I have another colonial Warren question. This pertains to the ancestry of my 2nd great-grandfather, William Truman Warren a part Ojibwe who was born in 1855 at Crow Wing, Minnesota to James Warren and Sophia Warren. Sophia Warren once wrote in a history of the family that the two Warren families were unrelated. I have been able to successfully trace James Warren’s ancestry to gateway ancestor, Humphrey Warren (1632-1674) of Virginia.

However, the distaff side has been giving me fits for the past two years. I have traced Sophia Warren through father Lyman Marcus Warren, to Lyman B Warren who was a son of Abraham Warren born 1747 in Bristol, Hartford, Connecticut. Abraham fought in the Rev War and died in 1823 in Albany, New York. He is recorded with DAR who lists his parents as a Capt Elisha Warren and Rhoda Andrews. Elisha died intestate in Farmington, Hartford, Connecticut, but probate of his estate does list his widow Rhoda and the following children: Abraham, Hannah, Chloe, Elisha, Lydia, and Sarah.
North American Family Histories, 1500-2000 “Genealogical History of John and Mary Andrews, who settled in Farmington, Connecticut…Pg 71” lists the parents of Elisha Warren as Abraham Warren and Experience Stevens and confirms his spouse as Rhoda Andrews, so I know this is the correct Capt Elisha Warren. I found Abraham Warren (born 1681 in Hartford, Connecticut) and Experience and their ten children listed in the “Families of Ancient Wethersfield, Connecticut” where the family eventually moved thus validating Elisha Warren’s parentage, but this is where I hit the brick wall.
Some genealogists, including some Warren relatives have insisted Abraham Warren is a descendant of Richard Warren of the Mayflower, but I have not been able to find any documents that would substantiate this assertion. Others have indicated he was a descendant of John Warren of Poynton, but again, there is no documentation to indicate this is true. To date, I have not been able to find a will or other probate or church record for this Abraham.

Have any of you discovered links to this Abraham Warren’s ancestry that I may have missed? Thank you.

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 7:34:32 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:

> North American Family Histories, 1500-2000 “Genealogical History of John and Mary Andrews,
> who settled in Farmington, Connecticut…Pg 71” lists the parents of Elisha Warren as Abraham
> Warren and Experience Stevens and confirms his spouse as Rhoda Andrews, so I know this is
> the correct Capt Elisha Warren. I found Abraham Warren (born 1681 in Hartford, Connecticut)
> and Experience and their ten children listed in the “Families of Ancient Wethersfield, Connecticut”
> where the family eventually moved thus validating Elisha Warren’s parentage, but this is where I
> hit the brick wall.

Not only you, apparently.

> Some genealogists, including some Warren relatives have insisted Abraham Warren is a
> descendant of Richard Warren of the Mayflower, but I have not been able to find any documents
> that would substantiate this assertion.

As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .

> Others have indicated he was a descendant of John Warren of Poynton, but again, there is no
> documentation to indicate this is true.

Same phenomenon at work - they have to descend from Warren of Poynton because that is the well-known line through which they can claim a royal descent, almost never from Warren of Ightfield, who may have spewed any number of junior lines during the two centuries their pedigree is only reconstructed through family heads and we have no clue about junior branches until you get to the last generation.

> To date, I have not been able to find a will or other probate or church record for this Abraham.

Doesn't look like one survivied.

> Have any of you discovered links to this Abraham Warren’s ancestry that I may have missed? Thank you.

