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>On 2023-11-09 3:51 p.m., Graham wrote:
>> On 2023-11-09 12:50 p.m., Dave Smith wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-09 2:39 p.m., itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Gas is used here for cooking, heating, and hot water.  My only gripe
>>>> with
>>>> gas heat is the furnace is powered by an electronic ignition.  No
>>>> electrical
>>>> power, no heat.  GRRRRRRRRR
>>>
>>>
>>> I have natural gas heat and hot water. The furnace is forced air, so
>>> without electricity there is no circulation. My water is from a well
>>> and a cistern. If the power is out there is no pump on the pressure
>>> system, so no running water.
>>>
>> I think that these are called "first world problems" :-)
>
>True, but when you have grown up with heat and running water a power
>outage makes you feel like you are in the third world.

I lived out by the sea away from Halifax and it was a near dead hit
for Hurricane Juan 20 odd years ago and I had no power to run the
water pump from the well, nor any power in the house for ten days.

I decided it was time to sell and buy a condo but if I had stayed I
would have bought a generator and had it installed. Most people out
there now have generators including my daughter, they barely notice if
there is a power outage now.

On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 4:02:39 PM UTC-6, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> On 2023-11-09, itsjoan...@webtv.net <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Sheldon used to go on about his instant hot water heater and how it
> >> saves a lot of money. Much more efficient than keeping 40 gallons of
> >> water hot. I would have to spend at least $1200 to $1600 for one of
> >> those.
> >>
> > I think your estimate for an instant hot water heater is very conservative.
> > Generally, an additional electrical panel dedicated to the heater is also
> > required.
> >
> Really? Why? You can get them that run on gas. In any event, we
> have enough spare capacity in our electrical panel for an electric
> water heater and perhaps a ground-loop heat pump HVAC system.
>
The national average for an installed tankless water heater is a bit over $2500
with a natural gas model being higher.
> >
> > Gas is used here for cooking, heating, and hot water. My only gripe with
> > gas heat is the furnace is powered by an electronic ignition. No electrical
> > power, no heat. GRRRRRRRRR
> >
> Get a generator. It doesn't have to be a big one.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
I've looked into the price of having one installed, they're not cheap. The cost of
running a natural gas generator runs between $30 to $170 per day. Of course
that would depend on the size of generator installed but going with the lower
price that would be $210 for one week's service.

On 11/9/2023 6:37 PM, itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net wrote:

>>
> I've looked into the price of having one installed, they're not cheap. The cost of
> running a natural gas generator runs between $30 to $170 per day. Of course
> that would depend on the size of generator installed but going with the lower
> price that would be $210 for one week's service.

In my entire life, I had one outage for two days after a hurricane in
CT. A couple of outages for 1 to 3 hours.

I can't justify a whole house, but when we moved here I bought a
portable because my wife needed the oxygen concentrator. In nearly
five years, never used.

I will start it up soon, just to be sure it runs. I'd use it for the
refrigerator but not a common problem.

On 2023-11-09, itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net <itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 4:02:39 PM UTC-6, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>
>> On 2023-11-09, itsjoan...@webtv.net <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Sheldon used to go on about his instant hot water heater and how it
>> >> saves a lot of money. Much more efficient than keeping 40 gallons of
>> >> water hot. I would have to spend at least $1200 to $1600 for one of
>> >> those.
>> >>
>> > I think your estimate for an instant hot water heater is very conservative.
>> > Generally, an additional electrical panel dedicated to the heater is also
>> > required.
>> >
>> Really? Why? You can get them that run on gas. In any event, we
>> have enough spare capacity in our electrical panel for an electric
>> water heater and perhaps a ground-loop heat pump HVAC system.
>>
> The national average for an installed tankless water heater is a bit over $2500
> with a natural gas model being higher.
>> >
>> > Gas is used here for cooking, heating, and hot water. My only gripe with
>> > gas heat is the furnace is powered by an electronic ignition. No electrical
>> > power, no heat. GRRRRRRRRR
>> >
>> Get a generator. It doesn't have to be a big one.
>>
>> Cindy Hamilton
>>
> I've looked into the price of having one installed, they're not cheap. The cost of
> running a natural gas generator runs between $30 to $170 per day. Of course
> that would depend on the size of generator installed but going with the lower
> price that would be $210 for one week's service.

Yes, they're expensive to buy, install, and run. Even here in Michigan,
the advantage of having the air-conditioning on during a power outage
is incalculable.

