On 11/13/2023 6:16 PM, Dave Smith wrote:

>>
>
> I did a 2 or 3 month secondment as a driver examiner. It was a
horrible job. There were several approved routes for the road tests.
They had to have two lane and four lane roads, a one way road, a railway
crossing, stop signs, traffic lights, access and exit a highway. There
was nothing about starting on a hill.
>
> As part of my regular job I also trained driver examiners to drive
tractor trailers and starting on a hill was part of the training and was
included on the test.

Wow, nothing like I had to do in PA when I took the test 62 years ago.
Where I went, there was a closed course, no outside traffic. You had to
back into a parking spot, do a three point turn, and meander around the
closed course road with no traffic other than another person taking the
test.

My kids took their test in CT. You did have to go on the public street
but it was little more than a traffic light and a couple of stop signs
as you went around the block.

On 2023-11-14, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

> My kids took their test in CT. You did have to go on the public street
> but it was little more than a traffic light and a couple of stop signs
> as you went around the block.

I took my driving test in a small, flat Nevada town. I remember nothing
about it except worrying about failing the parallel parking test. I
didn't.

On 2023-11-14 11:15 a.m., Leonard Blaisdell wrote:
> On 2023-11-14, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>
>> My kids took their test in CT. You did have to go on the public street
>> but it was little more than a traffic light and a couple of stop signs
>> as you went around the block.
>
>
> I took my driving test in a small, flat Nevada town. I remember nothing
> about it except worrying about failing the parallel parking test. I
> didn't.

I once tested a guy who was doing great. His driving was excellent. He
was careful, demonstrated great skill and good knowledge. He was calm
and collected. He almost aced it. Unfortunately, he slightly dinged
another car when backing up. No damage done to either car, but that
little error was an automatic failure. I have to admit that I was
tempted to pretend I had not noticed.

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 7:03:04 AM UTC-10, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2023-11-14 11:15 a.m., Leonard Blaisdell wrote:
> > On 2023-11-14, Ed P <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:
> >
> >> My kids took their test in CT. You did have to go on the public street
> >> but it was little more than a traffic light and a couple of stop signs
> >> as you went around the block.
> >
> >
> > I took my driving test in a small, flat Nevada town. I remember nothing
> > about it except worrying about failing the parallel parking test. I
> > didn't.
> I once tested a guy who was doing great. His driving was excellent. He
> was careful, demonstrated great skill and good knowledge. He was calm
> and collected. He almost aced it. Unfortunately, he slightly dinged
> another car when backing up. No damage done to either car, but that
> little error was an automatic failure. I have to admit that I was
> tempted to pretend I had not noticed.

Why was a guy from New York City taking a driving test in Canada?

Dave Smith wrote:
> I once tested a guy who was doing great. His driving was excellent. He
> was careful, demonstrated great skill and good knowledge. He was calm
> and collected. He almost aced it. Unfortunately, he slightly dinged
> another car when backing up. No damage done to either car, but that
> little error was an automatic failure. I have to admit that I was
> tempted to pretend I had not noticed.
>
>
You should have arrested him, officer Dave.
--
GM

On 11/14/2023 11:15 AM, Leonard Blaisdell wrote:
> On 2023-11-14, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>
>> My kids took their test in CT. You did have to go on the public street
>> but it was little more than a traffic light and a couple of stop signs
>> as you went around the block.
>
>
> I took my driving test in a small, flat Nevada town. I remember nothing
> about it except worrying about failing the parallel parking test. I
> didn't.

It is a skill that needs practice. When I lived in one section of
Philadelphia, parking was really scarce so small cars were a bonus and I
could get into really tight spots with ease.

In the past five+ years, I'd had to do it exactly once. Scraped a wheel
on the curb too.

On 2023-11-14 1:21 p.m., Ed P wrote:
> On 11/14/2023 11:15 AM, Leonard Blaisdell wrote:
>> On 2023-11-14, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>>
>>> My kids took their test in CT.  You did have to go on the public street
>>> but it was little more than a traffic light and a couple of stop signs
>>> as you went around the block.
>>
>>
>> I took my driving test in a small, flat Nevada town. I remember nothing
>> about it except worrying about failing the parallel parking test. I
>> didn't.
>
>
> It is a skill that needs practice.  When I lived in one section of
> Philadelphia, parking was really scarce so small cars were a bonus and I
> could get into really tight spots with ease.
>
> In the past five+ years, I'd had to do it exactly once.  Scraped a wheel
> on the curb too.