I see a Google Books snippet from the queries section of the Connecticut Nutmegger, 1993, that asks about Abraham, identifying him as "poss s William of Hartford CT", for whatever that's worth.

taf

A terça-feira, 7 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:20:49 UTC, taf escreveu:
> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 7:34:32 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > North American Family Histories, 1500-2000 “Genealogical History of John and Mary Andrews,
> > who settled in Farmington, Connecticut…Pg 71” lists the parents of Elisha Warren as Abraham
> > Warren and Experience Stevens and confirms his spouse as Rhoda Andrews, so I know this is
> > the correct Capt Elisha Warren. I found Abraham Warren (born 1681 in Hartford, Connecticut)
> > and Experience and their ten children listed in the “Families of Ancient Wethersfield, Connecticut”
> > where the family eventually moved thus validating Elisha Warren’s parentage, but this is where I
> > hit the brick wall.
> Not only you, apparently.
> > Some genealogists, including some Warren relatives have insisted Abraham Warren is a
> > descendant of Richard Warren of the Mayflower, but I have not been able to find any documents
> > that would substantiate this assertion.
> As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .
> > Others have indicated he was a descendant of John Warren of Poynton, but again, there is no
> > documentation to indicate this is true.
> Same phenomenon at work - they have to descend from Warren of Poynton because that is the well-known line through which they can claim a royal descent, almost never from Warren of Ightfield, who may have spewed any number of junior lines during the two centuries their pedigree is only reconstructed through family heads and we have no clue about junior branches until you get to the last generation.
> > To date, I have not been able to find a will or other probate or church record for this Abraham.
> Doesn't look like one survivied.
> > Have any of you discovered links to this Abraham Warren’s ancestry that I may have missed? Thank you.
> I see a Google Books snippet from the queries section of the Connecticut Nutmegger, 1993, that asks about Abraham, identifying him as "poss s William of Hartford CT", for whatever that's worth.
>
> taf
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Warren-8642 has Abraham as son of a William Warren while https://www.geni.com/people/Abraham-Warren/6000000007150589554 has him as a son of John or John William Warren. We should note second names were very rare at the time. Both have him as son of Elizabeth Crow, though her Geni profile, despite including the surname and a parentage, says she was proven to be Elizabeth Branson instead. This is a mess.

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Warren-8642 has Abraham as son of a William Warren
> while https://www.geni.com/people/Abraham-Warren/6000000007150589554 has him
> as a son of John or John William Warren. We should note second names were very rare
> at the time. Both have him as son of Elizabeth Crow, though her Geni profile, despite
> including the surname and a parentage, says she was proven to be Elizabeth Branson
> instead. This is a mess.

As you say, double names were extremely rare for this time and place. If an online pedigree gives two names, it almost always means that someone found different fathers (or mothers) named in different sources and entered them as if they were both names for the same man (or woman). It is an absurd way of dealing with conflicting information, but is nonetheless quite common.

taf

A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 06:18:29 UTC, taf escreveu:
> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>
> > https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Warren-8642 has Abraham as son of a William Warren
> > while https://www.geni.com/people/Abraham-Warren/6000000007150589554 has him
> > as a son of John or John William Warren. We should note second names were very rare
> > at the time. Both have him as son of Elizabeth Crow, though her Geni profile, despite
> > including the surname and a parentage, says she was proven to be Elizabeth Branson
> > instead. This is a mess.
> As you say, double names were extremely rare for this time and place. If an online pedigree gives two names, it almost always means that someone found different fathers (or mothers) named in different sources and entered them as if they were both names for the same man (or woman). It is an absurd way of dealing with conflicting information, but is nonetheless quite common.
>
> taf

What about the Elizabeth Crow thing?

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 12:20:49 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

> As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .

I agree and that is what's making this so very frustrating.

> Same phenomenon at work - they have to descend from Warren of Poynton because that is the well-known line through which they can claim a royal descent, almost never from Warren of Ightfield, who may have spewed any number of junior lines during the two centuries their pedigree is only reconstructed through family heads and we have no clue about junior branches until you get to the last generation.

Do the Warrens of Ightfield have any known colonial immigrants that you know of? I ask this because while this line of colonial Warrens were not particularly well off, primarily earning their living as farmers and tradesmen, they did seem to marry well. Associated marriage lines include the families of Whipple, Angell, Rich, Jerome, and Windsor. Additionally, the Rich family descends from yet another Abraham Warren originally from Heston, St Leonard, Middlesex, England who immigrated to Salem, Massachusetts in 1637. While his ancestry also remains unknown, I have a sneaking suspicion he may be a cousin of Abraham Warren, son of Capt Elisha.

