On 7/14/2021 2:34 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/14/2021 10:34 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/13/2021 5:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> Nahh. The damned thing has some piece of crap Microsoft electronic
>>> device built into it that makes it decide not to start at random
>>> intervals. Solution is to fish under the dash, pull a fuse, wait a
>>> minute, put the fuse back. And of course it won't run if I just pull
>>> the fuse out and leave it out.
>>>
>>> That's why I'm getting rid of it at my earliest convenience.
>>
>> I'll try not to get started on a car rant again, but stuff like that
>> is my reasoning for driving 90's and back vehicles. I like the old
>> stuff without computers and touch screens!
>
> You have to go back to the 70's to avoid computers.
>
> I will take the computers any day.
>
> In 1980 Oldsmobile introduced the ECM. Suddenly V6 engines were out
> performing v8's and getting better gas mileage.

I didn't mean ignition control computers. I meant the crazy touch
screen every-single-simple-manual-control-is-microprocessor-controlled
madness. I like manual HVAC controls (you can feel the levers operate
as you pull/push switches), manual windows, throttle cable (not wire),
manual everything. Electronic spark control (or "ECM" more recently) is
fine.

On 7/14/2021 7:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:34:08 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/13/2021 5:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> Nahh. The damned thing has some piece of crap Microsoft electronic
>>> device built into it that makes it decide not to start at random
>>> intervals. Solution is to fish under the dash, pull a fuse, wait a
>>> minute, put the fuse back. And of course it won't run if I just pull
>>> the fuse out and leave it out.
>>>
>>> That's why I'm getting rid of it at my earliest convenience.
>>
>> I'll try not to get started on a car rant again, but stuff like that is
>> my reasoning for driving 90's and back vehicles. I like the old stuff
>> without computers and touch screens!
>
> In my case it worked out to a "free" commute--the payments on a used
> plug-in were less than the cost of gas for the Jeep. To tell you the
> truth though, when the thing is behaving it's nice enough that I'm
> seriously thinking about plonking down the cash for a Tesla.

My friend has a mid 2000's Jeep with a V8 that gets 8 MPG in town. If
you drive a car like that, yes, I can see how it would save you money.

Me, I'm content with driving my tin can early 90's Geo Metro, and
average 48 MPG (city AND highway) on every tank. I get over 50 MPG when
it's all highway. Yes, ECM controlled, but everything else is manual -
nary another computer or microprocessor to be found.

Pay $500 for the car in one go, and you're set. I get better or equal
gas mileage to hybrid like the Prius. My entire car costs less than the
dealer charges to replace a head light assembly on a Prius.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:18:33 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/14/2021 7:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:34:08 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/13/2021 5:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> Nahh. The damned thing has some piece of crap Microsoft electronic
>>>> device built into it that makes it decide not to start at random
>>>> intervals. Solution is to fish under the dash, pull a fuse, wait a
>>>> minute, put the fuse back. And of course it won't run if I just pull
>>>> the fuse out and leave it out.
>>>>
>>>> That's why I'm getting rid of it at my earliest convenience.
>>>
>>> I'll try not to get started on a car rant again, but stuff like that is
>>> my reasoning for driving 90's and back vehicles. I like the old stuff
>>> without computers and touch screens!
>>
>> In my case it worked out to a "free" commute--the payments on a used
>> plug-in were less than the cost of gas for the Jeep. To tell you the
>> truth though, when the thing is behaving it's nice enough that I'm
>> seriously thinking about plonking down the cash for a Tesla.
>
>My friend has a mid 2000's Jeep with a V8 that gets 8 MPG in town. If
>you drive a car like that, yes, I can see how it would save you money.
>
>Me, I'm content with driving my tin can early 90's Geo Metro, and
>average 48 MPG (city AND highway) on every tank. I get over 50 MPG when
>it's all highway. Yes, ECM controlled, but everything else is manual -
>nary another computer or microprocessor to be found.
>
>Pay $500 for the car in one go, and you're set. I get better or equal
>gas mileage to hybrid like the Prius. My entire car costs less than the
>dealer charges to replace a head light assembly on a Prius.

