Thomas atte Towne (Toune, Town, etc.), of Towne Place, Throwley, Kent, represented Kent in Parliament in 1420.[1] As Thomas atte Toune of Drowleye, he, [his mother] Beneditta Betenham of Cranderoke, and others sued in Common Pleas in 1422.[2] He had died by 1427, when Joan Toune widow of Thomas Toune sued Stephen Bouns of Threulegh, husbandman, and John Grymmesham of Faveresham, brewer for debt.[3] Thomas's three daughters Elizabeth wife of William Sonde, Benedicta wife of William Watton, and Alianora wife of Richard Leukenore are identified in a Common Pleas lawsuit from 1440.[4]

He is ancestor of early Virginia immigrant Capt. Francis Epes. Attempts to place Daniel Epes of New England into this family, which have not been successful, were previously discussed here: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/WreJUj7KlCc/m/rxilstWTAgAJ

The question is - who was Joane the wife of Thomas atte Towne? Sixteenth- and seventeenth-century heralds repeatedly called her a Cheyne, variously describing her as the daughter of John Cheyne [I can't identify this person],[5] William Cheyne [MP for Kent 1416],[6] or William's father Richard Cheyne [b. c1352].[7]

William Cheyne's will, written in 1441, was registered in the Archbishop of Canterbury's register. He only names two children: John and Eleanor.[8]

The earliest visitation pedigree I’ve seen on the family, taken in Berkshire in 1532, about 100 years after Joane’s life, states: ‘Joane vx : Tho : Atrown, Towne, of whom com{es} Somes {Sondes}’ is identified as the daughter of ‘Sr Richard Cheney of Sherland Kt 10 yeares old 36 : Edw : 3 [1362-3]’ by ‘Margery da: & coheire of Robert Crall of Crall in Com. Sussex & Margarett his wife da : & h : of Symon Peplasham.’[9]

In the 1574 Visitation of Kent, it was recorded ‘William Sandes of Lingfield=Elizabeth daughter and coheire [heir] of Tho: at Towne of Throwld [Throwley].’ He states further that ‘Thomas Towne=Joane daughter and heire of Willm Cheyney [Richard Cheyne of Sheppey].’ Bannerman, the editor, changed Joane’s father from ‘Willm’ to ‘Richard.’ Bannerman also concludes that the Cheyney arms were mistakenly omitted from the pedigree.[10]

Stained glass at the church in Nettlestead, Kent, which has been intensely studied, and which is estimated to have been created in the 1430s, includes the arms of this Thomas atte Towne, next to members of Richard Cheyne’s family.[11] That source would be contemporary, but no statements are made about how the depicted people are related. John Pympe, identified as Richard Cheyne’s son-in-law in some of the visitation pedigrees,[7] was lord of Nettlestead manor and had advowson at the time.

William Sonde was a residuary legatee in the will of William Cheyne clerk son of William Cheyne knight in 1430.[12] William Sondes is also stated to have been described as a cousin in the father William Cheyne knight’s will in the 1440s.[13] Neither of these two Williams are identical to the MP for Kent.[14]

I know these families have been studied before. Has anyone found additional evidence concerning the paternity of Joane wife of Thomas atte Towne? Would you consider the evidence presented in this post sufficient to prove she was the daughter of Richard Cheyne? Thanks for your expertise.

