On 2021-12-22, Anton Shepelev wrote:

> Steve Hayes:
>
>> Didn't the promyshlenniki expand the border?
>
> Sometimes, but not necessarily. They were not conquerors,
> nor even American pioneers.
>
>> Ah, I've already included Baba Yaga. Mainly to save the
>> characters a bit of time and effort to cross a mountain
>> range on the border -- have them carried overnight in a
>> house on chicken legs.
>
> Well, Baba Yaga has a much faster means of transporta-
> tion -- a large flying mortar, which she uses to abduct peo-
> ple:
>
> https://mysonnik.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/post_5cbdd3936b3ae.jpg

That's not what I first thought of as a "flying mortar" but it makes
more sense!

> This is the right place to confess that I never liked
> Tolkien's use of avitation (Eagles) to save his heroes in
> apparently lost situations. Orks and goblins never have an-
> ti-air weapons, where the Eagles themselves said they feared
> the bows of men...

Relevant (?) Oglaf cartoon:

<https://www.oglaf.com/ornithology/>

>> > I dislike this phenomenon in two cases: when it follows
>> > the trend of abusing Russian characters as antagonists
>> > and villains, and when it pretends some historical basis
>> > while cruelly misinforming the audience, as in our re-
>> > cent movie "The Admiral" about admiral Kolchak.
>>
>> I'll bear that in mind.
>
> I think that good historical fiction interpolates its plot
> between the fixed points of historical fact.
>

--
Let me tell you what I think of bicycling. I think it has done more to
emancipate women than anything else in the world. I stand and rejoice
every time I see a woman ride by on a wheel. ---Susan B. Anthony

On 2021-12-22, Steve Hayes wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 00:27:19 +0300, Anton Shepelev
><anton.txt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Steve Hayes:
>>
>>> Perhaps I'll give the projector/promyhlennik character in
>>> my story the name "Stroganov" -- scion of an obscure
>>> branch of the family, of course.
>>
>>Quite possible. Such dynasties as the Stroganovs may be
>>called *pioneer* industrialists. Yermak and his six hundred
>>men began the affiliation of Syberia to the Russian tsardom
>>when Stroganov employed his services as a guard against Tar-
>>tar raids from across the border.
>
> Didn't the promyshlenniki expand the border?
>
>>
>>I have heard of other fictional characters of Russian inspi-
>>ration, such as Rasputin, Baba Yaga,
>
> Ah, I've already included Baba Yaga. Mainly to save the characters a
> bit of time and effort to cross a mountain range on the border --
> have them carried overnight in a house on chicken legs.

<https://k8g7u9q7.stackpathcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/elp-pictures-at-exhibition-rehearsals2.jpg>

>
> and Medwed (the orignal >name of Beorn in Tolkien's early
> drafts).
>
> Hmm,, interesting possibilities.
>
>>I dislike this
>>phenomenon in two cases: when it follows the trend of abus-
>>ing Russian characters as antagonists and villains, and when
>>it pretends some historical basis while cruelly misinforming
>>the audience, as in our recent movie "The Admiral" about ad-
>>miral Kolchak.
>
> I'll bear that in mind.
>
>
>
>

--
No right of private conversation was enumerated in the Constitution.
I don't suppose it occurred to anyone at the time that it could be
prevented. ---Whitfield Diffie

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 11:19:30 +0300, Anton Shepelev
<anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:

>Steve Hayes:
>
>> Didn't the promyshlenniki expand the border?
>
>Sometimes, but not necessarily. They were not conquerors,
>nor even American pioneers.
>
>> Ah, I've already included Baba Yaga. Mainly to save the
>> characters a bit of time and effort to cross a mountain
>> range on the border -- have them carried overnight in a
>> house on chicken legs.

But I've heard that the Strognaovs built forts.

>Well, Baba Yaga has a much faster means of transporta-
>tion -- a large flying mortar, which she uses to abduct peo-
>ple:
>
> https://mysonnik.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/post_5cbdd3936b3ae.jpg
>
>This is the right place to confess that I never liked
>Tolkien's use of avitation (Eagles) to save his heroes in
>apparently lost situations. Orks and goblins never have an-
>ti-air weapons, where the Eagles themselves said they feared
>the bows of men...

As some have pointed out, if the eagles could get Sam and Frodo out of
Mount Doom, why couldn't they have taken the ring there in the first
place and saved a lot of trouble and heartache?

But I suspect that Tolkien had in min the metaphor of Exodus 19:4.

>> > I dislike this phenomenon in two cases: when it follows
>> > the trend of abusing Russian characters as antagonists
>> > and villains, and when it pretends some historical basis
>> > while cruelly misinforming the audience, as in our re-
>> > cent movie "The Admiral" about admiral Kolchak.
>>
>> I'll bear that in mind.
>
>I think that good historical fiction interpolates its plot
>between the fixed points of historical fact.

Fair enough, and that is why I'm asking about the use of language in
the 17th century, because I thought that Russians might be more likely
to use "promyshlennik" than "biznesmen", and the English might be more
likely to use "projector" than "businessman".

But Baba Yaga, while fictional, is probably not historical, so it goes
a bit beyond historical fiction.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 08:56:17 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 11:19:30 +0300, Anton Shepelev
><anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:
>
>>Steve Hayes:
>>
>>> Didn't the promyshlenniki expand the border?
>>
>>Sometimes, but not necessarily. They were not conquerors,
>>nor even American pioneers.
>>
>>> Ah, I've already included Baba Yaga. Mainly to save the
>>> characters a bit of time and effort to cross a mountain
>>> range on the border -- have them carried overnight in a
>>> house on chicken legs.
>
>But I've heard that the Strognaovs built forts.
>
>
>>Well, Baba Yaga has a much faster means of transporta-
>>tion -- a large flying mortar, which she uses to abduct peo-
>>ple:
>>
>> https://mysonnik.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/post_5cbdd3936b3ae.jpg
>>
>>This is the right place to confess that I never liked
>>Tolkien's use of avitation (Eagles) to save his heroes in
>>apparently lost situations. Orks and goblins never have an-
>>ti-air weapons, where the Eagles themselves said they feared
>>the bows of men...
>
>As some have pointed out, if the eagles could get Sam and Frodo out of
>Mount Doom, why couldn't they have taken the ring there in the first
>place and saved a lot of trouble and heartache?
>
>But I suspect that Tolkien had in min the metaphor of Exodus 19:4.

My guess has always been that, if he had, then the Lord of the Rings
would be named "Thorondor", and men would be permitted to exist solely
to tend the sheep his family ate.

>>> > I dislike this phenomenon in two cases: when it follows
>>> > the trend of abusing Russian characters as antagonists
>>> > and villains, and when it pretends some historical basis
>>> > while cruelly misinforming the audience, as in our re-
>>> > cent movie "The Admiral" about admiral Kolchak.
>>>
>>> I'll bear that in mind.
>>
>>I think that good historical fiction interpolates its plot
>>between the fixed points of historical fact.
>
>Fair enough, and that is why I'm asking about the use of language in
>the 17th century, because I thought that Russians might be more likely
>to use "promyshlennik" than "biznesmen", and the English might be more
>likely to use "projector" than "businessman".
>
>But Baba Yaga, while fictional, is probably not historical, so it goes
>a bit beyond historical fiction.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."