On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 3:15:04 AM UTC-5, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 3:48:13 AM UTC+1, smittyi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> As one of the people contacted by Christopher before posting here I give some handy links:
>
> 1. Round's article can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE222605&from=fhd
>
> 2. Copinger's book can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE1916532&from=fhd
>
> 3. The wikitree profile for the person who is in my opinion the first critical link to check is here, and gives a bit more information than Round does: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Smyth-471
>
> I think the first question is whether this man really changed his name from Carrington to Smith, after the fall of Richard II.
>
> I think the key piece of evidence is the supposedly Middle English letter which Round thinks is obviously fake. (And I agree with him.) A transcript can be found in Copinger, and excerpts in Round.
>
> (I think it is uncontroversial to say that Round's way of writing does lead to lots of temptation to chase false leads, and not home in on whatever is most critical. taf's points are well taken.)
>
> Best Regards
>
> Andrew

Hello,

Coming back to this thread, I would like to confirm or deny the line of Caringtons leading to Emma Carington, who appears as wife of one of the Randall Brereton of Malpas.

One of the published visitations of Cheshire contains a chart for the Carryngtons, though short and lacking the names of the wives,
The Visitation of Cheshire in the Year 1580 By Robert Glover, William Fellows, Thomas Benolt, Sir Thomas Chaloner · 1882.

It lists the following
1 William, given, father of
2. William, father of
3. George, father of several sons:
3.1 sir John, father of two sons
3.1.1 Hamlet
3.1.2 Thomas
and one daughter
3.1.3 Emme, ux. Randoll Brereton (father of Thomas Brereton, father of Urian Brereton)
3.2 Nicholas
3.3 Ralph
3.4 William (who continues the line)
and finally
3.5 Edmond

Copinger's book shows Isabel de Beeston as wife of sir John (p. 84, and others)

The same book, on page 62 and others, brings Mathilde le Wareyn as the wife (second to the author) of George. According to Copinger, she was daughter of Nicholas le Wareyn , lord of the manor of Stockport, son and heir of sir John de Wareyn Has this information been verified?

The same book, on pages and 42 and 43, shows one Matilde de Arderne as wife of the second William of this line. She is presented as daughter of Peter Arderne, second son of sir John Ardene.

At least one Matilda, widow of William of Carryngton, knight appears in a surviving document listed through the National Archives:
Reference: SC 8/40/1959
Description:
Petitioners: Matilda Caryngton (Carrington), widow of William de Carrington, knight.
Name(s): Caryngton (Carrington),
Matilda Addressees: King and council.
Nature of request: Caryngton states that her husband bought from the justice and chamberlain of Chester the wardship and marriage of Thomas Weaver, etc...

Is there proof that Emme was in fact the daughter of sir John?

Copinger says on page 84 that her parents married in 1417, and in other pages that her father died in 1452 and her mother in 1455.

I have been trying to get some dates on these lines since there is some information of one Alice Brereton, married to William de Sandford of the Lea, living in 1508. She might be one of Emma's daughters. Alice is claimed to have had female descendants down into the 1500s.