> I see a Google Books snippet from the queries section of the Connecticut Nutmegger, 1993, that asks about Abraham, identifying him as "poss s William of Hartford CT", for whatever that's worth.

I saw something that stated the same, but could not find anything on a William of Hartford that would have fit the timeline. But thanks for the thoughts.

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 12:20:49 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

> I see a Google Books snippet from the queries section of the Connecticut Nutmegger, 1993, that asks about Abraham, identifying him as "poss s William of Hartford CT", for whatever that's worth.

Oh, crap. This is a possible good lead. Ignore my last comment about William. I've not had enough caffeine this morning..

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 5:01:35 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 06:18:29 UTC, taf escreveu:
> > On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

> What about the Elizabeth Crow thing?

There is an Elizabeth Crow who married William Warren and they did have a child named Abraham who could be the subject of my inquiry. In William's will dated Nov 1689 he orders that "Abraham be bound until he is 21 years of age, & that it be done with their Mother's Consent." Since my Abraham Warren was born in 1681, this could be him. I was just hoping for more solid evidence.

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:49:28 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Do the Warrens of Ightfield have any known colonial immigrants that you know of?

The Warrens of Ightfield (originally Warenne, later Wareyn, never actually Warren that I have seen except in late pedigrees) arose from the Warenne's of Whitchurch in the late 12th century, and ended in the male line in the 15th, but in between is a bogus visitation pedigree with all invented wives and a reconstructed heir-to-heir line of succession, with almost no known younger sons. The sole exception is a line claimed to descended from a younger brother of John Wareyn (1383,-1413), traced in a Warren family genealogy that has both some valuable material and some dubious stuff, making it hard to evaluate information uniquely found there. The account gives seven generations of a single male line, so about 2 centuries, ending with a complete family of three sons and three daughters, probably the living generation at the time the pedigree was recorded. Those are the only descendants of the family that I know of during the Great Migration period, and even then I am not comfortable that it is reliable.

It occurs to me I have limited my answer to male-line Warren descendants of the family, but colonial New England immigrant Robert Abell descends from the eventual heiress of the senior line, Margaret Wareyn (the daughter of the above John), via Mainwaring of Ightfield, and there may be other Mainwaring of Ightfield immigrant descendants not immediately coming to mind.

taf

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:59:37 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 5:01:35 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 06:18:29 UTC, taf escreveu:
> > > On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>
> > What about the Elizabeth Crow thing?
> There is an Elizabeth Crow who married William Warren and they did have a child named Abraham who could be the subject of my inquiry. In William's will dated Nov 1689 he orders that "Abraham be bound until he is 21 years of age, & that it be done with their Mother's Consent." Since my Abraham Warren was born in 1681, this could be him. I was just hoping for more solid evidence.

That's better than I thought you would find.

taf

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:26:20 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:49:28 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Do the Warrens of Ightfield have any known colonial immigrants that you know of?
> The Warrens of Ightfield (originally Warenne, later Wareyn, never actually Warren that I have seen except in late pedigrees) arose from the Warenne's of Whitchurch in the late 12th century, and ended in the male line in the 15th, but in between is a bogus visitation pedigree with all invented wives and a reconstructed heir-to-heir line of succession, with almost no known younger sons. The sole exception is a line claimed to descended from a younger brother of John Wareyn (1383,-1413), traced in a Warren family genealogy that has both some valuable material and some dubious stuff, making it hard to evaluate information uniquely found there. The account gives seven generations of a single male line, so about 2 centuries, ending with a complete family of three sons and three daughters, probably the living generation at the time the pedigree was recorded. Those are the only descendants of the family that I know of during the Great Migration period, and even then I am not comfortable that it is reliable.
>
> It occurs to me I have limited my answer to male-line Warren descendants of the family, but colonial New England immigrant Robert Abell descends from the eventual heiress of the senior line, Margaret Wareyn (the daughter of the above John), via Mainwaring of Ightfield, and there may be other Mainwaring of Ightfield immigrant descendants not immediately coming to mind.
>
> taf

Rev. Peter Bulkeley and his niece Olive (Welby) Farwell come to mind for me..

