On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:03:08 -0800, Metrist2021 wrote:

> To what would you attribute the tendency to use "the"
> before Ukraine in such sentences? Obviously, "the" is not wrong in
> sentences like "the Ukraine border," in which "the" is actually
> introducing a different noun altogether ("border").

Probably a similar tendency to that which caused English speakers to
speak about "Argentina" rather than "the Argentine".

--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

* Steve Hayes:

> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:03:08 -0800, Metrist2021 wrote:
>
>> To what would you attribute the tendency to use "the"
>> before Ukraine in such sentences? Obviously, "the" is not wrong in
>> sentences like "the Ukraine border," in which "the" is actually
>> introducing a different noun altogether ("border").
>
> Probably a similar tendency to that which caused English speakers to
> speak about "Argentina" rather than "the Argentine".

"Don't cry for me, the Argentine" just doesn't flow as well.

But seriously, I was educated about "The Argentine" in this group; I've
never (consciously) encountered it in real life, including TV and books,
and it still doesn't sound like a country to me.

--
It doesn't matter that you've got that stupid accent, or that your
bits are different to my bits, because being a Derry Girl,
well, it's a fucking state of mind. And you're one of us.
-- Michelle to James, Derry Girls, series 2, episode 6

On 3/5/2022 10:31 AM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Steve Hayes:
>> Metrist2021 wrote:

>>> To what would you attribute the tendency to use "the" before
>>> Ukraine in such sentences? Obviously, "the" is not wrong in
>>> sentences like "the Ukraine border," in which "the" is actually
>>> introducing a different noun altogether ("border").

>> Probably a similar tendency to that which caused English speakers
>> to speak about "Argentina" rather than "the Argentine".

> "Don't cry for me, the Argentine" just doesn't flow as well.

> But seriously, I was educated about "The Argentine" in this group;
> I've never (consciously) encountered it in real life, including TV
> and books, and it still doesn't sound like a country to me.

It is awkward to use it for the name of the country, as you say - but as
an adjective denoting nationality it works perfectly well.

As I recall, this thread began with a discussion of the names of
countries that took the article. I don't think anybody expressed a
preference for that particular form.

* CDB:

> On 3/5/2022 10:31 AM, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Steve Hayes:
>>> Metrist2021 wrote:
>
>>>> To what would you attribute the tendency to use "the" before
>>>> Ukraine in such sentences? Obviously, "the" is not wrong in
>>>> sentences like "the Ukraine border," in which "the" is actually
>>>> introducing a different noun altogether ("border").
>
>>> Probably a similar tendency to that which caused English speakers
>>> to speak about "Argentina" rather than "the Argentine".
>
>> "Don't cry for me, the Argentine" just doesn't flow as well.
>
>> But seriously, I was educated about "The Argentine" in this group;
>> I've never (consciously) encountered it in real life, including TV
>> and books, and it still doesn't sound like a country to me.
>
> It is awkward to use it for the name of the country, as you say - but as
> an adjective denoting nationality it works perfectly well.
>
> As I recall, this thread began with a discussion of the names of
> countries that took the article. I don't think anybody expressed a
> preference for that particular form.

Not in the present, but I remembered it as "when I was young, that was
the normal way of speaking about it". In which case it would still be
odd that I never seem to see it anywhere.

--
We say, 'If any lady or gentleman shall buy this article _____ shall
have it for five dollars.' The blank may be filled with he, she, it,
or they; or in any other manner; and yet the form of the expression
will be too vulgar to be uttered. -- Wkly Jrnl of Commerce (1839)

Steve Hayes:

> To what would you attribute the tendency to use "the"
> before Ukraine in such sentences? Obviously, "the" is
> not wrong in sentences like "the Ukraine border," in
> which "the" is actually introducing a different noun
> altogether ("border").