References:
[1] Thomas Town in HoP http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/town-thomas
[2] AALT index http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40no647/CP40no647Pl.htm
[3] AALT index https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40/664 ; original records http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no664/aCP40no664fronts/IMG_0415.htm and http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no664/aCP40no664fronts/IMG_0819.htm
[4] G. Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls ([1905?]), 371 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark:/13960/t6542rp7k&view=1up&seq=381&skin=2021 ; CP40no717 index http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40no717/CP40no717Pl.htm ; CP40no717 dorse 1262 image http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no717/bCP40no717dorses/IMG_1262.htm
[5] Frederic Augustus Blaydes, The Visitations of Bedfordshire, Annis Domini 1566, 1582, and 1634. Made by William Harvey, Esq., Clarencieux King of Arms, Robert Cooke, Esq., Clarencieux King of Arms, and George Owen, Esq., York Herald, as Deputy for Sir Richard St. George, Kt., Clarencieux King of Arms … (London, 1884), 15 https://archive.org/details/visitationsofbed1921harv/page/n35/mode/2up?view=theater
[6] W. Bruce Bannerman, ed., The Visitations of Kent, Taken in the Years 1574 and 1592 by Robert Cooke, Clarenceux, Harl. Soc. Pubs., Visitation Ser. 74-75 (London, 1924), 2:32-34 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015039595601&view=1up&seq=50&skin=2021; William Cheyne in HoP http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/cheyne-william-1441
[7] W. Harry Rylands, ed., The Four Visitations of Berkshire, 1532, 1566, 1623, 1665-6, Harl. Soc. Pubs., Visitation Ser. 56-57 (London, 1908), 2:102-103 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101072869470&view=1up&seq=127&skin=2021; CIPM Ed III 1361-1365:240-241 https://archive.org/details/cu31924011387895/page/240/mode/2up?view=theater Robert Cheyne, knight, IPM, writ 6 Mar 36 Ed III [1361/2], inq. taken 12 April 36 Ed III [1362], d. 7 Nov. last [1361]. IPM year apparently incorrectly published as 38 Ed III in W. Bruce Bannerman, ed., Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica, 4th Ser., 3 (1910):314 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS8X-9Z2G?i=185&cat=244051 ; Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2013), 3:423.
[8] E.F. Jacob, ed., The Register of Henry Chichele Archbishop of Canterbury 1414-1443, Cant. and York Soc. Pubs. 42, 45-47 (Oxford, 1937-1947), 2:584-585 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSZX-S3KY?cat=112575 ; original register 1:475 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C396-QB7X?i=497&cat=553600
[9] W. Harry Rylands, ed., The Four Visitations of Berkshire, 1532, 1566, 1623, 1665-6, Harl. Soc. Pubs., Visitation Ser. 56-57 (London, 1908), 2:102-103 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101072869470&view=1up&seq=127&skin=2021
[10] W. Bruce Bannerman, ed., The Visitations of Kent, Taken in the Years 1574 and 1592 by Robert Cooke, Clarenceux, Harl. Soc. Pubs., Visitation Ser. 74-75 (London, 1924), 2:32-34 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp..39015039595601&view=1up&seq=50&skin=2021.
[11] W.E. Ball in ‘The Stained-Glass Windows of Nettlestead Church,’ Archæologia Cantiana 28 (1909):157-250, at 205-206 https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/arch-cant/vol/28/stained-glass-windows-nettlestead-church ; Oliver Fearon, ‘Fragile Lords: Gender, Gentility and Coats of Arms in English Domestic Stained Glass, c.1450-1560,’ thesis, Univ. of York, 2019, https://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/27740/ (color photographs are in part 2)
[12] PCC 13 Luffenam https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/869366:5111?tid=&pid=&queryId=aff6cb18646ac41ce4c96da5b21d3ede&_phsrc=UZP150&_phstart=successSource
[13] Testamenta Vetusta, 249 https://archive.org/details/testamentavetust01nico/page/249/mode/1up?view=theater
[14] Biography of Judge William Cheyne, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Cheyne_(judge)

Nathan

I'm known for my asides so
Aubrey has this same family, but omits a generation from what the Vis Kent 1574 states

http://books.google.com/books?id=5KJbAAAAQAAJ&dq=anthony%20sands%20of%20throwley&pg=PA66#v=onepage&q=anthony%20sands%20of%20throwley&f=false

On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 7:39:31 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
> I'm known for my asides so
> Aubrey has this same family, but omits a generation from what the Vis Kent 1574 states
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=5KJbAAAAQAAJ&dq=anthony%20sands%20of%20throwley&pg=PA66#v=onepage&q=anthony%20sands%20of%20throwley&f=false

By the way, this family to also ancestral to Princess Diana and to Sarah Ferguson Duchess of York

> By the way, this family to also ancestral to Princess Diana and to Sarah Ferguson Duchess of York

All new to me. Thanks Will.