I forgot the part about where I get to charge it at work on the boss's
dime.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:14:08 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/14/2021 2:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 10:34 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/13/2021 5:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> Nahh. The damned thing has some piece of crap Microsoft electronic
>>>> device built into it that makes it decide not to start at random
>>>> intervals. Solution is to fish under the dash, pull a fuse, wait a
>>>> minute, put the fuse back. And of course it won't run if I just pull
>>>> the fuse out and leave it out.
>>>>
>>>> That's why I'm getting rid of it at my earliest convenience.
>>>
>>> I'll try not to get started on a car rant again, but stuff like that
>>> is my reasoning for driving 90's and back vehicles. I like the old
>>> stuff without computers and touch screens!
>>
>> You have to go back to the 70's to avoid computers.
>>
>> I will take the computers any day.
>>
>> In 1980 Oldsmobile introduced the ECM. Suddenly V6 engines were out
>> performing v8's and getting better gas mileage.
>
>I didn't mean ignition control computers. I meant the crazy touch
>screen every-single-simple-manual-control-is-microprocessor-controlled
>madness.

The thing is, once the computer and touch-screen are there, letting
them control everything saves hardware cost. And the programmming can
be done by below-US-minimum-wage labor in India, so it's to the
benefit of the manufacturer to do it that way.

>I like manual HVAC controls (you can feel the levers operate
>as you pull/push switches), manual windows, throttle cable (not wire),
>manual everything. Electronic spark control (or "ECM" more recently) is
>fine.

The thing is the goverment is now requiring electronically controlled
braking and electronic stability control among other things.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:07:57 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> "Start/Stop" is no more. For some reason customers didn't like their
>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>
>
>I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>to wear out? What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
>to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
>on their horns. No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.

The starters are beefed up to handle the load. The real issue is the
engine bearings--I don't think they have a real fix for that.

On 7/15/2021 2:05 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/14/2021 8:05 PM, Leon wrote:
>> If you depress the brake petal the engine will start.  Just like a
>> vehicle with a keyed ignition switch.
>
>
> Do you have to depress the brake to start a modern key'd car?  I've
> driven some where the brake must be applied to shift out of park, but
> never to start it.

IIRC my Tundra was like that but I may have forgotten. IIRC also all
require the pedal to be depressed to move out of Park.

On 7/14/2021 9:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
Snip

>
> No, "Start/Stop" is where the engine shuts off at stoplights and
> restarts when you press on the accelerator.

Actually on my F150, if YOU stop the vehicle you simply take your foot
off of the brake pedal to restart the engine, that is with normal
start/stop operation.

If you are using adaptive cruise control and the vehicle stops on it's
own and shuts down the engine, you restart by pressing the accelerator
pedal and that also releases the brake.

>
>> How do you get in and out of ACC mode in her car? You know, to listen to the radio
>> without the engine running.
>
> Actually, I don't know. She doesn't let me drive it. ;-)
>>
>>>> How do you get out of ACC mode? You push the Start/Stop button again, which puts the
>>>> van in Run mode (lamp test runs, relays click and clack, HVAC comes on, etc.) then press
>>>> it again to shut the van off.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe all Push To Start vehicles act like that. This is my first one.
>>> Fortunately they were a bad idea that went where all bad ideas went.
>>> It was a PITA to design to, also.
>>
>> Aren't almost all newer cars Push To Start? *What* went where all bad ideas went?
>
> "Start/Stop" is no more. For some reason customers didn't like their
> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>

2019 F150 has engine stop/start but that can be over ridden after every
engine start using the start button.

And the engine does not shut down at every stop light. It all seems to
depend on the load on the battery. If your AC is working to keep the
temp cool, it will not shut down. And by the same token if the engine
does shut down and the interior temp changes the engine will
automatically restart whether you are ready to proceed or not.

