On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 11:07:05 AM UTC-8, JBrand wrote:
> On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 1:42:40 PM UTC-5, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > A quinta-feira, 16 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 01:21:25 UTC, jhigg....@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:56:34 AM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > A segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:37:09 UTC, dahe...@gmail.com escreveu:
> > > > > > I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
> > > > > > Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
> > > > > > Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
> > > > > > Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
> > > > > > Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
> > > > > > Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
> > > > > > Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
> > > > > > Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
> > > > > > Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
> > > > > > Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
> > > > > > Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
> > > > > > Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
> > > > > > Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
> > > > > > Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
> > > > > > Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
> > > > > > Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
> > > > > > Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld
> > > > > I checked all those on Wikitree and none appears to be substantiated.
> > > > > However, there is an upcoming article on a possible Henry II descent for Margery Olliver, mother of the Winslow brothers.
> > > > Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an upcoming article?
> > > Sorry. I hadn't noticed your reply. Martin Hollick informed me of this. It's by a friend of his who got a PhD in history and also loves genealogy. He wrote the article on Susannah Jackson White Winslow in 2018 in The American Genealogist. The upcoming article is presumably in the New England Historical and Genealogical Register, though
> > Thanks for this information. However, I've checked the table of contents for each issue of TAG in 2018 and I can find no indication of an article regarding Susannah Jackson White Winslow. The table of contents for each of the issues of TAG for 2018 can be found at this website (each is a PDF):
> > https://americangenealogist.com/contents/recent-issues/
> >
> > Can you help? Are you sure you've got the right magazine for the 2018 article?
> Oct. 2017 issue. The authors are Sue Allan, Caleb Johnson (FASG), and Simon Neal.

Thanks, John - I found the article.

A sábado, 18 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 18:42:40 UTC, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A quinta-feira, 16 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 01:21:25 UTC, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
> > > On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:56:34 AM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > A segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2021 à(s) 17:37:09 UTC, dahe...@gmail.com escreveu:
> > > > > I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
> > > > > Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
> > > > > Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton
> > > > >
> > > > > Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
> > > > > Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
> > > > > Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony
> > > > >
> > > > > Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
> > > > > Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
> > > > > Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger
> > > > >
> > > > > John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
> > > > > Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
> > > > > Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith
> > > > >
> > > > > Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
> > > > > Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
> > > > > Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis
> > > > >
> > > > > Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
> > > > > Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
> > > > > Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet
> > > > >
> > > > > James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
> > > > > Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
> > > > > Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne
> > > > >
> > > > > Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
> > > > > Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
> > > > > Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld
> > > > I checked all those on Wikitree and none appears to be substantiated.
> > > > However, there is an upcoming article on a possible Henry II descent for Margery Olliver, mother of the Winslow brothers.
> > > Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an upcoming article?
> > Sorry. I hadn't noticed your reply. Martin Hollick informed me of this. It's by a friend of his who got a PhD in history and also loves genealogy. He wrote the article on Susannah Jackson White Winslow in 2018 in The American Genealogist. The upcoming article is presumably in the New England Historical and Genealogical Register, though
> Thanks for this information. However, I've checked the table of contents for each issue of TAG in 2018 and I can find no indication of an article regarding Susannah Jackson White Winslow. The table of contents for each of the issues of TAG for 2018 can be found at this website (each is a PDF):
> https://americangenealogist.com/contents/recent-issues/
>
> Can you help? Are you sure you've got the right magazine for the 2018 article?

Sorry, Martin Hollick told me this in 2020 and said the article had been 3 years earlier. I counted from 2021 though, giving me 2018, instead of 2017.

On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 11:34:36 AM UTC, Olivier wrote:
> > > Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
> > > &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
> > I suggest that you junk (if online) or incinerate (if in print) wherever
> > you found these fictitious personages. Charles the Bald had no daughter
> > named Godehilde and there was no count of Maine ca 860-907 named
> > Godefroi. By his second marriage Charles had a daughter named Rothilde
> > who married count Roger, whose possession of Le Mans was briefly
> > interrupted when the city was entrusted to a count and royal constable
> > named Gauzlin (possibly twisted into the origin of your false Godefroi,
> > though certainly not of the long tenure ascribed to him).

