Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Make headway at work. Continue to let things deteriorate at home.


interests / soc.genealogy.medieval / Alleged second wife of John de Cherleton, 2nd Lord Cherleton of Powis

SubjectAuthor
o Alleged second wife of John de Cherleton, 2nd Lord Cherleton of PowisMichael Cayley

1
Alleged second wife of John de Cherleton, 2nd Lord Cherleton of Powis

<f95dcc7c-9d3c-4e30-b97d-d965f3093098n@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3587&group=soc.genealogy.medieval#3587

  copy link   Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:5dc1:: with SMTP id m1mr3528444qvh.26.1639654013869;
Thu, 16 Dec 2021 03:26:53 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a37:8d86:: with SMTP id p128mr11677471qkd.706.1639654013663;
Thu, 16 Dec 2021 03:26:53 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 03:26:53 -0800 (PST)
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2a00:23c5:1717:c300:bd6e:82e3:397d:d1d0;
posting-account=gYkLWwoAAABKkEsSJe0pW2FRoGwGQGRZ
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2a00:23c5:1717:c300:bd6e:82e3:397d:d1d0
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <f95dcc7c-9d3c-4e30-b97d-d965f3093098n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Alleged second wife of John de Cherleton, 2nd Lord Cherleton of Powis
From: michaelc...@gmail.com (Michael Cayley)
Injection-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 11:26:53 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 52
 by: Michael Cayley - Thu, 16 Dec 2021 11:26 UTC

First, my apologies if this has been raised here before.

Douglas Richardson suggests that John de Cherleton, husband of Maud de Mortimer (daughter of Roger de Mortimer and Joan de Geneville) married twice, his second wife being Avice, origins unknown. He says that John de Cherleton and Avice married before 1346-7 (Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, Vol. I, p. 425). I have doubts about this second marriage. Maud was alive in 1345 according to both Richardson and Cokayne (Complete Peerage, revised edition, Vol. III, pp. 160-1, https://archive.org/details/completepeerageo03coka/page/160/mode/2up). So if Richardson is right, Maud would have died in 1345 or 1346.

The suggestion that John de Cherleton married a second time appears to be based on a record of 20 Edward III (1346-7) of a grant of a messuage in Welshpool by "John de Cherleton and Avice his wife". National Archives, ref. C 143/280/13, https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7574454 and Public Record Office Lists and Indices vol. 22, ''List of Inquisitions ad Quod Damnum'', Part 2, HMSO, 1906, reissued by Kraus Reprint Corporation, 1963, p. 420, entry 13, https://archive.org/details/listofinquisitio222newy/page/420/mode/2up Internet Archive.

There is no mention of John de Cherleton having a second marriage to an Avice in Cokayne.

John's father and namesake (whom I hereafter refer to as "John senior"), who died in 1353, did marry Hawise/Avice, described by Cokayne as "sister and h. (1309) of Griffin ap Owen, otherwise de la Pole, only da. of Owen ap Griffith, Prince of Upper Powys, by Joan, da. of Sir Robert Corbet, of Moreton Corbet, co. Salop." The National Archives have a number of catalogue entries for records mentioning John senior and Hawise. They include

- SC 8/201/10001, reacting to a lawsuit starting in 1328, https://discovery..nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9333557

- SC 8/207/10310, which mentions Hawise [de Cherleton (Charlton)], wife of John de Cherleton, appointed Justiciar of Ireland (a position John senior held) and John de Cherleton (Charlton), son of John de Cherleton - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9333866

- C 143/256/9 (15 Edward III, 1341-2), where John and Avice his wife are named as entitled to the remainder of the manor of Plas Dinas, https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7573944. Cokayne and Richardson both say that Maud de Mortimer was alive in 1345, and if that is right, this document cannot refer to a second wife of Maud's husband.

It seems to me likely that the John de Cherleton and Avice referred to in the 1346-7 record were John senior and his wife, and that this document does not give evidence of Maud de Mortimer's husband remarrying.

Does anyone know of any other record which supports Richardson's view that Maud's husband had a second wife called Avice whom he married before 1346-7?

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.8
clearnet tor