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 9:20:49 AM UTC-8, taf wrote:
> As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had daughters)

Quick correction, just for the archive - his only _surviving_ children were daughters. His estate was eventually divided among two daughters by his first wife and one by the second, but 14 years earlier the widow reported needing expense money to care for her two children by him, so there must have been another child, sex unknown, who died childless. The takehome is the same: any claim that a New England Brown descends in the male line from Mayflower Peter is demonstrably false.

taf

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:26:20 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:49:28 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Do the Warrens of Ightfield have any known colonial immigrants that you know of?
> The Warrens of Ightfield (originally Warenne, later Wareyn, never actually Warren that I have seen except in late pedigrees) arose from the Warenne's of Whitchurch in the late 12th century, and ended in the male line in the 15th, but in between is a bogus visitation pedigree with all invented wives and a reconstructed heir-to-heir line of succession, with almost no known younger sons. The sole exception is a line claimed to descended from a younger brother of John Wareyn (1383,-1413), traced in a Warren family genealogy that has both some valuable material and some dubious stuff, making it hard to evaluate information uniquely found there. The account gives seven generations of a single male line, so about 2 centuries, ending with a complete family of three sons and three daughters, probably the living generation at the time the pedigree was recorded. Those are the only descendants of the family that I know of during the Great Migration period, and even then I am not comfortable that it is reliable.
>
> It occurs to me I have limited my answer to male-line Warren descendants of the family, but colonial New England immigrant Robert Abell descends from the eventual heiress of the senior line, Margaret Wareyn (the daughter of the above John), via Mainwaring of Ightfield, and there may be other Mainwaring of Ightfield immigrant descendants not immediately coming to mind.
>
> taf

The male line should be sufficient. If they were never Warrens and the line daughtered out in the 15th century, this cannot be associated with these Abraham Warrens of Connecticut of the 18th century. Thank you so much for the synopsis of the family line.

On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:49:55 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The male line should be sufficient. If they were never Warrens and the line daughtered
> out in the 15th century, this cannot be associated with these Abraham Warrens of
> Connecticut of the 18th century. Thank you so much for the synopsis of the family line.

Just to be sure this is clear, as I left out a qualifier when I originally stated it, it was the senior male line ended in the 15th century. That is the only line that is well documented, but may not be the only line, and as I said there is a pedigree tracing a supposed junior line to the colonial era, plus there may well have been other junior lines that have escaped notice.

As I reconstruct the line, it runs as follows:

1. William de Warenne alias de Blancminster alias de Whitchurch alias de Albo Monasterio, d. 1236
2a. William de Warenne of Whitchurch, d. 1260 d.s.p.m.
2b. Griffin de Warenne alias Fitz William alias de Blancminster alias de Albo Monasterio alias de Ightfield, app. d. bef. 1280
3. Griffin de Warenne, d. 1283|4 m. Isabel de Pulford
4. John de Warenne, b. 1274|1282, d. aft 1348
5. Griffin de Warenne, b. say 1299
6. John de Warenne, b. say 1319, d. prob. bef. 1356
7. Griffin de Warenne, b. say 1339, d. aft. 1389
8. Griffin de Warenne alias Wareyn, b. say 1359, d. aft. 1405
9a. John Wareyn, b. in or about 1383, d. 1413, m. Margaret Cheney
10a. Griffin Wareyn, b. about 1399/1400, d. 1415, s.p.
10b. Margery/Margaret Wareyn, b. 1401, m. 1) John Egerton (div), m. 2) Hugh Cholmondesley, m. 3) William Mainwaring

(the following line as given by A History and Genealogy of the Warren Family . . . . without source or dates, but based on the number of generations it must have stretched to the colonial era - cuisine best served with many grains of salt)

