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interests / alt.english.usage / Local vs universal pronunciation

SubjectAuthor
* Local vs universal pronunciationSteve Hayes
+* Re: Local vs universal pronunciationPeter Moylan
|+* Re: Local vs universal pronunciationoccam
||+- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationcharles
||+- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationPeter Moylan
||+* Re: Local vs universal pronunciationmusika
|||`* Re: Local vs universal pronunciationoccam
||| +- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationAdam Funk
||| +- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationRichard Heathfield
||| `- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationSteve Hayes
||+- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationAdam Funk
||+- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationPeter Duncanson [BrE]
||`- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationHVS
|`* Re: Local vs universal pronunciationRichard Heathfield
| +- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationPaul Wolff
| +- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationSam Plusnet
| `- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationSteve Hayes
`- Re: Local vs universal pronunciationRichard Heathfield

1
Local vs universal pronunciation

<sv1lgr$dn2$4@dont-email.me>

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From: hayes...@telkomsa.net (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Local vs universal pronunciation
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 03:32:43 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Steve Hayes - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 03:32 UTC

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:

> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names we use
> with those used by the locals?

Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?

Or Bicester as "Bister"?

--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:07:21 +1100
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 by: Peter Moylan - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 04:07 UTC

On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>
>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names we use
>> with those used by the locals?
>
> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>
> Or Bicester as "Bister"?

I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
that Wikipedia confirms that.

As for Cirencester, I've never had the courage to hazard a guess.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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From: nob...@nowhere.nix (occam)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
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 by: occam - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 08:30 UTC

On 22/02/2022 05:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>
>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names we use
>>> with those used by the locals?
>>
>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>
>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>
> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
> that Wikipedia confirms that.

I had a colleague who lived in Bicester. You are correct to think
'bister'. However, following that logic, shouldn't Cirencester be
pronounced 'sister' (or cister)?

>
> As for Cirencester, I've never had the courage to hazard a guess.
>

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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From: char...@candehope.me.uk (charles)
Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 09:14:46 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: charles - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 09:14 UTC

In article <j7jl9iFu1b4U1@mid.individual.net>,
occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 05:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
> >> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names we
> >>> use with those used by the locals?
> >>
> >> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
> >>
> >> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
> >
> > I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
> > that Wikipedia confirms that.

> I had a colleague who lived in Bicester. You are correct to think
> 'bister'. However, following that logic, shouldn't Cirencester be
> pronounced 'sister' (or cister)?

This is English - logic doesn't apply

> >
> > As for Cirencester, I've never had the courage to hazard a guess.
> >

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 09:15:20 +0000
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 09:15 UTC

On 22/02/2022 3:32 am, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>
>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names we use
>> with those used by the locals?
>
> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?

Not I, sir. (I used "Siren-sester").

> Or Bicester as "Bister"?

Yes, sir. I, sir.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 09:21 UTC

On 22/02/2022 4:07 am, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>
>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names we use
>>> with those used by the locals?
>>
>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>
>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>
> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
> that Wikipedia confirms that.

It is, so it ought to.

> As for Cirencester, I've never had the courage to hazard a guess.

I grew up within 15 miles of the place, and never heard it called
anything but Sirensester, except for a Latin teacher who occasionally
referred to it as Corinium.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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 by: Peter Moylan - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 11:24 UTC

On 22/02/22 19:30, occam wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 05:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names we use
>>>> with those used by the locals?
>>>
>>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>>
>>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>>
>> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
>> that Wikipedia confirms that.
>
> I had a colleague who lived in Bicester. You are correct to think
> 'bister'. However, following that logic, shouldn't Cirencester be
> pronounced 'sister' (or cister)?

What about Bertieworcester?

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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 by: musika - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:29 UTC

On 22/02/2022 08:30, occam wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 05:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names we use
>>>> with those used by the locals?
>>>
>>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>>
>>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>>
>> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
>> that Wikipedia confirms that.
>
> I had a colleague who lived in Bicester. You are correct to think
> 'bister'. However, following that logic, shouldn't Cirencester be
> pronounced 'sister' (or cister)?
>
Only if it was spelt Cicester.

--
Ray
UK

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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 by: Adam Funk - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 14:50 UTC

On 2022-02-22, occam wrote:

> On 22/02/2022 05:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names we use
>>>> with those used by the locals?
>>>
>>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>>
>>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>>
>> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
>> that Wikipedia confirms that.
>
> I had a colleague who lived in Bicester. You are correct to think
> 'bister'. However, following that logic, shouldn't Cirencester be
> pronounced 'sister' (or cister)?