> Source : https://www.theses.fr/2010LEMA3010

I was unable to search this doc, so couldnt find the maine connection. A lot
of the charts and trees look like theyve been copied from Settipani/Chaume etc
but without the dotted lines. However I think there is a carolingian descent
for the counts of Maine but via Rothildis the daughter of Richildis and
Charles the Bald who I believe is assumed to have married Rotgar/Roger II
of Le Mans, and their son was Hugo I of Maine. I'm not sure of the details but I
think it was Werner who established this. Perhaps someone with access
to the relevant volume of Karl der Grosse [1965] can confirm.

Mike

Le mardi 21 décembre 2021 à 16:02:24 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
> On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 11:34:36 AM UTC, Olivier wrote:
> > > > Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
> > > > &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
> > > I suggest that you junk (if online) or incinerate (if in print) wherever
> > > you found these fictitious personages. Charles the Bald had no daughter
> > > named Godehilde and there was no count of Maine ca 860-907 named
> > > Godefroi. By his second marriage Charles had a daughter named Rothilde
> > > who married count Roger, whose possession of Le Mans was briefly
> > > interrupted when the city was entrusted to a count and royal constable
> > > named Gauzlin (possibly twisted into the origin of your false Godefroi,
> > > though certainly not of the long tenure ascribed to him).
>
> > Source : https://www.theses.fr/2010LEMA3010
> I was unable to search this doc, so couldnt find the maine connection. A lot
> of the charts and trees look like theyve been copied from Settipani/Chaume etc
> but without the dotted lines. However I think there is a carolingian descent
> for the counts of Maine but via Rothildis the daughter of Richildis and
> Charles the Bald who I believe is assumed to have married Rotgar/Roger II
> of Le Mans, and their son was Hugo I of Maine. I'm not sure of the details but I
> think it was Werner who established this. Perhaps someone with access
> to the relevant volume of Karl der Grosse [1965] can confirm.
>
> Mike
There are 2 pdf :
http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf
http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf

Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:
> Le mardi 21 décembre 2021 à 16:02:24 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
> > On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 11:34:36 AM UTC, Olivier wrote:
> > > > > Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
> > > > > &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
> > > > I suggest that you junk (if online) or incinerate (if in print) wherever
> > > > you found these fictitious personages. Charles the Bald had no daughter
> > > > named Godehilde and there was no count of Maine ca 860-907 named
> > > > Godefroi. By his second marriage Charles had a daughter named Rothilde
> > > > who married count Roger, whose possession of Le Mans was briefly
> > > > interrupted when the city was entrusted to a count and royal constable
> > > > named Gauzlin (possibly twisted into the origin of your false Godefroi,
> > > > though certainly not of the long tenure ascribed to him).
> >
> > > Source : https://www.theses.fr/2010LEMA3010
> > I was unable to search this doc, so couldnt find the maine connection. A lot
> > of the charts and trees look like theyve been copied from Settipani/Chaume etc
> > but without the dotted lines. However I think there is a carolingian descent
> > for the counts of Maine but via Rothildis the daughter of Richildis and
> > Charles the Bald who I believe is assumed to have married Rotgar/Roger II
> > of Le Mans, and their son was Hugo I of Maine. I'm not sure of the details but I
> > think it was Werner who established this. Perhaps someone with access
> > to the relevant volume of Karl der Grosse [1965] can confirm.
> >
> > Mike
> There are 2 pdf :
> http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf
> http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf

Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
Not something you browse easily through.
Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).

Hans Vogels

On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 2:38:47 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:
> > There are 2 pdf :
> > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf
> > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf
> Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
> Not something you browse easily through.
> Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).

There is plenty of reason for skepticism here. The thesis has a huge number of very sweeping conclusions regarding a large number of thinly documented individuals, many of whom have been the subject of considerable controversy and/or alternate mutually contradictory theories. A variation of the old "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" warning would be appropriate here.

