On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
>
>> D wrote :
>>
>>> Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I have nothing
>>> against, but climate change has reached levels of mass hysteria.
>>>
>>> What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying around in private
>>> jets btw.) have lost all connection with the people in europe, and are
>>> literally talking about crushing the livelihood of farmers.
>>
>> The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York City will soon
>> be cracking down on businesses that use wood fired or coal fired ovens.
>>
>> https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
>
> Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure. ;) In
> sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a fire in the fire
> place of my apartment. I spoke with a german colleague the other day and
> apparently that is illegal in germany, but many people who live in the
> country side do it anyway.
>
> Completely absurd!

Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon emissions,
I am surprised that there are not a lot more restrictions on burning
wood in fireplaces or heating homes with wood stoves.

On 3/17/2024 9:31 AM, GM wrote:
> D wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
>
>>> D wrote :
>>>
>>>> Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I have nothing
>>>> against, but climate change has reached levels of mass hysteria.
>>>>
>>>> What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying around in private
>>>> jets btw.) have lost all connection with the people in europe, and are
>>>> literally talking about crushing the livelihood of farmers.
>>>
>>> The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York City will soon
>>> be cracking down on businesses that use wood fired or coal fired ovens.
>>>
>>> https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
>
>> Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure. ;) In
>> sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a fire in the fire
>> place of my apartment. I spoke with a german colleague the other day and
>> apparently that is illegal in germany, but many people who live in the
>> country side do it anyway.
>
>> Completely absurd!
>
>
> In the German countryside I've read instances of people reverting to
> using *wood* for their primary heating source, as the German state has
> gone "green" and fuel prices have risen astronomically...!!!
>

We had a woman at work that grew up in Austria before the war. She said
Hitler was a good guy, he made sure they had firewood. Besides, it was
only some Jews that got hurt.

On 2024-03-17 10:15 a.m., Ed P wrote:
> On 3/17/2024 9:31 AM, GM wrote:

>> In the German countryside I've read instances of people reverting to
>> using *wood* for their primary heating source, as the German state has
>> gone "green" and fuel prices have risen astronomically...!!!
>>
>
> We had a woman at work that grew up in Austria before the war.  She said
> Hitler was a good guy, he made sure they had firewood.  Besides, it was
> only some Jews that got hurt.

She sounds like my sister in law. She was born and raised in Vienna.
She was about 5 when the war started. She said that Hitler was their
hero. He had turned the economy around. People were working and
prospering again. He built roads and other infrastructure and united the
German people. But.... then he got carried away and things went all to
Hell on them.

Ed P wrote:

> On 3/17/2024 9:31 AM, GM wrote:
>> D wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
>>
>>>> D wrote :
>>>>
>>>>> Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I have nothing
>>>>> against, but climate change has reached levels of mass hysteria.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying around in private
>>>>> jets btw.) have lost all connection with the people in europe, and are
>>>>> literally talking about crushing the livelihood of farmers.
>>>>
>>>> The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York City will soon
>>>> be cracking down on businesses that use wood fired or coal fired ovens.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
>>
>>> Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure. ;) In
>>> sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a fire in the fire
>>> place of my apartment. I spoke with a german colleague the other day and
>>> apparently that is illegal in germany, but many people who live in the
>>> country side do it anyway.
>>
>>> Completely absurd!
>>
>>
>> In the German countryside I've read instances of people reverting to
>> using *wood* for their primary heating source, as the German state has
>> gone "green" and fuel prices have risen astronomically...!!!
>>

> We had a woman at work that grew up in Austria before the war. She said
> Hitler was a good guy, he made sure they had firewood. Besides, it was
> only some Jews that got hurt.

When I visited the old communist East Germany in the late 70's, residents of old buildings
still used charcoal briquets or even just brown coal to heat their flats, they still used those old - fashioned heating stoves...

One of the reasons the old East Germany was one of the most polluted places on the planet... the only domestic energy source was cheap polluintg brown coal, mined in vast open pits...

Russia supplied East Germany's petro needs, but the East Germans turned around and sold the Russian petroleum products to Western Europe, in order to earn much - needed "hard currency"...

East German roads were in generally terrible shape, because the oil components that would have been used for asphalt were instead sold to the West...

Then there was the infamous East German "Trabant" car, which spewed huge amounts of smoke, further polluting the place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant

"The Trabant's build quality was poor, and it was loud, slow, and poorly designed... Known for its dull colour scheme and cramped, uncomfortable ride, the Trabant is an object of ridicule for many Germans and is regarded as symbolic of the fall of the Eastern Bloc. Known as a "spark plug with a roof" because of its small size, the car did gain public affection.

The engine produced a very smoky exhaust and was a significant source of air pollution: nine times the hydrocarbons and five times the carbon-monoxide emissions of the average European car..."

--
GM

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, Dave Smith wrote:

> On 2024-03-17 10:15 a.m., Ed P wrote:
>> On 3/17/2024 9:31 AM, GM wrote:
>
>>> In the German countryside I've read instances of people reverting to using
>>> *wood* for their primary heating source, as the German state has gone
>>> "green" and fuel prices have risen astronomically...!!!
>>>
>>
>> We had a woman at work that grew up in Austria before the war.  She said
>> Hitler was a good guy, he made sure they had firewood.  Besides, it was
>> only some Jews that got hurt.
>
>
> She sounds like my sister in law. She was born and raised in Vienna. She was
> about 5 when the war started. She said that Hitler was their hero. He had
> turned the economy around. People were working and prospering again. He built
> roads and other infrastructure and united the German people. But.... then
> he got carried away and things went all to Hell on them.
>

That will happen again if environmental policies destroy enough of europes
economy. Then a "great guy" will come and abolish all of it and the
economy will start to prosper again, and he will then let his favourite
hate-group take the blame and kill them. Mismanaged and crashing economies
is the best way to get Hitlers to pop up in europe, and with the green
ideas of europe, economies will crash.

On 3/17/2024 10:15 AM, Ed P wrote:
> On 3/17/2024 9:31 AM, GM wrote:
>> In the German countryside I've read instances of people reverting to
>> using *wood* for their primary heating source, as the German state has
>> gone "green" and fuel prices have risen astronomically...!!!
>>
>
> We had a woman at work that grew up in Austria before the war.  She said
> Hitler was a good guy, he made sure they had firewood.  Besides, it was
> only some Jews that got hurt.
>
A long time poster (RIP Margaret Suran) fled Austria with her parents
and siblings just ahead of being rounded up and put into concentration
camps. Yeah, Hitler was a great guy. <snork> A syphilis ridden brain
addled dictator. He got the trains running on time... the death trains.

Jill

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, GM wrote:

>> Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure. ;) In
>> sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a fire in the fire
>> place of my apartment. I spoke with a german colleague the other day and
>> apparently that is illegal in germany, but many people who live in the
>> country side do it anyway.
>
>> Completely absurd!
>
>
> In the German countryside I've read instances of people reverting to using
> *wood* for their primary heating source, as the German state has gone "green"
> and fuel prices have risen astronomically...!!!

True. Went there for business last year and heard plenty of angry people
on the street.

> The model nation for centrist liberals is in political and economic turmoil.

All such model nations eventually fail. Swedens communist party for a
long time held that Venezuela was the model nation where socialism
actually worked. We now know (as always) the answer and the communist
party answer any questions about this with either embarassing silence or
that it wasn't done properly this time, but if it was done properly it
would work. ;)

> declared ‘book of the year’ by the Guardian, the New Statesman and The

Haha, when ever I see "The Guardian" I know that I can safely avoid the
crap that follows. ;)

> Even though 2024 is just a few weeks old, Germany has already been rocked by
> huge farmers’ protests, with thousands of tractors blocking cities and

Not just germany. France, poland, lithuania as well. Probably more
countries I haven't heard about as well.

> worst economic performance last year of any major economy. In the year ahead,
> it is predicted to have the slowest growth in the G20, apart from
> Argentina...

Argentina will jump back to growth if Milei will manage to stay in power
and to circumvent the deep state socialists in argentina who are against
him and his reforms.

> The results of the 'Energiewende' have been stark. Electricity prices rose by
> 50 per cent between 2006 and 2017, giving Germany the most expensive

And you know the fun part! When germany closed down their nuclear power,
they had to import from poland in the form of... coal! ;)

But from a "green perspective" that imported goal power was on the
environmental books of poland and not germany, so what's not to like? ;)

> It would have been possible for the political class to denounce the AfD’s
> more hardline elements while acknowledging the public’s anger and addressing
> some of their concerns. But instead of trying to win back the voters they
> have been shedding, the mainstream parties have tried to draw up a cordon
> sanitaire between themselves and the populist upstarts. Mainstream parties
> refuse to work with the AfD, even at the local level...

Ahh... they are behind sweden this time. The politicians tried that in
sweden with the nationalist party (no, they are not nazis, what ever you
might read in leftist press) and the result is that in 20 years or so
they grew from an insignificant nieche party to around 21% today. That
was the result of ignoring them for 20 years or so.

Now they are a supporter of the current government and immigration is
starting to reach record lows. Immigration has still damaged sweden
beyond repaid in my opinion, but at least somethings are moving in the
right direction.

Germany will, I'm sure, discover the same thing and AfD will become a
supporter of a rightist government eventually.

The thing swedes are speculating about right now is if the swedish
nationalist party (SD or the sweden democrats) will actually join the
government after the next election. This election the argument was that
they were too "immature" and inexperienced, but that argument won't work
a second time.

> Rather than being valorised as a model nation, perhaps Germany ought to be
> seen as a cautionary tale – of how a cosy elite consensus, untroubled by
> democracy, can take even a powerful, successful country to the brink..."

Amen!

In the US there is still hope. Let's pray that Trump will win in
november, then all will be good!

Best regards,
Daniel

On 2024-03-17 11:06 a.m., jmcquown wrote:
> On 3/17/2024 10:15 AM, Ed P wrote:

>> We had a woman at work that grew up in Austria before the war.  She
>> said Hitler was a good guy, he made sure they had firewood.  Besides,
>> it was only some Jews that got hurt.
>>
> A long time poster (RIP Margaret Suran) fled Austria with her parents
> and siblings just ahead of being rounded up and put into concentration
> camps.  Yeah, Hitler was a great guy. <snork>  A syphilis ridden brain
> addled dictator.  He got the trains running on time... the death trains.

Sadly, the Nazis had no problems finding willing accomplices in the
occupied territories. Antisemitism was not limited to Nazis and Germans.
A lot of the Jews in North America had the time had left to escape
oppression in other parts of Europe.

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 11:06:28 -0400, jmcquown <j_mcquown@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On 3/17/2024 10:15 AM, Ed P wrote:
>> On 3/17/2024 9:31 AM, GM wrote:
>>> In the German countryside I've read instances of people reverting to
>>> using *wood* for their primary heating source, as the German state has
>>> gone "green" and fuel prices have risen astronomically...!!!
>>>
>>
>> We had a woman at work that grew up in Austria before the war.  She said
>> Hitler was a good guy, he made sure they had firewood.  Besides, it was
>> only some Jews that got hurt.
>>
>A long time poster (RIP Margaret Suran) fled Austria with her parents
>and siblings just ahead of being rounded up and put into concentration
>camps. Yeah, Hitler was a great guy. <snork> A syphilis ridden brain
>addled dictator. He got the trains running on time... the death trains.

Another good post by Jill. Have you been drinking?

Dave Smith wrote:

> On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
> >
> > > D wrote :
> > >
> > > > Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I have
> > > > nothing against, but climate change has reached levels of mass
> > > > hysteria.
> > > >
> > > > What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying around in
> > > > private jets btw.) have lost all connection with the people in
> > > > europe, and are literally talking about crushing the livelihood
> > > > of farmers.
> > >
> > > The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York City will
> > > soon be cracking down on businesses that use wood fired or coal
> > > fired ovens.
> > >
> > >
https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
> >
> > Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure. ;) In
> > sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a fire in the fire
> > place of my apartment. I spoke with a german colleague the other
> > day and apparently that is illegal in germany, but many people who
> > live in the country side do it anyway.
> >
> > Completely absurd!
>
> Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon
> emissions, I am surprised that there are not a lot more restrictions
> on burning wood in fireplaces or heating homes with wood stoves.

Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in a bucket
compared to the wildfires. There are an estimated 500,000 homes with
functional wood fireplaces in use. They burn an average of a 30 foot
tree a year. We have triple that environmental effect in 1 small
California wildfire. The emmisions from a single car dwarf a single
wood burning fireplace.

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:

> Dave Smith wrote:
>
>> On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
>>>
>>>> D wrote :
>>>>
>>>>> Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I have
>>>>> nothing against, but climate change has reached levels of mass
>>>>> hysteria.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying around in
>>>>> private jets btw.) have lost all connection with the people in
>>>>> europe, and are literally talking about crushing the livelihood
>>>>> of farmers.
>>>>
>>>> The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York City will
>>>> soon be cracking down on businesses that use wood fired or coal
>>>> fired ovens.
>>>>
>>>>
> https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
>>>
>>> Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure. ;) In
>>> sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a fire in the fire
>>> place of my apartment. I spoke with a german colleague the other
>>> day and apparently that is illegal in germany, but many people who
>>> live in the country side do it anyway.
>>>
>>> Completely absurd!
>>
>> Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon
>> emissions, I am surprised that there are not a lot more restrictions
>> on burning wood in fireplaces or heating homes with wood stoves.
>
> Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in a bucket
> compared to the wildfires. There are an estimated 500,000 homes with
> functional wood fireplaces in use. They burn an average of a 30 foot
> tree a year. We have triple that environmental effect in 1 small
> California wildfire. The emmisions from a single car dwarf a single
> wood burning fireplace.
>

Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate change
hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the politicians to save
your soul! ;)

On 3/17/2024 6:18 PM, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:
>
>> Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> D wrote :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I have
>>>>>> nothing against, but climate change has reached levels of mass
>>>>>> hysteria.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying around in
>>>>>> private jets btw.) have lost all connection with the people in
>>>>>> europe, and are literally talking about crushing the livelihood
>>>>>> of farmers.
>>>>>
>>>>> The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York City will
>>>>> soon be cracking down on businesses that use wood fired or coal
>>>>> fired ovens.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
>>>>
>>>> Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure. ;) In
>>>> sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a fire in the fire
>>>> place of my apartment. I spoke with a german colleague the other
>>>> day and apparently that is illegal in germany, but many people who
>>>> live in the country side do it anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Completely absurd!
>>>
>>> Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon
>>> emissions, I am surprised that there are not a lot more restrictions
>>> on burning wood in fireplaces or heating homes with wood stoves.
>>
>> Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in a bucket
>> compared to the wildfires.  There are an estimated 500,000 homes with
>> functional wood fireplaces in use.  They burn an average of a 30 foot
>> tree a year.  We have triple that environmental effect in 1 small
>> California wildfire.  The emmisions from a single car dwarf a single
>> wood burning fireplace.
>>
>
> Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate change
> hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the politicians to save
> your soul! ;)

Pollution in some towns from wood burning is a health hazard. There are
alternatives. Do you think it is ok to have pollution? Lung and
breathing problems from it?

On 2024-03-17 7:54 p.m., Ed P wrote:
> On 3/17/2024 6:18 PM, D wrote:
>>

>> Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate change
>> hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the politicians to
>> save your soul! ;)
>
>
> Pollution in some towns from wood burning is a health hazard.  There are
> alternatives.  Do you think it is ok to have pollution?  Lung and
> breathing problems from it?

It certainly is a pollution issue around here. I am in a rural area and
some of my neighbours use wood stoves to heat. When it starts getting
cold and people start burning that wood in the evening you can certainly
smell it.

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, Ed P wrote:

> On 3/17/2024 6:18 PM, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> D wrote :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I have
>>>>>>> nothing against, but climate change has reached levels of mass
>>>>>>> hysteria.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying around in
>>>>>>> private jets btw.) have lost all connection with the people in
>>>>>>> europe, and are literally talking about crushing the livelihood
>>>>>>> of farmers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York City will
>>>>>> soon be cracking down on businesses that use wood fired or coal
>>>>>> fired ovens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
>>>>>
>>>>> Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure. ;) In
>>>>> sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a fire in the fire
>>>>> place of my apartment. I spoke with a german colleague the other
>>>>> day and apparently that is illegal in germany, but many people who
>>>>> live in the country side do it anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Completely absurd!
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon
>>>> emissions, I am surprised that there are not a lot more restrictions
>>>> on burning wood in fireplaces or heating homes with wood stoves.
>>>
>>> Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in a bucket
>>> compared to the wildfires.  There are an estimated 500,000 homes with
>>> functional wood fireplaces in use.  They burn an average of a 30 foot
>>> tree a year.  We have triple that environmental effect in 1 small
>>> California wildfire.  The emmisions from a single car dwarf a single
>>> wood burning fireplace.
>>>
>>
>> Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate change
>> hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the politicians to save
>> your soul! ;)
>
>
> Pollution in some towns from wood burning is a health hazard. There are
> alternatives. Do you think it is ok to have pollution? Lung and breathing
> problems from it?
>

Depends on the level of polution. Yes, I think it is ok to have cars. Yes,
I think it is ok to use your fireplace.

Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2024-03-17 7:54 p.m., Ed P wrote:
>> On 3/17/2024 6:18 PM, D wrote:
>>> Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate change
>>> hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the politicians to
>>> save your soul! ;)
>>
>>
>> Pollution in some towns from wood burning is a health hazard.  There are
>> alternatives.  Do you think it is ok to have pollution?  Lung and
>> breathing problems from it?
>
>
> It certainly is a pollution issue around here. I am in a rural area and
> some of my neighbours use wood stoves to heat. When it starts getting
> cold and people start burning that wood in the evening you can certainly
> smell it.

yes, and it sucks when you're sensitive to smoke, but i
can also say that coal was even worse. that stuff made
my eyes burn and sinuses run like a faucet. i moved away
from eastern TN largely due to their burning of coal (the
other part was getting closer to family).

songbird

D wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:
>
> > Dave Smith wrote:
> >
> > > On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > D wrote :
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I
> > > > > > have nothing against, but climate change has reached levels
> > > > > > of mass hysteria.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying around
> > > > > > in private jets btw.) have lost all connection with the
> > > > > > people in europe, and are literally talking about crushing
> > > > > > the livelihood of farmers.
> > > > >
> > > > > The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York City
> > > > > will soon be cracking down on businesses that use wood fired
> > > > > or coal fired ovens.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
> > > >
> > > > Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure. ;)
> > > > In sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a fire in
> > > > the fire place of my apartment. I spoke with a german colleague
> > > > the other day and apparently that is illegal in germany, but
> > > > many people who live in the country side do it anyway.
> > > >
> > > > Completely absurd!
> > >
> > > Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon
> > > emissions, I am surprised that there are not a lot more
> > > restrictions on burning wood in fireplaces or heating homes with
> > > wood stoves.
> >
> > Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in a
> > bucket compared to the wildfires. There are an estimated 500,000
> > homes with functional wood fireplaces in use. They burn an average
> > of a 30 foot tree a year. We have triple that environmental effect
> > in 1 small California wildfire. The emmisions from a single car
> > dwarf a single wood burning fireplace.
> >
>
> Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate change
> hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the politicians to
> save your soul! ;)

Grin but some people believe it which is sad.

Ed P wrote:

> On 3/17/2024 6:18 PM, D wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:
> >
> > > Dave Smith wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > D wrote :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I
> > > > > > > have nothing against, but climate change has reached
> > > > > > > levels of mass hysteria.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying
> > > > > > > around in private jets btw.) have lost all connection
> > > > > > > with the people in europe, and are literally talking
> > > > > > > about crushing the livelihood of farmers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York
> > > > > > City will soon be cracking down on businesses that use wood
> > > > > > fired or coal fired ovens.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
> > > > >
> > > > > Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure.
> > > > > ;) In sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a
> > > > > fire in the fire place of my apartment. I spoke with a german
> > > > > colleague the other day and apparently that is illegal in
> > > > > germany, but many people who live in the country side do it
> > > > > anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > Completely absurd!
> > > >
> > > > Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon
> > > > emissions, I am surprised that there are not a lot more
> > > > restrictions on burning wood in fireplaces or heating homes
> > > > with wood stoves.
> > >
> > > Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in a
> > > bucket compared to the wildfires.  There are an estimated 500,000
> > > homes with functional wood fireplaces in use.  They burn an
> > > average of a 30 foot tree a year.  We have triple that
> > > environmental effect in 1 small California wildfire.  The
> > > emmisions from a single car dwarf a single wood burning fireplace.
> > >
> >
> > Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate
> > change hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the
> > politicians to save your soul! ;)
>
>
> Pollution in some towns from wood burning is a health hazard. There
> are alternatives. Do you think it is ok to have pollution? Lung and
> breathing problems from it?

Compare it to a car. A single car produces FAR more pollution than any
fireplace will. Lets ignore the 18 wheelers all over the place.

Yes, it's worth it in comparison.

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 18:57:28 +0000, "cshenk"
<cshenk@virginia-beach.net> wrote:

>D wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:
>>
>> > Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in a
>> > bucket compared to the wildfires. There are an estimated 500,000
>> > homes with functional wood fireplaces in use. They burn an average
>> > of a 30 foot tree a year. We have triple that environmental effect
>> > in 1 small California wildfire. The emmisions from a single car
>> > dwarf a single wood burning fireplace.
>> >
>>
>> Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate change
>> hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the politicians to
>> save your soul! ;)
>
>Grin but some people believe it which is sad.

The world according to cshenk.

D wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, Ed P wrote:
>
> > On 3/17/2024 6:18 PM, D wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dave Smith wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > D wrote :
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment
> > > > > > > > I have nothing against, but climate change has reached
> > > > > > > > levels of mass hysteria.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying
> > > > > > > > around in private jets btw.) have lost all connection
> > > > > > > > with the people in europe, and are literally talking
> > > > > > > > about crushing the livelihood of farmers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York
> > > > > > > City will soon be cracking down on businesses that use
> > > > > > > wood fired or coal fired ovens.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure.
> > > > > > ;) In sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a
> > > > > > fire in the fire place of my apartment. I spoke with a
> > > > > > german colleague the other day and apparently that is
> > > > > > illegal in germany, but many people who live in the country
> > > > > > side do it anyway.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Completely absurd!
> > > > >
> > > > > Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon
> > > > > emissions, I am surprised that there are not a lot more
> > > > > restrictions on burning wood in fireplaces or heating homes
> > > > > with wood stoves.
> > > >
> > > > Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in
> > > > a bucket compared to the wildfires.  There are an estimated
> > > > 500,000 homes with functional wood fireplaces in use.  They
> > > > burn an average of a 30 foot tree a year.  We have triple that
> > > > environmental effect in 1 small California wildfire.  The
> > > > emmisions from a single car dwarf a single wood burning
> > > > fireplace.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate
> > > change hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the
> > > politicians to save your soul! ;)
> >
> >
> > Pollution in some towns from wood burning is a health hazard.
> > There are alternatives. Do you think it is ok to have pollution?
> > Lung and breathing problems from it?
> >
>
> Depends on the level of polution. Yes, I think it is ok to have cars.
> Yes, I think it is ok to use your fireplace.

We don't even cut down trees for wood here. Enough comes down in
storms or becomes diseased and has to be cut down to protect houses,
electric and cable lines or roadways. Enterprising folks cut it to
smaller pieces and split it then sell the results. This is more
environmentally friendly than throwing it in landfill. Some gets
mulched and sold as natural mulch for yard or landscaping purposes.
Also sawdust for the 6 horse farms plus animal bedding uses.

On 2024-03-18 3:07 p.m., cshenk wrote:
> Ed P wrote:
>
>> On 3/17/2024 6:18 PM, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> D wrote :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I
>>>>>>>> have nothing against, but climate change has reached
>>>>>>>> levels of mass hysteria.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying
>>>>>>>> around in private jets btw.) have lost all connection
>>>>>>>> with the people in europe, and are literally talking
>>>>>>>> about crushing the livelihood of farmers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York
>>>>>>> City will soon be cracking down on businesses that use wood
>>>>>>> fired or coal fired ovens.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
> https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure.
>>>>>> ;) In sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a
>>>>>> fire in the fire place of my apartment. I spoke with a german
>>>>>> colleague the other day and apparently that is illegal in
>>>>>> germany, but many people who live in the country side do it
>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Completely absurd!
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon
>>>>> emissions, I am surprised that there are not a lot more
>>>>> restrictions on burning wood in fireplaces or heating homes
>>>>> with wood stoves.
>>>>
>>>> Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in a
>>>> bucket compared to the wildfires.  There are an estimated 500,000
>>>> homes with functional wood fireplaces in use.  They burn an
>>>> average of a 30 foot tree a year.  We have triple that
>>>> environmental effect in 1 small California wildfire.  The
>>>> emmisions from a single car dwarf a single wood burning fireplace.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate
>>> change hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the
>>> politicians to save your soul! ;)
>>
>>
>> Pollution in some towns from wood burning is a health hazard. There
>> are alternatives. Do you think it is ok to have pollution? Lung and
>> breathing problems from it?
>
> Compare it to a car. A single car produces FAR more pollution than any
> fireplace will. Lets ignore the 18 wheelers all over the place.
>
> Yes, it's worth it in comparison.

There is one snag there. It is not even close to true. A German article
reported that fireplaces caused more emissions than all the cars
combined. Car emissions there totalled 6,800 tonnes of emissions while
fire places cause 18,600 tonnes.

https://www.green-zones.eu/en/blog-news/heating-with-wood-more-harmful-than-car-exhaust-fumes
"
“Ecodesign” wood burning stoves produce 450 times more toxic air
pollution than gas central heating, according to new data published in a
report from Prof Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer for England.

Older stoves, now banned from sale, produce 3,700 times more, while
electric heating produces none, the report said."

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/08/eco-wood-burners-produce-450-times-more-pollution-than-gas-heating-report

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 17:31:34 -0400, Dave Smith
<adavid.smith@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>On 2024-03-18 3:07 p.m., cshenk wrote:
>
>> Compare it to a car. A single car produces FAR more pollution than any
>> fireplace will. Lets ignore the 18 wheelers all over the place.
>>
>> Yes, it's worth it in comparison.
>
>There is one snag there. It is not even close to true. A German article
>reported that fireplaces caused more emissions than all the cars
>combined. Car emissions there totalled 6,800 tonnes of emissions while
>fire places cause 18,600 tonnes.
>
>https://www.green-zones.eu/en/blog-news/heating-with-wood-more-harmful-than-car-exhaust-fumes
>"
>“Ecodesign” wood burning stoves produce 450 times more toxic air
>pollution than gas central heating, according to new data published in a
>report from Prof Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer for England.
>
>Older stoves, now banned from sale, produce 3,700 times more, while
>electric heating produces none, the report said."
>
>https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/08/eco-wood-burners-produce-450-times-more-pollution-than-gas-heating-report

This presents a problem. If you're right and cshenk's wrong, she'll
have to killfile you. Sorry.

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:

> D wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> D wrote :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I
>>>>>>> have nothing against, but climate change has reached levels
>>>>>>> of mass hysteria.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying around
>>>>>>> in private jets btw.) have lost all connection with the
>>>>>>> people in europe, and are literally talking about crushing
>>>>>>> the livelihood of farmers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York City
>>>>>> will soon be cracking down on businesses that use wood fired
>>>>>> or coal fired ovens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
> https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
>>>>>
>>>>> Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure. ;)
>>>>> In sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a fire in
>>>>> the fire place of my apartment. I spoke with a german colleague
>>>>> the other day and apparently that is illegal in germany, but
>>>>> many people who live in the country side do it anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Completely absurd!
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon
>>>> emissions, I am surprised that there are not a lot more
>>>> restrictions on burning wood in fireplaces or heating homes with
>>>> wood stoves.
>>>
>>> Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in a
>>> bucket compared to the wildfires. There are an estimated 500,000
>>> homes with functional wood fireplaces in use. They burn an average
>>> of a 30 foot tree a year. We have triple that environmental effect
>>> in 1 small California wildfire. The emmisions from a single car
>>> dwarf a single wood burning fireplace.
>>>
>>
>> Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate change
>> hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the politicians to
>> save your soul! ;)
>
> Grin but some people believe it which is sad.
>

True. That is very sad. =( I feel even more sad when I see in the news
that young children are sent to therapy for climate fear. It's terrifying
that the media should be allowed to hurt young children that way.

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:

> D wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, Ed P wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/17/2024 6:18 PM, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> D wrote :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment
>>>>>>>>> I have nothing against, but climate change has reached
>>>>>>>>> levels of mass hysteria.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying
>>>>>>>>> around in private jets btw.) have lost all connection
>>>>>>>>> with the people in europe, and are literally talking
>>>>>>>>> about crushing the livelihood of farmers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York
>>>>>>>> City will soon be cracking down on businesses that use
>>>>>>>> wood fired or coal fired ovens.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
> https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure.
>>>>>>> ;) In sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a
>>>>>>> fire in the fire place of my apartment. I spoke with a
>>>>>>> german colleague the other day and apparently that is
>>>>>>> illegal in germany, but many people who live in the country
>>>>>>> side do it anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Completely absurd!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon
>>>>>> emissions, I am surprised that there are not a lot more
>>>>>> restrictions on burning wood in fireplaces or heating homes
>>>>>> with wood stoves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in
>>>>> a bucket compared to the wildfires.  There are an estimated
>>>>> 500,000 homes with functional wood fireplaces in use.  They
>>>>> burn an average of a 30 foot tree a year.  We have triple that
>>>>> environmental effect in 1 small California wildfire.  The
>>>>> emmisions from a single car dwarf a single wood burning
>>>>> fireplace.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate
>>>> change hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the
>>>> politicians to save your soul! ;)
>>>
>>>
>>> Pollution in some towns from wood burning is a health hazard.
>>> There are alternatives. Do you think it is ok to have pollution?
>>> Lung and breathing problems from it?
>>>
>>
>> Depends on the level of polution. Yes, I think it is ok to have cars.
>> Yes, I think it is ok to use your fireplace.
>
> We don't even cut down trees for wood here. Enough comes down in
> storms or becomes diseased and has to be cut down to protect houses,
> electric and cable lines or roadways. Enterprising folks cut it to
> smaller pieces and split it then sell the results. This is more
> environmentally friendly than throwing it in landfill. Some gets
> mulched and sold as natural mulch for yard or landscaping purposes.
> Also sawdust for the 6 horse farms plus animal bedding uses.
>

And let's remember that forest fires is a natural phenomenon that is
actually _good_ for the forest. So no need to be afraid of a warm, nice
and beautiful fire in the fireplace during winter. =)

Where I have my country house there so many trees around that you can
always go to the next neighbour or farmer and they'll almost thank you for
taking it back home.

Only negative is that it's mostly pine, which is of course not optimal for
the fireplace if you use it in high quantities.

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 23:20:01 +0100, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

>
>
>On Mon, 18 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:
>
>> D wrote:
>>
>>> Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate change
>>> hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the politicians to
>>> save your soul! ;)
>>
>> Grin but some people believe it which is sad.
>>
>
>True. That is very sad. =( I feel even more sad when I see in the news
>that young children are sent to therapy for climate fear. It's terrifying
>that the media should be allowed to hurt young children that way.

lol

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024, Dave Smith wrote:

> On 2024-03-18 3:07 p.m., cshenk wrote:
>> Ed P wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/17/2024 6:18 PM, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, cshenk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-03-17 6:41 a.m., D wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, heyjoe wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> D wrote :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hah, far from it! Reasonable care about the environment I
>>>>>>>>> have nothing against, but climate change has reached
>>>>>>>>> levels of mass hysteria.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What is sad is that the politicians (who are flying
>>>>>>>>> around in private jets btw.) have lost all connection
>>>>>>>>> with the people in europe, and are literally talking
>>>>>>>>> about crushing the livelihood of farmers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The climate hysteria isn't limited to Europe.  New York
>>>>>>>> City will soon be cracking down on businesses that use wood
>>>>>>>> fired or coal fired ovens.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>> https://www.nysun.com/article/uproar-as-new-york-approves-rule-cracking-down-on-wood-fired-pizzerias-forcing-them-to-spend-big-to-reduce-emissions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sad... I won't be moving to New York City, that's for sure.
>>>>>>> ;) In sweden, when visiting, at least I can still light a
>>>>>>> fire in the fire place of my apartment. I spoke with a german
>>>>>>> colleague the other day and apparently that is illegal in
>>>>>>> germany, but many people who live in the country side do it
>>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Completely absurd!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frankly, with all the concern about climate change and carbon
>>>>>> emissions, I am surprised that there are not a lot more
>>>>>> restrictions on burning wood in fireplaces or heating homes
>>>>>> with wood stoves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fact is the wood burning fireplace fears aren't even a drop in a
>>>>> bucket compared to the wildfires.  There are an estimated 500,000
>>>>> homes with functional wood fireplaces in use.  They burn an
>>>>> average of a 30 foot tree a year.  We have triple that
>>>>> environmental effect in 1 small California wildfire.  The
>>>>> emmisions from a single car dwarf a single wood burning fireplace.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tut, tut, don't come with arguments! Remember that for climate
>>>> change hysterics it's all about sacrifice in order for the
>>>> politicians to save your soul! ;)
>>>
>>>
>>> Pollution in some towns from wood burning is a health hazard. There
>>> are alternatives. Do you think it is ok to have pollution? Lung and
>>> breathing problems from it?
>>
>> Compare it to a car. A single car produces FAR more pollution than any
>> fireplace will. Lets ignore the 18 wheelers all over the place.
>>
>> Yes, it's worth it in comparison.
>
>
> There is one snag there. It is not even close to true. A German article
> reported that fireplaces caused more emissions than all the cars combined.
> Car emissions there totalled 6,800 tonnes of emissions while fire places
> cause 18,600 tonnes.
>
> https://www.green-zones.eu/en/blog-news/heating-with-wood-more-harmful-than-car-exhaust-fumes
> "
> “Ecodesign” wood burning stoves produce 450 times more toxic air pollution
> than gas central heating, according to new data published in a report from
> Prof Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer for England.
>
> Older stoves, now banned from sale, produce 3,700 times more, while electric
> heating produces none, the report said."
>
>
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/08/eco-wood-burners-produce-450-times-more-pollution-than-gas-heating-report
>

We're talking fire places here, not wood burners heating 24/7. In
countries where fire places are used for heating 24/7 usually eco burners
are too expensive and the people would prefer living to being dead.

Also theguardian is a socialist newspaper so they will only harp on the
green agenda and won't let facts come in the way.

Finally, you can, if you like, there's plenty of modern wood burning
systems that are perfectly environmentally friendly. Especially with added
ackumulatortanks (or what ever the english word for it is).