On a driving test is is basically an exercise in backing up.

People freak out about parallel parking here. You should see the way it
is done in some European cities. The first time I was in France we went
directly to Strasbourg and that evening we had to cross the road. We had
to go by a half dozen cars before we found to parked far enough apart
that we could squeeze through.

Leonard Blaisdell wrote:

> On 2023-11-14, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>
> > My kids took their test in CT. You did have to go on the public
> > street but it was little more than a traffic light and a couple of
> > stop signs as you went around the block.
>
>
> I took my driving test in a small, flat Nevada town. I remember
> nothing about it except worrying about failing the parallel parking
> test. I didn't.

I had to use my Mom's Rambler station wagon. It had 7in front and back
once I got it in there. The tester was actually impressed I made it.

On 2023-11-14, Ed P wrote:

>> Parallel parking

> In the past five+ years, I'd had to do it exactly once.

My next-door neighbour regularly backs his trailer
from rightmost edge of the left lane he needs to
block for a few seconds. This leaves the steady
flow in the right lane unaffected.

He backs the trailer into his driveway at right
angles to the street in one go, with no discernable
zigging and thus no zagging either.

On 2023-11-14, Dave Smith wrote:

> We had to go by a half dozen cars before we found two
> parked far enough apart that we could squeeze through.

Paris? Are the spots unmarked? Or do paople just do a 50
point manouver to slip the car into a 2 foot clearance?

On 11/14/2023 5:19 PM, Mike Duffy wrote:
> On 2023-11-14, Dave Smith wrote:
>
>> We had to go by a half dozen cars before we found two
>> parked far enough apart that we could squeeze through.
>
> Paris? Are the spots unmarked? Or do paople just do a 50
> point manouver to slip the car into a 2 foot clearance?
>

I've seen that in Italy. The people that designed the cities in Europe
did not have for foresight to allow for plenty of parking.

Pretty muck the same in the old section of any big city. That is why I
was good at PP many years ago.

On 2023-11-14 5:15 p.m., Mike Duffy wrote:
> On 2023-11-14, Ed P wrote:
>
>>> Parallel parking
>
>> In the past five+ years, I'd had to do it exactly once.
>
> My next-door neighbour regularly backs his trailer
> from rightmost edge of the left lane he needs to
> block for a few seconds. This leaves the steady
> flow in the right lane unaffected.
>
> He backs the trailer into his driveway at right
> angles to the street in one go, with no discernable
> zigging and thus no zagging either.
>

That especially impressive if it is a short trailer. The shorter the
trailer the harder it is to back up.

On 2023-11-14 5:19 p.m., Mike Duffy wrote:
> On 2023-11-14, Dave Smith wrote:
>
>> We had to go by a half dozen cars before we found two
>> parked far enough apart that we could squeeze through.
>
> Paris? Are the spots unmarked? Or do paople just do a 50
> point manouver to slip the car into a 2 foot clearance?
>

That was in Strasbourg and it stands out in my mind because it was my
first time there. Paris is just as bad. I have to say that I didn't
actually see anyone parallel parking in Paris. Maybe it is just so
damned challenging that once they get parked and blocked in they just
stay there and never move.

When I was there with my brothers in 1999 we had rented a car, actually
two cars and planned to end the trip in Paris. I suggested dropping the
cars at the airport and taking the train or Roissey bus into the city
because I did not want to drive there. My brothers were adamant we
should drive the girls to the hotel and then take the cars to the
airport. One SiL came to my rescue. She had lived in France for a
couple years and understood the problems with driving there and the
difficulty in finding parking.

When we got to the hotel and went out on the balcony of my hotel room we
looked down at the cars parked along the street. There were no empty
spaces and there was barely any room between the parked cars, certainly
not enough for me to get in and out with out the back and bump.