> The earliest visitation pedigree I’ve seen on the family, taken in Berkshire in 1532, about 100 years after Joane’s life, states: ‘Joane vx : Tho : Atrown, Towne, of whom com{es} Somes {Sondes}’ is identified as the daughter of ‘Sr Richard Cheney of Sherland Kt 10 yeares old 36 : Edw : 3 [1362-3]’ by ‘Margery da: & coheire of Robert Crall of Crall in Com. Sussex & Margarett his wife da : & h : of Symon Peplasham.’[9]

I'm mistaken, the Berkshire pedigree wasn't created in 1532, it is from Harl. MS 1532, which was created at a later date. https://archive.org/details/CatalogueOfTheHarleianManuscripts2/page/n127/mode/2up?view=theater

On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 6:12:26 PM UTC-8, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thomas atte Towne (Toune, Town, etc.), of Towne Place, Throwley, Kent, . .. . .
[snip]
> He had died by 1427, when Joan Toune widow of Thomas Toune sued Stephen Bouns
> of Threulegh, husbandman, and John Grymmesham of Faveresham, brewer for debt.[3]

Looks to have been by 1424, if it is the same man here:

Lambeth Palace Library, CM 31/145
"Scheldwych, Sunday next before the Feast of St. Margaret the Virgin, 2 Hen.. VI. Richard atte Lese of Faversham grants to William Langele and John Cely a piece of land of 3 virgates with appurtenances, lately acquired by gift and feoffment from John Laget, in the par. of Sheldwych, bounded by the King's street on the E., the lands of the heirs of Thomas atte Towne on the S.. and W., and land of John Salamon on the N. Warranty against all men. Witnesses: John Salamon, Thomas Skot, William Gylys, Thomas Lagit, Reginald att' Sole, and many others."

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/1f874bf5-78c8-4133-9db5-765346a29c72

> Would you consider the evidence presented in this post sufficient to prove she was the daughter
> of Richard Cheyne?

No. A decent case, but not a proven one, particularly with the only primary source giving the relationship being from the 17th century, and we can't be sure Bannerman's 'correction' doesn't derive from this source, so we really can't be sure.

taf

Yes.

Reginald /Sands/ of Throwley, co Kent
by his wife Elizabeth /Watno/
had a son
Anthony /Sands/ of Throwley, co Kent
born by 1515
living in 1543

he married Joanna /Fiennes/
daughter of John /Fiennes/ , Chief Justice of the King's Bench (he born 1435/1439)

I have three children for this last couple although they may have had more
Elizabeth /Sands/ bur 1585 "Aged 53" St John's, Clerkenwell m Maurice de /Berkeley/ , Knt
Thomas /Sondes/ of Throwley, co Kent; Knt < 1585; born 1544 eldest son d 1593

On Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 6:43:08 AM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
> Yes.
>
> Reginald /Sands/ of Throwley, co Kent
> by his wife Elizabeth /Watno/
> had a son
> Anthony /Sands/ of Throwley, co Kent
> born by 1515
> living in 1543
>
> he married Joanna /Fiennes/
> daughter of John /Fiennes/ , Chief Justice of the King's Bench (he born 1435/1439)
>
> I have three children for this last couple although they may have had more
> Elizabeth /Sands/ bur 1585 "Aged 53" St John's, Clerkenwell m Maurice de /Berkeley/ , Knt
> Thomas /Sondes/ of Throwley, co Kent; Knt < 1585; born 1544 eldest son d 1593

have three children for this last couple although they may have had more
* Elizabeth /Sands/ bur 1585 "Aged 53" St John's, Clerkenwell m Maurice de /Berkeley/ , Knt
* Thomas /Sondes/ of Throwley, co Kent; Knt < 1585; born 1544 eldest son d 1593 m1 Cicely /Tufton/ dead by 1584 m2 Margaret /Brooke/ Nov 1584 daughter of George Brooke, 9th Lord /Cobham/ and Anne /Bray/
* Michael /Sondes/ of Sheldwich -1576-1587-; Knt > 1587; Bnt living in 1587 m Mary /Finch/ Sole heiress of her father George /Finch/ of Norton, co Kent; esq

This last couple descends to Camilla the Duchess of Cornwall

However Thomas Sondes, the eldest son above descends to both Sarah Ferguson and Diana
His wife Margaret Brooke is a Cecil5 and therefore within my radar as well, which is why this cluster is in my database

On Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 6:49:28 AM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
> On Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 6:43:08 AM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
> > Yes.
> >
> > Reginald /Sands/ of Throwley, co Kent
> > by his wife Elizabeth /Watno/
> > had a son
> > Anthony /Sands/ of Throwley, co Kent
> > born by 1515
> > living in 1543
> >
> > he married Joanna /Fiennes/
> > daughter of John /Fiennes/ , Chief Justice of the King's Bench (he born 1435/1439)
> >
> > I have three children for this last couple although they may have had more
> > Elizabeth /Sands/ bur 1585 "Aged 53" St John's, Clerkenwell m Maurice de /Berkeley/ , Knt
> > Thomas /Sondes/ of Throwley, co Kent; Knt < 1585; born 1544 eldest son d 1593
>
> have three children for this last couple although they may have had more
> * Elizabeth /Sands/ bur 1585 "Aged 53" St John's, Clerkenwell m Maurice de /Berkeley/ , Knt
> * Thomas /Sondes/ of Throwley, co Kent; Knt < 1585; born 1544 eldest son d 1593 m1 Cicely /Tufton/ dead by 1584 m2 Margaret /Brooke/ Nov 1584 daughter of George Brooke, 9th Lord /Cobham/ and Anne /Bray/
> * Michael /Sondes/ of Sheldwich -1576-1587-; Knt > 1587; Bnt living in 1587 m Mary /Finch/ Sole heiress of her father George /Finch/ of Norton, co Kent; esq
>
> This last couple descends to Camilla the Duchess of Cornwall
>
> However Thomas Sondes, the eldest son above descends to both Sarah Ferguson and Diana
> His wife Margaret Brooke is a Cecil5 and therefore within my radar as well, which is why this cluster is in my database

For *clarity* since we just had a two hundred post review of proper and scandalous *birth dating* techniques... I should point out that Anthony was born *by* 1515 *!Because!* his child Elizabeth when she was buried in 1585 is called "aged 53" and there's no other reason I've given Anthony that *by 1515* moniker

There is a small correction here in this pedigree.
It states that Elizabeth married Thomas Waller "son and heir" of his father Sir Walter Waller

Sir Thomas was the "second son" and although he obtained Groomsbridge, it was by *purchase* of his father and not because he was the heir

Wikipedia has the erroneous claim that the elder son Sir George Waller died *in* 1622 which is not correct
Genealogics has specific dates for Sir George of 1577-1604 which I think is possibly as well not correct, Leo cites two works which really aren't specific enough to this question to ensure they are accurate

It *is* known that Sir George Waller's son Hardres Waller was born exactly in 1604 and so probably that last should be that Sir George was *living* in 1604 not dead then

BHO does not call as well call Thomas the "heir" of his father, only "the son" when discussing that he obtained this land.

On Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 7:15:03 AM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
> There is a small correction here in this pedigree.
> It states that Elizabeth married Thomas Waller "son and heir" of his father Sir Walter Waller
>
> Sir Thomas was the "second son" and although he obtained Groomsbridge, it was by *purchase* of his father and not because he was the heir
>
> Wikipedia has the erroneous claim that the elder son Sir George Waller died *in* 1622 which is not correct
> Genealogics has specific dates for Sir George of 1577-1604 which I think is possibly as well not correct, Leo cites two works which really aren't specific enough to this question to ensure they are accurate
>
> It *is* known that Sir George Waller's son Hardres Waller was born exactly in 1604 and so probably that last should be that Sir George was *living* in 1604 not dead then
>
> BHO does not call as well call Thomas the "heir" of his father, only "the son" when discussing that he obtained this land.

Ireland has it correct
https://books.google.com/books?id=Cg0HAAAAQAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=sir%20george%20waller%20hardres&pg=PA451#v=onepage&q=sir%20george%20waller%20hardres&f=false

Burkes also gives us that
Mary /Hardres/ was the daughter of Richard /Hardres/ of Hardres
who clearly seems to be the same person as
Richard /Hardres/ , Sheriff co Kent 30Eliz (1587-8)
heir of his father Thomas /Hardres/ of Hardres, co Kent; esq

Burke's tells us that Mary married firstly Cheyney /Hales/ who d 18 Mar 1596

https://books.google.com/books?id=4KRAAAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=sir%20george%20waller%20hardres&pg=PA233#v=onepage&q=sir%20george%20waller%20hardres&f=false

and they had a son James /Hales/ of Dungeon , Knt
pushing back Mary's birth range, and her mother Mary Wroth's as well

