Hello, I’m currently exploring the ancestry of Frances Bartholomew (1775-1827), the first wife of Hon. John Wingfield-Stratford of Addington Place, Kent (1772-1850), 2nd son of the 3rd Viscount Powerscourt, to trace all Edward I descents for her. Frances can be found in the Genealogics database, here:
https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00224441&tree=LEO

From ‘Record of the Bartholomew Family’ Part 2 (1885) by George Wells Bartholomew, Frances’s paternal ancestor, Leonard Bartholomew (1655-1720) “married Elizabeth, daughter of Humphrey Miller of Oxenhoath, baronet” [p. 640]:
https://archive.org/details/recordofbartholo02bart/page/512/mode/2up

So, Frances (Bartholomew) Wingfield-Stratford has a potential 19-generation descent from Edward I:

Edward I had a dau:
1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307), who had
2) Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337), who had
3) Isabel le Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356), who had
4) Sir Edmund Arundel (1327-1381), who had
5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399), who had
6) Elizabeth Cergeaux (b. c.1371), who had
7) Anne Marney m. Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476), and had
8) Humphrey Tyrrell of Little Warley Hall (d. 1507) m. 1) Isabel Helion, and had
9) Anne Tyrrell (1474-1534) m. Sir Roger Wentworth of Codham Hall, and had
10) Margaret Wentworth m. 1) John Berney of Reedham (by 1485-1527), and had
11) John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) m. 1) Margaret Reade (d. 1548), and had
12) Mary Berney m. Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616), and had
13) William Style, Heir of Langley Park (d. 1615) m. 1) Anne Eversfield, and had
14) Anne Style m. Sir Nicholas Miller of Oxenhoath (c.1592-1658), and had
15) Sir Humphrey Miller, 1st Baronet of Oxenhoath (c.1635-1709) m. 1) Mary Borlase*, and had
16) Elizabeth Miller (c.1664-1720) m. Leonard Bartholomew of Rochester, and had
17) Leonard Bartholomew of Addington Place (d. 1757) m. Elizabeth Watton, and had
18) Leonard Bartholomew of Addington Place (1728-1810) m. Frances Wildash, and had
19) Frances Bartholomew (1775-1827) m. Hon. John Wingfield-Stratford

*The evidence for Generations 14 and 15 above is in Complete Baronetage Volume 3, p. 125. It should be noted that Mary (Borlase), Lady Miller has two lines of descent from Edward III, one of those thru Cardinal Beaufort. But I’m focusing on this possible Edward I descent for her husband the first baronet.
https://archive.org/details/cu31924092524390/page/n144/mode/2up

The evidence for Generations 12 thru 14 above is in Betham’s ‘Baronetage’ Volume 1, p. 295, where he says that Edmund Style of Langley “married Mary, daughter of John Berney, of Reedham, in Norfolk”:
https://archive.org/details/baronetageengla00unkngoog/page/295/mode/2up

The problem with this line of descent lies with this Mary (Berney) Style. This unsourced Wikitree entry has Mary as the daughter of John Berney of Reedham and Margaret Reade:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Berney-17

Generations 1 thru 11 above are well-covered in several published works on royal descent, including Douglas Richardson’s ‘Plantagenet Ancestry’ 2nd Edition (2011). But in that work, Douglas states that John Berney and his 1st wife Margaret Reade had “five daughters, Mary (wife of Robert Jenney, Esq.), Thomasine (wife of Thomas Osborn, Esq.), Elizabeth, Ursula, and Ela” [p. 297]:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Plantagenet_Ancestry_A_Study_In_Colonial/kjme027UeagC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=john+berney+married+margaret+reade&pg=RA1-PA297&printsec=frontcover

One of Douglas’s sources for his entry on John Berney is the Barney pedigree in ‘The Visitations of Norfolk, 1563, 1589 and 1613’ edited by Walter Rye (Harleian Society Volume 32 (1891)), pp. 16-17. But that pedigree only gives John Berney and Margaret Reade one daughter, “Mary ux. Will. Denny of Heringfleet in co. Suff., esq.”:
https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/16/mode/2up

Another of Douglas’s sources is William Betham’s Baronetage Vol. 1 (1801), p. 182, where Betham states that John Berney and Margaret Reade had four daughters, “Thomasine, the wife of Thomas Osborne of Kirby Bedon, Esq. another, the wife of – Sydnor of Blundeston, Esq. Mary, of Robert Jenney of Herringfleet; and the youngest of --- Cuddon of Shadingfield, all in Suffolk”:
https://archive.org/details/baronetageengla00unkngoog/page/182/mode/2up
So we now have Mary Berney, daughter of John Berney of Reedham and Margaret Reade, with three potential husbands:
1) Edmund Style of Langley Hall, parish of Beckenham, Kent – per William Betham in 1801 (though to be fair he doesn’t state which John Berney of Reedham was Edmund Style’s father-in-law).
2) Robert Jenney of Herringfleet, Suffolk – again per William Betham in 1801
3) William Denny of Herringfleet, Suffolk – per a pedigree edited by Walter Rye in 1891

Per the Jenney of Herringfleet pedigree in the 1561 Visitation of Suffolk, “Robert Jenney of Herringfleet, Gent., son and heir to Richard, mar.. Marye, da. to John Barney of Reedham, co. Norf., Esq., and by her had issue…” [p. 46]:
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofsuf00harvuoft/page/46/mode/2up

Per Walter Coppinger’s ‘The Manors of Suffolk’ Volume 5 (19), sub ‘Manor of Loudham and Titsall’s Herringfleet’, p. 46, “At all events, this Robert [Jenny] had the manor, and we find that in 1542 he and Mary his wife levied a fine against Francis Jenny and Margaret his wife. Robert Jenny married Mary, daughter of John Berney, of Reedham, and died in 1559, when the manor passed to his son and heir, John Jenny”:
https://archive.org/details/manorsofsuffolkn05copiuoft/page/46/mode/2up

So Robert Jenny of Loudham in Herringfleet and Mary Berney were married by 1542. But the John Berney of Reedham who married Margaret Reade was “born about 1518 (aged 18 in 1536)”, per Douglas Richardson. That doesn’t work chronologically. It turns out John Berney was actually born about 1510 (aged 18 in 1528), but that still doesn’t work chronologically.
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/h8_5r8pMg7A/m/P0BWF4Nn_8oJ

Joan Corder’s edition of ‘The Visitation of Suffolk 1561’ Part 2 (Harleian Society New Series Volume 3 (1984)), p. 341, has Robert Jenney of Titsall’s manor in Herringfleet died 1559 “Married Mary, daughter of John Berney, of Reedham, co. Norfolk. After Jenney’s death Mary married Henry Brampton, of Fritton…”:
https://books.google.com/books?newbks=0&id=2Xc0SkVQAycC&dq=robert+jenney+of+herringfleet&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=reedham

One of the sources cited by Corder is the Barney pedigree in the Visitation of London 1568, and it is this pedigree which solves the chronological dilemma. “Mary 1 da. maried to Robert Jenney after to – Brampton” was actually the daughter of John Berney of Reedham and Margaret Wentworth, and the sister of the John Berney of Reedham who married Margaret Reade:
https://archive.org/details/visitationoflond00cook/page/58/mode/2up

With Mary Berney, wife of Robert Jenney (d. 1559) now moved a generation back, that leaves the possibility that John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife Margaret Reade had their own daughter Mary Berney, as in the Barney pedigree in the 1891 Visitation of Norfolk volume, where she is married to William Denny. In that same volume, Walter Rye has a Denny pedigree in which “William Denny, esqr, 2nd son [of Sir Robert Denny and Frances Tresham] = Mary da. of Jo. Berney of Reedham in co. Norf.” [pp. 102-103]:
https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/102/mode/2up

