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interests / rec.games.chess.misc / Re: Frog King Chess

SubjectAuthor
* Frog King ChessMats Winther
`* Re: Frog King ChessEli Kesef
 +* Re: Frog King ChessMats Winther
 |`- Re: Frog King ChessEli Kesef
 `* Re: Frog King ChessQuadibloc
  +* Re: Frog King ChessEli Kesef
  |`- Re: Frog King ChessMats Winther
  `* Re: Frog King ChessWilliam Hyde
   `* Re: Frog King ChessQuadibloc
    `* Re: Frog King ChessWilliam Hyde
     `* Re: Frog King ChessMats Winther
      `* Re: Frog King ChessQuadibloc
       +- Re: Frog King ChessWilliam Hyde
       `* Re: Frog King ChessMats Winther
        `- Re: Frog King ChessQuadibloc

1
Frog King Chess

<6dec6c64-f3b8-4414-a231-3dac00a314den@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Frog King Chess
From: malwi...@gmail.com (Mats Winther)
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 by: Mats Winther - Sun, 7 Nov 2021 06:12 UTC

This is a modest variant that eliminates a lot of endgame draws. The king can jump orthogonally over a friendly piece to capture an enemy piece on the other side. Thus, K + P versus K is won.

http://mlwi.magix.net/bg/frogkingchess.htm (with Zillions program).

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: nastyhor...@gmail.com (Eli Kesef)
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 by: Eli Kesef - Tue, 9 Nov 2021 12:47 UTC

On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 8:12:52 AM UTC+2, malw...@gmail.com wrote:
> This is a modest variant that eliminates a lot of endgame draws. The king can jump orthogonally over a friendly piece to capture an enemy piece on the other side. Thus, K + P versus K is won.
>
> http://mlwi.magix.net/bg/frogkingchess.htm (with Zillions program).

Bs"d

Something like that existed already, it's called "checkers".

Too many draws is only something to worry about for the world top, us mere mortals don't have to worry about that.

https://tinyurl.com/tramp-checkers

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: malwi...@gmail.com (Mats Winther)
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 by: Mats Winther - Tue, 9 Nov 2021 12:54 UTC

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:47:22 PM UTC+1, Eli Kesef wrote:
> On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 8:12:52 AM UTC+2, M Winther wrote:
> > This is a modest variant that eliminates a lot of endgame draws. The king can jump orthogonally over a friendly piece to capture an enemy piece on the other side. Thus, K + P versus K is won.
> >
> > http://mlwi.magix.net/bg/frogkingchess.htm (with Zillions program).
> Bs"d
>
> Something like that existed already, it's called "checkers".
>
> Too many draws is only something to worry about for the world top, us mere mortals don't have to worry about that.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/tramp-checkers

Remember this? WCH 2018:

Game 1: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½

Game 2: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½

Game 3: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½

Game 4: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½

Game 5: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½

Game 6: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½

Game 7: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½

Game 8: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½

Game 9: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½

Game 10: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½

Game 11: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½

Game 12: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: nastyhor...@gmail.com (Eli Kesef)
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 by: Eli Kesef - Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:10 UTC

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:54:53 PM UTC+2, malw...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:47:22 PM UTC+1, Eli Kesef wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 7, 2021 at 8:12:52 AM UTC+2, M Winther wrote:
> > > This is a modest variant that eliminates a lot of endgame draws. The king can jump orthogonally over a friendly piece to capture an enemy piece on the other side. Thus, K + P versus K is won.
> > >
> > > http://mlwi.magix.net/bg/frogkingchess.htm (with Zillions program).
> > Bs"d
> >
> > Something like that existed already, it's called "checkers".
> >
> > Too many draws is only something to worry about for the world top, us mere mortals don't have to worry about that.
> >
> > https://tinyurl.com/tramp-checkers
> Remember this? WCH 2018:
>
> Game 1: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½
>
> Game 2: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½
>
> Game 3: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½
>
> Game 4: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½
>
> Game 5: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½
>
> Game 6: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½
>
> Game 7: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½
>
> Game 8: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½
>
> Game 9: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½
>
> Game 10: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½
>
> Game 11: Carlsen–Caruana, ½–½
>
> Game 12: Caruana–Carlsen, ½–½

Bs"d

Like I said; it's only the world top that has to worry about things like that.

https://tinyurl.com/hard-to-win

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:36 UTC

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 5:47:22 AM UTC-7, Eli Kesef wrote:

> Too many draws is only something to worry about for the world top, us mere mortals don't have to worry about that.

That's true enough in a direct sense.

However, the fact of "too many draws" at the stratospheric heights of Chess _affects_ people who, although not
grandmasters, do engage in serious rated play. Basically, evern since Steinitz came along, Chess stopped being
particularly exciting as a spectator sport.
This reduced the amount of support available for the game in free-market economies.

However, while I found this variant interesting, I don't think it's a good solution to the problem. Making that
particular endgame a win instead of a draw is, I think, going to be quite properly looked upon as damaging,
not beneficial, to Chess as a game. Players should still have a reason to take care to avoid a stalemate
when a checkmate is possible.