J. Sardina

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 9:03:43 PM UTC-5, J. Sardina wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 3:15:04 AM UTC-5, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 3:48:13 AM UTC+1, smittyi...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > As one of the people contacted by Christopher before posting here I give some handy links:
> >
> > 1. Round's article can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE222605&from=fhd
> >
> > 2. Copinger's book can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE1916532&from=fhd
> >
> > 3. The wikitree profile for the person who is in my opinion the first critical link to check is here, and gives a bit more information than Round does: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Smyth-471
> >
> > I think the first question is whether this man really changed his name from Carrington to Smith, after the fall of Richard II.
> >
> > I think the key piece of evidence is the supposedly Middle English letter which Round thinks is obviously fake. (And I agree with him.) A transcript can be found in Copinger, and excerpts in Round.
> >
> > (I think it is uncontroversial to say that Round's way of writing does lead to lots of temptation to chase false leads, and not home in on whatever is most critical. taf's points are well taken.)
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> > Andrew
>
> Hello,
>
> Coming back to this thread, I would like to confirm or deny the line of Caringtons leading to Emma Carington, who appears as wife of one of the Randall Brereton of Malpas.
>
> One of the published visitations of Cheshire contains a chart for the Carryngtons, though short and lacking the names of the wives,
> The Visitation of Cheshire in the Year 1580 By Robert Glover, William Fellows, Thomas Benolt, Sir Thomas Chaloner · 1882.
>
> It lists the following
> 1 William, given, father of
> 2. William, father of
> 3. George, father of several sons:
> 3.1 sir John, father of two sons
> 3.1.1 Hamlet
> 3.1.2 Thomas
> and one daughter
> 3.1.3 Emme, ux. Randoll Brereton (father of Thomas Brereton, father of Urian Brereton)
> 3.2 Nicholas
> 3.3 Ralph
> 3.4 William (who continues the line)
> and finally
> 3.5 Edmond
>
> Copinger's book shows Isabel de Beeston as wife of sir John (p. 84, and others)
>
> The same book, on page 62 and others, brings Mathilde le Wareyn as the wife (second to the author) of George. According to Copinger, she was daughter of Nicholas le Wareyn , lord of the manor of Stockport, son and heir of sir John de Wareyn Has this information been verified?
>
> The same book, on pages and 42 and 43, shows one Matilde de Arderne as wife of the second William of this line. She is presented as daughter of Peter Arderne, second son of sir John Ardene.
>
> At least one Matilda, widow of William of Carryngton, knight appears in a surviving document listed through the National Archives:
> Reference: SC 8/40/1959
> Description:
> Petitioners: Matilda Caryngton (Carrington), widow of William de Carrington, knight.
> Name(s): Caryngton (Carrington),
> Matilda Addressees: King and council.
> Nature of request: Caryngton states that her husband bought from the justice and chamberlain of Chester the wardship and marriage of Thomas Weaver, etc...
>
> Is there proof that Emme was in fact the daughter of sir John?
>
> Copinger says on page 84 that her parents married in 1417, and in other pages that her father died in 1452 and her mother in 1455.
>
> I have been trying to get some dates on these lines since there is some information of one Alice Brereton, married to William de Sandford of the Lea, living in 1508. She might be one of Emma's daughters. Alice is claimed to have had female descendants down into the 1500s.
>
> J. Sardina

Hi J.,

For what it's worth, Roberts' RD500 has at least one line that runs through Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington, apparently.
(https://books.google.com/books?id=-k5lAAAAMAAJ&q=carrington+brereton+ormerod&dq=carrington+brereton+ormerod&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiUor6Jm-L0AhUejYkEHYfUDnMQ6AF6BAgCEAI)

Unfortunately, RD500 has not been available through Ancestry Library Edition for some time, or I would offer to send you the page images off-list. I would try to get your hands on a copy through inter-library loan if possible--it's certainly not worth buying the volume just for this one lead, not least because Roberts didn't typically due detailed primary source research on many of the families in his works, but largely relied on secondary sources.

However, royal ancestry may not be present, at least as claimed. Certainly the line as given by Douglas Richardson in Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd ed. (2011), pp.322-3, which runs Ipsontes->Swinnerton->Holland. I'm not sure, but I suspect Gary Boyd Robert's brief account in RD500 relies at least in part on Richardson's PA. The connection between the Brereton and Ipstones families appears sound, as does the connection between the connection between Ipstones and Swinnerton. The problem is that, although there is probably some connection between the Swinnerton and Holland families, it is not as given in PA. Nat Taylor wrote an article on this, at at http://nltaylor.net/pdfs/a_Gresley.pdf. It's also worth noting that Boyer mentions that the Swinnertons descend from the Beck or Beke family, which in turn has a close connection to the Stafford family, but the exact nature of the Beke-Stafford connection is also unclear (see https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/oHoMF9NAQjg/m/S37ZMQLFfKoJ).

Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist, Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you. Boyer also cites the Visitation of Cheshire, which I see you've already found, as well as Omerod's Cheshire, which has been published in at least two editions, frustrating my attempt to track down that citation. Boyer's book can be found here:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1028677?availability=Family%20History%20Library

I'm not sure if you can view either of these volumes if your IP address is based outside of the United States--if not, I can send you both off-list if you send me a private email.

