Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Things are not as simple as they seems at first. -- Edward Thorp


interests / alt.english.usage / Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'

SubjectAuthor
* Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'Steve Hayes
+- Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'Steve Hayes
`* Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'Tak To
 `* Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'Mack A. Damia
  `* Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'Peter Duncanson [BrE]
   `* Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'Tak To
    `* Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'Anton Shepelev
     `* Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'Steve Hayes
      `* Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'Ruud Harmsen
       `- Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'Lewis

1
Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'

<sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3716&group=alt.english.usage#3716

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english alt.english.usage
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: hayes...@telkomsa.net (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 03:17:29 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me>
References: <j7bpuhFeg1cU1@mid.individual.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 03:17:29 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="b0b4083a9f047b8c44d41c281d9db576";
logging-data="14050"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/03PEF6Mv308aLnNqvOfRM+m8toSzeM1k="
User-Agent: Pan/0.135 (Tomorrow I'll Wake Up and Scald Myself with Tea; GIT
30dc37b master)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:s8UXgcFruvawlY99SWDLqC3cIb0=
 by: Steve Hayes - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 03:17 UTC

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:01:05 +0100, occam wrote:

> Once upon a time I was used to hearing 'kee-ev' (or kee-ef) when
> referring to the capital of Ukraine, Kiev.
>
> Today I heard president Biden say 'keeve'. When I keyed 'Kiev' into
> Google, I was redirected to 'Kyiv'. Since when?
>
> Can Anton Shepelev - who I know drifts in and out of a.u.e. - shed some
> light on the local pronunciation of this city?

Ukrainians seem to prefer a more phonetic transliteration into English
than Russians.

English speakers often pronounced "Soviet" with three syllables - "SO-vee-
et", but Russians (I don't know about Ukrainians), pronounce it with two
syllables -- suv-YET (the "u" being pronounced like the Southern English
pronunciation of "butter").

Perhaps Russians would transliterate Kiev as Kyev rather than Kyiv, but
they'd still use one syllable.

--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'

<383u1h192fl04g1jealu9294clodhrod5i@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3776&group=alt.english.usage#3776

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english alt.english.usage
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: hayes...@telkomsa.net (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2022 08:25:52 +0200
Organization: Khanya Publications
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <383u1h192fl04g1jealu9294clodhrod5i@4ax.com>
References: <j7bpuhFeg1cU1@mid.individual.net> <sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me>
Reply-To: hayesstw@gmail.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="bc2a85eb244b207fe3c7590e11f1118e";
logging-data="8526"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19QOZR4DIiQ3mf1PZETnG8QJe+QSMeSDr8="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:WoUVxzTC2Sv8AkFp4P9GVUyY3a4=
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 2.0/32.652
X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 220301-14, 2022-03-01), Outbound message
 by: Steve Hayes - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 06:25 UTC

On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 03:17:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:01:05 +0100, occam wrote:
>
>> Once upon a time I was used to hearing 'kee-ev' (or kee-ef) when
>> referring to the capital of Ukraine, Kiev.
>>
>> Today I heard president Biden say 'keeve'. When I keyed 'Kiev' into
>> Google, I was redirected to 'Kyiv'. Since when?
>>
>> Can Anton Shepelev - who I know drifts in and out of a.u.e. - shed some
>> light on the local pronunciation of this city?

>Perhaps Russians would transliterate Kiev as Kyev rather than Kyiv, but
>they'd still use one syllable.

I'm still not sure how people in the city pronounce it.

What is the value of the i vowel in Ukrainian?

As far as I can see the best transliteration would probably be "Keiv"

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'

<svobve$f24$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3785&group=alt.english.usage#3785

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english alt.english.usage
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tak...@alum.mit.eduxx (Tak To)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 13:10:53 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <svobve$f24$2@dont-email.me>
References: <j7bpuhFeg1cU1@mid.individual.net> <sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 18:10:54 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="eac066518fc30b0db88a2351c46ab28c";
logging-data="15428"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/Y0DWSMQX3ONS8z95KKdRu"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.6.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:a3q3F2G3gJPhJtPOmxiYQqFskRM=
In-Reply-To: <sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Tak To - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 18:10 UTC