Mary married *thirdly* to George /Waller/ of Groomsbridge, Knt; G
so this pushes forward their marriage possibly into a range where it can be found in the IGI 1598-1603

It seems to me that this is apropos of a marriage settlement

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/d664eeec-7385-4cf5-b5af-d45deb438133

Note that Burke's (cited above) has Mary Hardres second husband as a William Ashenden

It is also curious that other than Anthony Sandes, here reciting in say 1594 ? that
Thomas /Waller/ of Groomsbridge, Kent -1601-; lieutenant of Dover Castle; Knt; MP Dover
married Elizabeth

no one else seems to have this marriage
instead only citing his marriage to Margaret /Lennard/ bap 28 Sep 1578 Sevenoaks, co Kent

for example note Genealogics does not have this first? or second? marriage for Thomas

> > Would you consider the evidence presented in this post sufficient to prove she was the daughter
> > of Richard Cheyne?
> No. A decent case, but not a proven one, particularly with the only primary source giving the relationship being from the 17th century, and we can't be sure Bannerman's 'correction' doesn't derive from this source, so we really can't be sure.
>
> taf

Would a dispensation be required for a man to marry his daughter's husband's sister?

Nathan

On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 7:19:46 PM UTC-8, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Would you consider the evidence presented in this post sufficient to prove she was the daughter
> > > of Richard Cheyne?
> > No. A decent case, but not a proven one, particularly with the only primary source giving the
> > relationship being from the 17th century, and we can't be sure Bannerman's 'correction' doesn't
> > derive from this source, so we really can't be sure.
>
> Would a dispensation be required for a man to marry his daughter's husband's sister?

As I understand it, afiliation by marriage did come into play, but this did not extend to the relatives of the affiliate - e.g. a woman could not marry her daughter's husband, since he was 'her son' by marriage, but that would not extend to his brothers who were not directly related to her by blood or marriage.

taf

On Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 6:43:08 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> Yes.
>
> Reginald /Sands/ of Throwley, co Kent
> by his wife Elizabeth /Watno/
> had a son
> Anthony /Sands/ of Throwley, co Kent
> born by 1515
> living in 1543
>
> he married Joanna /Fiennes/
> daughter of John /Fiennes/ , Chief Justice of the King's Bench (he born 1435/1439)
>
> I have three children for this last couple although they may have had more
> Elizabeth /Sands/ bur 1585 "Aged 53" St John's, Clerkenwell m Maurice de /Berkeley/ , Knt
> Thomas /Sondes/ of Throwley, co Kent; Knt < 1585; born 1544 eldest son d 1593

Check your sources (which you didn't cite)..

Reginald Sandes was the grandfather, not the father, of Anthony Sandes. And the Watno wife belongs to the intervening Sondes generation - and her name was Alice, not Elizabeth.

I assume you're familiar with the standard sources for Kent genealogies. Three sources provide the same information on the Sondes pedigree (including these corrections) - one of which is referenced earlier in this thread.

On Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 8:10:33 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> It seems to me that this is apropos of a marriage settlement
>
> https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/d664eeec-7385-4cf5-b5af-d45deb438133
>
> Note that Burke's (cited above) has Mary Hardres second husband as a William Ashenden
>
>
> It is also curious that other than Anthony Sandes, here reciting in say 1594 ? that
> Thomas /Waller/ of Groomsbridge, Kent -1601-; lieutenant of Dover Castle; Knt; MP Dover
> married Elizabeth
>
> no one else seems to have this marriage
> instead only citing his marriage to Margaret /Lennard/ bap 28 Sep 1578 Sevenoaks, co Kent
>
> for example note Genealogics does not have this first? or second? marriage for Thomas
What exactly IS your source for this supposed marriage of Thomas Waller of Groombridge and whoever this Elizabeth was? FWIW Thomas Waller's bio in HOP 1604-1629 says that he married ONLY Margaret Lennard.

On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 7:39:31 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm known for my asides so
> Aubrey has this same family, but omits a generation from what the Vis Kent 1574 states
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=5KJbAAAAQAAJ&dq=anthony%20sands%20of%20throwley&pg=PA66#v=onepage&q=anthony%20sands%20of%20throwley&f=false
Aubrey is wrong - and two other Kent sources match what the 1574 Kent visitation says.