-Elizabeth A

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 10:23:31 PM UTC-5, Elizabeth A wrote:
> On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 9:03:43 PM UTC-5, J. Sardina wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 3:15:04 AM UTC-5, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 3:48:13 AM UTC+1, smittyi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > As one of the people contacted by Christopher before posting here I give some handy links:
> > >
> > > 1. Round's article can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE222605&from=fhd
> > >
> > > 2. Copinger's book can be found here: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE1916532&from=fhd
> > >
> > > 3. The wikitree profile for the person who is in my opinion the first critical link to check is here, and gives a bit more information than Round does: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Smyth-471
> > >
> > > I think the first question is whether this man really changed his name from Carrington to Smith, after the fall of Richard II.
> > >
> > > I think the key piece of evidence is the supposedly Middle English letter which Round thinks is obviously fake. (And I agree with him.) A transcript can be found in Copinger, and excerpts in Round.
> > >
> > > (I think it is uncontroversial to say that Round's way of writing does lead to lots of temptation to chase false leads, and not home in on whatever is most critical. taf's points are well taken.)
> > >
> > > Best Regards
> > >
> > > Andrew
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Coming back to this thread, I would like to confirm or deny the line of Caringtons leading to Emma Carington, who appears as wife of one of the Randall Brereton of Malpas.
> >
> > One of the published visitations of Cheshire contains a chart for the Carryngtons, though short and lacking the names of the wives,
> > The Visitation of Cheshire in the Year 1580 By Robert Glover, William Fellows, Thomas Benolt, Sir Thomas Chaloner · 1882.
> >
> > It lists the following
> > 1 William, given, father of
> > 2. William, father of
> > 3. George, father of several sons:
> > 3.1 sir John, father of two sons
> > 3.1.1 Hamlet
> > 3.1.2 Thomas
> > and one daughter
> > 3.1.3 Emme, ux. Randoll Brereton (father of Thomas Brereton, father of Urian Brereton)
> > 3.2 Nicholas
> > 3.3 Ralph
> > 3.4 William (who continues the line)
> > and finally
> > 3.5 Edmond
> >
> > Copinger's book shows Isabel de Beeston as wife of sir John (p. 84, and others)
> >
> > The same book, on page 62 and others, brings Mathilde le Wareyn as the wife (second to the author) of George. According to Copinger, she was daughter of Nicholas le Wareyn , lord of the manor of Stockport, son and heir of sir John de Wareyn Has this information been verified?
> >
> > The same book, on pages and 42 and 43, shows one Matilde de Arderne as wife of the second William of this line. She is presented as daughter of Peter Arderne, second son of sir John Ardene.
> >
> > At least one Matilda, widow of William of Carryngton, knight appears in a surviving document listed through the National Archives:
> > Reference: SC 8/40/1959
> > Description:
> > Petitioners: Matilda Caryngton (Carrington), widow of William de Carrington, knight.
> > Name(s): Caryngton (Carrington),
> > Matilda Addressees: King and council.
> > Nature of request: Caryngton states that her husband bought from the justice and chamberlain of Chester the wardship and marriage of Thomas Weaver, etc...
> >
> > Is there proof that Emme was in fact the daughter of sir John?
> >
> > Copinger says on page 84 that her parents married in 1417, and in other pages that her father died in 1452 and her mother in 1455.
> >
> > I have been trying to get some dates on these lines since there is some information of one Alice Brereton, married to William de Sandford of the Lea, living in 1508. She might be one of Emma's daughters. Alice is claimed to have had female descendants down into the 1500s.
> >
> > J. Sardina
> Hi J.,
>
> For what it's worth, Roberts' RD500 has at least one line that runs through Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington, apparently.
> (https://books.google.com/books?id=-k5lAAAAMAAJ&q=carrington+brereton+ormerod&dq=carrington+brereton+ormerod&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiUor6Jm-L0AhUejYkEHYfUDnMQ6AF6BAgCEAI)
>
> Unfortunately, RD500 has not been available through Ancestry Library Edition for some time, or I would offer to send you the page images off-list. I would try to get your hands on a copy through inter-library loan if possible--it's certainly not worth buying the volume just for this one lead, not least because Roberts didn't typically due detailed primary source research on many of the families in his works, but largely relied on secondary sources.
>
> However, royal ancestry may not be present, at least as claimed. Certainly the line as given by Douglas Richardson in Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd ed. (2011), pp.322-3, which runs Ipsontes->Swinnerton->Holland. I'm not sure, but I suspect Gary Boyd Robert's brief account in RD500 relies at least in part on Richardson's PA. The connection between the Brereton and Ipstones families appears sound, as does the connection between the connection between Ipstones and Swinnerton. The problem is that, although there is probably some connection between the Swinnerton and Holland families, it is not as given in PA. Nat Taylor wrote an article on this, at at http://nltaylor.net/pdfs/a_Gresley.pdf. It's also worth noting that Boyer mentions that the Swinnertons descend from the Beck or Beke family, which in turn has a close connection to the Stafford family, but the exact nature of the Beke-Stafford connection is also unclear (see https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/oHoMF9NAQjg/m/S37ZMQLFfKoJ).
>
> Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist, Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you. Boyer also cites the Visitation of Cheshire, which I see you've already found, as well as Omerod's Cheshire, which has been published in at least two editions, frustrating my attempt to track down that citation. Boyer's book can be found here:
> https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1028677?availability=Family%20History%20Library
>
> I'm not sure if you can view either of these volumes if your IP address is based outside of the United States--if not, I can send you both off-list if you send me a private email.
>
> -Elizabeth A