On 2/21/2022 10:17 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:01:05 +0100, occam wrote:
>
>> Once upon a time I was used to hearing 'kee-ev' (or kee-ef) when
>> referring to the capital of Ukraine, Kiev.
>>
>> Today I heard president Biden say 'keeve'. When I keyed 'Kiev' into
>> Google, I was redirected to 'Kyiv'. Since when?
>>
>> Can Anton Shepelev - who I know drifts in and out of a.u.e. - shed some
>> light on the local pronunciation of this city?
>
> Ukrainians seem to prefer a more phonetic transliteration into English
> than Russians.
>
> English speakers often pronounced "Soviet" with three syllables - "SO-vee-
> et", but Russians (I don't know about Ukrainians), pronounce it with two
> syllables -- suv-YET (the "u" being pronounced like the Southern English
> pronunciation of "butter").
>
> Perhaps Russians would transliterate Kiev as Kyev rather than Kyiv, but
> they'd still use one syllable.

Two.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To takto@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'

<4ehv1hdi09pdbgt15vsepa4gibm4fcrpr4@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3786&group=alt.english.usage#3786

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english alt.english.usage
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: drsteerf...@yahoo.com (Mack A. Damia)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2022 11:32:15 -0800
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4ehv1hdi09pdbgt15vsepa4gibm4fcrpr4@4ax.com>
References: <j7bpuhFeg1cU1@mid.individual.net> <sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me> <svobve$f24$2@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net in+cVFmv3SAfbWdbTcfLAglyhz4lNfkKrgIUj6Mp8U6x4m0d5g
Cancel-Lock: sha1:/v9vf1VCDqZj+Ckm73SHICJKmwI=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118
 by: Mack A. Damia - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 19:32 UTC

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 13:10:53 -0500, Tak To <takto@alum.mit.eduxx>
wrote:

>On 2/21/2022 10:17 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:01:05 +0100, occam wrote:
>>
>>> Once upon a time I was used to hearing 'kee-ev' (or kee-ef) when
>>> referring to the capital of Ukraine, Kiev.
>>>
>>> Today I heard president Biden say 'keeve'. When I keyed 'Kiev' into
>>> Google, I was redirected to 'Kyiv'. Since when?
>>>
>>> Can Anton Shepelev - who I know drifts in and out of a.u.e. - shed some
>>> light on the local pronunciation of this city?
>>
>> Ukrainians seem to prefer a more phonetic transliteration into English
>> than Russians.
>>
>> English speakers often pronounced "Soviet" with three syllables - "SO-vee-
>> et", but Russians (I don't know about Ukrainians), pronounce it with two
>> syllables -- suv-YET (the "u" being pronounced like the Southern English
>> pronunciation of "butter").
>>
>> Perhaps Russians would transliterate Kiev as Kyev rather than Kyiv, but
>> they'd still use one syllable.
>
>Two.

Is this the 21st Century "We Want Our Own Pronunciation Syndrome"?

It was always pronounced "KEY-EV" when I was younger.

Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'

<fdlv1h5tlgv6a59k8ccviro390hl8ruh4m@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3787&group=alt.english.usage#3787

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english alt.english.usage
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.mixmin.net!news2.arglkargh.de!news.karotte.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: mai...@peterduncanson.net (Peter Duncanson [BrE])
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2022 20:47:03 +0000
Organization: Home - semi-rural location between Lisburn and Belfast, Northern Ireland
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <fdlv1h5tlgv6a59k8ccviro390hl8ruh4m@4ax.com>
References: <j7bpuhFeg1cU1@mid.individual.net> <sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me> <svobve$f24$2@dont-email.me> <4ehv1hdi09pdbgt15vsepa4gibm4fcrpr4@4ax.com>
Reply-To: Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Trace: individual.net qcl7ivxmM4Di+HBL5NLkTgxZSwHmuPJ06CMIJ6TxqayqcdvHad
Cancel-Lock: sha1:WvGcaTJ7cIXhSZshhhnlz7dlSxU=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
 by: Peter Duncanson [BrE - Wed, 2 Mar 2022 20:47 UTC