On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 10:41:39 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:49:20 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 4:51:36 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:00:23 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 12:06:17 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 07:13:46 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> >> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 6:07:29 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> >> >> On Mon, 12 Jul 2021 21:11:24 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> >> >> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 11:43:09 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 12 Jul 2021 18:01:26 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> >> >> >> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 7:19:10 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 11 Jul 2021 21:46:06 -0400, ads wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >On Sun, 11 Jul 2021 16:23:44 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> >> >> >> >> >> ><teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >>Over the past 4 generations of the Honda Odyssey, the floor has been
> >> >> >> >> >> >>getting more and more bumpy and unlevel. It gets harder to load stuff
> >> >> >> >> >> >>with each new 5 year cycle. This is the interior of my 2017 EX-L, with the
> >> >> >> >> >> >>rear bench stowed in the floor and the 2nd row seats removed.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>It's hard to tell from the pictures, but the floor behind the front seats is
> >> >> >> >> >> >>5" lower than the rear of the cargo area. It's not sloped either - it's
> >> >> >> >> >> >>stepped. First there's a 3.5" drop, then another 1.5" - It's a real pain to
> >> >> >> >> >> >>load compared to the 2 previous generations which were at least flat
> >> >> >> >> >> >>front to rear.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>Looking towards the rear:
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>https://i.imgur.com/MckLWvF.jpg
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>Looking towards the front:
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>https://i.imgur.com/2OFiPPN.jpg
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>The 2018's and beyond are even worse.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>This is what built for my 17...
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>The rear platform will stay in the Ody 99.99% of the time (roughly). We
> >> >> >> >> >> >>rarely ever use the 3rd row split bench, which stows in the floor. In this
> >> >> >> >> >> >>picture, the 2nd row seats are in,
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>https://i.imgur.com/pZUiomv.jpg
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>I left room for side wall protection when needed.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>https://i.imgur.com/ETiTWdv.jpg
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>I made an opening for the rear heat duct that's in the floor.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>https://i.imgur.com/tT70FYq.jpg
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>This front platform can be dropped into place when the 2nd row seats
> >> >> >> >> >> >>are removed.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>https://i.imgur.com/P6GYd56.jpg
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>As for the infamous carpeted 2 x 4's, the one on the right was the first
> >> >> >> >> >> >>of six, the one on the left was the last. Practice helps.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>https://i.imgur.com/7f0S3By.jpg
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >I've always described that vehicle as "The Honda Hearse" which seemed
> >> >> >> >> >> >especially appropriate for the black versions. You just made that use
> >> >> >> >> >> >possible ;-)
> >> >> >> >> >> When we were designing some of the cabin electronics, it was known as
> >> >> >> >> >> the Honda Oddity.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >So I can blame you for the weird shit that my infotainment system does?
> >> >> >> >> Only the audio.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Be more specific. Audio as in sound only or audio as in the song info and other stuff
> >> >> >that appears on the screen when the audio is playing?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> The hardware that makes noise. Audio amplifiers, specifically. Some
> >> >> >> of the other guys did the radios, I think. The center stack, screen
> >> >> >> and stuff, was done by a different company.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Well, then you are off my sh*t list, for now. ;-)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Can you find the guy that coded this "feature" and smack him upside
> >> >> >the head for me?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Audio Source: Bluetooth, upper screen displays the song info:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >https://i.imgur.com/XEW6MmK.jpg
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Activate the right turn signal and the upper screen displays the side camera image:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >https://i.imgur.com/0Bk4lbQ.jpg
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When the turn signal turns off, the upper screen displays a *different* song info
> >> >> >screen, showing the song title twice. It then flashes the song title that's in the lower
> >> >> >box. Once per second for about 20 seconds. After that, it returns to the original
> >> >> >song info screen:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >https://i.imgur.com/8gnPeIM.jpg
> >> >> >
> >> >> >https://i.imgur.com/eR9tpj8.jpg
> >> >> >
> >> >> >What possible purpose could that serve?
> >> >> >
> >> >> Does it ever get back to the original state (full screen)?
> >> >
> >> >Yes, like I said, after the 20 seconds of flashing the song title, it goes back to the
> >> >"normal" song info screen.
> >> >
> >> >> It is odd behavior.
> >> >
> >> >Sure is. There are other functions that change what is displayed on the upper
> >> >screen, like making a phone call, and they all cause the flashing song title behavior.
> >> >
> >> >> It looks like a selection panel with nothing to select.
> >> >
> >> >The upper screen is all display. The touchscreen for the audio system is down below.
> >> >
> >> >More fun stuff:
> >> >
> >> >When you get a text on your smartphone, you get a message on the upper screen that
> >> >tells you who it's from and you can have the audio system read it to you. That's fine.
> >> >
> >> >However, when you *send* a text, you get the same "From" message and the
> >> >same option to have it read. e.g. if I send a text to Kevin, the screen will tell me
> >> >that I *received* a text from Kevin and ask me if I want it read. It doesn't go away
> >> >until you choose Ignore, which requires a dial turn to select Ignore and then
> >> >a button press.
> >> Meanwhile you drive into a tree.
> >> >Have you ever parked, wanted to turn off the engine but continue listening to what's
> >> >playing on the audio system? You have to leave the van in gear and press the Start/Stop
> >> >button. The engine will shut off and the audio system will stay on (ACC mode). Now you
> >> >can put the van in Park...if you remember. ;-)
> >> I hate start/stop. I rented a car with S/S and it just about drove me
> >> crazy. I'd never buy one. There should be a way to disable it. I
> >> sure wouldn't buy one. SWMBO has a push-to-start but it just acts
> >> like a key (with the dongle in her purse).
> >
> >Are we talking about the same thing? I am talking about Push To Start. The button is
> >is a Start/Stop button. *Sort of* acts like a key with the fob nearby.
> >
> >https://i.imgur.com/2SunVXR.jpg
> No, "Start/Stop" is where the engine shuts off at stoplights and
> restarts when you press on the accelerator.

DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> writes:
>On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 6:41:07 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> writes:
>> >On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 4:51:36 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>> >> >
>> >> >Maybe all Push To Start vehicles act like that. This is my first one.
>> >> Fortunately they were a bad idea that went where all bad ideas went.
>> >> It was a PITA to design to, also.
>> >
>> >Aren't almost all newer cars Push To Start? *What* went where all bad ideas went?
>> Well, I used to push my '67 dodge pickup to start it, so long as I remembered
>> to park facing downslope.
>>
>> However, the dash mounted 'push/stop' buttons just trigger a series of
>> functions in the EC; mine works flawlessly.
>
>I agree.
>
>Question: How do you get in and out of ACC mode?

Tap it thrice in sequence. You need to tap and hold to start.

Tap it again to shut off.

Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com> writes:
>On 7/14/2021 8:05 PM, Leon wrote:
>> If you depress the brake petal the engine will start. Just like a
>> vehicle with a keyed ignition switch.
>
>
>Do you have to depress the brake to start a modern key'd car? I've
>driven some where the brake must be applied to shift out of park, but
>never to start it.

I have to press the clutch to start my chevy colorado (2016, physical key).

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:14:39 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> writes:
> >On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 6:41:07 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >> DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> writes:
> >> >On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 4:51:36 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Maybe all Push To Start vehicles act like that. This is my first one.
> >> >> Fortunately they were a bad idea that went where all bad ideas went.
> >> >> It was a PITA to design to, also.
> >> >
> >> >Aren't almost all newer cars Push To Start? *What* went where all bad ideas went?
> >> Well, I used to push my '67 dodge pickup to start it, so long as I remembered
> >> to park facing downslope.
> >>
> >> However, the dash mounted 'push/stop' buttons just trigger a series of
> >> functions in the EC; mine works flawlessly.
> >
> >I agree.
> >
> >Question: How do you get in and out of ACC mode?
> Tap it thrice in sequence. You need to tap and hold to start.
>
> Tap it again to shut off.

Once in ACC, does your vehicle go into Run mode when you tap
to get out of ACC? And then you have to tap again to get out of
Run mode?

Mine does. All the gauges move, the HVAC comes on, the lamp
test runs, etc.

That's what I don't like.

On 7/15/2021 2:07 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> "Start/Stop" is no more.  For some reason customers didn't like their
>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>
>
> I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
> in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
> to wear out?  What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
> to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
> on their horns.  No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.

These vehicles have HD starters and upgraded batteries.

As far as it failing, no more likely than any vehicle simply stalling
and causing issues.

You are over thinking it.

FWIW I don't care for the start stop feature at all but you get used to it.