However, a query by Rev. H.L.L. Denny to ‘Notes and Queries’ in 1905 casts into doubt the accuracy of the 1891 Denny pedigree by Walter Rye [pp 249-250]: “But to the original MS. of the Visitation an addition has been made, in a different ink, by an apparently later hand. This gives as wife to Robert Denny ‘Frances, dau. Trigham [or Tresham], Esq., of co. Northants,’ and makes him have a second son William, who, by a Barney of Reedham, Norfolk, had Thomas and Syndrack Denny, who left numerous issue. This whole pedigree, addition and all, is printed in the Harleian Society’s ‘Visitation of Norfolk.’…I am myself inclined to think that this unconsidered younger son, Robert Denny, has been made by some enterprising genealogist a peg whereupon to hang a pedigree.”:
https://books.google.com/books?id=S92ddIdH3UIC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=Sir+Robert+Denny+married+Frances+Tresham&source=bl&ots=cS41V1cr_i&sig=ACfU3U13GBmpIYO7gugbsDvWetO4sCpLBg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjNgca9hYj0AhXRwJ4KHW8kDd8Q6AF6BAgPEAM#v=onepage&q=Sir%20Robert%20Denny%20married%20Frances%20Tresham&f=false

John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) did have a daughter named Mary, who, along with her sisters Thomasine, Elizabeth, Ursula and Ela, was under age 18 and not yet married when he wrote his will (dated 30 January 1554), “daughter Mary Berney - a flower of gold with diamonds, which was her mother's … my said daughters Mary, Thomasyne, Elizabeth, Ursula & Ele - 100 marks each at age 18 or day of marriage, with remainder to my son Henry Berney; my daughters to marry with the consent of my mother, my brother in law Augustine Stywarde, my sister Harward & my executors;if not, then to have only £20”:
https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0110.html

Does anyone know of a detailed pedigree, or article, on the Style family of Langley Park? The chronology suggests that the Mary Berney who was the wife of Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616) would fit as the daughter of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife Margaret Reade (d. 1548) named Mary.

On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 10:39:04 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
> Does anyone know of a detailed pedigree, or article, on the Style family of Langley Park? The chronology suggests that the Mary Berney who was the wife of Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616) would fit as the daughter of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife Margaret Reade (d.. 1548) named Mary.

OK, I found the proof that Mary Berney, wife of Edmund Style of Langley Park, was the daughter of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife, Margaret Reade.

John Berney had a younger brother, Richard Berney of Furnival's Inn, London (d. 1571), son of John Berney of Reedham (c.1485-1527) and Margaret Wentworth (d. aft.1553, descended from Edward I). Richard Berney made a will, dated 19 March 1571, proved 5 April 1571.

In his will, Richard mentions "sister Amy Berney 10s," "each of sister Jenneyes children, except John, 5s," "Margaret dau of my brother Robert 20s," and names as his Executor "Exor: brother Robert Barney." Though Richard Berney is not listed among the children of John Berney and Margaret Wentworth in the Barney pedigree from the 1568 Visitation of London, Robert Berney of London, Margaret (Berney) Jenney, and Amy Berney all are.

Also in his will, Richard Berney names, "Master Edmund Style and niece Style his wife.niece Elizabeth Barney, niece Elleyne, niece Codon 10s" and "each child of nephew Styles 6s 8d":
https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0122.html

We know from the will of John Berney of Reedham (d. 1557), that Elizabeth Berney, Ela/Elleyne Berney, and Anne (Berney) Cudon, were all his daughters, and that he had a daughter named Mary. So at some point before 1569 (since Richard Berney mentions "each child of nephew Styles", implying there were at least two by 1571), Mary Berney married Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616).

Cheers, -------Brad

Brad,

I am very interested in the Berney of Reedham part of your research.
I was working on the children of Sir William Calthorpe and one son, Francis Calthorpe (1468-1544), married an Elizabeth Berney, daughter of Ralph Berney of Reedham. Did you perhaps run across a Ralph Berney of Reedham? I would love to be able to update Elizabeth Berney's pedigree with her line if I could. Ralph maybe is the father of John Berney of Reedham?

Thank you!

Darrell

On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 4:36:51 AM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 10:39:04 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
> > Does anyone know of a detailed pedigree, or article, on the Style family of Langley Park? The chronology suggests that the Mary Berney who was the wife of Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616) would fit as the daughter of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife Margaret Reade (d. 1548) named Mary.
> OK, I found the proof that Mary Berney, wife of Edmund Style of Langley Park, was the daughter of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife, Margaret Reade.

Ignore that last bit about possibly being the father... 1440s would be the approximate birth year for Ralph Berney of Reedham, which is at LEAST 2 generations prior.

Darrell

On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 12:03:46 PM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> Brad,
>
> I am very interested in the Berney of Reedham part of your research.
> I was working on the children of Sir William Calthorpe and one son, Francis Calthorpe (1468-1544), married an Elizabeth Berney, daughter of Ralph Berney of Reedham. Did you perhaps run across a Ralph Berney of Reedham? I would love to be able to update Elizabeth Berney's pedigree with her line if I could. Ralph maybe is the father of John Berney of Reedham?
>
> Thank you!
>
> Darrell
> On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 4:36:51 AM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 10:39:04 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
> > > Does anyone know of a detailed pedigree, or article, on the Style family of Langley Park? The chronology suggests that the Mary Berney who was the wife of Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616) would fit as the daughter of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife Margaret Reade (d. 1548) named Mary.
> > OK, I found the proof that Mary Berney, wife of Edmund Style of Langley Park, was the daughter of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife, Margaret Reade.

What is your source for the name of the father of Elizabeth (Berney) Calthorpe?

The descent of Reedham is given

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-norfolk/vol11/pp121-132

no Ralph in this time period is noted

On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 10:39:04 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
> Hello, I’m currently exploring the ancestry of Frances Bartholomew (1775-1827), the first wife of Hon. John Wingfield-Stratford of Addington Place, Kent (1772-1850), 2nd son of the 3rd Viscount Powerscourt, to trace all Edward I descents for her. Frances can be found in the Genealogics database, here:
> https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00224441&tree=LEO
>
> From ‘Record of the Bartholomew Family’ Part 2 (1885) by George Wells Bartholomew, Frances’s paternal ancestor, Leonard Bartholomew (1655-1720) “married Elizabeth, daughter of Humphrey Miller of Oxenhoath, baronet” [p. 640]:
> https://archive.org/details/recordofbartholo02bart/page/512/mode/2up
>
> So, Frances (Bartholomew) Wingfield-Stratford has a potential 19-generation descent from Edward I:
>
> Edward I had a dau:
> 1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307), who had
> 2) Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337), who had
> 3) Isabel le Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356), who had
> 4) Sir Edmund Arundel (1327-1381), who had
> 5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399), who had
> 6) Elizabeth Cergeaux (b. c.1371), who had
> 7) Anne Marney m. Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476), and had
> 8) Humphrey Tyrrell of Little Warley Hall (d. 1507) m. 1) Isabel Helion, and had
> 9) Anne Tyrrell (1474-1534) m. Sir Roger Wentworth of Codham Hall, and had
> 10) Margaret Wentworth m. 1) John Berney of Reedham (by 1485-1527), and had
> 11) John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) m. 1) Margaret Reade (d. 1548), and had
> 12) Mary Berney m. Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616), and had
> 13) William Style, Heir of Langley Park (d. 1615) m. 1) Anne Eversfield, and had
> 14) Anne Style m. Sir Nicholas Miller of Oxenhoath (c.1592-1658), and had
> 15) Sir Humphrey Miller, 1st Baronet of Oxenhoath (c.1635-1709) m. 1) Mary Borlase*, and had
> 16) Elizabeth Miller (c.1664-1720) m. Leonard Bartholomew of Rochester, and had
> 17) Leonard Bartholomew of Addington Place (d. 1757) m. Elizabeth Watton, and had
> 18) Leonard Bartholomew of Addington Place (1728-1810) m. Frances Wildash, and had
> 19) Frances Bartholomew (1775-1827) m. Hon. John Wingfield-Stratford
>
> *The evidence for Generations 14 and 15 above is in Complete Baronetage Volume 3, p. 125. It should be noted that Mary (Borlase), Lady Miller has two lines of descent from Edward III, one of those thru Cardinal Beaufort. But I’m focusing on this possible Edward I descent for her husband the first baronet.
> https://archive.org/details/cu31924092524390/page/n144/mode/2up
>