We rarely have a power outage that lasts longer than a couple of
days. Our power lines came down in an ice storm last February,
and our total bill (gas + electric) was smaller than usual,
reflecting our sharp decrease in purchase of electricity. It
all hinges on the relative prices of gas and eleectricity in your
market.

--
Cindy Hamilton

On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 10:25:09 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
<hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

>On 2023-11-09, itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net <itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net> wrote:
>>
>> I've looked into the price of having one installed, they're not cheap. The cost of
>> running a natural gas generator runs between $30 to $170 per day. Of course
>> that would depend on the size of generator installed but going with the lower
>> price that would be $210 for one week's service.
>
>Yes, they're expensive to buy, install, and run. Even here in Michigan,
>the advantage of having the air-conditioning on during a power outage
>is incalculable.
>
>We rarely have a power outage that lasts longer than a couple of
>days.

As if a couple of days isn't very long and inconvenient.

On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 12:37:46 AM UTC-10, Bruce wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 10:25:09 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
> <hami...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
> >On 2023-11-09, itsjoan...@webtv.net <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I've looked into the price of having one installed, they're not cheap. The cost of
> >> running a natural gas generator runs between $30 to $170 per day. Of course
> >> that would depend on the size of generator installed but going with the lower
> >> price that would be $210 for one week's service.
> >
> >Yes, they're expensive to buy, install, and run. Even here in Michigan,
> >the advantage of having the air-conditioning on during a power outage
> >is incalculable.
> >
> >We rarely have a power outage that lasts longer than a couple of
> >days.
> As if a couple of days isn't very long and inconvenient.

A couple of days living in the stone age never hurt nobody. In the future, people won't mind if the power goes out for a few days.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/02/07/ev-battery-power-your-home/

On 2023-11-10 11:56 a.m., dsi1 wrote:
> On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 12:37:46 AM UTC-10, Bruce wrote:

>>> We rarely have a power outage that lasts longer than a couple of
>>> days.
>> As if a couple of days isn't very long and inconvenient.
>
> A couple of days living in the stone age never hurt nobody. In the
> future, people won't mind if the power goes out for a few days.
>

Fine for you if you live in a house at ground level and the weather is
fair. Living in a high rise apartment with no elevator and no AC in the
middle of summer would be another matter. I rarely need AC here but I
need electricity for water. If desperate I can dip a bucket into the
well or the cistern. I can cook on the patio with the gas BBQ but that
would not be fun in a howling snow storm. Most of us have become
accustomed to the comforts of modern living.

On 2023-11-10, Dave Smith <adavid.smith@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On 2023-11-10 11:56 a.m., dsi1 wrote:
>> On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 12:37:46 AM UTC-10, Bruce wrote:
>
>>>> We rarely have a power outage that lasts longer than a couple of
>>>> days.
>>> As if a couple of days isn't very long and inconvenient.
>>
>> A couple of days living in the stone age never hurt nobody. In the
>> future, people won't mind if the power goes out for a few days.
>>
>
> Fine for you if you live in a house at ground level and the weather is
> fair. Living in a high rise apartment with no elevator and no AC in the
> middle of summer would be another matter. I rarely need AC here but I
> need electricity for water. If desperate I can dip a bucket into the
> well or the cistern. I can cook on the patio with the gas BBQ but that
> would not be fun in a howling snow storm. Most of us have become
> accustomed to the comforts of modern living.

And, of course, anybody with medical equipment that runs on electricity
can just curl up and die--living in the stone age never hurt nobody.

--
Cindy Hamilton

On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 08:56:03 -0800 (PST), dsi1
<dsi123@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:

>On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 12:37:46 AM UTC-10, Bruce wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 10:25:09 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
>> <hami...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On 2023-11-09, itsjoan...@webtv.net <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I've looked into the price of having one installed, they're not cheap. The cost of
>> >> running a natural gas generator runs between $30 to $170 per day. Of course
>> >> that would depend on the size of generator installed but going with the lower
>> >> price that would be $210 for one week's service.
>> >
>> >Yes, they're expensive to buy, install, and run. Even here in Michigan,
>> >the advantage of having the air-conditioning on during a power outage
>> >is incalculable.
>> >
>> >We rarely have a power outage that lasts longer than a couple of
>> >days.
>> As if a couple of days isn't very long and inconvenient.
>
>A couple of days living in the stone age never hurt nobody.