I think "The Ukraine" would make sense if it were used
accoridng the meaning. In Russian, `okraina' means a
borderland, so Ukraine is the land on or at the border.
Russian has no articles, but this implication is evident in
preposition. We say "in Russia", "in Poland", but "on
Ukraine," as we do with `okraina'.

--
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Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:01:28 +0300: Anton Shepelev <antoff.txt@gmail.com>
scribeva:

>Steve Hayes:
>
>> To what would you attribute the tendency to use "the"
>> before Ukraine in such sentences? Obviously, "the" is
>> not wrong in sentences like "the Ukraine border," in
>> which "the" is actually introducing a different noun
>> altogether ("border").
>
>I think "The Ukraine" would make sense if it were used
>accoridng the meaning. In Russian, `okraina' means a
>borderland, so Ukraine is the land on or at the border.
>Russian has no articles, but this implication is evident in
>preposition. We say "in Russia", "in Poland", but "on
>Ukraine," as we do with `okraina'.

Exactly. It's the difference between the prepositions v and na. Since
that was explained to me, a month or so ago, I also consistenly write
"Ukraine" (the independent country), not "the Ukraine" (the outskirt
of Russia, which Putin would like it to be).
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 10:31:23 -0500, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>But seriously, I was educated about "The Argentine" in this group; I've
>never (consciously) encountered it in real life, including TV and books,
>and it still doesn't sound like a country to me.

I can only recall hearing it once in the wild, from an English
Anglican nun in 1981 or thereabouts. Another Englishwoman reliably
informed me that the nun's family were "out of the top drawer".

But I vaguely recall having seen it in books.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:01:28 +0300, Anton Shepelev
<antoff.txt@gmail.com> wrote:

>Steve Hayes:
>
>> To what would you attribute the tendency to use "the"
>> before Ukraine in such sentences? Obviously, "the" is
>> not wrong in sentences like "the Ukraine border," in
>> which "the" is actually introducing a different noun
>> altogether ("border").
>
>I think "The Ukraine" would make sense if it were used
>accoridng the meaning. In Russian, `okraina' means a
>borderland, so Ukraine is the land on or at the border.
>Russian has no articles, but this implication is evident in
>preposition. We say "in Russia", "in Poland", but "on
>Ukraine," as we do with `okraina'.

We had the same thing in South Africa, when referring to land this
side or the other side of a geographical feature like a river or
mountain range, so we had "the Ciskei", "the Transkei, "the
Transvaal", but I don't recall the definite article being applied to
Trans-Oranje. Does or did anyone speak of "the Trans-Atlantic"?

But when the Transkei and Ciskei became "independent homelands" or
"national states", the definite article suddenly became politically
incorrect.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

In message <a93e2h9e68bh5pje6ftrsmi09ot12im1n6@4ax.com> Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 10:31:23 -0500, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>>But seriously, I was educated about "The Argentine" in this group; I've
>>never (consciously) encountered it in real life, including TV and books,
>>and it still doesn't sound like a country to me.

> I can only recall hearing it once in the wild, from an English
> Anglican nun in 1981 or thereabouts. Another Englishwoman reliably
> informed me that the nun's family were "out of the top drawer".

I am pretty sure that in one of the Agath Christie novels some old guy
is talking about returning from The Argentine.

I have certainly heard it and read it, but it is always coming from some
19th century Brit (even if in the early 20th century) and puts me in
mind of Nigel Bruce's depiction of Dr Watson.

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=the+Argentine%2C+Argentina&year_start=1800&year_end=1960&corpus=29&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cthe%20Argentine%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CArgentina%3B%2Cc0>

or

<https://bit.ly/3pN9Gkg>

--
I don't talk about problems, I disintegrate them.

Lewis:

> I am pretty sure that in one of the Agath Christie novels
> some old guy is talking about returning from The Argen-
> tine.

Perhaps this guy still considered Argentine as a colony,
even as I routinely ask the bus driver to stop at sovkhoz
Podol'sky, although the sovkhoz is gone and the stop has
been renamed.

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