> Cheers, -----Brad
Brad briefly notes above that there are two lines of descent from Edward III for Mary Borlase in #14 above. There is also an Edward III descent for Elizabeth Watton in #17 above, as folows;

Edward III had a son,
1) John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster; m. (3) m. (3) Katherine de Roet
2) Joan Beaufort; m. (2) (his 2nd) Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland
3) Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury; m. Alice Montagu [or Montacute]
4) John Neville, 1st Marquis of Montagu; m. Isabel Ingoldsthorpe
5) Lucy Neville; m. (2) (his 2nd) Sir Anthony Browne
6) Sir Anthony Browne; m. (1) Alice Gage
7) Lucy Browne; m. Thomas Roper of Eltham
8) Martha Roper; m. Thomas Watton of Addington
9) William Watton; m. Elizabeth Simmons [or Symonds]
10) William Watton of Addington; m. Margaret Moreland
11) Edmund Watton; m. Sarah NN
12) Elizabeth Watton; m. (1) Leonard Bartholomew

Thomas Watton of Addington, husband of Martha Roper in #8 above was the son of another Thomas Watton of Addington, who is variously said to have married a sister or daughter of Edmund Sheffield, 1st Baron Sheffield. If his wife was indeed a daughter of Lord Sheffield, she would have two Edward I descents (via Anne de Vere, wife of Lord Sheffield.

The Watton pedigree in the 1619 visitation of Kent (Harleian Society, vol. 42, p. 9) says that Thomas Watton married “Margareta soror Edmundi Baronis Sheffielde". If this is the case, then Thomas Watton's wife does not have Edward I descents.

However, there is an elaborate 1651 monument to the Waddon family in St. Margaret’s Church in Addington, West Malling, Kent. https://churchmonumentssociety.org/monument-of-the-month/the-watton-monument-at-addington-kent. This monument is also described in the 1781 edition of Hasted’s History of Kent, vol. 2 pp. 226ff. https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_and_Topographical_Survey_of/de09fMymE8AC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=edmound+watton+margaret+sheffield&pg=PA227&printsec=frontcover. Both descriptions say that Thomas Watton (who was buried there in 1580) married “Elianor, daughter of Edmund, Lord Sheffield” or “Eleanoram filiam Edmundi Domini Sheffield”.

But it's well known that Lord Sheffield had a different daughter Eleanor who was married to Denzil Holles. Of course, it's possible that Lord Sheffield had TWO daughters named Eleanor. But this seems unlikely in this case, especially since Lord Sheffield died at a quite young age while trying to suppress Kett’s rebellion in 1549 - having already had 5 children who are known. So it's more likely that the inscription in the Addington church was simply wrong - and the wife of the elder Thomas Watton was a sister, not a daughter, of Lord Sheffield and thus has no Edward I descents.

Harvey, source below. I messed up on the "of Reedham" part I think.

William Harvey. "''The Visitation of Norfolk in the Year 1563: Taken by William Harvey, Clarenceux King of Arms, Norfolk and Norwich Archaeological Society''". (Miller and Leavins, 1895), vol. 1
https://books.google.com/books?id=u04EAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=visitation+norfolk+volume+1#v=snippet&q=Wichingham%20Berney&f=false
pages 7 and 125, covering Berney and Southwell- Ralph Berney and Amy Southwell.

Darrell

> > On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 4:36:51 AM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 10:39:04 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
> > > > Does anyone know of a detailed pedigree, or article, on the Style family of Langley Park? The chronology suggests that the Mary Berney who was the wife of Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616) would fit as the daughter of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife Margaret Reade (d. 1548) named Mary.
> > > OK, I found the proof that Mary Berney, wife of Edmund Style of Langley Park, was the daughter of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife, Margaret Reade.
> What is your source for the name of the father of Elizabeth (Berney) Calthorpe?

You will note also that Alice Southwell is present in the Reedham pedigree.... Amy Southwell is one generation off.

Also this:

"Sir Robert Berney purchased by fine, in the 19th of Richard II. the part or share of Elizabeth, wife of William Wilton; and before this, John Dorward, and Catherine his wife, conveyed all their right to him in the 11th of the said King, and was found to hold half a fee of the Bishop of Norwich; in the 17th of Edward IV. John Berney, Esq. died seized of it, of Streto, and Cley Hall in Wichingham, Holbrook's in Seething, &c.

¶Robert Berney dying lord in the 2d of Henry VII. that King granted in the following year to Sir Ralph Shelton, the custody of the lands and marriage of Ralph Berney, his brother and heir; this Ralph married Ann, daughter of Richard Southwell, Esq. of Wood-Rysing, and died about the 27th of Henry VIII. held of the Bishop by one fee. Robert was his son and heir, who by Susan his wife, daughter of Sir Henry Fermour, Knt. of East Barsham, had several sons and daughters."

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-norfolk/vol8/pp119-123

Darrell

On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 1:36:51 AM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
> We know from the will of John Berney of Reedham (d. 1557), that Elizabeth Berney, Ela/Elleyne Berney, and Anne (Berney) Cudon, were all his daughters, and that he had a daughter named Mary. So at some point before 1569 (since Richard Berney mentions "each child of nephew Styles", implying there were at least two by 1571), Mary Berney married Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616).

"Edmund Stile" and "Mary Berney" were married 18 September 1559 St Mary Aldermanbury, London. I cannot uncover burial entries for either, but the will (PCC 39 Weldon) of "Edmund Style of Langley in the parish of Beckenham in the county of Kent", written February 1615, proved 22 May 1617, mentions that he wants to be buried in the parish church of Beckenham as close to the tomb of his father Sir Humphrey Style as possible, so we can be certain this is the correct Edmund Style. The will is in English, but in the script that I find difficult to make out. However, it does seem from my scan of it, that his wife Mary (Berney) must have predeceased him.

On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 11:29:16 AM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Brad briefly notes above that there are two lines of descent from Edward III for Mary Borlase in #14 above. There is also an Edward III descent for Elizabeth Watton in #17 above, as folows;

Thank you for this line, John. I've finished entering it into my database. Not only does it give a descent from Edward III for Elizabeth (Watton) (Bartholomew), Lady Twisden of Bradbourne, it also of course gives her a descent from Sir Thomas More.

I'm able to add some dates & details to the line.

> Edward III had a son,
> 1) John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster; m. (3) m. (3) Katherine de Roet
> 2) Joan Beaufort; m. (2) (his 2nd) Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland
> 3) Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury; m. Alice Montagu [or Montacute]
> 4) John Neville, 1st Marquis of Montagu; m. Isabel Ingoldsthorpe
> 5) Lucy Neville; m. (2) (his 2nd) Sir Anthony Browne
> 6) Sir Anthony Browne; m. (1) Alice Gage
> 7) Lucy Browne; m. Thomas Roper of Eltham
> 8) Martha Roper; m. Thomas Watton of Addington

Martha Roper (buried 10 April 1600 St Margaret Church, Addington, Kent), married by 1590, as his second wife, Thomas Watton of Addington Place (d. 16 September, bur. 17 September 1622 St Margaret Church, Addington).

> 9) William Watton; m. Elizabeth Simmons [or Symonds]

William Watton of Addington Place (born about 1591 (aged 28 at the 1619 Visitation); d. 28 October, bur. 4 November 1651 St Margaret Church, Addington), married by 1620, Elizabeth Symonds (will dated 30 March 1660, proved 6 November 1661), daughter of "John Symonds of Essex".

I've been unable to further identify John Symonds of Essex.