Stewart Baldwin

On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 3:46:35 AM UTC, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 2:38:47 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:
> > > There are 2 pdf :
> > > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf
> > > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf
> > Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
> > Not something you browse easily through.
> > Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).
> There is plenty of reason for skepticism here. The thesis has a huge number of very sweeping conclusions regarding a large number of thinly documented individuals, many of whom have been the subject of considerable controversy and/or alternate mutually contradictory theories. A variation of the old "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" warning would be appropriate here.
>

Sifting through this is like entering a sort of onomastic hell! However I dont think
this author is the source for the Carolingian-Maine-Gatinais connection as proposed
earlier. The origin of the Counts of the Gatinais who became ancestors of the
plantagenets is a vexed question with a number of theories being proposed.

I hadnt seen the Charles the Bald -- supposed daughter -- Count of Maine ---
Count of Gatinais theory before, but Doumerc the author here proposes something
quite different. He mentions Settipani's theory that the origin of the Gatinais family
was Gausfred Count of Nevers 935-40, who was maybe the same as a contemporary
viscount of Orleans, but he suggests a very different ancestry for Gausfred..

Instead Doumerc [p579-83] says Gausfred was descended from Bernard Marquis
de Gothia 865-78 [d880]. He says BdG was father of a woman called Ema who had
a quarrel with Adalgar Bishop of Autun in 889. This Ema he says was the same as
the Hemmena wife of a Waldric who were the parents of Waldric bishop of Auxerre
918-33. Gausfred of Nevers was Bishop Waldrics brother. He then postulates that
Gausbert Bishop of Nevers 948-55 was another brother, and a another was called
Bernard. Furthermore, Eva the wife of Gausfred of Nevers was the niece of William
the Pious, which he references from Settipani's work on Aquitaine which I havnt
seen. This is rather dense reading matter so I hope I havnt misrepresented
anything.

This all seems highly speculative. Plus I believe Gausbert bishop of Nevers
is called the brother of Guy Bishop of Auxerre 933-61, and Guys parents are
named as Boso and Abigail in the Deeds of the Bishops of Auxerre, something
Doumerc mentions but disregards. Often these sort of works seem to confuse
matters further rather than clarifying.

Despite this in arbre 103 & 104 in vol2, he has, I assume, Settipani's version of
Gausfred of Nevers descent:

Gausfred of Maine d878
| Gausfred I vct of Orleans 885/6
| Gausfred II vct of Orleans, Count of Nevers & Auxerre 935-36

In arbre 99 there is also this

Ermentrude [sister of Charles the simple] m Count Gausbert fl912
| Cunegunde m Wigeric

Merry Xmas

Mike

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 1:48:05 PM UTC-5, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> This looks to me like the table of contents from Gary Boyd Roberts' _Royal Descents of 900 Immigrants_, with everyone who arrived after about 1700 removed. There are a few additions or differences (for instance, Humphrey Warren is not shown in RD900 with a royal line, though Gary provides a brief discussion of the problems with the claimed line). Notice that the French Canadians in Gary's book have been interspersed at the appropriate alphabetical point.

So there are "problems" with Humphrey Warren's line? I thought that line was pretty solid and well-documented.

~Gail

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 10:32:05 AM UTC-5, Gail Peterson wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 1:48:05 PM UTC-5, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > This looks to me like the table of contents from Gary Boyd Roberts' _Royal Descents of 900 Immigrants_, with everyone who arrived after about 1700 removed. There are a few additions or differences (for instance, Humphrey Warren is not shown in RD900 with a royal line, though Gary provides a brief discussion of the problems with the claimed line). Notice that the French Canadians in Gary's book have been interspersed at the appropriate alphabetical point.
>
> So there are "problems" with Humphrey Warren's line? I thought that line was pretty solid and well-documented.
>
> ~Gail
Never mind--I found the previous discussion on the subject. Sorry for jumping the gun here..
~Gail