Hello,

Many thanks for the links.

Since I am in the United States, they work. I have been looking through them. I have seen only one of Ormerod's Cheshire as well as the visitations. Apparently, the Bulkeleys are still not completely confirmed, and I have not seen proof that Catherine was a daughter of the William that is known to have been justice of Cheshire. There seems to be quite a lot of information on his family in the National Archives, but I don't know if there are any documents proving the marriage of his daughter to one of the Randall Breretons of Malpas.

A few years ago the identity of William's wife came up in a thread, and apparently, she was a half-Welsh woman, daughter of Gwilym ap Gruffudd of Penmynyth, and of his second English wife, Joan Stanley.

Gwilym's biography can be found at https://biography.wales/article/s1-GRIF-PEN-1300.

As far as Carrington's go, Boyer does list them, but it would help to proof that Emme was really sir John's daughter. I am not on clear as to why her two brothers who died with no children are said to have been succeeded by a cousin on their father's side and not by their Brereton nephews if Emme was their sister.

I am hoping to receive a copy of a file from the Spanish National Archives regarding an Englishman who settled in Biscaya and who claimed to be a descendant on his mother's side of the Breretons and Sandfords mentioned above, but in any case, it will not likely to add details on the Breretons.

J. Sardina

On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:23:29 -0800 (PST),
Elizabeth A <starwarsgeek8@gmail.com> wrote:

> Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval
> English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account
> cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de
> Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist,
> Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article
> through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on
> which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.

A nice thing about the current periodical bearing the name The Genealogist
is that you can order any back issue all the way back to the first one in
Spring, 1980, for $15, or any two issues for $25:

https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/subscribing-and-back-issues/

-- and, at least in my experience, they're prompt in fulfilling such
orders. I certainly felt I got my money's worth out of the Paul C. Reed
article mentioned above, which is a model of how to present highly
technical genealogical reasoning in an entertaining fashion.

--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
pnh@panix.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:20:26 PM UTC-5, p...@panix.com wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:23:29 -0800 (PST),
> Elizabeth A <starwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval
> > English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account
> > cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de
> > Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist,
> > Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article
> > through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on
> > which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.
> A nice thing about the current periodical bearing the name The Genealogist
> is that you can order any back issue all the way back to the first one in
> Spring, 1980, for $15, or any two issues for $25:
>
> https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/subscribing-and-back-issues/
>
> -- and, at least in my experience, they're prompt in fulfilling such
> orders. I certainly felt I got my money's worth out of the Paul C. Reed
> article mentioned above, which is a model of how to present highly
> technical genealogical reasoning in an entertaining fashion.
> --
> Patrick Nielsen Hayden
> p...@panix.com
> http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng

Hi everyone
I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I'm feeling I need a laugh, I read The Carington Imposture. It is a simply overwhelming massacre of the alleged line.
Nancy