> 10) William Watton of Addington; m. Margaret Moreland

William Watton of Addington Place (bap. 20 June 1624 St Margaret Church, Addington; died 1661, bur. St Margaret Church, Addington), married Margaret Morland (bap. 27 March 1623 St Nicholas Church, Strood, Kent; d. 15 September, bur. 20 September 1679 St Margaret Church, Addington), dau of Augustine Morland of St Peter's Place, Strood (d. 1644) & Frances Attwood.

I've not been able to locate a burial entry for William Watton. For the Morlands of Strood, see 'The History of Strood' (1899) by Henry Smetham, who provides a pedigree on p. 190:
https://archive.org/details/historyofstrood00smetiala/page/190/mode/2up

> 11) Edmund Watton; m. Sarah NN

Edmund Watton of Addington Place (bap. 30 May 1652 St Peter & St Paul Church, Leybourne, Kent; bur. 16 April 1717 St Margaret Church, Addington), married 1st, Sarah ---- (bur. 17 December 1707 St Margaret Church, Addington).

I've not been able to further identify Sarah, the first wife of Edmund Watton. He married 2ndly, Anne Miller.

> 12) Elizabeth Watton; m. (1) Leonard Bartholomew

Elizabeth Watton (born 3 July, bap. 7 July 1703 St Margaret Church, Addington; d. 4 March, bur. 11 March 1775 St James Church, East Malling, Kent), married 1st 31 May 1726 St Katherine Cree, London, Leonard Bartholomew of Addington Place (bap. 9 May 1695 St Nicholas Church, Rochester, Kent; d. 4 October, bur. 8 October 1730 St Margaret Church, Addington). She married 2ndly, 10 January 1736 St Margaret Church, Addington, Sir Roger Twisden, 5th Baronet of Bradbourne (1705-1772).

> Thomas Watton of Addington, husband of Martha Roper in #8 above was the son of another Thomas Watton of Addington, who is variously said to have married a sister or daughter of Edmund Sheffield, 1st Baron Sheffield. If his wife was indeed a daughter of Lord Sheffield, she would have two Edward I descents (via Anne de Vere, wife of Lord Sheffield.
>
> The Watton pedigree in the 1619 visitation of Kent (Harleian Society, vol.. 42, p. 9) says that Thomas Watton married “Margareta soror Edmundi Baronis Sheffielde". If this is the case, then Thomas Watton's wife does not have Edward I descents.

John, I think chronology can prove that the Sheffield mother of Thomas Watton was the sister, not the daughter, of Edmund, 1st Baron Sheffield.

According to the Wikipedia entry for Henry Donn (d. 1586), a conspirator in the Babington Plot, "The Lord of the Manor [Addington] was Thomas Watton (1547–1622), married to Martha Roper, a great-granddaughter of Sir Thomas More":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Donn

I haven't yet verified the accuracy for the 1547 birthdate of Thomas Watton.. But given that he married his first wife, Mary Rutland (d. 1583) on 8 January 1572/3 St Margaret Church, Addington, the birthdate of 1547 seems reasonable.

Edmund, 1st Baron Sheffield (1521-1549) married "by 31 Jan 1537/8", Lady Anne de Vere, so it is chronologically impossible for that couple to be the maternal grandparents of a gentleman born in 1547. Thus, the Watton pedigree in the 1619 Visitation would appear to be correct in identifying the mother of Thomas Watton, husband of Martha Roper, as Margaret Sheffield, sister of Edmund, 1st Baron Sheffield. In my database, I've made her the daughter of Sir Robert Sheffield of Butterwick (d. 1531) and his second wife Margaret Zouche.

Thank you again, for your help with this line, and the ancestry of Frances (Bartholomew) Wingfield-Stratford (1775-1827).

Cheers, -----Brad

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 2:18:59 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 1:36:51 AM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
> > We know from the will of John Berney of Reedham (d. 1557), that Elizabeth Berney, Ela/Elleyne Berney, and Anne (Berney) Cudon, were all his daughters, and that he had a daughter named Mary. So at some point before 1569 (since Richard Berney mentions "each child of nephew Styles", implying there were at least two by 1571), Mary Berney married Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616).
>
> "Edmund Stile" and "Mary Berney" were married 18 September 1559 St Mary Aldermanbury, London. I cannot uncover burial entries for either, but the will (PCC 39 Weldon) of "Edmund Style of Langley in the parish of Beckenham in the county of Kent", written February 1615, proved 22 May 1617, mentions that he wants to be buried in the parish church of Beckenham as close to the tomb of his father Sir Humphrey Style as possible, so we can be certain this is the correct Edmund Style. The will is in English, but in the script that I find difficult to make out. However, it does seem from my scan of it, that his wife Mary (Berney) must have predeceased him.
> On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 11:29:16 AM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Brad briefly notes above that there are two lines of descent from Edward III for Mary Borlase in #14 above. There is also an Edward III descent for Elizabeth Watton in #17 above, as folows;
> Thank you for this line, John. I've finished entering it into my database.. Not only does it give a descent from Edward III for Elizabeth (Watton) (Bartholomew), Lady Twisden of Bradbourne, it also of course gives her a descent from Sir Thomas More.
>
> I'm able to add some dates & details to the line.
> > Edward III had a son,
> > 1) John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster; m. (3) m. (3) Katherine de Roet
> > 2) Joan Beaufort; m. (2) (his 2nd) Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland
> > 3) Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury; m. Alice Montagu [or Montacute]
> > 4) John Neville, 1st Marquis of Montagu; m. Isabel Ingoldsthorpe
> > 5) Lucy Neville; m. (2) (his 2nd) Sir Anthony Browne
> > 6) Sir Anthony Browne; m. (1) Alice Gage
> > 7) Lucy Browne; m. Thomas Roper of Eltham
> > 8) Martha Roper; m. Thomas Watton of Addington
> Martha Roper (buried 10 April 1600 St Margaret Church, Addington, Kent), married by 1590, as his second wife, Thomas Watton of Addington Place (d. 16 September, bur. 17 September 1622 St Margaret Church, Addington).
> > 9) William Watton; m. Elizabeth Simmons [or Symonds]
> William Watton of Addington Place (born about 1591 (aged 28 at the 1619 Visitation); d. 28 October, bur. 4 November 1651 St Margaret Church, Addington), married by 1620, Elizabeth Symonds (will dated 30 March 1660, proved 6 November 1661), daughter of "John Symonds of Essex".
>
> I've been unable to further identify John Symonds of Essex.
> > 10) William Watton of Addington; m. Margaret Moreland
> William Watton of Addington Place (bap. 20 June 1624 St Margaret Church, Addington; died 1661, bur. St Margaret Church, Addington), married Margaret Morland (bap. 27 March 1623 St Nicholas Church, Strood, Kent; d. 15 September, bur. 20 September 1679 St Margaret Church, Addington), dau of Augustine Morland of St Peter's Place, Strood (d. 1644) & Frances Attwood.
>
> I've not been able to locate a burial entry for William Watton. For the Morlands of Strood, see 'The History of Strood' (1899) by Henry Smetham, who provides a pedigree on p. 190:
> https://archive.org/details/historyofstrood00smetiala/page/190/mode/2up
> > 11) Edmund Watton; m. Sarah NN
> Edmund Watton of Addington Place (bap. 30 May 1652 St Peter & St Paul Church, Leybourne, Kent; bur. 16 April 1717 St Margaret Church, Addington), married 1st, Sarah ---- (bur. 17 December 1707 St Margaret Church, Addington)..
>
> I've not been able to further identify Sarah, the first wife of Edmund Watton. He married 2ndly, Anne Miller.
> > 12) Elizabeth Watton; m. (1) Leonard Bartholomew
> Elizabeth Watton (born 3 July, bap. 7 July 1703 St Margaret Church, Addington; d. 4 March, bur. 11 March 1775 St James Church, East Malling, Kent), married 1st 31 May 1726 St Katherine Cree, London, Leonard Bartholomew of Addington Place (bap. 9 May 1695 St Nicholas Church, Rochester, Kent; d. 4 October, bur. 8 October 1730 St Margaret Church, Addington). She married 2ndly, 10 January 1736 St Margaret Church, Addington, Sir Roger Twisden, 5th Baronet of Bradbourne (1705-1772).
> > Thomas Watton of Addington, husband of Martha Roper in #8 above was the son of another Thomas Watton of Addington, who is variously said to have married a sister or daughter of Edmund Sheffield, 1st Baron Sheffield. If his wife was indeed a daughter of Lord Sheffield, she would have two Edward I descents (via Anne de Vere, wife of Lord Sheffield.
> >
> > The Watton pedigree in the 1619 visitation of Kent (Harleian Society, vol. 42, p. 9) says that Thomas Watton married “Margareta soror Edmundi Baronis Sheffielde". If this is the case, then Thomas Watton's wife does not have Edward I descents.
> John, I think chronology can prove that the Sheffield mother of Thomas Watton was the sister, not the daughter, of Edmund, 1st Baron Sheffield.
>
> According to the Wikipedia entry for Henry Donn (d. 1586), a conspirator in the Babington Plot, "The Lord of the Manor [Addington] was Thomas Watton (1547–1622), married to Martha Roper, a great-granddaughter of Sir Thomas More":
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Donn
>
> I haven't yet verified the accuracy for the 1547 birthdate of Thomas Watton. But given that he married his first wife, Mary Rutland (d. 1583) on 8 January 1572/3 St Margaret Church, Addington, the birthdate of 1547 seems reasonable.
>
> Edmund, 1st Baron Sheffield (1521-1549) married "by 31 Jan 1537/8", Lady Anne de Vere, so it is chronologically impossible for that couple to be the maternal grandparents of a gentleman born in 1547. Thus, the Watton pedigree in the 1619 Visitation would appear to be correct in identifying the mother of Thomas Watton, husband of Martha Roper, as Margaret Sheffield, sister of Edmund, 1st Baron Sheffield. In my database, I've made her the daughter of Sir Robert Sheffield of Butterwick (d. 1531) and his second wife Margaret Zouche.
>
> Thank you again, for your help with this line, and the ancestry of Frances (Bartholomew) Wingfield-Stratford (1775-1827).
>
> Cheers, -----Brad

