On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 2:38:47 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:
> > There are 2 pdf :
> > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf
> > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf

> Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
> Not something you browse easily through.
> Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).

There is plenty of reason for skepticism here. The thesis has a huge number of very sweeping conclusions regarding a large number of thinly documented individuals, many of whom have been the subject of considerable controversy and/or alternate mutually contradictory theories. A variation of the old "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" warning would be appropriate here.

Stewart Baldwin

I noticed in part 1 page 714-755 that Francois Doumerc draws the attention to the Germanic region and the family of count Wigeric. In part 2 in the genealogical charts 93-101 he sketches de ascendency, relatives and descendants of count Wigeric and his wife Cunegonde.

Doumerc comes up with an count Odacer als the father of count Wigeric. This Odacer he marries to a sister of count Regnier I longi colli. Cunegonde, the wife of count Wigeric becomes a daughter of a Rorgonide count by the name of Gauzbert (878-912), son of Gauzfrid + 878/885, count of Maine.

My French is minimal. I have allways been more inclined to English and German. Maybe someone can make sense of the arguments of Doumerc or de nonsense of his interpretations.

With regards,
Hans Vogels

On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 7:51:56 AM UTC, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 2:38:47 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:
> > > There are 2 pdf :
> > > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf
> > > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf
>
> > Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
> > Not something you browse easily through.
> > Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).
>
> There is plenty of reason for skepticism here. The thesis has a huge number of very sweeping conclusions regarding a large number of thinly documented individuals, many of whom have been the subject of considerable controversy and/or alternate mutually contradictory theories. A variation of the old "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" warning would be appropriate here.
>
> Stewart Baldwin
>
> I noticed in part 1 page 714-755 that Francois Doumerc draws the attention to the Germanic region and the family of count Wigeric. In part 2 in the genealogical charts 93-101 he sketches de ascendency, relatives and descendants of count Wigeric and his wife Cunegonde.
>
> Doumerc comes up with an count Odacer als the father of count Wigeric. This Odacer he marries to a sister of count Regnier I longi colli. Cunegonde, the wife of count Wigeric becomes a daughter of a Rorgonide count by the name of Gauzbert (878-912), son of Gauzfrid + 878/885, count of Maine.
>
> My French is minimal. I have allways been more inclined to English and German. Maybe someone can make sense of the arguments of Doumerc or de nonsense of his interpretations.
>
> With regards,
> Hans Vogels

Sorry I posted something similar, because your post only showed after i posted.

Mike

On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 7:51:56 AM UTC, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 2:38:47 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:
> > > There are 2 pdf :
> > > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf
> > > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf
>
> > Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
> > Not something you browse easily through.
> > Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).
>
> There is plenty of reason for skepticism here. The thesis has a huge number of very sweeping conclusions regarding a large number of thinly documented individuals, many of whom have been the subject of considerable controversy and/or alternate mutually contradictory theories. A variation of the old "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" warning would be appropriate here.
>
> Stewart Baldwin
>
> I noticed in part 1 page 714-755 that Francois Doumerc draws the attention to the Germanic region and the family of count Wigeric. In part 2 in the genealogical charts 93-101 he sketches de ascendency, relatives and descendants of count Wigeric and his wife Cunegonde.
>
> Doumerc comes up with an count Odacer als the father of count Wigeric. This Odacer he marries to a sister of count Regnier I longi colli. Cunegonde, the wife of count Wigeric becomes a daughter of a Rorgonide count by the name of Gauzbert (878-912), son of Gauzfrid + 878/885, count of Maine.
>
> My French is minimal. I have allways been more inclined to English and German. Maybe someone can make sense of the arguments of Doumerc or de nonsense of his interpretations.
>
> With regards,
> Hans Vogels

Sorry I posted something similar, but your post only showed up after I had posted to the other thread.
Must be some sort of time delay/difference.

My french is not great either and thats an awful lot to plough through, but briefly, on p721 he says
Count Gausbert is the father of Cunegunde because Wigeric has a son called Gauslin/Gozlin,
which he says links him to the Rorgonids of Maine/Neustria. Plus a Gausfrid, who was briefly
bishop of Strasburg in 913 before being expelled, is called the son of a sister of King Charles,
thought to be Charles the Simple by Eckel. Gausfrid was only Bishop in 913 for a few months,
although he says the chronology is rather tight, and he couldnt have been the canonical age of 30
anyway. He says this Bishop Gausfrid was the brother of Cunegunde [p722].