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 6:07:38 PM UTC-5, guineapi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:20:26 PM UTC-5, p...@panix.com wrote:
> > On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:23:29 -0800 (PST),
> > Elizabeth A <starwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval
> > > English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account
> > > cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de
> > > Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist,
> > > Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article
> > > through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on
> > > which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.
> > A nice thing about the current periodical bearing the name The Genealogist
> > is that you can order any back issue all the way back to the first one in
> > Spring, 1980, for $15, or any two issues for $25:
> >
> > https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/subscribing-and-back-issues/
> >
> > -- and, at least in my experience, they're prompt in fulfilling such
> > orders. I certainly felt I got my money's worth out of the Paul C. Reed
> > article mentioned above, which is a model of how to present highly
> > technical genealogical reasoning in an entertaining fashion.
> > --
> > Patrick Nielsen Hayden
> > p...@panix.com
> > http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
> Hi everyone
> I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I'm feeling I need a laugh, I read The Carington Imposture. It is a simply overwhelming massacre of the alleged line.
> Nancy

Yes. It is quite definite in its conclusions, though i do not know how many of them are entirely certain. In any case, I read both works, and unfortunately, they did not serve to establish the identity of Emma Carrington, which is what i was trying to confirm. It is not clear how reliable the earlier part of the work on the older generations of the Carrington family might be, given what Round says about the rest of the work. If what it shows about the wives of the Carringtons, it is possible that Emma was a descendant of Warren and Ardene families.

J. Sardina

On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 9:46:26 AM UTC-5, J. Sardina wrote:
> On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 6:07:38 PM UTC-5, guineapi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:20:26 PM UTC-5, p...@panix.com wrote:
> > > On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:23:29 -0800 (PST),
> > > Elizabeth A <starwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval
> > > > English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account
> > > > cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de
> > > > Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist,
> > > > Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article
> > > > through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on
> > > > which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.
> > > A nice thing about the current periodical bearing the name The Genealogist
> > > is that you can order any back issue all the way back to the first one in
> > > Spring, 1980, for $15, or any two issues for $25:
> > >
> > > https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/subscribing-and-back-issues/
> > >
> > > -- and, at least in my experience, they're prompt in fulfilling such
> > > orders. I certainly felt I got my money's worth out of the Paul C. Reed
> > > article mentioned above, which is a model of how to present highly
> > > technical genealogical reasoning in an entertaining fashion.
> > > --
> > > Patrick Nielsen Hayden
> > > p...@panix.com
> > > http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
> > Hi everyone
> > I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I'm feeling I need a laugh, I read The Carington Imposture. It is a simply overwhelming massacre of the alleged line.
> > Nancy
> Yes. It is quite definite in its conclusions, though i do not know how many of them are entirely certain. In any case, I read both works, and unfortunately, they did not serve to establish the identity of Emma Carrington, which is what i was trying to confirm. It is not clear how reliable the earlier part of the work on the older generations of the Carrington family might be, given what Round says about the rest of the work. If what it shows about the wives of the Carringtons, it is possible that Emma was a descendant of Warren and Ardene families.
>
> J. Sardina

Note: It seems that Emma may have been a daughter of George Caryngton, not of sir John Caryngton, according to some pedigrees attached to a long lawsuit between the Breretons and others and the Caryngtons :

Catalogue description
Short title: Brereton v Caryngton. Plaintiffs: Uryan BRERETON, esquire, groom of the...

Reference: C 1/952/65-68
Description:
Short title: Brereton v Caryngton.

Plaintiffs: Uryan BRERETON, esquire, groom of the Privy Chamber, descendant and heir of George Caryngton.

Defendants: John CARYNGTON.

Subject: Manor of Carrington, messuages and land in Partington, and one-third of half the manor of Ashton-on-Mersey and of messuages, a mill and landin Kenworthy (in Northenden), Stockport, Hattersley, Wooley (in Hollingworth), and Mottram.