I've looked at the will of Edmund Style. No wife is mentioned. His brothers Nicholas
and Oliver are mentioned. The executors were Edmund's sons William and Edmund.

Leslie

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 11:44:38 PM UTC-8, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> I've looked at the will of Edmund Style. No wife is mentioned. His brothers Nicholas
> and Oliver are mentioned. The executors were Edmund's sons William and Edmund.

Thank you, Leslie.

Lettice Needham was baptised 11 Dec 1616 Offley, co Hert
the daughter of

Eustace /Needham/ of Little Wymondley, co Hert; esq
and his first wife
Anne Norton
married 30 Nov 1615 Offley, co Hert

Meanwhile back at the ranch

William /Gery/ of Bushmead Priory, co Bed; esq
was baptised
15 Aug 1613 Little Staughton, co Bed (Batch P022171 wj)

son of Anne /Franklyn/
by her husband
Richard /Gery/ of Bishmead, co Bed; esq; Gentleman of the Privy Chamber to King James

Anne was the daughter of Anne /Style/, the sister to Margart above

So we get for both Anne and Margaret, combined with the 1559 marriage cited previously
a birth range of
1560-1583

On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 1:39:04 AM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
> Hello, I’m currently exploring the ancestry of Frances Bartholomew (1775-1827), the first wife of Hon. John Wingfield-Stratford of Addington Place, Kent (1772-1850), 2nd son of the 3rd Viscount Powerscourt, to trace all Edward I descents for her. Frances can be found in the Genealogics database, here:
> https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00224441&tree=LEO
>
> From ‘Record of the Bartholomew Family’ Part 2 (1885) by George Wells Bartholomew, Frances’s paternal ancestor, Leonard Bartholomew (1655-1720) “married Elizabeth, daughter of Humphrey Miller of Oxenhoath, baronet” [p. 640]:
> https://archive.org/details/recordofbartholo02bart/page/512/mode/2up
>
> So, Frances (Bartholomew) Wingfield-Stratford has a potential 19-generation descent from Edward I:
>
> Edward I had a dau:
> 1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307), who had
> 2) Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337), who had
> 3) Isabel le Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356), who had
> 4) Sir Edmund Arundel (1327-1381), who had
> 5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399), who had
> 6) Elizabeth Cergeaux (b. c.1371), who had
> 7) Anne Marney m. Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476), and had
> 8) Humphrey Tyrrell of Little Warley Hall (d. 1507) m. 1) Isabel Helion, and had
> 9) Anne Tyrrell (1474-1534) m. Sir Roger Wentworth of Codham Hall, and had
> 10) Margaret Wentworth m. 1) John Berney of Reedham (by 1485-1527), and had
> 11) John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) m. 1) Margaret Reade (d. 1548), and had
> 12) Mary Berney m. Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616), and had
> 13) William Style, Heir of Langley Park (d. 1615) m. 1) Anne Eversfield, and had
> 14) Anne Style m. Sir Nicholas Miller of Oxenhoath (c.1592-1658), and had
> 15) Sir Humphrey Miller, 1st Baronet of Oxenhoath (c.1635-1709) m. 1) Mary Borlase*, and had
> 16) Elizabeth Miller (c.1664-1720) m. Leonard Bartholomew of Rochester, and had
> 17) Leonard Bartholomew of Addington Place (d. 1757) m. Elizabeth Watton, and had
> 18) Leonard Bartholomew of Addington Place (1728-1810) m. Frances Wildash, and had
> 19) Frances Bartholomew (1775-1827) m. Hon. John Wingfield-Stratford
>
> *The evidence for Generations 14 and 15 above is in Complete Baronetage Volume 3, p. 125. It should be noted that Mary (Borlase), Lady Miller has two lines of descent from Edward III, one of those thru Cardinal Beaufort. But I’m focusing on this possible Edward I descent for her husband the first baronet.
> https://archive.org/details/cu31924092524390/page/n144/mode/2up
>
> The evidence for Generations 12 thru 14 above is in Betham’s ‘Baronetage’ Volume 1, p. 295, where he says that Edmund Style of Langley “married Mary, daughter of John Berney, of Reedham, in Norfolk”:
> https://archive.org/details/baronetageengla00unkngoog/page/295/mode/2up
>
> The problem with this line of descent lies with this Mary (Berney) Style. This unsourced Wikitree entry has Mary as the daughter of John Berney of Reedham and Margaret Reade:
> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Berney-17
>
> Generations 1 thru 11 above are well-covered in several published works on royal descent, including Douglas Richardson’s ‘Plantagenet Ancestry’ 2nd Edition (2011). But in that work, Douglas states that John Berney and his 1st wife Margaret Reade had “five daughters, Mary (wife of Robert Jenney, Esq.), Thomasine (wife of Thomas Osborn, Esq.), Elizabeth, Ursula, and Ela” [p. 297]:
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Plantagenet_Ancestry_A_Study_In_Colonial/kjme027UeagC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=john+berney+married+margaret+reade&pg=RA1-PA297&printsec=frontcover
>
> One of Douglas’s sources for his entry on John Berney is the Barney pedigree in ‘The Visitations of Norfolk, 1563, 1589 and 1613’ edited by Walter Rye (Harleian Society Volume 32 (1891)), pp. 16-17. But that pedigree only gives John Berney and Margaret Reade one daughter, “Mary ux. Will. Denny of Heringfleet in co. Suff., esq.”:
> https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/16/mode/2up
>
> Another of Douglas’s sources is William Betham’s Baronetage Vol. 1 (1801), p. 182, where Betham states that John Berney and Margaret Reade had four daughters, “Thomasine, the wife of Thomas Osborne of Kirby Bedon, Esq. another, the wife of – Sydnor of Blundeston, Esq. Mary, of Robert Jenney of Herringfleet; and the youngest of --- Cuddon of Shadingfield, all in Suffolk”:
> https://archive.org/details/baronetageengla00unkngoog/page/182/mode/2up
>
> So we now have Mary Berney, daughter of John Berney of Reedham and Margaret Reade, with three potential husbands:
> 1) Edmund Style of Langley Hall, parish of Beckenham, Kent – per William Betham in 1801 (though to be fair he doesn’t state which John Berney of Reedham was Edmund Style’s father-in-law).
> 2) Robert Jenney of Herringfleet, Suffolk – again per William Betham in 1801
> 3) William Denny of Herringfleet, Suffolk – per a pedigree edited by Walter Rye in 1891
>
> Per the Jenney of Herringfleet pedigree in the 1561 Visitation of Suffolk, “Robert Jenney of Herringfleet, Gent., son and heir to Richard, mar. Marye, da. to John Barney of Reedham, co. Norf., Esq., and by her had issue…” [p. 46]:
> https://archive.org/details/visitationsofsuf00harvuoft/page/46/mode/2up
>
> Per Walter Coppinger’s ‘The Manors of Suffolk’ Volume 5 (19), sub ‘Manor of Loudham and Titsall’s Herringfleet’, p. 46, “At all events, this Robert [Jenny] had the manor, and we find that in 1542 he and Mary his wife levied a fine against Francis Jenny and Margaret his wife. Robert Jenny married Mary, daughter of John Berney, of Reedham, and died in 1559, when the manor passed to his son and heir, John Jenny”:
> https://archive.org/details/manorsofsuffolkn05copiuoft/page/46/mode/2up
>
> So Robert Jenny of Loudham in Herringfleet and Mary Berney were married by 1542. But the John Berney of Reedham who married Margaret Reade was “born about 1518 (aged 18 in 1536)”, per Douglas Richardson. That doesn’t work chronologically. It turns out John Berney was actually born about 1510 (aged 18 in 1528), but that still doesn’t work chronologically.
> https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/h8_5r8pMg7A/m/P0BWF4Nn_8oJ
>
> Joan Corder’s edition of ‘The Visitation of Suffolk 1561’ Part 2 (Harleian Society New Series Volume 3 (1984)), p. 341, has Robert Jenney of Titsall’s manor in Herringfleet died 1559 “Married Mary, daughter of John Berney, of Reedham, co. Norfolk. After Jenney’s death Mary married Henry Brampton, of Fritton…”:
> https://books.google.com/books?newbks=0&id=2Xc0SkVQAycC&dq=robert+jenney+of+herringfleet&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=reedham
>
> One of the sources cited by Corder is the Barney pedigree in the Visitation of London 1568, and it is this pedigree which solves the chronological dilemma. “Mary 1 da. maried to Robert Jenney after to – Brampton” was actually the daughter of John Berney of Reedham and Margaret Wentworth, and the sister of the John Berney of Reedham who married Margaret Reade:
> https://archive.org/details/visitationoflond00cook/page/58/mode/2up
>
> With Mary Berney, wife of Robert Jenney (d. 1559) now moved a generation back, that leaves the possibility that John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife Margaret Reade had their own daughter Mary Berney, as in the Barney pedigree in the 1891 Visitation of Norfolk volume, where she is married to William Denny. In that same volume, Walter Rye has a Denny pedigree in which “William Denny, esqr, 2nd son [of Sir Robert Denny and Frances Tresham] = Mary da. of Jo. Berney of Reedham in co. Norf.” [pp. 102-103]:
> https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/102/mode/2up
>
> However, a query by Rev. H.L.L. Denny to ‘Notes and Queries’ in 1905 casts into doubt the accuracy of the 1891 Denny pedigree by Walter Rye [pp 249-250]: “But to the original MS. of the Visitation an addition has been made, in a different ink, by an apparently later hand. This gives as wife to Robert Denny ‘Frances, dau. Trigham [or Tresham], Esq., of co. Northants,’ and makes him have a second son William, who, by a Barney of Reedham, Norfolk, had Thomas and Syndrack Denny, who left numerous issue. This whole pedigree, addition and all, is printed in the Harleian Society’s ‘Visitation of Norfolk.’…I am myself inclined to think that this unconsidered younger son, Robert Denny, has been made by some enterprising genealogist a peg whereupon to hang a pedigree.”:
> https://books.google.com/books?id=S92ddIdH3UIC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=Sir+Robert+Denny+married+Frances+Tresham&source=bl&ots=cS41V1cr_i&sig=ACfU3U13GBmpIYO7gugbsDvWetO4sCpLBg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjNgca9hYj0AhXRwJ4KHW8kDd8Q6AF6BAgPEAM#v=onepage&q=Sir%20Robert%20Denny%20married%20Frances%20Tresham&f=false
>
> John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) did have a daughter named Mary, who, along with her sisters Thomasine, Elizabeth, Ursula and Ela, was under age 18 and not yet married when he wrote his will (dated 30 January 1554), “daughter Mary Berney - a flower of gold with diamonds, which was her mother's … my said daughters Mary, Thomasyne, Elizabeth, Ursula & Ele - 100 marks each at age 18 or day of marriage, with remainder to my son Henry Berney; my daughters to marry with the consent of my mother, my brother in law Augustine Stywarde, my sister Harward & my executors;if not, then to have only £20”:
> https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0110.html
>
> Does anyone know of a detailed pedigree, or article, on the Style family of Langley Park? The chronology suggests that the Mary Berney who was the wife of Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616) would fit as the daughter of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife Margaret Reade (d.. 1548) named Mary.
>
> Cheers, -----Brad