On Wed, 02 Mar 2022 11:32:15 -0800, Mack A. Damia
<drsteerforth@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 13:10:53 -0500, Tak To <takto@alum.mit.eduxx>
>wrote:
>
>>On 2/21/2022 10:17 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:01:05 +0100, occam wrote:
>>>
>>>> Once upon a time I was used to hearing 'kee-ev' (or kee-ef) when
>>>> referring to the capital of Ukraine, Kiev.
>>>>
>>>> Today I heard president Biden say 'keeve'. When I keyed 'Kiev' into
>>>> Google, I was redirected to 'Kyiv'. Since when?
>>>>
>>>> Can Anton Shepelev - who I know drifts in and out of a.u.e. - shed some
>>>> light on the local pronunciation of this city?
>>>
>>> Ukrainians seem to prefer a more phonetic transliteration into English
>>> than Russians.
>>>
>>> English speakers often pronounced "Soviet" with three syllables - "SO-vee-
>>> et", but Russians (I don't know about Ukrainians), pronounce it with two
>>> syllables -- suv-YET (the "u" being pronounced like the Southern English
>>> pronunciation of "butter").
>>>
>>> Perhaps Russians would transliterate Kiev as Kyev rather than Kyiv, but
>>> they'd still use one syllable.
>>
>>Two.
>
>Is this the 21st Century "We Want Our Own Pronunciation Syndrome"?
>
>It was always pronounced "KEY-EV" when I was younger.
>
Yes, but since the Russian invasion of Ukraine some people are choosing
to use the Ukrainian name and pronuciation rather than the Russian.

Listening to Urkrainians speaking on TV news I have heard monosyllabic
"Keev" and bisyllabic "Kee-iv" with the "i" as a very brief short-i or
as a very brief schwa. (An expert might describe that differently.)

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'

<svp363$638$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3788&group=alt.english.usage#3788

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english alt.english.usage
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tak...@alum.mit.eduxx (Tak To)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 19:46:57 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <svp363$638$1@dont-email.me>
References: <j7bpuhFeg1cU1@mid.individual.net> <sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me>
<svobve$f24$2@dont-email.me> <4ehv1hdi09pdbgt15vsepa4gibm4fcrpr4@4ax.com>
<fdlv1h5tlgv6a59k8ccviro390hl8ruh4m@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 00:46:59 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="f83d6430c171448eb6b80e016cb1b7cb";
logging-data="6248"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19aMvH2SN+p2U90+hvLDvD1"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.6.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:WLBCcfib7UvdIJWoBV2il03yK3g=
In-Reply-To: <fdlv1h5tlgv6a59k8ccviro390hl8ruh4m@4ax.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Tak To - Thu, 3 Mar 2022 00:46 UTC

On 3/2/2022 3:47 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Mar 2022 11:32:15 -0800, Mack A. Damia
> <drsteerforth@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 13:10:53 -0500, Tak To <takto@alum.mit.eduxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/21/2022 10:17 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:01:05 +0100, occam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Once upon a time I was used to hearing 'kee-ev' (or kee-ef) when
>>>>> referring to the capital of Ukraine, Kiev.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today I heard president Biden say 'keeve'. When I keyed 'Kiev' into
>>>>> Google, I was redirected to 'Kyiv'. Since when?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can Anton Shepelev - who I know drifts in and out of a.u.e. - shed some
>>>>> light on the local pronunciation of this city?
>>>>
>>>> Ukrainians seem to prefer a more phonetic transliteration into English
>>>> than Russians.
>>>>
>>>> English speakers often pronounced "Soviet" with three syllables - "SO-vee-
>>>> et", but Russians (I don't know about Ukrainians), pronounce it with two
>>>> syllables -- suv-YET (the "u" being pronounced like the Southern English
>>>> pronunciation of "butter").
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps Russians would transliterate Kiev as Kyev rather than Kyiv, but
>>>> they'd still use one syllable.
>>>
>>> Two.
>>
>> Is this the 21st Century "We Want Our Own Pronunciation Syndrome"?
>>
>> It was always pronounced "KEY-EV" when I was younger.
>>
> Yes, but since the Russian invasion of Ukraine some people are choosing
> to use the Ukrainian name and pronuciation rather than the Russian.
>
> Listening to Urkrainians speaking on TV news I have heard monosyllabic
> "Keev" and bisyllabic "Kee-iv" with the "i" as a very brief short-i or
> as a very brief schwa. (An expert might describe that differently.)

It is [ˈkɪjiu̯] for both Ukranian and Russian, according
to Wikipedia articles -- "kee-yue" more or less.