Pedigrees given. Cheshire

Date: 1538-1544
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

J. Sardina

On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 1:24:54 PM UTC-5, J. Sardina wrote:
> On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 9:46:26 AM UTC-5, J. Sardina wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 6:07:38 PM UTC-5, guineapi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:20:26 PM UTC-5, p...@panix.com wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:23:29 -0800 (PST),
> > > > Elizabeth A <starwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval
> > > > > English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account
> > > > > cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de
> > > > > Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist,
> > > > > Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article
> > > > > through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on
> > > > > which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.
> > > > A nice thing about the current periodical bearing the name The Genealogist
> > > > is that you can order any back issue all the way back to the first one in
> > > > Spring, 1980, for $15, or any two issues for $25:
> > > >
> > > > https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/subscribing-and-back-issues/
> > > >
> > > > -- and, at least in my experience, they're prompt in fulfilling such
> > > > orders. I certainly felt I got my money's worth out of the Paul C. Reed
> > > > article mentioned above, which is a model of how to present highly
> > > > technical genealogical reasoning in an entertaining fashion.
> > > > --
> > > > Patrick Nielsen Hayden
> > > > p...@panix.com
> > > > http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
> > > Hi everyone
> > > I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I'm feeling I need a laugh, I read The Carington Imposture. It is a simply overwhelming massacre of the alleged line.
> > > Nancy
> > Yes. It is quite definite in its conclusions, though i do not know how many of them are entirely certain. In any case, I read both works, and unfortunately, they did not serve to establish the identity of Emma Carrington, which is what i was trying to confirm. It is not clear how reliable the earlier part of the work on the older generations of the Carrington family might be, given what Round says about the rest of the work. If what it shows about the wives of the Carringtons, it is possible that Emma was a descendant of Warren and Ardene families.
> >
> > J. Sardina
> Note: It seems that Emma may have been a daughter of George Caryngton, not of sir John Caryngton, according to some pedigrees attached to a long lawsuit between the Breretons and others and the Caryngtons :
>
> Catalogue description
> Short title: Brereton v Caryngton. Plaintiffs: Uryan BRERETON, esquire, groom of the...
>
> Reference: C 1/952/65-68
> Description:
> Short title: Brereton v Caryngton.
>
> Plaintiffs: Uryan BRERETON, esquire, groom of the Privy Chamber, descendant and heir of George Caryngton.
>
> Defendants: John CARYNGTON.
>
> Subject: Manor of Carrington, messuages and land in Partington, and one-third of half the manor of Ashton-on-Mersey and of messuages, a mill and landin Kenworthy (in Northenden), Stockport, Hattersley, Wooley (in Hollingworth), and Mottram.
>
> Pedigrees given. Cheshire
>
> Date: 1538-1544
> Held by: The National Archives, Kew
> Legal status: Public Record(s)
> Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
>
> J. Sardina

Unless the George mentioned here is the father of sir John Caryngton and not his nephew of the same name.

The pedigrees in question should show the exact link.

J. Sardina

On 18/12/2021 18:24, J. Sardina wrote:
> a mill and landin Kenworthy
It may be useful to know that an alternative spelling for Kenworthy
(which has more or less disappeared under a road junction on the M60) is
Kennerly. The two can be interchangeable as place name and surname.

On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 4:38:43 PM UTC-5, Ian Goddard wrote:
> On 18/12/2021 18:24, J. Sardina wrote:
> > a mill and landin Kenworthy
> It may be useful to know that an alternative spelling for Kenworthy
> (which has more or less disappeared under a road junction on the M60) is
> Kennerly. The two can be interchangeable as place name and surname.

I am not sure if there will information regarding how each of those properties came into the hands of the Caryngtons, which
I am assuming tookplaceearlier than, or with their common ancestor, which seems to be sir George Caryngton.

http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/Cheshire/Northenden/53283644b47fc4085600119f-Kenworthy

I wonder how this manor came up to be divided in a way that the Caryngtons inherited or adquired exactly:
"one-third of half the manor of Ashton-on-Mersey."

J. Sardina

On 19/12/2021 02:54, J. Sardina wrote:
> I wonder how this manor came up to be divided in a way that the Caryngtons inherited or adquired exactly:
> "one-third of half the manor of Ashton-on-Mersey."

Oddly enough I was thinking about a similar thing this morning,
remembering being told about a one sixth of an advowson. I came to the
conclusion that it could well have been the result of inheritance
through daughters were there was no male heir.

In that particular instance, although I'd need to go back over the whole
circumstances to see if was relevant, I know there was a division of
property between two sisters at one stage. A further split between tree
sisters in a later generation could have produced a one-sixth.

Something along those lines could have happened to the manor.