On 7/15/2021 4:23 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:07:57 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> "Start/Stop" is no more. For some reason customers didn't like their
>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>
>>
>> I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>> in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>> to wear out? What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
>> to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
>> on their horns. No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.
>
> The starters are beefed up to handle the load. The real issue is the
> engine bearings--I don't think they have a real fix for that.
>

A non issue. An engine has to set for quite some time before the oil
will wash off of the bearings. Additionally the oil pumps are beefed
up. My oil gauge indicates normal pressure instantaneously with start
up. The oil is already every where in the engine and does not have to
be redistributed.

On 7/15/2021 2:00 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/14/2021 1:00 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> Have you ever parked, wanted to turn off the engine but continue
>> listening to what's
>> playing on the audio system? You have to leave the van in gear and
>> press the Start/Stop
>> button. The engine will shut off and the audio system will stay on
>> (ACC mode). Now you
>> can put the van in Park...if you remember.;-)
>>
>> How do you get out of ACC mode? You push the Start/Stop button again,
>> which puts the
>> van in Run mode (lamp test runs, relays click and clack, HVAC comes
>> on, etc.) then press
>> it again to shut the van off.
>>
>> Maybe all Push To Start vehicles act like that. This is my first one.
>>
>> I hate it because it's putting extra wear and tear on systems. I
>> always let it come
>> to steady state in Run mode because I don't want to turn it off midway
>> through
>> it's "start-up procedure". PITA just to use the ACC mode.
>>
>> That's just some of the weird stuff that the infotainment system does.
>> Terrible
>> design, coding, etc.
>
>
> That's awful... I can cut the ignition key and throw the shifter into
> neutral, and roll to a stop in a parking lot.  Throw it back in gear,
> and engage parking brake (if it works)... key out, and get moving.  Key
> can come out sooner if you're stopping in a straight line (wheel locks
> up with the key out).
>
> Thank God for my simple cars; I'd lose my mind with all of that madness.
>  I get irritated enough hopping back into an automatic transmission car
> that has to be in "PARK" to remove the key, or "NEUTRAL" to start. Radio
> cuts off when you cut the key off; on when the key is on.  Nice and simple!

HOW OLD are YOU?

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:26:12 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 2:07 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> "Start/Stop" is no more.  For some reason customers didn't like their
>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>
>>
>> I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>> in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>> to wear out?  What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
>> to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
>> on their horns.  No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.
>
>These vehicles have HD starters and upgraded batteries.
>
>As far as it failing, no more likely than any vehicle simply stalling
>and causing issues.
>
>You are over thinking it.
>
>FWIW I don't care for the start stop feature at all but you get used to it.

With as little as I drive now the battery is not charged enough for
the stop/start to work.

On 7/15/2021 2:14 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/14/2021 2:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 10:34 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/13/2021 5:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> Nahh.  The damned thing has some piece of crap Microsoft electronic
>>>> device built into it that makes it decide not to start at random
>>>> intervals.  Solution is to fish under the dash, pull a fuse, wait a
>>>> minute, put the fuse back.  And of course it won't run if I just pull
>>>> the fuse out and leave it out.
>>>>
>>>> That's why I'm getting rid of it at my earliest convenience.
>>>
>>> I'll try not to get started on a car rant again, but stuff like that
>>> is my reasoning for driving 90's and back vehicles.  I like the old
>>> stuff without computers and touch screens!
>>
>> You have to go back to the 70's to avoid computers.
>>
>> I will take the computers any day.
>>
>> In 1980 Oldsmobile introduced the ECM. Suddenly V6 engines were out
>> performing v8's and getting better gas mileage.
>
> I didn't mean ignition control computers.  I meant the crazy touch
> screen every-single-simple-manual-control-is-microprocessor-controlled
> madness.  I like manual HVAC controls (you can feel the levers operate
> as you pull/push switches), manual windows, throttle cable (not wire),
> manual everything.  Electronic spark control (or "ECM" more recently) is
> fine.

Sorry, when you said computers and touch screens I assumed you knew that
the touch screen was not the only computer in a vehicle.

Regardless nearly all electrical components, window regulator motors,
door lock actuators, AC controllers to name a few all have a chip of
some sort.

Having been the service manager at an Olds dealership I can assure you
that manual lever actuated controls had their issues too.