9b. Griffin Warren, younger son of 8. Griffin, m. Isabel Warmincham
10. John Warren, m. _____ Malbon
11. John Warren, m. Isabel Warren (dau John, son Laurence Warren of Poynton)
12. Richard Warren, m. Hawise Greg
13. Roger Warren m. Alice dau Robert ap Thomas
14a. Charles Warren m. Margaret Wibanbury
15a. Richard, m. Rose Allen, with issue
14b. John Warren, m. Margery, daughter Humphrey Mainwaring
14c. Ralph Warren
14d. Alice Warren, m. John Brooke
14e. Margaret Warren, m. ____ of Gloucestershire
14f. Helen Warren, m. John Bostock

Note that for both lines, it is highly unlikely that there wasn't some additional younger sons among all those straight-line descents.
taf

On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 8:13:37 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 12:59:37 UTC, sar...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 5:01:35 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > A quarta-feira, 8 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 06:18:29 UTC, taf escreveu:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> >
> > > What about the Elizabeth Crow thing?
> > There is an Elizabeth Crow who married William Warren and they did have a child named Abraham who could be the subject of my inquiry. In William's will dated Nov 1689 he orders that "Abraham be bound until he is 21 years of age, & that it be done with their Mother's Consent." Since my Abraham Warren was born in 1681, this could be him. I was just hoping for more solid evidence.
> https://www.geni.com/people/Elizabeth-Warren/6000000001589670176 says
> "The idea that her maiden name was Crow, or that she was the widow Crow, was put to rest in the January 1971 issue of The American Genealogist (Vol. 47, No.1, page 17). It is quite clear that she was Elizabeth Danson."

Thanks for pointing this out. I recently discovered this woman to be an ancestress of Anna Faris. As a descendant of Elizabeth's formerly alleged father John Crow, it's a little disappointing to hear of the lack of connection, but more important to improve the accuracy of my research.

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 12:20:49 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 7:34:32 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > North American Family Histories, 1500-2000 “Genealogical History of John and Mary Andrews,
> > who settled in Farmington, Connecticut…Pg 71” lists the parents of Elisha Warren as Abraham
> > Warren and Experience Stevens and confirms his spouse as Rhoda Andrews, so I know this is
> > the correct Capt Elisha Warren. I found Abraham Warren (born 1681 in Hartford, Connecticut)
> > and Experience and their ten children listed in the “Families of Ancient Wethersfield, Connecticut”
> > where the family eventually moved thus validating Elisha Warren’s parentage, but this is where I
> > hit the brick wall.
> Not only you, apparently.
> > Some genealogists, including some Warren relatives have insisted Abraham Warren is a
> > descendant of Richard Warren of the Mayflower, but I have not been able to find any documents
> > that would substantiate this assertion.
> As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .
>
> taf

That is DEFINITELY not true... the number of Jabez Warren (Gray) of Brimfield, CT/Lebanon, CT descendants is a very large group and we have a distinct DNA record which identifies us as a part of the Gray family of Plymouth. Our group includes Gideon Warren, a prominent Patriot officer, Jabez Warren III, founder of Aurora, New York, and the Wilson brothers and Mike Love of The Beach Boys/

We at one time WERE attached officially to Richard Warren in the Mayflower Society, but thankfully DNA evidence put that to rest. This does not, however, rule out his mother being a Warren. The fact that the mother named him "Jabez" could be a clue but I don't think we will ever know, because an unmarried woman or a woman having a child by another man while married would have been a terrible scandal at that time. The fact that no mother claimed him in any records and the fact that one of the Gray sons would have been the father points to avoiding said terrible scandal.

D. E. Larocque

On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 8:13:37 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

> "The idea that her maiden name was Crow, or that she was the widow Crow, was put to rest in the January 1971 issue of The American Genealogist (Vol. 47, No.1, page 17). It is quite clear that she was Elizabeth Danson."

Thank you for that information. I will have to see if that issue is still available.