Their father Count Gausbert appears alongside another Count Gauslin and a Ct Heriveus/Harvey in a
charter for Marmoutier made by Robert Marquis of Neustia 11 Nov 912 [although a footnote suggests
these charters are false or later interpolations, whether that affects this evidence I dunno]. This Count
Gauslin appears in a later charter for St.Martin de Tours in 914 with a royal vassal called Gausbert, he
says is perhaps Ct Gausbert's son. Then he connects these with a family in the charters of Trier with
the same names, a _vir illuster_ called Gausbert [909-29] who was likely the brother of Rorico [909-26].
They were the brothers of Cunegunde and brothers in law of Wigeric who he calls Count of Trier. This
Rorico of Trier was father of another Wigeric, so he could have married the sister of Wigeric.

This Gausbert _vir illuster_ of Trier was father of another Gausbert junior, a Bernacrus and
Bodo who was later prior of St.Maximin, where I assume the charters come from which mention these
men. And so it goes on. Basically anyone with a 'Rorgonid' name must be a relative. I assume
he sees this as evidence of Charles the Simple using marriages of relatives to forge alliances
with important nobles in Lotharingia.

I dunno whether Latouche discussed these Gausberts and Gauslins. His book is old [1910] but is
usually cited when the counts of maine come up.

As to odacer father of Wigeric, I think this theory is discussed on the Henry project page for
Wigeric.

Mike

Op woensdag 29 december 2021 om 03:55:45 UTC+1 schreef mike davis:
> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 7:51:56 AM UTC, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 2:38:47 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:
> > > > There are 2 pdf :
> > > > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf
> > > > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf
> >
> > > Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
> > > Not something you browse easily through.
> > > Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).
> >
> > There is plenty of reason for skepticism here. The thesis has a huge number of very sweeping conclusions regarding a large number of thinly documented individuals, many of whom have been the subject of considerable controversy and/or alternate mutually contradictory theories. A variation of the old "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" warning would be appropriate here.
> >
> > Stewart Baldwin
> >
> > I noticed in part 1 page 714-755 that Francois Doumerc draws the attention to the Germanic region and the family of count Wigeric. In part 2 in the genealogical charts 93-101 he sketches de ascendency, relatives and descendants of count Wigeric and his wife Cunegonde.
> >
> > Doumerc comes up with an count Odacer als the father of count Wigeric. This Odacer he marries to a sister of count Regnier I longi colli. Cunegonde, the wife of count Wigeric becomes a daughter of a Rorgonide count by the name of Gauzbert (878-912), son of Gauzfrid + 878/885, count of Maine.
> >
> > My French is minimal. I have allways been more inclined to English and German. Maybe someone can make sense of the arguments of Doumerc or de nonsense of his interpretations.
> >
> > With regards,
> > Hans Vogels
> Sorry I posted something similar, but your post only showed up after I had posted to the other thread.
> Must be some sort of time delay/difference.
>
> My french is not great either and thats an awful lot to plough through, but briefly, on p721 he says
> Count Gausbert is the father of Cunegunde because Wigeric has a son called Gauslin/Gozlin,
> which he says links him to the Rorgonids of Maine/Neustria. Plus a Gausfrid, who was briefly
> bishop of Strasburg in 913 before being expelled, is called the son of a sister of King Charles,
> thought to be Charles the Simple by Eckel. Gausfrid was only Bishop in 913 for a few months,
> although he says the chronology is rather tight, and he couldnt have been the canonical age of 30
> anyway. He says this Bishop Gausfrid was the brother of Cunegunde [p722].
>
> Their father Count Gausbert appears alongside another Count Gauslin and a Ct Heriveus/Harvey in a
> charter for Marmoutier made by Robert Marquis of Neustia 11 Nov 912 [although a footnote suggests
> these charters are false or later interpolations, whether that affects this evidence I dunno]. This Count
> Gauslin appears in a later charter for St.Martin de Tours in 914 with a royal vassal called Gausbert, he
> says is perhaps Ct Gausbert's son. Then he connects these with a family in the charters of Trier with
> the same names, a _vir illuster_ called Gausbert [909-29] who was likely the brother of Rorico [909-26].
> They were the brothers of Cunegunde and brothers in law of Wigeric who he calls Count of Trier. This
> Rorico of Trier was father of another Wigeric, so he could have married the sister of Wigeric.
>
> This Gausbert _vir illuster_ of Trier was father of another Gausbert junior, a Bernacrus and
> Bodo who was later prior of St.Maximin, where I assume the charters come from which mention these
> men. And so it goes on. Basically anyone with a 'Rorgonid' name must be a relative. I assume
> he sees this as evidence of Charles the Simple using marriages of relatives to forge alliances
> with important nobles in Lotharingia.
>
> I dunno whether Latouche discussed these Gausberts and Gauslins. His book is old [1910] but is
> usually cited when the counts of maine come up.
>
> As to odacer father of Wigeric, I think this theory is discussed on the Henry project page for
> Wigeric.
>
> Mike

Thank you Mike

With regards,
Hans Vogels