The Forvo audio samples are clearer.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To takto@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'

<20220303111348.f98b3ea2ef19011ab7170743@g{oogle}mail.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3789&group=alt.english.usage#3789

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english alt.english.usage
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: anton....@g{oogle}mail.com (Anton Shepelev)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 11:13:48 +0300
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <20220303111348.f98b3ea2ef19011ab7170743@g{oogle}mail.com>
References: <j7bpuhFeg1cU1@mid.individual.net>
<sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me>
<svobve$f24$2@dont-email.me>
<4ehv1hdi09pdbgt15vsepa4gibm4fcrpr4@4ax.com>
<fdlv1h5tlgv6a59k8ccviro390hl8ruh4m@4ax.com>
<svp363$638$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="0f9f745cf335f52f24ec33d9e206b204";
logging-data="30307"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19d1mt4S0IzRQMuy3dPOGzI8TmfoMJrjHc="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:IoDPNx6syy8szvAWabWGBROg9AA=
X-Newsreader: Sylpheed 3.5.0 (GTK+ 2.24.23; i686-pc-mingw32)
 by: Anton Shepelev - Thu, 3 Mar 2022 08:13 UTC

Tak To:

> It is [ˈkɪjiu̯] for both Ukranian and Russian, according to
> Wikipedia articles -- "kee-yue" more or less.

Nope, the pronunciations in Ukrainian and in Russian are
very different. The Russian one is more straight-forward
and easier for English speakers to repeat: kee-yev with the
stress on the first syllable. The Ukrainian one has the
formidable sound of `ы' for the virst wovel and the South-
Slavic soft pronuncation of the ending in -v, which is more
like 'ou'.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'

<52l52htekaeclvvf6uk5e0bv0glagvmnc8@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3799&group=alt.english.usage#3799

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english alt.english.usage
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: hayes...@telkomsa.net (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 05:14:16 +0200
Organization: Khanya Publications
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <52l52htekaeclvvf6uk5e0bv0glagvmnc8@4ax.com>
References: <j7bpuhFeg1cU1@mid.individual.net> <sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me> <svobve$f24$2@dont-email.me> <4ehv1hdi09pdbgt15vsepa4gibm4fcrpr4@4ax.com> <fdlv1h5tlgv6a59k8ccviro390hl8ruh4m@4ax.com> <svp363$638$1@dont-email.me> <20220303111348.f98b3ea2ef19011ab7170743@g{oogle}mail.com>
Reply-To: hayesstw@gmail.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="6de215d6aca3cbc3ccb168ffc2df1565";
logging-data="2770"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18MgXh4J3dLJKLeTtjeKYC/DxuCVOSIaD8="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:+y7+yOPejFYvpxrvH5caAwx2nQY=
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 2.0/32.652
X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 220304-6, 2022-03-04), Outbound message
 by: Steve Hayes - Sat, 5 Mar 2022 03:14 UTC

On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 11:13:48 +0300, Anton Shepelev
<anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:

>Tak To:
>
>> It is [?k?jiu?] for both Ukranian and Russian, according to
>> Wikipedia articles -- "kee-yue" more or less.
>
>Nope, the pronunciations in Ukrainian and in Russian are
>very different. The Russian one is more straight-forward
>and easier for English speakers to repeat: kee-yev with the
>stress on the first syllable. The Ukrainian one has the
>formidable sound of `?' for the virst wovel and the South-
>Slavic soft pronuncation of the ending in -v, which is more
>like 'ou'.

However the locals pronounce it, the "Kyiv" transliteration seems very
misleading for English speakers.

ky as in "backyard"
i as in "myth"
v as in van.

Is that really how the locals pronounce it?

Or would a better transliteration be "Keiv"?

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'

<oqt52h1q18ac3b6kmhbiq5j0bt9nnl19ok@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3800&group=alt.english.usage#3800

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english alt.english.usage
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 06:39:38 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <oqt52h1q18ac3b6kmhbiq5j0bt9nnl19ok@4ax.com>
References: <j7bpuhFeg1cU1@mid.individual.net> <sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me> <svobve$f24$2@dont-email.me> <4ehv1hdi09pdbgt15vsepa4gibm4fcrpr4@4ax.com> <fdlv1h5tlgv6a59k8ccviro390hl8ruh4m@4ax.com> <svp363$638$1@dont-email.me> <20220303111348.f98b3ea2ef19011ab7170743@g{oogle}mail.com> <52l52htekaeclvvf6uk5e0bv0glagvmnc8@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="f74e19eac3cb565309ef999fe1082cd0";
logging-data="19372"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/XqGKMcwPAYKH6gLyEh/LB"
Cancel-Lock: sha1:0e7VEPQzjMzwLd1oWuYfGKLimcQ=
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
 by: Ruud Harmsen - Sat, 5 Mar 2022 05:39 UTC