On 2023-11-14 3:51 p.m., Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2023-11-14 5:19 p.m., Mike Duffy wrote:
>> On 2023-11-14, Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>>> We had to go by a half dozen cars before we found two
>>> parked far enough apart that we could squeeze through.
>>
>> Paris? Are the spots unmarked? Or do paople just do a 50
>> point manouver to slip the car into a 2 foot clearance?
>>
>
> That was in Strasbourg and it stands out in my mind because it was my
> first time there. Paris is just as bad. I have to say that I didn't
> actually see anyone parallel parking in Paris. Maybe it is just so
> damned challenging that once they get parked and blocked in they just
> stay there and never move.
>
> When I was there with my brothers in 1999 we had rented a car, actually
> two cars and planned to end the trip in Paris. I suggested dropping the
> cars at the airport and taking the train or Roissey bus into the city
> because I did not want to drive there. My brothers were adamant we
> should drive the girls to the hotel and then take the cars to the
> airport.  One SiL came to my rescue. She had lived in France for a
> couple years and understood the problems with driving there and the
> difficulty in finding parking.
>
> When we got to the hotel and went out on the balcony of my hotel room we
> looked down at the cars parked along the street. There were no empty
> spaces and there was barely any room between the parked cars, certainly
> not enough for me to get in and out with out the back and bump.
>
>
I think minor parking fender benders are considered to be part of life.

On 11/14/2023 8:45 PM, Graham wrote:
> On 2023-11-14 3:51 p.m., Dave Smith wrote:
>> On 2023-11-14 5:19 p.m., Mike Duffy wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-14, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> We had to go by a half dozen cars before we found two
>>>> parked far enough apart that we could squeeze through.
>>>
>>> Paris? Are the spots unmarked? Or do paople just do a 50
>>> point manouver to slip the car into a 2 foot clearance?
>>>
>>
>> That was in Strasbourg and it stands out in my mind because it was my
>> first time there. Paris is just as bad. I have to say that I didn't
>> actually see anyone parallel parking in Paris. Maybe it is just so
>> damned challenging that once they get parked and blocked in they just
>> stay there and never move.
>>
>> When I was there with my brothers in 1999 we had rented a car,
>> actually two cars and planned to end the trip in Paris. I suggested
>> dropping the cars at the airport and taking the train or Roissey bus
>> into the city because I did not want to drive there. My brothers were
>> adamant we should drive the girls to the hotel and then take the cars
>> to the airport.  One SiL came to my rescue. She had lived in France
>> for a couple years and understood the problems with driving there and
>> the difficulty in finding parking.
>>
>> When we got to the hotel and went out on the balcony of my hotel room
>> we looked down at the cars parked along the street. There were no
>> empty spaces and there was barely any room between the parked cars,
>> certainly not enough for me to get in and out with out the back and bump.
>>
>>
> I think minor parking fender benders are considered to be part of life.

Yes, but only by inconsiderate and unskilled drivers.

On 2023-11-14 7:08 p.m., Ed P wrote:
> On 11/14/2023 8:45 PM, Graham wrote:
>> On 2023-11-14 3:51 p.m., Dave Smith wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-14 5:19 p.m., Mike Duffy wrote:
>>>> On 2023-11-14, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We had to go by a half dozen cars before we found two
>>>>> parked far enough apart that we could squeeze through.
>>>>
>>>> Paris? Are the spots unmarked? Or do paople just do a 50
>>>> point manouver to slip the car into a 2 foot clearance?
>>>>
>>>
>>> That was in Strasbourg and it stands out in my mind because it was my
>>> first time there. Paris is just as bad. I have to say that I didn't
>>> actually see anyone parallel parking in Paris. Maybe it is just so
>>> damned challenging that once they get parked and blocked in they just
>>> stay there and never move.
>>>
>>> When I was there with my brothers in 1999 we had rented a car,
>>> actually two cars and planned to end the trip in Paris. I suggested
>>> dropping the cars at the airport and taking the train or Roissey bus
>>> into the city because I did not want to drive there. My brothers were
>>> adamant we should drive the girls to the hotel and then take the cars
>>> to the airport.  One SiL came to my rescue. She had lived in France
>>> for a couple years and understood the problems with driving there and
>>> the difficulty in finding parking.
>>>
>>> When we got to the hotel and went out on the balcony of my hotel room
>>> we looked down at the cars parked along the street. There were no
>>> empty spaces and there was barely any room between the parked cars,
>>> certainly not enough for me to get in and out with out the back and
>>> bump.
>>>
>>>
>> I think minor parking fender benders are considered to be part of life.
>
> Yes, but only by inconsiderate and unskilled drivers.