It ought to be "sinster" (and it ought to have a minster) but logic is
not required (or even strongly encouraged) in English place names.

>
>
>>
>> As for Cirencester, I've never had the courage to hazard a guess.
>>
>

--
Besides, if you only follow the map, you won't find all the
good places! ---The Galdurian

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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From: mai...@peterduncanson.net (Peter Duncanson [BrE])
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:08:34 +0000
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 by: Peter Duncanson [BrE - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:08 UTC

On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 09:30:42 +0100, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 22/02/2022 05:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names we use
>>>> with those used by the locals?
>>>
>>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>>
>>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>>
>> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
>> that Wikipedia confirms that.
>
>I had a colleague who lived in Bicester. You are correct to think
>'bister'. However, following that logic, shouldn't Cirencester be
>pronounced 'sister' (or cister)?
>
>
This discussion gives various pronunciations of Cirencester that
have-been/are used:
https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-locals-pronounce-the-name-of-the-town-of-cirencester-in-gloucestershire/510791/3

>>
>> As for Cirencester, I've never had the courage to hazard a guess.
>>

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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From: nob...@nowhere.nix (occam)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
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 by: occam - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:51 UTC

On 22/02/2022 14:29, musika wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 08:30, occam wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 05:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names
>>>>> we use
>>>>> with those used by the locals?
>>>>
>>>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>>>
>>>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>>>
>>> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
>>> that Wikipedia confirms that.
>>
>> I had a colleague who lived in Bicester. You are correct to think
>> 'bister'.  However, following that logic, shouldn't Cirencester be
>> pronounced 'sister' (or cister)?
>>
> Only if it was spelt Cicester.
>
If you read one of the comments in the URL given by Peter Duncanson, one
of the throw away comments says:

"I’ve seen it noted that Shakespeare referred to the town in one of the
historical plays as ‘Sisiter’…and that would fit with what you’re
telling me."

All we need now is someone to authenticate the Shakespeare factoid.

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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From: a24...@ducksburg.com (Adam Funk)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
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 by: Adam Funk - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:34 UTC

On 2022-02-22, occam wrote:

> On 22/02/2022 14:29, musika wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 08:30, occam wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2022 05:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names
>>>>>> we use
>>>>>> with those used by the locals?
>>>>>
>>>>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>>>>
>>>> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
>>>> that Wikipedia confirms that.
>>>
>>> I had a colleague who lived in Bicester. You are correct to think
>>> 'bister'.  However, following that logic, shouldn't Cirencester be
>>> pronounced 'sister' (or cister)?
>>>
>> Only if it was spelt Cicester.
>>
> If you read one of the comments in the URL given by Peter Duncanson, one
> of the throw away comments says:
>
> "I’ve seen it noted that Shakespeare referred to the town in one of the
> historical plays as ‘Sisiter’…and that would fit with what you’re
> telling me."
>
> All we need now is someone to authenticate the Shakespeare factoid.

Come on, you're talking about someone who couldn't spell his own name!

--
you have slipped from beneath me, like a false and nervous squid

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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From: rjh...@cpax.org.uk (Richard Heathfield)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:47:02 +0000
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:47 UTC

On 22/02/2022 5:51 pm, occam wrote:
> On 22/02/2022 14:29, musika wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 08:30, occam wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2022 05:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names
>>>>>> we use
>>>>>> with those used by the locals?
>>>>>
>>>>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>>>>
>>>> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
>>>> that Wikipedia confirms that.
>>>
>>> I had a colleague who lived in Bicester. You are correct to think
>>> 'bister'.  However, following that logic, shouldn't Cirencester be
>>> pronounced 'sister' (or cister)?
>>>
>> Only if it was spelt Cicester.
>>
> If you read one of the comments in the URL given by Peter Duncanson, one
> of the throw away comments says:
>
> "I’ve seen it noted that Shakespeare referred to the town in one of the
> historical plays as ‘Sisiter’…and that would fit with what you’re
> telling me."
>
> All we need now is someone to authenticate the Shakespeare factoid.

No can do.