So in the 80's GM's "ECM" was short for Electronic Control Module. That
computer monitored every electrical function, including simple lighting.
If your vehicle has a catalytic converter, most likely you have some
type of processor to measure O2.

If you have a vehicle built since 1980 you have electronics that you
probably had no clue that they were there.

On 7/15/2021 9:40 AM, Markem618 wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:26:12 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/15/2021 2:07 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> "Start/Stop" is no more.  For some reason customers didn't like their
>>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>>
>>>
>>> I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>>> in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>>> to wear out?  What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
>>> to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
>>> on their horns.  No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.
>>
>> These vehicles have HD starters and upgraded batteries.
>>
>> As far as it failing, no more likely than any vehicle simply stalling
>> and causing issues.
>>
>> You are over thinking it.
>>
>> FWIW I don't care for the start stop feature at all but you get used to it.
>
> With as little as I drive now the battery is not charged enough for
> the stop/start to work.
>

IF the battery is below a certain charge/voltage the engine does not stop.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:53:08 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 9:40 AM, Markem618 wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:26:12 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/15/2021 2:07 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> "Start/Stop" is no more.  For some reason customers didn't like their
>>>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>>>> in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>>>> to wear out?  What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
>>>> to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
>>>> on their horns.  No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.
>>>
>>> These vehicles have HD starters and upgraded batteries.
>>>
>>> As far as it failing, no more likely than any vehicle simply stalling
>>> and causing issues.
>>>
>>> You are over thinking it.
>>>
>>> FWIW I don't care for the start stop feature at all but you get used to it.
>>
>> With as little as I drive now the battery is not charged enough for
>> the stop/start to work.
>>
>
>
>IF the battery is below a certain charge/voltage the engine does not stop.

Yes I learn the tolerance on the Ranger was 73% was the charge level
needed for the Auto Stop/Start to work on it. Do not know what the
charge level needed for the F 150 that replaced the Ranger.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:05:41 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/14/2021 8:05 PM, Leon wrote:
>> If you depress the brake petal the engine will start. Just like a
>> vehicle with a keyed ignition switch.
>
>
>Do you have to depress the brake to start a modern key'd car? I've
>driven some where the brake must be applied to shift out of park, but
>never to start it.

Mine won't start without a foot on the brake. I can switch it to ACC
but it won't start.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:04:19 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/14/2021 6:41 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Well, I used to push my '67 dodge pickup to start it, so long as I remembered
>> to park facing downslope.
>
>HAHA, that's a good one. I've gone 3 months on a battery that was bad
>enough that it had to be push started every time.

With my Gremlin, it was the starter, or more precisely the ring gear.
It made it more like a roulette wheel. If it came up green, it would
do is grind another pound of ring gear. I had to push the car far
enough to expose the red or black teeth to go anywhere.
>
>I have a push-button start car now... the key in my '93 Metro doesn't do
>anything when you turn it all the way, so you have to push this fancy
>button hacked into the dash board to kick the ignition solenoid on.
>Don't bump it when the engine's running, or you'll shear the teeth off
>of the flywheel -- or the gears off of the starter - maybe both.

That's another nice thing electronics buys. No more starting when
it's already running. ;-)

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:07:57 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> "Start/Stop" is no more. For some reason customers didn't like their
>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>
>
>I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>to wear out? What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
>to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
>on their horns. No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.

You're still of thinking '70s cars.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 05:23:34 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:07:57 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> "Start/Stop" is no more. For some reason customers didn't like their
>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>
>>
>>I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>>in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>>to wear out? What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
>>to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
>>on their horns. No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.
>
>The starters are beefed up to handle the load. The real issue is the
>engine bearings--I don't think they have a real fix for that.

They didn't have a fix for customers who said "hell no!", either.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:53:08 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 9:40 AM, Markem618 wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:26:12 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/15/2021 2:07 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> "Start/Stop" is no more.  For some reason customers didn't like their
>>>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>>>> in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>>>> to wear out?  What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
>>>> to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
>>>> on their horns.  No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.
>>>
>>> These vehicles have HD starters and upgraded batteries.
>>>
>>> As far as it failing, no more likely than any vehicle simply stalling
>>> and causing issues.
>>>
>>> You are over thinking it.
>>>
>>> FWIW I don't care for the start stop feature at all but you get used to it.
>>
>> With as little as I drive now the battery is not charged enough for
>> the stop/start to work.
>>
>
>
>IF the battery is below a certain charge/voltage the engine does not stop.