John Savard

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: nastyhor...@gmail.com (Eli Kesef)
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 by: Eli Kesef - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:08 UTC

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 5:36:57 AM UTC+2, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 5:47:22 AM UTC-7, Eli Kesef wrote:
>
> > Too many draws is only something to worry about for the world top, us mere mortals don't have to worry about that.
> That's true enough in a direct sense.

Bs"d

I think we should stop after this statement.

> However, the fact of "too many draws" at the stratospheric heights of Chess _affects_ people who, although not
> grandmasters, do engage in serious rated play. Basically, evern since Steinitz came along, Chess stopped being
> particularly exciting as a spectator sport.
> This reduced the amount of support available for the game in free-market economies.
>
> However, while I found this variant interesting, I don't think it's a good solution to the problem. Making that
> particular endgame a win instead of a draw is, I think, going to be quite properly looked upon as damaging,
> not beneficial, to Chess as a game. Players should still have a reason to take care to avoid a stalemate
> when a checkmate is possible.

In the Karpov-Kasparov match they managed to play 17 draws in a row. No problem.

They should just institute that in case of all draws the world champ keeps his title, and problem solved. The challenger will fight harder or go home as a loser.

But the present solution with the rapid games, followed by the armageddon is also a good solution.

Point is, chess isn't, and never was, a spectator sport. That's just a fact of life. I play chess because I like to play chess, not to entertain the spectators.

And since during one world championship match not too long ago, don't remember right away who against who, there were 1.2 billion people who watched the games online, I don't think we have a spectator problem.

https://tinyurl.com/checkmate-ends

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: malwi...@gmail.com (Mats Winther)
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 by: Mats Winther - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:41 UTC

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 8:08:59 AM UTC+1, Eli Kesef wrote:
>
> They should just institute that in case of all draws the world champ keeps his title, and problem solved. The challenger will fight harder or go home as a loser.
>
> But the present solution with the rapid games, followed by the armageddon is also a good solution.
>
> Point is, chess isn't, and never was, a spectator sport. That's just a fact of life. I play chess because I like to play chess, not to entertain the spectators.
>
> And since during one world championship match not too long ago, don't remember right away who against who, there were 1.2 billion people who watched the games online, I don't think we have a spectator problem.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/checkmate-ends

In fact, chess is a hugely popular spectator sport. To determine the WCH with rapid games is an abomination.

I have modified the rules in the main variant, so that the king jump can only occur over a pawn. Frog King Chess ought to make practical endgames more critical, since the king can now control the square before the pawn. The rule is very simple, and we are already used to kings that jump two steps. With such a rule, there will be no more 12 draws in a row, in a WCH.

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
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 by: William Hyde - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:44 UTC

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:36:57 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 5:47:22 AM UTC-7, Eli Kesef wrote:
>
> > Too many draws is only something to worry about for the world top, us mere mortals don't have to worry about that.
> That's true enough in a direct sense.
>
> However, the fact of "too many draws" at the stratospheric heights of Chess _affects_ people who, although not
> grandmasters, do engage in serious rated play. Basically, evern since Steinitz came along, Chess stopped being
> particularly exciting as a spectator sport.

You were wrong when you said this on r.a.s.f.w, and you are still wrong.

Wrongness is invariant with respect to newsgroup transformations.

> This reduced the amount of support available for the game in free-market economies.

Perhaps you have some idea that pre-Steinitz chess benefited from generous free market support.

It did not.

Until the advent of the FIDE system, twentieth century world championships paid far more, in actual purchasing power than Steinitz' predecessors ever got. Post-Fischer, they again do. More than poor (literally poor) Steinitz could have dreamed, though he got more than had earlier players.

Tournament prizes and appearance fees rose, so that more people were able to support themselves as chessplayers.

Remember that of the pre-Steinitz greats, Morphy had family money, Anderssen was a teacher, Kolisch a banker, Von Der Lasa and St Amant diplomats, and so on. Blackburne supported himself through six months of touring in England, Staunton through writing, Wyvill had money, and Williams was a pharmacist.

Contrast the twentieth century, where not only world champions, but contenders such as Nimzowitsch, Marshall, Tartakover, Rubenstein and many others could support themselves entirely (if not richly) through chess.

>
> However, while I found this variant interesting, I don't think it's a good solution to the problem. Making that
> particular endgame a win instead of a draw is, I think, going to be quite properly looked upon as damaging,
> not beneficial, to Chess as a game. Players should still have a reason to take care to avoid a stalemate
> when a checkmate is possible.

Agreed entirely.

William Hyde

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:41 UTC

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 3:44:26 PM UTC-7, William Hyde wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:36:57 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:

> > However, while I found this variant interesting, I don't think it's a good solution to the problem. Making that
> > particular endgame a win instead of a draw is, I think, going to be quite properly looked upon as damaging,
> > not beneficial, to Chess as a game. Players should still have a reason to take care to avoid a stalemate
> > when a checkmate is possible.

> Agreed entirely.

Upon reflection, though, I think my comments were too harsh.

On the one hand, the defending player should be rewarded for preventing a checkmate.

But on the other hand, the attacking player ought to get partial credit for being a pawn
up due to the preceding play. Giving partial credit for stalemate, i.e., a 3/5-2/5 point
split, seems to me an appropriate way to do this, as it addresses both sides of the
question.

John Savard

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
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 by: William Hyde - Thu, 18 Nov 2021 21:51 UTC

On Sunday, November 14, 2021 at 11:41:49 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 3:44:26 PM UTC-7, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 10:36:57 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>
> > > However, while I found this variant interesting, I don't think it's a good solution to the problem. Making that
> > > particular endgame a win instead of a draw is, I think, going to be quite properly looked upon as damaging,
> > > not beneficial, to Chess as a game. Players should still have a reason to take care to avoid a stalemate
> > > when a checkmate is possible.
>
> > Agreed entirely.
> Upon reflection, though, I think my comments were too harsh.

Well of course. You were right, and that's the one thing you can't stand.

Or so it appears.

>
> On the one hand, the defending player should be rewarded for preventing a checkmate.
>
> But on the other hand, the attacking player ought to get partial credit for being a pawn
> up due to the preceding play.

This would make for a more boring game. Take the Marshall gambit in the Lopez. Sometimes this results in a pawn-down but drawn endgame for the person who sacrificed a pawn. If this resource were not available, the Marshall would be a significantly worse opening, and probably never played.

Making pawn sacrifices more risky would make for a more boring game.

William Hyde

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: malwi...@gmail.com (Mats Winther)
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 by: Mats Winther - Fri, 19 Nov 2021 20:45 UTC

On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 10:51:57 PM UTC+1, William Hyde wrote:

> This would make for a more boring game. Take the Marshall gambit in the Lopez. Sometimes this results in a pawn-down but drawn endgame for the person who sacrificed a pawn. If this resource were not available, the Marshall would be a significantly worse opening, and probably never played.
>
> Making pawn sacrifices more risky would make for a more boring game.
>
> William Hyde

Firstly, the Marshall pawn sac occurs early in the game, long before the endgame. It creates dynamic possibilities, and the game is likely decided long before the pawn endgame. Black's objective is not to achieve an endgame with a pawn less, and then hold that to a draw.

Secondly, the Marshall gambit is so good that it has effectively killed the Spanish opening. That's why they play d3-variants, today. It would be good if the Marshall were weakened.

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 02:19 UTC

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 1:45:38 PM UTC-7, malw...@gmail.com wrote:

> Secondly, the Marshall gambit is so good that it has effectively killed the
> Spanish opening. That's why they play d3-variants, today. It would be good
> if the Marshall were weakened.

Whether or not there is any truth to that, it is highly unclear to me how one
could modify Chess so as to alter the relative merits of different openings
without changing it beyond recognition - with, therefore, unpredictable
consequences instead of good ones.

John Savard

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: wthyde1...@gmail.com (William Hyde)
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 by: William Hyde - Sun, 21 Nov 2021 23:40 UTC

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 9:19:06 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 1:45:38 PM UTC-7, malw...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Secondly, the Marshall gambit is so good that it has effectively killed the
> > Spanish opening. That's why they play d3-variants, today. It would be good
> > if the Marshall were weakened.
> Whether or not there is any truth to that, it is highly unclear to me how one
> could modify Chess so as to alter the relative merits of different openings
> without changing it beyond recognition - with, therefore, unpredictable
> consequences instead of good ones.

Agreed. But then it's my view on the whole topic.

William Hyde

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: malwi...@gmail.com (Mats Winther)
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 by: Mats Winther - Mon, 22 Nov 2021 06:25 UTC

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 3:19:06 AM UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 1:45:38 PM UTC-7, malw... wrote:
>
> > Secondly, the Marshall gambit is so good that it has effectively killed the
> > Spanish opening. That's why they play d3-variants, today. It would be good
> > if the Marshall were weakened.
> Whether or not there is any truth to that, it is highly unclear to me how one
> could modify Chess so as to alter the relative merits of different openings
> without changing it beyond recognition - with, therefore, unpredictable
> consequences instead of good ones.
>
> John Savard

How could it lead to "unpredictable consequences"? It only requires theoretical analysis with the aid of computers.

Re: Frog King Chess

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Subject: Re: Frog King Chess
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
Injection-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:49:01 +0000
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 by: Quadibloc - Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:49 UTC

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, malw...@gmail.com wrote:

> How could it lead to "unpredictable consequences"? It only requires
> theoretical analysis with the aid of computers.

Right now, though, there's only _one_ computer, AlphaZero, which is owned by
Google, that can really do this kind of stuff properly.

Eventually, something based on Leela or other such programs that will analyze
chess variants will become available, and indeed people will do interesting things
with it...

John Savard

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