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interests / alt.english.usage / Re: Come all without, come all within

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Come all without, come all withinSteve Hayes
+* Re: Come all without, come all withinPeter Moylan
|`- Re: Come all without, come all withinAnton Shepelev
`* Re: Come all without, come all withinPeter Duncanson [BrE]
 `* Re: Come all without, come all withinSnidely
  +- Re: Come all without, come all withinPeter Duncanson [BrE]
  `- Re: Come all without, come all withinLewis

1
Re: Come all without, come all within

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From: hayes...@telkomsa.net (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Come all without, come all within
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 12:38:38 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Steve Hayes - Sat, 5 Mar 2022 12:38 UTC

On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:53:56 -0800, spains...@gmail.com wrote:

> Did Quinn say somewhere that he was Celtic?
>
> Using my inuition I have deduced that he is not Celtic - but that raises
> an example of "without" as the opposite of "within".
>
> Another well known song has the same use of "without" as the opposite of
> "within"...

And then there's the Scottish politicians' use of "outwith".

--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

Re: Come all without, come all within

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Come all without, come all within
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 00:04:42 +1100
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 by: Peter Moylan - Sat, 5 Mar 2022 13:04 UTC

On 05/03/22 23:38, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:53:56 -0800, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Did Quinn say somewhere that he was Celtic?
>>
>> Using my inuition I have deduced that he is not Celtic - but that
>> raises an example of "without" as the opposite of "within".
>>
>> Another well known song has the same use of "without" as the
>> opposite of "within"...
>
> And then there's the Scottish politicians' use of "outwith".

Not just politicians. The last time this topic came up we had several
Scottish regulars saying to them it was a perfectly normal word.

A potentially useful word, too, if only I could remember its exact meaning.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: Come all without, come all within

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From: mai...@peterduncanson.net (Peter Duncanson [BrE])
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Come all without, come all within
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 14:18:38 +0000
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 by: Peter Duncanson [BrE - Sat, 5 Mar 2022 14:18 UTC

On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 12:38:38 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:53:56 -0800, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Did Quinn say somewhere that he was Celtic?
>>
>> Using my inuition I have deduced that he is not Celtic - but that raises
>> an example of "without" as the opposite of "within".
>>
>> Another well known song has the same use of "without" as the opposite of
>> "within"...
>
>
>And then there's the Scottish politicians' use of "outwith".

"outwith" is a normal word in Scottish English.

It used to be used more widely.

The earliest quotation in the OED is from 1175.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Re: Come all without, come all within

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From: snidely....@gmail.com (Snidely)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Come all without, come all within
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 01:15:14 -0800
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 by: Snidely - Mon, 7 Mar 2022 09:15 UTC

On Saturday or thereabouts, Peter Duncanson [BrE] declared ...
> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 12:38:38 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:53:56 -0800, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Did Quinn say somewhere that he was Celtic?
>>>
>>> Using my inuition I have deduced that he is not Celtic - but that raises
>>> an example of "without" as the opposite of "within".
>>>
>>> Another well known song has the same use of "without" as the opposite of
>>> "within"...
>>
>>
>> And then there's the Scottish politicians' use of "outwith".
>
> "outwith" is a normal word in Scottish English.
>
> It used to be used more widely.
>
> The earliest quotation in the OED is from 1175.

I take it that that isn't also the most recent.

/dps

--
Ieri, oggi, domani

Re: Come all without, come all within

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From: mai...@peterduncanson.net (Peter Duncanson [BrE])
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Come all without, come all within
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 12:30:40 +0000
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 by: Peter Duncanson [BrE - Mon, 7 Mar 2022 12:30 UTC

On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 01:15:14 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday or thereabouts, Peter Duncanson [BrE] declared ...
>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 12:38:38 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
>> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:53:56 -0800, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Did Quinn say somewhere that he was Celtic?
>>>>
>>>> Using my inuition I have deduced that he is not Celtic - but that raises
>>>> an example of "without" as the opposite of "within".
>>>>
>>>> Another well known song has the same use of "without" as the opposite of
>>>> "within"...
>>>
>>>
>>> And then there's the Scottish politicians' use of "outwith".
>>
>> "outwith" is a normal word in Scottish English.
>>
>> It used to be used more widely.
>>
>> The earliest quotation in the OED is from 1175.
>
>I take it that that isn't also the most recent.
>
Correct!

Used as an adverb (OED):

2020 J. P. Spence in Herald (Glasgow) 31 Oct. 16/6 As oo gan
ootwith Masks wull look efter uz Beyond Halloween.

That seems to refer to masks being worn as part of Halloween costumes
and masks being worn to protect against the coronavirus.

Judging by the appearance of these Halloween masks they might be
effective against coronavirus by keeping people at a safe distance!
https://www.halloweencostumes.co.uk/scary-masks.html

Other fairly recent examples of "outwith":

1999 I. Rankin Dead Souls xvi. 124 All at once he'd wanted to
buy a place there, but it had been too isolated for his wife—and
outwith their means anyway.

2001 Dunoon Observer & Argyllshire Standard 21 July 3/1 People
who were..talking on mobile phones without realising they were
moving outwith lane markings..were..subjected to warnings.

2000 Aberdeen Evening Express (Nexis) 7 Oct. 12 Strict
conditions have been imposed by planners to ensure no deliveries
outwith those hours.

1990 T. McEwen McX (1991) ii. 60 It [sc. this room] is not of
the castle but of the glens and hills and cottages outwith.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Re: Come all without, come all within

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From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Come all without, come all within
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 21:24:53 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Lewis - Mon, 7 Mar 2022 21:24 UTC

In message <mn.384b7e63fa5436bf.127094@snitoo> Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday or thereabouts, Peter Duncanson [BrE] declared ...
>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 12:38:38 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
>> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:53:56 -0800, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Did Quinn say somewhere that he was Celtic?
>>>>
>>>> Using my inuition I have deduced that he is not Celtic - but that raises
>>>> an example of "without" as the opposite of "within".
>>>>
>>>> Another well known song has the same use of "without" as the opposite of
>>>> "within"...
>>>
>>>
>>> And then there's the Scottish politicians' use of "outwith".
>>
>> "outwith" is a normal word in Scottish English.
>>
>> It used to be used more widely.
>>
>> The earliest quotation in the OED is from 1175.

> I take it that that isn't also the most recent.

I'm sure you can find a citation somewhere from this year, probably in a
Scottish publication. It's not common, but it's not archaic or obsolete.

--
Granny Weatherwax didn't hold with looking at the future, but now she
could feel the future looking at her. She didn't like its
expression at all.

Re: Come all without, come all within

<20220309104935.d3c974954411eded0f7c3dd6@g{oogle}mail.com>

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From: anton....@g{oogle}mail.com (Anton Shepelev)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage
Subject: Re: Come all without, come all within
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 10:49:35 +0300
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 by: Anton Shepelev - Wed, 9 Mar 2022 07:49 UTC

Peter Moylan:

> A potentially useful word, too, if only I could remember
> its exact meaning.

That is easy, since `without' is morphologically the antonym
of `within', `outwith' must be the antonym of `with'. But I
prefer the sound of `without'. Can you imagine the Platters
singing in The Great Pretender "I am outwith my love"?

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

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