My ('13) truck isn't start/stop but has a weird "battery saving mode"
that comes up on the center-stack display but I really don't
understand what it does. It doesn't like my (Qi) phone charger or my
GPS/backup camera display plugged in overnight (even not being used).
Eventually it'll complain. Running it during the day doesn't seem to
put enough back on the battery to keep it from complaining.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:59:52 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/14/2021 9:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>Snip
>
>>
>> No, "Start/Stop" is where the engine shuts off at stoplights and
>> restarts when you press on the accelerator.
>
>Actually on my F150, if YOU stop the vehicle you simply take your foot
>off of the brake pedal to restart the engine, that is with normal
>start/stop operation.
>
>If you are using adaptive cruise control and the vehicle stops on it's
>own and shuts down the engine, you restart by pressing the accelerator
>pedal and that also releases the brake.
>
>
>
>>
>>> How do you get in and out of ACC mode in her car? You know, to listen to the radio
>>> without the engine running.
>>
>> Actually, I don't know. She doesn't let me drive it. ;-)
>>>
>>>>> How do you get out of ACC mode? You push the Start/Stop button again, which puts the
>>>>> van in Run mode (lamp test runs, relays click and clack, HVAC comes on, etc.) then press
>>>>> it again to shut the van off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe all Push To Start vehicles act like that. This is my first one.
>>>> Fortunately they were a bad idea that went where all bad ideas went.
>>>> It was a PITA to design to, also.
>>>
>>> Aren't almost all newer cars Push To Start? *What* went where all bad ideas went?
>>
>> "Start/Stop" is no more. For some reason customers didn't like their
>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>
>
>2019 F150 has engine stop/start but that can be over ridden after every
>engine start using the start button.

There is usually some magic and totally incomprehensible combination
of button pushes and knob twisting that will disable the feature
permanently.
>
>And the engine does not shut down at every stop light. It all seems to
>depend on the load on the battery. If your AC is working to keep the
>temp cool, it will not shut down. And by the same token if the engine
>does shut down and the interior temp changes the engine will
>automatically restart whether you are ready to proceed or not.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:30:03 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 2:00 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 1:00 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> Have you ever parked, wanted to turn off the engine but continue
>>> listening to what's
>>> playing on the audio system? You have to leave the van in gear and
>>> press the Start/Stop
>>> button. The engine will shut off and the audio system will stay on
>>> (ACC mode). Now you
>>> can put the van in Park...if you remember.;-)
>>>
>>> How do you get out of ACC mode? You push the Start/Stop button again,
>>> which puts the
>>> van in Run mode (lamp test runs, relays click and clack, HVAC comes
>>> on, etc.) then press
>>> it again to shut the van off.
>>>
>>> Maybe all Push To Start vehicles act like that. This is my first one.
>>>
>>> I hate it because it's putting extra wear and tear on systems. I
>>> always let it come
>>> to steady state in Run mode because I don't want to turn it off midway
>>> through
>>> it's "start-up procedure". PITA just to use the ACC mode.
>>>
>>> That's just some of the weird stuff that the infotainment system does.
>>> Terrible
>>> design, coding, etc.
>>
>>
>> That's awful... I can cut the ignition key and throw the shifter into
>> neutral, and roll to a stop in a parking lot.  Throw it back in gear,
>> and engage parking brake (if it works)... key out, and get moving.  Key
>> can come out sooner if you're stopping in a straight line (wheel locks
>> up with the key out).
>>
>> Thank God for my simple cars; I'd lose my mind with all of that madness.
>>  I get irritated enough hopping back into an automatic transmission car
>> that has to be in "PARK" to remove the key, or "NEUTRAL" to start. Radio
>> cuts off when you cut the key off; on when the key is on.  Nice and simple!
>
>
>
>HOW OLD are YOU?

He's a kid but drives his great-grandpappy's '38 DeSoto.