$ grep -i Sisiter shakespeare.txt
$ grep -i Sisister shakespeare.txt
$ grep -i ester shakespeare.txt | fmt -1 | grep -i ester | grep -vi
yester | grep -vi worcester | grep -vi winchester | grep -vi leicester
| grep -vi rochester | grep -vi western | grep -vi jester | grep -vi
gloucester | grep -vi forester | grep -vi gamester | grep -vi fester |
grep -vi pester | sort | uniq
cestern
Chester;
honester
honester
Prester
protester,
sequester
tester
Tester
testern'd

....none of which look plausible for Cirencester nymshifts.

The days of hand-waving "it's in Shakespeare somewhere" are probably over.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
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 by: Paul Wolff - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 22:48 UTC

On Tue, 22 Feb 2022, at 09:21:46, Richard Heathfield posted:
>On 22/02/2022 4:07 am, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names we use
>>>> with those used by the locals?
>>>
>>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>>
>>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see
>>now that Wikipedia confirms that.
>
>It is, so it ought to.
>
>> As for Cirencester, I've never had the courage to hazard a guess.
>
>I grew up within 15 miles of the place, and never heard it called
>anything but Sirensester, except for a Latin teacher who occasionally
>referred to it as Corinium.
>
That one either rhymes with gadolinium or falls under "there may be many
others but they haven't been discarvard".
--
Paul

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Wed, 23 Feb 2022 00:09 UTC

On 22-Feb-22 9:21, Richard Heathfield wrote:

>> As for Cirencester, I've never had the courage to hazard a guess.
>
> I grew up within 15 miles of the place, and never heard it called
> anything but Sirensester, except for a Latin teacher who occasionally
> referred to it as Corinium.
>

It probably still says that on his library ticket.

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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 by: HVS - Wed, 23 Feb 2022 17:50 UTC

On 22 Feb 2022, occam wrote

> On 22/02/2022 05:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the
>>>> names we use with those used by the locals?
>>>
>>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>>
>>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>>
>> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I
>> see now that Wikipedia confirms that.
>
> I had a colleague who lived in Bicester. You are correct to think
> 'bister'. However, following that logic, shouldn't Cirencester be
> pronounced 'sister' (or cister)?

Logic? In place-name pronunciations? Nah; not gonna work.

--
Cheers, Harvey

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

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From: hayes...@telkomsa.net (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:37:54 +0200
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 by: Steve Hayes - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:37 UTC

On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:51:59 +0100, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 22/02/2022 14:29, musika wrote:
>> On 22/02/2022 08:30, occam wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2022 05:07, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/22 14:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:37:49 +0000, Hibou wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this is legitimate. Why should we have to align the names
>>>>>> we use
>>>>>> with those used by the locals?
>>>>>
>>>>> Did anyone, ever, pronounce Cirencester as "Sisister"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or Bicester as "Bister"?
>>>>
>>>> I have always assumed that Bicester is pronounced Bister, and I see now
>>>> that Wikipedia confirms that.
>>>
>>> I had a colleague who lived in Bicester. You are correct to think
>>> 'bister'.  However, following that logic, shouldn't Cirencester be
>>> pronounced 'sister' (or cister)?
>>>
>> Only if it was spelt Cicester.
>>
>If you read one of the comments in the URL given by Peter Duncanson, one
>of the throw away comments says:
>
>"I’ve seen it noted that Shakespeare referred to the town in one of the
>historical plays as ‘Sisiter’…and that would fit with what you’re
>telling me."
>
>All we need now is someone to authenticate the Shakespeare factoid.

Authenticating factoids is a contradiction in terms, or an oxymoron
(what's the difference?)

But the essence of a factoid is that it's freqently repeated, and I've
only heard it rarely, but enough to wonder how the locals do pronounce
Cirencester. I might have imagnined sirrenster, or sinister.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Re: Local vs universal pronunciation

<h2oe1h5m53bl030tbq1hv1ugi18qnikidj@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=3755&group=alt.english.usage#3755

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From: hayes...@telkomsa.net (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Local vs universal pronunciation
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:41:31 +0200
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 by: Steve Hayes - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:41 UTC

On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 09:21:46 +0000, Richard Heathfield
<rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>On 22/02/2022 4:07 am, Peter Moylan wrote:

>> As for Cirencester, I've never had the courage to hazard a guess.
>
>I grew up within 15 miles of the place, and never heard it called
>anything but Sirensester, except for a Latin teacher who occasionally
>referred to it as Corinium.

As most of us live further away, I suppose we can take that as being
close to authoritative as we'll get.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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