Justin Frank, author of "Trump on the Couch: Inside the Mind of the
President," on this week's historic indictments
APRIL 7, 2023 5:54AM (EDT)

As a person ages, they become more their true self; Donald Trump has been
engaging in criminal and other antisocial behavior for decades. In many
ways, Trump is one of the most successful criminals in American history.
Crime helped Trump to become a billionaire. Crime helped Trump to takeover
the White House in 2016. Crime helped Trump to almost succeed in his Jan..
6 coup attempt and the ongoing and escalating attempts by this
Republican-fascist party and MAGA and "conservative" movement to end
America's multiracial democracy.

https://www.salon.com/2023/04/07/he-is-visualizing-burning-things-and-blowing-them-up-how-may-be-coping-with-being-caught/

With his indictment in New York this week, and the other more serious
cases looming over him in connection to election fraud and interference,
as well as stealing top secret and highly classified federal documents,
this is the first time in Trump's life that he is facing real and
substantial – and potentially life-altering – consequences for his
pathological and corrupt behavior.

Dr. Justin Frank is a former clinical professor of psychiatry at the
George Washington University Medical Center and the author of "Trump on
the Couch: Inside the Mind of the President." In this wide-ranging
conversation, he explains how Trump is likely responding on an emotional
and psychological level to being arrested on Monday and facing the
prospect of true accountability for his decades-long crime spree. Dr.
Frank also explores how someone with Trump's antisocial personality (and
resulting attraction to violence and death) behaves when they are
confronted by the law and other powerful forces who are (finally) trying
to stop them.

This interview has been lightly edited for clarity.

When I looked at Donald Trump being arraigned in New York, in particular,
that one moment when he glared at the news reporters and cameras, I saw
his true self. That was the real Trump: he looked violent, enraged, and
like a killer from a horror movie. As you know I use the correct moral
language when discussing fascism and the likes of Trump and his movement..
Trump was revealing, even more, his true evil self. As a therapist and a
human being what did you see?

I agree with you. That moment did in fact reveal the true Donald Trump.

But here is the complexity: There is really more than one real, or true,
Donald Trump; people are multilayered. At his core, what we see in that
moment with Trump in Manhattan was that he knows he is a criminal who has
finally been caught and may be held responsible for his wrongdoing. To be
even blunter, Trump looked like a predatory animal that had been caged.
"Evil" is not a psychoanalytic term, but that was his affect in the
moment. What I also saw that was very striking in that moment was that
Trump looked like he was full of self-pity, he was defeated and alone; he
seemed to realize that nobody feels sorry for him. As we've seen time and
again — with Michael Cohen, for example — Trump does not merit or inspire
sympathy in those he treats badly.

Trump in his defeat is also an example and reminder of Sigmund Freud's
theories about the life instinct and the death instinct. The death
instinct is about how people take pleasure in destruction, to destroy and
hurt others. Trump is possessed by his death instinct.

What does someone like Donald Trump do when they're finally reined in? In
Trump's case, he is being held criminally responsible and perhaps even
faces removal from society. Trump is a predator. How do such people react
when they are caged, either literally or metaphorically?

Predators can massively regress in such circumstances and lose even a
modicum of self-control. They lash out and need to be restrained for their
safety and that of their caregivers. That's why we have secure padded
cells (euphemized as "quiet rooms") inside locked wards in mental
hospitals. When a predator is cornered, he generally exhibits paranoia,
because one of the things that a predator tries to resist is his paranoid
anxiety. When a predator is hunting or otherwise looking for a target he
becomes hypervigilant for danger. When Trump is cornered, as he is now
with this felony case, he will become increasingly paranoid or defeated. I
don't know exactly what will happen with the likes of Trump because such
human predators are usually denied bail or committed to a hospital for
supervision — and medication.

How would you assess Donald Trump's emotional maturity level?

First, Trump never grew up. He is a child, emotionally. Trump's emotional
maturity level is perhaps that of a teenager, a 13-year-old who has just
hit puberty and wants to fight people and destroy things. In fact, Trump's
emotional maturity may actually be closer to a ten-year-old. The deep
problem with Trump is that he is a bully. Trump is also a coward. The
combination of those traits is very dangerous. Trump is also a "pervert,"
meaning in the original sense of the word, that he has turned away from
truth. Moreover, Trump is actually the ultimate pervert in that sense: he
hates the truth, i.e. the media is lying about him, "fake news," the Big
Lie about the election, etc.

One of the truths that Trump turns away from is that other people are
human beings who should be respected because they have feelings and
inherent dignity and worth. But for Trump, people are either useful to him
or seen as threats or prey.

How does Donald Trump manage his anxiety and stress? What sort of
self-soothing or coping behaviors does he engage in to compensate?

Again, Trump is dominated by the death instinct which includes pleasure in
being destructive. A person who has that temperament is going to manage
his anxieties and fears and other stress by escalating fantasies of
destructiveness. In Trump's mind, he is visualizing burning things and
blowing them up. He is fantasizing about hurting other people. Those
fantasies of harm and destruction bring him great pleasure. A person like
Trump may be fantasizing about committing acts of mass murder.

If Trump were a mafia boss, he would get his consiglieres to act on his
behalf. For Trump to truly be calm and at peace he would need to rule the
world, to dominate everyone and everything around him. Trump lives to make
other people scared. He will also not let himself feel dependent on, or
need, other human beings.

When I saw Trump on Monday at the courthouse, he looked like a very lonely
and pitiable man. Is he even capable of understanding how loathed,
unloved, and despised he is by the American people? He wasn't even able to
summon up a decent size crowd of MAGAites to rally for him outside the
courthouse.

Even Trump's wife, let alone the rest of his family, didn't accompany him
to his arraignment. Trump imagines that he is loved and supported by the
American people. He's a person who is dominated by a need to spoil or
attack what's good in other people -- and he does it all without an ounce
of guilt. Trump views relationships and the world in a transactional way..
Everything is about winning and losing. That is the way of the world for
someone like Trump. Trump really does not have any real, honest
friendships. You either sycophantically support and agree with him or
you're written off.

Most people have violent fantasies. How does someone like Trump manage his
violent fantasies versus actually following through on such thoughts and
impulses?

People underestimate Trump's predatory nature. He is more dangerous now
that he is under threat. Trump needs to be locked up because he has real
problems with controlling his violent fantasies and impulses. Trump lacks
internal self-regulation.

How does Trump process being in a situation where his lying and other
pathological behavior will likely be of little use in saving him? Such
behavior will almost certainly backfire in court.

He knows that in court, he must keep his mouth shut. And he's surrounded
by lawyers who tell him to shut up. Trump can't control himself; he has to
be controlled externally. He needs to be in a secure facility.

I think Trump actually has to numb himself in court. I do not believe it
is possible for Trump to actually process everything that is happening to
him right now. Trump would not be able to function in court if he did not
somehow turn off his hate and rage. Trump is a predator but he is also a
type of paper tiger. He is grandiose, all puffed up. That is not separate
from his viciousness, it actually colors it. When you're grandiose and a
predator, you feel you can do anything. But part of that belief is based
on an unrealistic idea of yourself. Trump's magical thinking reflects
those beliefs and impulses. "I alone can fix it." Those are statements
made by a pathologically grandiose person. When you're a killer, your life
fantasies are not built on facts and reality. Donald Trump's main weapons
are his wealth, his bullying and his menacing quality. His intelligence
also remains a weapon.