On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 7:14:51 PM UTC-5, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:

> That is DEFINITELY not true... the number of Jabez Warren (Gray) of Brimfield, CT/Lebanon, CT descendants is a very large group and we have a distinct DNA record which identifies us as a part of the Gray family of Plymouth. Our group includes Gideon Warren, a prominent Patriot officer, Jabez Warren III, founder of Aurora, New York, and the Wilson brothers and Mike Love of The Beach Boys/
>
> We at one time WERE attached officially to Richard Warren in the Mayflower Society, but thankfully DNA evidence put that to rest. This does not, however, rule out his mother being a Warren. The fact that the mother named him "Jabez" could be a clue but I don't think we will ever know, because an unmarried woman or a woman having a child by another man while married would have been a terrible scandal at that time. The fact that no mother claimed him in any records and the fact that one of the Gray sons would have been the father points to avoiding said terrible scandal.
>
> D. E. Larocque

I just noticed a post about Jabez Warren I that was made to genealogy.com back in 2007 that connects this individual with the Bissell family of Windsor. I am also descended from this line (Capt John Bissell), but it is not through any of my known Warrens.

So, are all of these Warrens in CT somehow related to each other and not specifically to Richard of the Mayflower?

On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 8:39:41 AM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:49:55 AM UTC-8, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > The male line should be sufficient. If they were never Warrens and the line daughtered
> > out in the 15th century, this cannot be associated with these Abraham Warrens of
> > Connecticut of the 18th century. Thank you so much for the synopsis of the family line.
> Just to be sure this is clear, as I left out a qualifier when I originally stated it, it was the senior male line ended in the 15th century. That is the only line that is well documented, but may not be the only line, and as I said there is a pedigree tracing a supposed junior line to the colonial era, plus there may well have been other junior lines that have escaped notice.
>
> As I reconstruct the line, it runs as follows:
>
> 1. William de Warenne alias de Blancminster alias de Whitchurch alias de Albo Monasterio, d. 1236
> 2a. William de Warenne of Whitchurch, d. 1260 d.s.p.m.
> 2b. Griffin de Warenne alias Fitz William alias de Blancminster alias de Albo Monasterio alias de Ightfield, app. d. bef. 1280
> 3. Griffin de Warenne, d. 1283|4 m. Isabel de Pulford
> 4. John de Warenne, b. 1274|1282, d. aft 1348
> 5. Griffin de Warenne, b. say 1299
> 6. John de Warenne, b. say 1319, d. prob. bef. 1356
> 7. Griffin de Warenne, b. say 1339, d. aft. 1389
> 8. Griffin de Warenne alias Wareyn, b. say 1359, d. aft. 1405
> 9a. John Wareyn, b. in or about 1383, d. 1413, m. Margaret Cheney
> 10a. Griffin Wareyn, b. about 1399/1400, d. 1415, s.p.
> 10b. Margery/Margaret Wareyn, b. 1401, m. 1) John Egerton (div), m. 2) Hugh Cholmondesley, m. 3) William Mainwaring
>
> (the following line as given by A History and Genealogy of the Warren Family . . . . without source or dates, but based on the number of generations it must have stretched to the colonial era - cuisine best served with many grains of salt)
>
> 9b. Griffin Warren, younger son of 8. Griffin, m. Isabel Warmincham
> 10. John Warren, m. _____ Malbon
> 11. John Warren, m. Isabel Warren (dau John, son Laurence Warren of Poynton)
> 12. Richard Warren, m. Hawise Greg
> 13. Roger Warren m. Alice dau Robert ap Thomas
> 14a. Charles Warren m. Margaret Wibanbury
> 15a. Richard, m. Rose Allen, with issue
> 14b. John Warren, m. Margery, daughter Humphrey Mainwaring
> 14c. Ralph Warren
> 14d. Alice Warren, m. John Brooke
> 14e. Margaret Warren, m. ____ of Gloucestershire
> 14f. Helen Warren, m. John Bostock
>
> Note that for both lines, it is highly unlikely that there wasn't some additional younger sons among all those straight-line descents.
> taf

I will have to trace some of these down to see if any do end up in Connecticut. Thank you.