Sat, 05 Mar 2022 05:14:16 +0200: Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net>
scribeva:

>On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 11:13:48 +0300, Anton Shepelev
><anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:
>
>>Tak To:
>>
>>> It is [?k?jiu?] for both Ukranian and Russian, according to
>>> Wikipedia articles -- "kee-yue" more or less.
>>
>>Nope, the pronunciations in Ukrainian and in Russian are
>>very different. The Russian one is more straight-forward
>>and easier for English speakers to repeat: kee-yev with the
>>stress on the first syllable. The Ukrainian one has the
>>formidable sound of `?' for the virst wovel and the South-
>>Slavic soft pronuncation of the ending in -v, which is more
>>like 'ou'.
>
>However the locals pronounce it, the "Kyiv" transliteration seems very
>misleading for English speakers.
>
>ky as in "backyard"
>i as in "myth"
>v as in van.
>
>Is that really how the locals pronounce it?

No, not at all. See my previous post. To English (here including my)
ears, it sounds like Key You.

https://forvo.com/word/%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%97%D0%B2/

>Or would a better transliteration be "Keiv"?

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'

<slrnt26udu.28uh.g.kreme@zephyrus.local>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3809&group=alt.english.usage#3809

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.usage.english alt.english.usage
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!kreme.dont-email.me!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: From 'Kiev' to 'Kyiv'
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 14:54:54 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Miskatonic U
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <slrnt26udu.28uh.g.kreme@zephyrus.local>
References: <j7bpuhFeg1cU1@mid.individual.net> <sv1kk9$dn2$3@dont-email.me>
<svobve$f24$2@dont-email.me> <4ehv1hdi09pdbgt15vsepa4gibm4fcrpr4@4ax.com>
<fdlv1h5tlgv6a59k8ccviro390hl8ruh4m@4ax.com> <svp363$638$1@dont-email.me>
<20220303111348.f98b3ea2ef19011ab7170743@g{oogle}mail.com>
<52l52htekaeclvvf6uk5e0bv0glagvmnc8@4ax.com>
<oqt52h1q18ac3b6kmhbiq5j0bt9nnl19ok@4ax.com>
Reply-To: g.kreme@gmail.don-t-email-me.com
Injection-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 14:54:54 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: kreme.dont-email.me; posting-host="7c86d6ddfb362e01b09dc4d29dad21c9";
logging-data="17723"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19Lr980pEtzj9/leWNmxIzZ"
User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (Darwin)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:tyT34/C/VOQf6+mqtgBfvUyPGbA=
X-Face: )^b5"R:T7U>9~:PEn3YkzMfW*[b1qKeU.fP9C8~8HpU9}lA&6`bH1z
X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
 by: Lewis - Sat, 5 Mar 2022 14:54 UTC

In message <oqt52h1q18ac3b6kmhbiq5j0bt9nnl19ok@4ax.com> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Sat, 05 Mar 2022 05:14:16 +0200: Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net>
> scribeva:

>>On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 11:13:48 +0300, Anton Shepelev
>><anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Tak To:
>>>
>>>> It is [?k?jiu?] for both Ukranian and Russian, according to
>>>> Wikipedia articles -- "kee-yue" more or less.
>>>
>>>Nope, the pronunciations in Ukrainian and in Russian are
>>>very different. The Russian one is more straight-forward
>>>and easier for English speakers to repeat: kee-yev with the
>>>stress on the first syllable. The Ukrainian one has the
>>>formidable sound of `?' for the virst wovel and the South-
>>>Slavic soft pronuncation of the ending in -v, which is more
>>>like 'ou'.
>>
>>However the locals pronounce it, the "Kyiv" transliteration seems very
>>misleading for English speakers.
>>
>>ky as in "backyard"
>>i as in "myth"
>>v as in van.
>>
>>Is that really how the locals pronounce it?

> No, not at all. See my previous post. To English (here including my)
> ears, it sounds like Key You.

> https://forvo.com/word/%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%97%D0%B2/

I think for maximal understanding among English speakers I'm sticking
with the 'keyv" single syllable pronunciation and the new Kyiv spelling.

--
In the end we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the
silence of our friends. -Martin Luther King, Jr

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor