On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 10:42:55 -0600, Mark Brader wrote:

> Peter Duncanson quotes https://www.lexico.com/definition/shambolic
>>
>> shambolic informal mainly British
>>
>> Chaotic, disorganized, or mismanaged.
>>
>> Origin 1970s from shambles, probably on the pattern of symbolic.
>
> Interesting. Coming across this word in British writing, I'd always
> assumed that it additionally implied that the thing described was a
> sham. That is, it meant something purportedly well done but in fact
> disorganized, mismanaged, etc.

Back in the mid-19th century there was a Shambles in Cape Town. It was a
kind open-air butchery, where meat was displayed for sale.

I believe the original was in York, England, where there was a street
called, I've heard, "The Shambles" or something like, where meat was
likewise displayed for sale. I understood the etymology to refer to the
tables or counters on which the meat was displayed.

--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 10:42:55 -0600, Mark Brader wrote:
>
> > Peter Duncanson quotes https://www.lexico.com/definition/shambolic
> >>
> >> shambolic informal mainly British
> >>
> >> Chaotic, disorganized, or mismanaged.
> >>
> >> Origin 1970s from shambles, probably on the pattern of symbolic.
> >
> > Interesting. Coming across this word in British writing, I'd always
> > assumed that it additionally implied that the thing described was a
> > sham. That is, it meant something purportedly well done but in fact
> > disorganized, mismanaged, etc.
>
> Back in the mid-19th century there was a Shambles in Cape Town. It was a
> kind open-air butchery, where meat was displayed for sale.
>
> I believe the original was in York, England, where there was a street
> called, I've heard, "The Shambles" or something like, where meat was
> likewise displayed for sale. I understood the etymology to refer to the
> tables or counters on which the meat was displayed.

From Middle Dutch 'schamel' supposedly from Latin 'scamellum',
(beware, 'schamel' has more meanings)

Jan

On 12/03/2022 11:22 am, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 10:42:55 -0600, Mark Brader wrote:
>
>> Peter Duncanson quotes https://www.lexico.com/definition/shambolic
>>>
>>> shambolic informal mainly British
>>>
>>> Chaotic, disorganized, or mismanaged.
>>>
>>> Origin 1970s from shambles, probably on the pattern of symbolic.
>>
>> Interesting. Coming across this word in British writing, I'd always
>> assumed that it additionally implied that the thing described was a
>> sham. That is, it meant something purportedly well done but in fact
>> disorganized, mismanaged, etc.
>
> Back in the mid-19th century there was a Shambles in Cape Town. It was a
> kind open-air butchery, where meat was displayed for sale.
>
> I believe the original was in York, England, where there was a street
> called, I've heard, "The Shambles" or something like

Wikipedia: "There are streets named "The Shambles" in other UK towns and
cities including Bradford on Avon, Chesterfield, Guildford, Swansea,
Chippenham, Manchester, Sevenoaks, Whitby, Worcester and Armagh. There
is also a Fishamble Street in Dublin."

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

In message <t0hvpa$qr4$2@dont-email.me> Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> Back in the mid-19th century there was a Shambles in Cape Town. It was a
> kind open-air butchery, where meat was displayed for sale.

> I believe the original was in York, England, where there was a street
> called, I've heard, "The Shambles"

Yes, this is correct, though there are and were other "Shambles".

> something like, where meat was likewise displayed for sale. I
> understood the etymology to refer to the tables or counters on which
> the meat was displayed.

The street still exists, but there are no butchers there (according to
Wikip)

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shambles>

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Well, I think so, Brain, but first you'd have to take that whole
bridge apart, wouldn't you?"

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 11:47:56 +0000, Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk>
wrote:

>On 12/03/2022 11:22 am, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 10:42:55 -0600, Mark Brader wrote:
>>
>>> Peter Duncanson quotes https://www.lexico.com/definition/shambolic
>>>>
>>>> shambolic informal mainly British
>>>>
>>>> Chaotic, disorganized, or mismanaged.
>>>>
>>>> Origin 1970s from shambles, probably on the pattern of symbolic.
>>>
>>> Interesting. Coming across this word in British writing, I'd always
>>> assumed that it additionally implied that the thing described was a
>>> sham. That is, it meant something purportedly well done but in fact
>>> disorganized, mismanaged, etc.
>>
>> Back in the mid-19th century there was a Shambles in Cape Town. It was a
>> kind open-air butchery, where meat was displayed for sale.
>>
>> I believe the original was in York, England, where there was a street
>> called, I've heard, "The Shambles" or something like
>
>Wikipedia: "There are streets named "The Shambles" in other UK towns and
>cities including Bradford on Avon, Chesterfield, Guildford, Swansea,
>Chippenham, Manchester, Sevenoaks, Whitby, Worcester and Armagh. There
>is also a Fishamble Street in Dublin."

I used to live in Manchester and I visited Shambles Square in that city:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shambles_Square,_Manchester#Etymology

"Shambles" was a name originally used for a street of butchers shops
where meat was slaughtered and sold. It is derived from the Middle
English word schamel, which meant a bench, as for displaying meat
for sale. A shambles would have had blood, pieces of meat and offal
running down the gutter, and although the original meaning of the
word fell into disuse, it survived as a word meaning a scene of
disorder. There are also streets known as the Shambles in other
towns in the United Kingdom, such as York, Stroud, Worcester,
Sevenoaks, Chesterfield and Armagh, and a public house in
Lutterworth which was once a butcher's shop and abattoir.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

On 12-Mar-22 12:18, Lewis wrote:
> In message <t0hvpa$qr4$2@dont-email.me> Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> Back in the mid-19th century there was a Shambles in Cape Town. It was a
>> kind open-air butchery, where meat was displayed for sale.
>
>> I believe the original was in York, England, where there was a street
>> called, I've heard, "The Shambles"
>
> Yes, this is correct, though there are and were other "Shambles".
>
>> something like, where meat was likewise displayed for sale. I
>> understood the etymology to refer to the tables or counters on which
>> the meat was displayed.
>
> The street still exists, but there are no butchers there (according to
> Wikip)
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shambles>

It has been filled with shops offering tourist tat for these many years.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022, at 12:33:35, J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>
>Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 10:42:55 -0600, Mark Brader wrote:
>> > Peter Duncanson quotes https://www.lexico.com/definition/shambolic
>> >>
>> >> shambolic informal mainly British
>> >> Chaotic, disorganized, or mismanaged.
>> >> Origin 1970s from shambles, probably on the pattern of symbolic.
>> >
>> > Interesting. Coming across this word in British writing, I'd always
>> > assumed that it additionally implied that the thing described was a
>> > sham. That is, it meant something purportedly well done but in fact
>> > disorganized, mismanaged, etc.
>>
>> Back in the mid-19th century there was a Shambles in Cape Town. It was a
>> kind open-air butchery, where meat was displayed for sale.
>>
>> I believe the original was in York, England, where there was a street
>> called, I've heard, "The Shambles" or something like, where meat was
>> likewise displayed for sale. I understood the etymology to refer to the
>> tables or counters on which the meat was displayed.
>
>From Middle Dutch 'schamel' supposedly from Latin 'scamellum',
>(beware, 'schamel' has more meanings)
>
A more comprehensive view says: "[ORIGIN Old English sc(e)amul = Old
Saxon (fot)skamel, Old High German (fuo[z])scamil footstool (also Middle
Dutch, Middle High German schamel, schemel, German Schemel), from West
Germanic from Latin scamellum dim. of scamnum bench.]"
--
Paul

Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022, at 12:33:35, J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>
> >Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 10:42:55 -0600, Mark Brader wrote:
> >> > Peter Duncanson quotes https://www.lexico.com/definition/shambolic
> >> >>
> >> >> shambolic informal mainly British
> >> >> Chaotic, disorganized, or mismanaged.
> >> >> Origin 1970s from shambles, probably on the pattern of symbolic.
> >> >
> >> > Interesting. Coming across this word in British writing, I'd always
> >> > assumed that it additionally implied that the thing described was a
> >> > sham. That is, it meant something purportedly well done but in fact
> >> > disorganized, mismanaged, etc.
> >>
> >> Back in the mid-19th century there was a Shambles in Cape Town. It was a
> >> kind open-air butchery, where meat was displayed for sale.
> >>
> >> I believe the original was in York, England, where there was a street
> >> called, I've heard, "The Shambles" or something like, where meat was
> >> likewise displayed for sale. I understood the etymology to refer to the
> >> tables or counters on which the meat was displayed.
> >
> >From Middle Dutch 'schamel' supposedly from Latin 'scamellum',
> >(beware, 'schamel' has more meanings)
> >
> A more comprehensive view says: "[ORIGIN Old English sc(e)amul = Old
> Saxon (fot)skamel, Old High German (fuo[z])scamil footstool (also Middle
> Dutch, Middle High German schamel, schemel, German Schemel), from West
> Germanic from Latin scamellum dim. of scamnum bench.]"

Always the same with those 'old Germanic' words.
Found all over the place, and there is no way of finding out
who influenced what or when.
Even if it was written down somewhere it is largely a matter of chance
which pieces of manuscript survived.

Jan