I should have written: "In Paris" where they often redefine the meaning
of "inconsiderate"!

On 2023-11-14 9:24 p.m., Graham wrote:
> On 2023-11-14 7:08 p.m., Ed P wrote:
>> On 11/14/2023 8:45 PM, Graham wrote:

>>> I think minor parking fender benders are considered to be part of life.
>>
>> Yes, but only by inconsiderate and unskilled drivers.
>
> I should have written: "In Paris" where they often redefine the meaning
> of "inconsiderate"!

And once again thanks to my SiL for backing me up (no pun intended)
about not driving in Paris. It is daunting to be driven along on densely
packed streets at high speed and with motorcycles lane speeding at high
speed. It's a wonder with there are a lot more crashes.

On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 21:42:24 -0500, Dave Smith
<adavid.smith@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>On 2023-11-14 9:24 p.m., Graham wrote:
>> On 2023-11-14 7:08 p.m., Ed P wrote:
>>> On 11/14/2023 8:45 PM, Graham wrote:
>
>>>> I think minor parking fender benders are considered to be part of life.
>>>
>>> Yes, but only by inconsiderate and unskilled drivers.
>>
>> I should have written: "In Paris" where they often redefine the meaning
>> of "inconsiderate"!
>
>And once again thanks to my SiL for backing me up (no pun intended)
>about not driving in Paris. It is daunting to be driven along on densely
>packed streets at high speed and with motorcycles lane speeding at high
>speed. It's a wonder with there are a lot more crashes.

That last sentence, is that Canadian ebonics?

On 11/14/2023 1:21 PM, Ed P wrote:
> On 11/14/2023 11:15 AM, Leonard Blaisdell wrote:
>> On 2023-11-14, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>>
>>> My kids took their test in CT. You did have to go on the public street
>>> but it was little more than a traffic light and a couple of stop signs
>>> as you went around the block.
>>
>>
>> I took my driving test in a small, flat Nevada town. I remember nothing
>> about it except worrying about failing the parallel parking test. I
>> didn't.
>
>
> It is a skill that needs practice. When I lived in one section of
> Philadelphia, parking was really scarce so small cars were a bonus and I
> could get into really tight spots with ease.
>
> In the past five+ years, I'd had to do it exactly once. Scraped a wheel
> on the curb too.

I have to do it multiple times per week here, because all in town
parking is on-street. As I learned for a few months earlier this year,
when you have to parallel park a full size 50's car with wide modern
radial tires, you miss having power steering.

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 22:04:57 -0500, Michael Trew
<michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

>On 11/14/2023 1:21 PM, Ed P wrote:
>> On 11/14/2023 11:15 AM, Leonard Blaisdell wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-14, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My kids took their test in CT. You did have to go on the public street
>>>> but it was little more than a traffic light and a couple of stop signs
>>>> as you went around the block.
>>>
>>>
>>> I took my driving test in a small, flat Nevada town. I remember nothing
>>> about it except worrying about failing the parallel parking test. I
>>> didn't.
>>
>>
>> It is a skill that needs practice. When I lived in one section of
>> Philadelphia, parking was really scarce so small cars were a bonus and I
>> could get into really tight spots with ease.
>>
>> In the past five+ years, I'd had to do it exactly once. Scraped a wheel
>> on the curb too.
>
>I have to do it multiple times per week here, because all in town
>parking is on-street. As I learned for a few months earlier this year,
>when you have to parallel park a full size 50's car with wide modern
>radial tires, you miss having power steering.

I don't have power steering on my '84 ute (pickup) either.