If anyone is interested, I have started a WikiTree project page and would like to share my latest findings with you. I encourage peer review and open collaboration.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:DNA_Group_R-M269-9

I am sure some of you will find some of the details of my content rather interesting. It's worth a careful read.

Thank you.

On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 3:46:26 PM UTC+1, J. Sardina wrote:
> On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 6:07:38 PM UTC-5, guineapi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:20:26 PM UTC-5, p...@panix.com wrote:
> > > On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:23:29 -0800 (PST),
> > > Elizabeth A <starwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Randle Brereton and Emma Carrington are also mentioned in "Medieval
> > > > English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. Boyer's account
> > > > cites Paul C. Reed's excellent article, "Another Look at Joan de
> > > > Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?" in The Genealogist,
> > > > Volume 10, pp.35-72. Frustratingly, I once ordered this article
> > > > through interlibrary loan, but I've lost access to the device on
> > > > which I kept those old files, so I don't have a copy for you.
> > > A nice thing about the current periodical bearing the name The Genealogist
> > > is that you can order any back issue all the way back to the first one in
> > > Spring, 1980, for $15, or any two issues for $25:
> > >
> > > https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/subscribing-and-back-issues/
> > >
> > > -- and, at least in my experience, they're prompt in fulfilling such
> > > orders. I certainly felt I got my money's worth out of the Paul C. Reed
> > > article mentioned above, which is a model of how to present highly
> > > technical genealogical reasoning in an entertaining fashion.
> > > --
> > > Patrick Nielsen Hayden
> > > p...@panix.com
> > > http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
> > Hi everyone
> > I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I'm feeling I need a laugh, I read The Carington Imposture. It is a simply overwhelming massacre of the alleged line.
> > Nancy
> Yes. It is quite definite in its conclusions, though i do not know how many of them are entirely certain. In any case, I read both works, and unfortunately, they did not serve to establish the identity of Emma Carrington, which is what i was trying to confirm. It is not clear how reliable the earlier part of the work on the older generations of the Carrington family might be, given what Round says about the rest of the work. If what it shows about the wives of the Carringtons, it is possible that Emma was a descendant of Warren and Ardene families.
>
> J. Sardina

Yes it might have been better to start a different thread. (Not that this is a big issue of course, but I wonder if things will get confusing.) I would say that Round was not careful at all about what he said concerning earlier generations of the Smyths either. But obviously this was not his focus.

Concerning the Carrington imposture the biggest point he was making (at least looking at the medieval end) was about the supposed Carrington who turned himself into a Smyth. And I think his arguments for dismissing that story are very strong indeed.

As someone who has worked on them I believe the Smyth family involved are a quite interesting one, and a lot more can probably be said about them. I have posted some notes on Wikitree https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Smyth-471. I have never really looked at the real Carrington family. I think it is a good thing if we can move on and study these two families again now that we know they were not one family.

(OTOH, as can be seen on the Wikitree page there is a recent note which shows that not everyone accepts this.)

On Monday, December 20, 2021 at 4:32:45 PM UTC+1, Chris Smith wrote:
> If anyone is interested, I have started a WikiTree project page and would like to share my latest findings with you. I encourage peer review and open collaboration.
>
> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:DNA_Group_R-M269-9
>
> I am sure some of you will find some of the details of my content rather interesting. It's worth a careful read.
>
> Thank you.

Hi Christopher. It would indeed be great if you could prove a connection between those various American Smiths who apparently share a Y DNA match, and the Essex/London Smiths of Blackmore etc. However, I looked at your Wikitree project and I did not yet spot which evidence this idea is based on. As it is a long page, I would suggest pasting the evidence for this proposal right at the top. Do you have matches from England for example, or have you discovered American documents which push the line back further?

Hey Andrew,

To summarize, I have found that my dad and a number of our cousins who descend from my Smiths of Salt Creek Twp, Jackson Co, IN share autosomal DNA on Cr7 with two women who are 2nd cousins related via half-siblings who share a common Smith ancestor whose family was from the Ongar, Essex area in the 18th century. They have no ancestry in North America.

Further I find this same segment on Cr7 brings me into proximity other Smith populations to which I am yDNA matched. These are the Smiths of Washington Co, VA, Scott and Campbell Co, TN c. 1860.