On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 1:39:04 AM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
> Hello, I’m currently exploring the ancestry of Frances Bartholomew (1775-1827), the first wife of Hon. John Wingfield-Stratford of Addington Place, Kent (1772-1850), 2nd son of the 3rd Viscount Powerscourt, to trace all Edward I descents for her. Frances can be found in the Genealogics database, here:
> https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00224441&tree=LEO
>
> From ‘Record of the Bartholomew Family’ Part 2 (1885) by George Wells Bartholomew, Frances’s paternal ancestor, Leonard Bartholomew (1655-1720) “married Elizabeth, daughter of Humphrey Miller of Oxenhoath, baronet” [p. 640]:
> https://archive.org/details/recordofbartholo02bart/page/512/mode/2up
>
> So, Frances (Bartholomew) Wingfield-Stratford has a potential 19-generation descent from Edward I:
>
> Edward I had a dau:
> 1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307), who had
> 2) Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337), who had
> 3) Isabel le Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356), who had
> 4) Sir Edmund Arundel (1327-1381), who had
> 5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399), who had
> 6) Elizabeth Cergeaux (b. c.1371), who had
> 7) Anne Marney m. Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476), and had
> 8) Humphrey Tyrrell of Little Warley Hall (d. 1507) m. 1) Isabel Helion, and had
> 9) Anne Tyrrell (1474-1534) m. Sir Roger Wentworth of Codham Hall, and had
> 10) Margaret Wentworth m. 1) John Berney of Reedham (by 1485-1527), and had
> 11) John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) m. 1) Margaret Reade (d. 1548), and had
> 12) Mary Berney m. Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616), and had
> 13) William Style, Heir of Langley Park (d. 1615) m. 1) Anne Eversfield, and had
> 14) Anne Style m. Sir Nicholas Miller of Oxenhoath (c.1592-1658), and had
> 15) Sir Humphrey Miller, 1st Baronet of Oxenhoath (c.1635-1709) m. 1) Mary Borlase*, and had
> 16) Elizabeth Miller (c.1664-1720) m. Leonard Bartholomew of Rochester, and had
> 17) Leonard Bartholomew of Addington Place (d. 1757) m. Elizabeth Watton, and had
> 18) Leonard Bartholomew of Addington Place (1728-1810) m. Frances Wildash, and had
> 19) Frances Bartholomew (1775-1827) m. Hon. John Wingfield-Stratford
>
> *The evidence for Generations 14 and 15 above is in Complete Baronetage Volume 3, p. 125. It should be noted that Mary (Borlase), Lady Miller has two lines of descent from Edward III, one of those thru Cardinal Beaufort. But I’m focusing on this possible Edward I descent for her husband the first baronet.
> https://archive.org/details/cu31924092524390/page/n144/mode/2up
>
> The evidence for Generations 12 thru 14 above is in Betham’s ‘Baronetage’ Volume 1, p. 295, where he says that Edmund Style of Langley “married Mary, daughter of John Berney, of Reedham, in Norfolk”:
> https://archive.org/details/baronetageengla00unkngoog/page/295/mode/2up
>
> The problem with this line of descent lies with this Mary (Berney) Style. This unsourced Wikitree entry has Mary as the daughter of John Berney of Reedham and Margaret Reade:
> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Berney-17
>
> Generations 1 thru 11 above are well-covered in several published works on royal descent, including Douglas Richardson’s ‘Plantagenet Ancestry’ 2nd Edition (2011). But in that work, Douglas states that John Berney and his 1st wife Margaret Reade had “five daughters, Mary (wife of Robert Jenney, Esq.), Thomasine (wife of Thomas Osborn, Esq.), Elizabeth, Ursula, and Ela” [p. 297]:
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Plantagenet_Ancestry_A_Study_In_Colonial/kjme027UeagC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=john+berney+married+margaret+reade&pg=RA1-PA297&printsec=frontcover
>
> One of Douglas’s sources for his entry on John Berney is the Barney pedigree in ‘The Visitations of Norfolk, 1563, 1589 and 1613’ edited by Walter Rye (Harleian Society Volume 32 (1891)), pp. 16-17. But that pedigree only gives John Berney and Margaret Reade one daughter, “Mary ux. Will. Denny of Heringfleet in co. Suff., esq.”:
> https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/16/mode/2up
>
> Another of Douglas’s sources is William Betham’s Baronetage Vol. 1 (1801), p. 182, where Betham states that John Berney and Margaret Reade had four daughters, “Thomasine, the wife of Thomas Osborne of Kirby Bedon, Esq. another, the wife of – Sydnor of Blundeston, Esq. Mary, of Robert Jenney of Herringfleet; and the youngest of --- Cuddon of Shadingfield, all in Suffolk”:
> https://archive.org/details/baronetageengla00unkngoog/page/182/mode/2up
>
> So we now have Mary Berney, daughter of John Berney of Reedham and Margaret Reade, with three potential husbands:
> 1) Edmund Style of Langley Hall, parish of Beckenham, Kent – per William Betham in 1801 (though to be fair he doesn’t state which John Berney of Reedham was Edmund Style’s father-in-law).
> 2) Robert Jenney of Herringfleet, Suffolk – again per William Betham in 1801
> 3) William Denny of Herringfleet, Suffolk – per a pedigree edited by Walter Rye in 1891
>
> Per the Jenney of Herringfleet pedigree in the 1561 Visitation of Suffolk, “Robert Jenney of Herringfleet, Gent., son and heir to Richard, mar. Marye, da. to John Barney of Reedham, co. Norf., Esq., and by her had issue…” [p. 46]:
> https://archive.org/details/visitationsofsuf00harvuoft/page/46/mode/2up
>
> Per Walter Coppinger’s ‘The Manors of Suffolk’ Volume 5 (19), sub ‘Manor of Loudham and Titsall’s Herringfleet’, p. 46, “At all events, this Robert [Jenny] had the manor, and we find that in 1542 he and Mary his wife levied a fine against Francis Jenny and Margaret his wife. Robert Jenny married Mary, daughter of John Berney, of Reedham, and died in 1559, when the manor passed to his son and heir, John Jenny”:
> https://archive.org/details/manorsofsuffolkn05copiuoft/page/46/mode/2up
>
> So Robert Jenny of Loudham in Herringfleet and Mary Berney were married by 1542. But the John Berney of Reedham who married Margaret Reade was “born about 1518 (aged 18 in 1536)”, per Douglas Richardson. That doesn’t work chronologically. It turns out John Berney was actually born about 1510 (aged 18 in 1528), but that still doesn’t work chronologically.
> https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/h8_5r8pMg7A/m/P0BWF4Nn_8oJ
>
> Joan Corder’s edition of ‘The Visitation of Suffolk 1561’ Part 2 (Harleian Society New Series Volume 3 (1984)), p. 341, has Robert Jenney of Titsall’s manor in Herringfleet died 1559 “Married Mary, daughter of John Berney, of Reedham, co. Norfolk. After Jenney’s death Mary married Henry Brampton, of Fritton…”:
> https://books.google.com/books?newbks=0&id=2Xc0SkVQAycC&dq=robert+jenney+of+herringfleet&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=reedham
>
> One of the sources cited by Corder is the Barney pedigree in the Visitation of London 1568, and it is this pedigree which solves the chronological dilemma. “Mary 1 da. maried to Robert Jenney after to – Brampton” was actually the daughter of John Berney of Reedham and Margaret Wentworth, and the sister of the John Berney of Reedham who married Margaret Reade:
> https://archive.org/details/visitationoflond00cook/page/58/mode/2up
>
> With Mary Berney, wife of Robert Jenney (d. 1559) now moved a generation back, that leaves the possibility that John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife Margaret Reade had their own daughter Mary Berney, as in the Barney pedigree in the 1891 Visitation of Norfolk volume, where she is married to William Denny. In that same volume, Walter Rye has a Denny pedigree in which “William Denny, esqr, 2nd son [of Sir Robert Denny and Frances Tresham] = Mary da. of Jo. Berney of Reedham in co. Norf.” [pp. 102-103]:
> https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/102/mode/2up
>
> However, a query by Rev. H.L.L. Denny to ‘Notes and Queries’ in 1905 casts into doubt the accuracy of the 1891 Denny pedigree by Walter Rye [pp 249-250]: “But to the original MS. of the Visitation an addition has been made, in a different ink, by an apparently later hand. This gives as wife to Robert Denny ‘Frances, dau. Trigham [or Tresham], Esq., of co. Northants,’ and makes him have a second son William, who, by a Barney of Reedham, Norfolk, had Thomas and Syndrack Denny, who left numerous issue. This whole pedigree, addition and all, is printed in the Harleian Society’s ‘Visitation of Norfolk.’…I am myself inclined to think that this unconsidered younger son, Robert Denny, has been made by some enterprising genealogist a peg whereupon to hang a pedigree.”:
> https://books.google.com/books?id=S92ddIdH3UIC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=Sir+Robert+Denny+married+Frances+Tresham&source=bl&ots=cS41V1cr_i&sig=ACfU3U13GBmpIYO7gugbsDvWetO4sCpLBg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjNgca9hYj0AhXRwJ4KHW8kDd8Q6AF6BAgPEAM#v=onepage&q=Sir%20Robert%20Denny%20married%20Frances%20Tresham&f=false
>
> John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) did have a daughter named Mary, who, along with her sisters Thomasine, Elizabeth, Ursula and Ela, was under age 18 and not yet married when he wrote his will (dated 30 January 1554), “daughter Mary Berney - a flower of gold with diamonds, which was her mother's … my said daughters Mary, Thomasyne, Elizabeth, Ursula & Ele - 100 marks each at age 18 or day of marriage, with remainder to my son Henry Berney; my daughters to marry with the consent of my mother, my brother in law Augustine Stywarde, my sister Harward & my executors;if not, then to have only £20”:
> https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0110.html
>
> Does anyone know of a detailed pedigree, or article, on the Style family of Langley Park? The chronology suggests that the Mary Berney who was the wife of Edmund Style of Langley Park (1538-1616) would fit as the daughter of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557) and his first wife Margaret Reade (d.. 1548) named Mary.
>
> Cheers, -----Brad

What was the deleted message?

On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 7:00:32 PM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> Once again this line is in my sights! This time it looks like it is my ancestry, and I had no idea.

That's great, Darrell - I'm glad the post is of use to your research!

> Did Douglas ever confirm that this was correct or incorrect? Thank you!

No, Douglas hasn't commented.

> **************************************************************************
>
> Thomasine Berney, daughter of John Berney and Margaret Read and wife of Thomas Osborn/Osborne
>
> Sources:
> "five daughters, Mary (wife of Robert Jenney, Esq.), Thomasine (wife of Thomas Osborn, Esq.), Elizabeth, Ursula, and Ela"
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Plantagenet_Ancestry_A_Study_In_Colonial/kjme027UeagC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Berney%20Osborn
>
> "John Berney, who first married Margaret, daughter of William Reade of Beccles, in Suffolk ... He died in 1557, having issue Thomasine, the wife of Thomas Osborne of Kirby Bedon, Esq."
> https://archive.org/details/baronetageengla00unkngoog/page/182/mode/1up
>
> "Thomas Osborne=Thomazin, da. to John Barney in Com. Norf., [daughter] Elizabeth ux. Owen Sheppard of Kirkby."
> https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/210/mode/1up?
>
> Owen Sheppard was the father of Thomasine Sheppard, who married William Barnes of East Winch, Norfolk.

Yes, this is correct - Thomasine (Sheppard) Barnes is descended from Edward I through her mother.

I was able to locate a few dates:
THOMASINE BERNEY, dau of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557, descended from Edward I) & his 1st wife Margaret Reade (d. 1548) married, as his 1st wife, Thomas Osborne of Kirby Bedon, Norfolk (bur. 28 July 1616 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon), son of Robert Osborne of Kirby Bedon (d. 1572) & Mary Bendish, and had one daughter:

ELIZABETH OSBORNE, bur. 21 Oct. 1630 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon; married 28 April 1590 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon, Owen Sheppard of Kirby Bedon (bur. 19 July 1629 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon).

Hope this helps.

Cheers, ----Brad

On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 10:58:18 AM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 7:00:32 PM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > Once again this line is in my sights! This time it looks like it is my ancestry, and I had no idea.
> That's great, Darrell - I'm glad the post is of use to your research!
> > Did Douglas ever confirm that this was correct or incorrect? Thank you!
> No, Douglas hasn't commented.
> > **************************************************************************
> >
> > Thomasine Berney, daughter of John Berney and Margaret Read and wife of Thomas Osborn/Osborne
> >
> > Sources:
> > "five daughters, Mary (wife of Robert Jenney, Esq.), Thomasine (wife of Thomas Osborn, Esq.), Elizabeth, Ursula, and Ela"
> > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Plantagenet_Ancestry_A_Study_In_Colonial/kjme027UeagC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Berney%20Osborn
> >
> > "John Berney, who first married Margaret, daughter of William Reade of Beccles, in Suffolk ... He died in 1557, having issue Thomasine, the wife of Thomas Osborne of Kirby Bedon, Esq."
> > https://archive.org/details/baronetageengla00unkngoog/page/182/mode/1up
> >
> > "Thomas Osborne=Thomazin, da. to John Barney in Com. Norf., [daughter] Elizabeth ux. Owen Sheppard of Kirkby."
> > https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/210/mode/1up?
> >
> > Owen Sheppard was the father of Thomasine Sheppard, who married William Barnes of East Winch, Norfolk.
> Yes, this is correct - Thomasine (Sheppard) Barnes is descended from Edward I through her mother.
>
> I was able to locate a few dates:
> THOMASINE BERNEY, dau of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557, descended from Edward I) & his 1st wife Margaret Reade (d. 1548) married, as his 1st wife, Thomas Osborne of Kirby Bedon, Norfolk (bur. 28 July 1616 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon), son of Robert Osborne of Kirby Bedon (d. 1572) & Mary Bendish, and had one daughter:
>
> ELIZABETH OSBORNE, bur. 21 Oct. 1630 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon; married 28 April 1590 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon, Owen Sheppard of Kirby Bedon (bur. 19 July 1629 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon).
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Cheers, ----Brad

Brad I note that you have "ca 1510" for John Berney (or Barney) of Reedham
However we know that he was "aged 18" in 1532

On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 11:32:51 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> Brad I note that you have "ca 1510" for John Berney (or Barney) of Reedham
> However we know that he was "aged 18" in 1532

Will, this was discussed back in 2012. The IPM for John Berney's father was misdated - it was actually 1528-9 when John Berney was returned as age 18.
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/h8_5r8pMg7A/m/P0BWF4Nn_8oJ

Cheers, ---Brad

Looking at this Visitation, they mention an Ambrose Fisk of Wells
There was a man of this name buried at Wells in 1586
I wonder if this could be he

On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 1:58:18 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 7:00:32 PM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > Once again this line is in my sights! This time it looks like it is my ancestry, and I had no idea.
> That's great, Darrell - I'm glad the post is of use to your research!
> > Did Douglas ever confirm that this was correct or incorrect? Thank you!
> No, Douglas hasn't commented.
> > **************************************************************************
> >
> > Thomasine Berney, daughter of John Berney and Margaret Read and wife of Thomas Osborn/Osborne
> >
> > Sources:
> > "five daughters, Mary (wife of Robert Jenney, Esq.), Thomasine (wife of Thomas Osborn, Esq.), Elizabeth, Ursula, and Ela"
> > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Plantagenet_Ancestry_A_Study_In_Colonial/kjme027UeagC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Berney%20Osborn
> >
> > "John Berney, who first married Margaret, daughter of William Reade of Beccles, in Suffolk ... He died in 1557, having issue Thomasine, the wife of Thomas Osborne of Kirby Bedon, Esq."
> > https://archive.org/details/baronetageengla00unkngoog/page/182/mode/1up
> >
> > "Thomas Osborne=Thomazin, da. to John Barney in Com. Norf., [daughter] Elizabeth ux. Owen Sheppard of Kirkby."
> > https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/210/mode/1up?
> >
> > Owen Sheppard was the father of Thomasine Sheppard, who married William Barnes of East Winch, Norfolk.
> Yes, this is correct - Thomasine (Sheppard) Barnes is descended from Edward I through her mother.
>
> I was able to locate a few dates:
> THOMASINE BERNEY, dau of John Berney of Reedham (c.1510-1557, descended from Edward I) & his 1st wife Margaret Reade (d. 1548) married, as his 1st wife, Thomas Osborne of Kirby Bedon, Norfolk (bur. 28 July 1616 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon), son of Robert Osborne of Kirby Bedon (d. 1572) & Mary Bendish, and had one daughter:
>
> ELIZABETH OSBORNE, bur. 21 Oct. 1630 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon; married 28 April 1590 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon, Owen Sheppard of Kirby Bedon (bur. 19 July 1629 St Andrew Church, Kirby Bedon).
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Cheers, ----Brad

Brad,

This helps a LOT! Thank you so much!

Initially I started this quest documenting piece by piece the ancestry of Charles Barnes of Long Island to John FitzRobert Clavering, and when I first responded to you I was at Anne Calthorpe Drury and John Berney was a part of my research into a collateral line.

Last night my mother was asking for the nth time to share some of my research and I was trying to share the John FitzRobert line in an easy to produce chart when the relationship calculator at WikiTree gave me a connection through Berney->Osborne->Sheppard->Barnes, which at first I thought was fanciful and whoever added the profile of Thomasine Berney didn't source her at all, hence why I came here and found your notes. Of course it being John Berney of Reedham really gave me a big laugh as I instantly knew it from before.

Basically I am now older and I am fearful that my family research I have been conducting over the last 29 years will be lost as I have no one in my line who really researches our family like I have. I have been working with WikiTree to help improve profiles and get my research out there to try and preserve it. This new Magna Carta Surety Barons line has floored me and if it wasn't for the hard work of people here like yourself dedicated to ensuring proven lines I would be very much behind.

Thank you again!

Darrell E. Larocque