No computer and no wine? Parbleu!

On Thu, 9 Nov 2023 12:20:05 -0500
Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

> Most cars are used for
> low mileage local commutes so a range of 250 to 300 miles is fine and if
> you can have a home charger, you'll never be caught short. When I buy
> mine, range will probably be 600 miles.

You can do that now - buy a Lucid.

On Thu, 9 Nov 2023 11:39:56 -0800 (PST)
"itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net" <itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net> wrote:

> I think your estimate for an instant hot water heater is very conservative.
> Generally, an additional electrical panel dedicated to the heater is also
> required at an additional cost.

Nope, no 220 subpanel needed - they mostly run on a standard 110 breaker.

Remember they draw GAS, not much current.

Only the circulator ump and ignition run on electrons.

Dave Smith wrote:
> Most of us have become accustomed to the comforts of modern living.
>
Did you ever get caught throwing the trash you brag
about, officer Dave?
--
GM

On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 17:58:37 GMT
Cindy Hamilton <hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

> On 2023-11-10, Dave Smith <adavid.smith@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > On 2023-11-10 11:56 a.m., dsi1 wrote:
> >> On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 12:37:46 AM UTC-10, Bruce wrote:
> >
> >>>> We rarely have a power outage that lasts longer than a couple of
> >>>> days.
> >>> As if a couple of days isn't very long and inconvenient.
> >>
> >> A couple of days living in the stone age never hurt nobody. In the
> >> future, people won't mind if the power goes out for a few days.
> >>
> >
> > Fine for you if you live in a house at ground level and the weather is
> > fair. Living in a high rise apartment with no elevator and no AC in the
> > middle of summer would be another matter. I rarely need AC here but I
> > need electricity for water. If desperate I can dip a bucket into the
> > well or the cistern. I can cook on the patio with the gas BBQ but that
> > would not be fun in a howling snow storm. Most of us have become
> > accustomed to the comforts of modern living.
>
> And, of course, anybody with medical equipment that runs on electricity
> can just curl up and die--living in the stone age never hurt nobody.
>
> --
> Cindy Hamilton

....never heard of Jackery...

https://www.jackery.com/

On 11/9/2023 12:20 PM, Ed P wrote:
>
> Sheldon used to go on about his instant hot water heater and how it
> saves a lot of money. Much more efficient than keeping 40 gallons of
> water hot. I would have to spend at least $1200 to $1600 for one of
> those. I use gas for cooking, grilling, drying, hot water. My total gas
> use for all of that is about $8 a month. Just hot water alone, his
> system would save me maybe $2? Yep, payback in only 50 years or so.

My instantaneous water heater actually cost me a few dollars per month
more than the standard tank unit. This doesn't surprise me, because
it's nearly 100 years old, made of cast iron, and requires a 3/4"
natural gas line for enough BTU's to heat the copper coil. That said,
it was well worth the $100 I paid for it used over a new $700+ tank
unit. Let us consider that my heater could last my life time, but a new
tank unit is lucky to last 10 years.

On 11/10/2023 10:55 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 11/9/2023 12:20 PM, Ed P wrote:
>>
>> Sheldon used to go on about his instant hot water heater and how it
>> saves a lot of money. Much more efficient than keeping 40 gallons of
>> water hot. I would have to spend at least $1200 to $1600 for one of
>> those. I use gas for cooking, grilling, drying, hot water. My total gas
>> use for all of that is about $8 a month. Just hot water alone, his
>> system would save me maybe $2? Yep, payback in only 50 years or so.
>
> My instantaneous water heater actually cost me a few dollars per month
> more than the standard tank unit.  This doesn't surprise me, because
> it's nearly 100 years old, made of cast iron, and requires a 3/4"
> natural gas line for enough BTU's to heat the copper coil.  That said,
> it was well worth the $100 I paid for it used over a new $700+ tank
> unit.  Let us consider that my heater could last my life time, but a new
> tank unit is lucky to last 10 years.

My experience with them is limited, but if they are all the same, I
don't like it. My friend has one at her shore home. Makes sense there
as it is often unoccupied for weeks at a time in winter.

The problem, you need a certain flow for the heat to kick on. It gets
hot fast and will keep up but, it you just want a trickle, the heat
stops. In the shower, if you don't use enough hot in the mix, it will
turn cold. I find myself using more hot water than needed so it stays hot.

Not my house so I don't play with it to see if it can be adjusted.