A sábado, 11 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 00:15:45 UTC, sar...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 8:13:37 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>
> > "The idea that her maiden name was Crow, or that she was the widow Crow, was put to rest in the January 1971 issue of The American Genealogist (Vol. 47, No.1, page 17). It is quite clear that she was Elizabeth Danson."
> Thank you for that information. I will have to see if that issue is still available.

Strangely, despite the note, the profile still shows her as a Crow.

On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 7:32:26 PM UTC-5, sar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 7:14:51 PM UTC-5, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
>
> > That is DEFINITELY not true... the number of Jabez Warren (Gray) of Brimfield, CT/Lebanon, CT descendants is a very large group and we have a distinct DNA record which identifies us as a part of the Gray family of Plymouth. Our group includes Gideon Warren, a prominent Patriot officer, Jabez Warren III, founder of Aurora, New York, and the Wilson brothers and Mike Love of The Beach Boys/
> >
> > We at one time WERE attached officially to Richard Warren in the Mayflower Society, but thankfully DNA evidence put that to rest. This does not, however, rule out his mother being a Warren. The fact that the mother named him "Jabez" could be a clue but I don't think we will ever know, because an unmarried woman or a woman having a child by another man while married would have been a terrible scandal at that time. The fact that no mother claimed him in any records and the fact that one of the Gray sons would have been the father points to avoiding said terrible scandal.
> >
> > D. E. Larocque
> I just noticed a post about Jabez Warren I that was made to genealogy.com back in 2007 that connects this individual with the Bissell family of Windsor. I am also descended from this line (Capt John Bissell), but it is not through any of my known Warrens.
>
> So, are all of these Warrens in CT somehow related to each other and not specifically to Richard of the Mayflower?

The connection to Bissell is only a theory, as the marriage record for Jabez Warren I and Mary is torn, leaving her name as "Mary Bi----". Gideon Warren married a Bishop, but the research of Kathleen Fenton below establishes a plausible theory that she was a Bissell:

"As his son Gideon named a son David Bishop, it has been speculated that his mother’s maiden name was Bishop; however, no Mary of an appropriate age can be found in the Bishop family, and Bishop is now thought to be the maiden name of Gideon’s first wife, Ann.There was a Mary BISSELL, youngest daughter of Nathaniel Bissell of Windsor, CT and his second wife, Dorothy Fitch (Charles Manwaring, Early Connecticut Probates, 1710-1715); named last in his 1713 will as one of his three youngest daughters, she was probably born in 1690-91 (probably just before her mother died 28 June 1691).As his will was written in September 1713 and Nathaniel Bissell died in March 1713/14, before Jabez and Mary married, this only proves that Nathaniel had a young, presumably still-unmarried (as no husband or married name is mentioned in the will) daughter Mary.(A more thorough search of probate records might turn up some sort of distribution/settlement papers - if they survived so long - but we found none.)We can speculate that Jabez Warren (married 1716/17) was born about 1690-95, and it’s possible (though unproven)that this Mary Bissell was his wife.The baptisms of two children of Jabez and Mary - a daughter in 1724 and a son in 1721 - are recorded at Lebanon where they married, though their births are also recorded at Brimfield, Hampden county, MA, where apparently the family had moved by the early 1720s.This suggests that probably either Mary or Jabez had some family connection with Lebanon that encouraged them to bring their children to Lebanon for baptism."

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/warren/11287/

Darrell

On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 4:14:51 PM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 12:20:49 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> > As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .
>
> That is DEFINITELY not true...

> We at one time WERE attached officially to Richard Warren

Doesn't really contradict what I said.

taf

On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 9:14:30 AM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 4:14:51 PM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 12:20:49 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> > > As I am sure you are aware, anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren, just as anyone named Brown is made to descend from Peter Brown (even though he only had daughters) and everyone named Cooke is traced from Francis Cooke. Hope springs eternal. . . .
> >
> > That is DEFINITELY not true...
> > We at one time WERE attached officially to Richard Warren
> Doesn't really contradict what I said.
>
> taf

"anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren"

"is automatically claimed" infers the present tense which is what I was talking about. In the past, there were so many wild speculations that it is a valid statement but not now... DNA has radically changed the game and has made us Gray descendants vice Warren.

Darrell

On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 9:24:55 AM UTC-8, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> "anyone in 18th-century Amreica with the surname Warren is automatically claimed as a descendant of Mayflower passenger Richard Warren"
> "is automatically claimed" infers the present tense which is what I was talking about. In the past, there were so many wild speculations that it is a valid statement but not now... DNA has radically changed the game and has made us Gray descendants vice Warren.

Note that I never specified _by whom_ these rash claims are reached. Yes, in the present tense, in spite of DNA, there still exist a certain type of genealogist who when finding someone with the same surname as a desirable potential ancestor does indeed automatically adopt the connection. Of course, not everyone is this shallow, but it is absurd to claim that with the application of DNA to genealogy, all sloppy genealogy has just evaporated. Indeed, with Ancestry recommending pedigree connections, the less sophisticated DNA customers who don't realize Ancestry is just telling them what someone else has in their pedigree rather than a conclusion drawn fromt he DNA, it is actually helping to propagate bogus genealogy rather than myraculously resolving it all. DNA is a valuable tool in the hands of someone who knows what it means, but is far from the radical game-changing panacea the abolishes the type of genealogy I was talking about to the dustbin of history among the entire genealogical community.

taf

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 2:28:02 PM UTC-8, Elizabeth A wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 4:26:20 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

> > It occurs to me I have limited my answer to male-line Warren descendants of
> > the family, but colonial New England immigrant Robert Abell descends from
> > the eventual heiress of the senior line, Margaret Wareyn (the daughter of the
> > above John), via Mainwaring of Ightfield, and there may be other Mainwaring
> > of Ightfield immigrant descendants not immediately coming to mind.
>
> Rev. Peter Bulkeley and his niece Olive (Welby) Farwell come to mind for me.

On this Bulkeley descent, I am unfamiliar with its historiography, but I have to say what I have found on a quick tool through the usual suspects leaves me a little ambivalent. Maybe there is more recent work on the connection than I have found.

Visitation of Shropshire, pedigree 1 (p 101):
1. Thomas Charleton . . .
2. Rob'tus Charleton de Apeley ob. 10 E 4 = Maria filia Rob'ti Corbet de Morton Ar.
3. Richard Charleton de Apeley ob. 13 H 8 = Anna filia Will'i Manwaring in co. Salop
4. William Charleton . . .

Visitation of Shropshire, pedigree 2 (p 108-9)
1. Thomas Knightley als. Charleton . . .
2. Robert Charleton of Apley = Anne da to Wm Manwaringe of Ightfeeld
3. Rich. Charleton of Apley = Alice da to Robt Corbett of Morton Esq
.. . .
4. William Charleton

Jacobus recognized the conflict, and selected the first as the more reliable, but the only rationale given related to where the two pedigrees linked to the Lords Charleton, not on this part of the pedigree. Alice Maude Peel in an article in Trans Shropshire Arch Hist Soc gave the following:

1. Thomas Charlton . . .
2. Robert Charlton =1 Alice Brown =2 Elizabeth Mainwaring dau WIlliam Mainwaring of Ightfield in 1476
3a. Richard Charlton d.s.p.
3b. William Charlton

Richardson follows Jacobus for the pedigree itself but appears to draw the name Elizabeth for the Mainwaring daughter from the conflicting pedigree of Peel without any explanation for this mix and match approach. (He does cite a TAG article I don't have access to for the Robert = Mary Corbet match..)

Basically, this is a mess. with the only primary sources being late-date pedigrees that conflict (unles there is something in that TAG article). Is anyone aware of further primary sources being brought to bear on this question?

(Perhaps relevant, but not very informative - TNA C 241/268/24 has Richard Corbet and Richard Charleton as two of the debtors, 1495.)

taf