Please see this blog posting of mine for the details:
https://smithgenealogy.wordpress.com/2021/08/04/exploring-my-dna-matches-possible-smith-connections-to-campbell-and-scott-cos-tn-and-possibly-to-england/

Further, I think it important to understand that I have a very credible yDNA match to the male line of Hervey Walter de Clare, as mentioned on my WikiTree project page. The pedigree of my match has been autosomally verified as well, back to 15 generations. I will not share their identity for privacy reasons. This was able to be accomplished as many relevant people have taken autosomal DNA tests with the large commercial companies and they descend from families that have impeccable records going back quite a ways, many of which are also academically scrutinized public record.

I am a Smith in North America who is yDNA matched to the line of Rollo. There is only one Smith line that would fit this profile: the Carrington Smiths of Rivenhall. The fact that it is well understood that Smiths of Blackmore settled in colonial era Virginia along the James River is surely the clue to how this could happen, and this hypothesis is supported by my group's autosomal triangulation with descendants of Josiah Smith who married Elizabeth Collier. Josiah Smith was a grandson of Nicholas Smith who married Mary Flood. This Smith family, based on paper trail records, is a good candidate for being descended from the Smiths of Blackmore. (We do know a Thomas Smith of Blackmore existed in Virginia, but he does not have a will that has survived into modern day so we are unable to be 100% sure of who his children were). There are currently three candidate immigrant ancestors from Blackmore: Thomas and Arthur who are said to have been brothers, and a Nicholas Smith who is suggested to have been a son of a Capt. Stephen Smith of Blackmore. These individuals are on my plate to dig into thoroughly, but other matters have had my attention in the recent months.

There was a Nicholas Smith (different, I believe from the previously mentioned one), Josiah's grandfather, who lived on Fountains Creek in Brunswick Co, VA (c. 1720) and this is from where we also find a Henry Smith of 1810 Knox Co, KY originated, near Fort Christian. Henry knew a KY Militia Col. Elisha Smith (an attorney and statesmen), a son of KY Militia Gen. William Smith who was a "neighbor" to my 4th great-grandfather Isaac Smith in Rockcastle Co, KY in 1810. It is among the descendants of Isaac do we find the relevant autosomal DNA that links them to the two aforementioned 2nd cousins who have no ancestry in North America.

As far as Round's arguments go, I find no one in the records before him that disputed John Smith, Esq's descent from Sir Michael of Carrington. The Heralds themselves declared this fact at the funerals of Smith men descended from John Smith, Esq.

I find it interesting that it is the integrity behind the use of the authority of the state that comes into question in this genealogical inquest. I think that is healthy, but it is the crux of Round's arguments that the Heralds were corrupt. I believe that to be highly unlikely in this case, as are many other of Round's arguments (i.e. Sir Michael of Carrington never existed or that Hamo de Mascey and Hamo of Carrington were the same person). That said, I do have some outstanding questions about the pedigree retrieved from the charter chest of the Nevilles of Holt, but nothing that defeats my hypothesis.

I am a Smith male who has yDNA matched to the male line of Rollo. Yes, this yDNA information exists in one of the databases of one of the commercial DNA testing companies. The funny thing is, there is so much nonsense on the internet about this subject that my science based research is drowned out by the noise of loud, poor quality researchers and trolls. The 12/12 yDNA match is sufficient to provide 90% confidence that my Smith line and the Butler family to which I match share a common ancestor on the male line around 48 generations ago. This fits well for a possible Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) to be around the time of the Dukes of Normandy (800 CE).

I've not gone public with this information before as I had not received a proper blessing from my match's family to include their family's information in my postings. Fortunately, I recently was given the green-light to begin discussing the details publicly as my research has progressed to the point that it is immediately relevant to my findings. I've been doing my personal research largely without the use of this yDNA info, but it becomes relevant when we look at my Smith male population as a whole.

Feel free to browse the rest of my blog. It is a work in progress, but I've tried to tidy up as best I can. I have no objections for my work to be peer reviewed as necessary.

Thanks for reading!

Chris Smith
https://smithgenealogy.wordpress.com

Copyright Christopher Smith - 2021

Correction... Nicholas Smith married an Elizabeth Flood, not a Mary Flood.