On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 8:11:38 PM UTC-4, mytra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 4:37:38 AM UTC-6, Andrew Z wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 8:11:39 PM UTC-4, FemmeFenrir wrote:
> > > Will, thank you for posting that link and Brad, thank you for the update! That's too bad that there was no matching record in the 1479 Close Roll. Also, Steve, thanks for sharing the information about the Berkley lines to Edward I - I only explored one previously.
> > >
> > > I noticed that in some of the earlier discussions there were references to the images of the 1530 Dennis pedigree - would someone be able to share a copy of it (in high resolution, if possible)? I'd love to have a copy for my records and would be curious to take a closer look at some of the coat of arms in it. Many thanks!
> > Thank you Will and Brad, as well as all the others who contributed to the discussion.
> >
> > Here is the link to the photos of the 1520 Dennis pedigree from The Family History Book by Stella Colwell (pg.15) and The Herald's Commemorative Exhibition 1484-1934 (plate XLIV).
> > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1LsZxKcS7r92l70RP89-s0kH3l1i18dh3
> >
> > Maurice Denys' first wife is named as Johanna Stradlyng; however her coat of arms, a chevron between three roses, does not appear on the coat of arms of Sir Edward Stradling's grandson (https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/95669d86-7fe8-3762-a422-f55d267e97ce/Thomas-d1480-and-Elizabeth-d1533-Stradlinge/?field0=string&value0=stradling&field1=with_images&value1=1&index=3), although there was a somewhat similar Stradling arms variation: paly of six, on a chevron three cinquefoil (https://archive.org/details/memorialsofdanve00macn/page/n31/mode/2up).
> >
> > Any insight on identifying these arms (chevron between three roses) would be welcome.
> >
> > I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter, implying that she was legitimate and a heraldic heiress (i.e. she had no brothers), which might have implications for the possible maternity of Sir Walter. However, the assumption that the arms in the 4th quarter are those of his mother rests solely on the 1520 Dennis pedigree and should be confirmed by the College of Arms, along with the possibility of her being a heraldic heiress. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Denys_funerary_brass%2C_Saint_Mary_the_Virgin%2C_Olveston%2C_Gloucestershire%2C_England_-_20090920.jpg)
> Just for clarity, cinquefoils are in the rose family and may be confused with roses in arms (especially when quartered). I can't add to the overall discussion here, but the question should be "why are the arms differenced?" The answer might be with the order of succession. Was Edward the grandson the oldest grandson, etc.? Was his father the oldest son? If there were older brothers in either generation (depending on when they died), it might have forced the younger to assume a permanently differenced set of arms? Thus, you might have a pretty clear trail for the reason behind the "paly of six, on a chevron Three cinquefoil (roses). Okay, I'll go back to just reading what you guys say. Cheers,
> Kevan

Hi Kevan, thank you for your response, that's a great point! My initial thought that it was a corruption of the cinquefoil flower since the only arms with three roses between a chevron that I came across so far is that of Wadham in Devon, but I don't see a connection there.

In the Memorials of the Danvers Family, it says "Amongst the Glamorganshire deeds is one dated 1452 (Clark, vol. ii., p. 169), a grant of land in Coyty by Edmund Stradling; a note to the deed states that Edmund was son of Sir Edmund, of Winter bourne Dauntesey, son of Sir John Stradling and Joan Dauntesey. The seal attached to the deed quarters 1 and 4 paly of six, a chevron (Stradling), 2 and 3, three bars undy for Dauntesey...The Stradlings seem to have used two coats — the above, but more commonly paly of six on a bend three cinquefoils."

However, Edmund's granddaughter, Anne Stradling/Danvers has the more common Stradling arms displayed on her monumental brass (https://archive.org/details/memorialsofdanve00macn/page/n336/mode/1up). I am no expert on heraldry though, so I am not sure why the arms would be differenced in this case, or in that of Sir Walter's mother. It'd be great to find a clear trail through the family arms, but the only child of Sir Edward Stradling to be consistently indicated as his issue was Sir Henry, thus limiting our potential sample scope.

Thank you all, especially Andrew Z, for this interesting information. I like mystery myself and thought that the coat of arms attached to Maurice Dennis' first wife could have been a Berkerolles coat of arms? I have seen that book, and it was hard to see the illustration. I am no expert, either, but Gwenllian Berkerolles was the wife of Sir Edward Stradling's grandfather, another Edward Stradling (about 1319-1394?). It's possible a mistake was made and crescents should have been drawn instead of roses.

In addition, I read Peter Bartrum's book before it was taken off line (fortunately, it is at our county library and I will read it again when I get back from vacation). In the book, I recall seeing that "Catherine" or Caterine Stradling (ca 1360- ?), Sir Edward's aunt and a daughter of Gwenllian, was the "Catherine" Stradling who married Watkin Wynston.

I understand that Maurice Dennis was Sir Edward Stradling's ward from about age 12 until he reached majority in 1431, but in my research about marriage of wards or minors in Medieval England, couldn't Maurice refuse to marry an "illegitimate" daughter of his guardian, if she was "below" his social standing and had no inheritance? I believe he had that right. Also, wasn't Maurice a ward of the Crown when his father Gilbert Dennis died in 1422, which would have retained marriage rights for Maurice? Maybe Joanne or Katherine Stradling, legitimate or not, had assets not recorded.

Regards, everyone, and thank you again

On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 9:56:42 AM UTC-4, HWynn wrote:
> Thank you all, especially Andrew Z, for this interesting information. I like mystery myself and thought that the coat of arms attached to Maurice Dennis' first wife could have been a Berkerolles coat of arms? I have seen that book, and it was hard to see the illustration. I am no expert, either, but Gwenllian Berkerolles was the wife of Sir Edward Stradling's grandfather, another Edward Stradling (about 1319-1394?). It's possible a mistake was made and crescents should have been drawn instead of roses.
>
> In addition, I read Peter Bartrum's book before it was taken off line (fortunately, it is at our county library and I will read it again when I get back from vacation). In the book, I recall seeing that "Catherine" or Caterine Stradling (ca 1360- ?), Sir Edward's aunt and a daughter of Gwenllian, was the "Catherine" Stradling who married Watkin Wynston.
>
> I understand that Maurice Dennis was Sir Edward Stradling's ward from about age 12 until he reached majority in 1431, but in my research about marriage of wards or minors in Medieval England, couldn't Maurice refuse to marry an "illegitimate" daughter of his guardian, if she was "below" his social standing and had no inheritance? I believe he had that right. Also, wasn't Maurice a ward of the Crown when his father Gilbert Dennis died in 1422, which would have retained marriage rights for Maurice? Maybe Joanne or Katherine Stradling, legitimate or not, had assets not recorded.
>
> Regards, everyone, and thank you again

On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 9:56:42 AM UTC-4, HWynn wrote:
> Thank you all, especially Andrew Z, for this interesting information. I like mystery myself and thought that the coat of arms attached to Maurice Dennis' first wife could have been a Berkerolles coat of arms? I have seen that book, and it was hard to see the illustration. I am no expert, either, but Gwenllian Berkerolles was the wife of Sir Edward Stradling's grandfather, another Edward Stradling (about 1319-1394?). It's possible a mistake was made and crescents should have been drawn instead of roses.
>
> In addition, I read Peter Bartrum's book before it was taken off line (fortunately, it is at our county library and I will read it again when I get back from vacation). In the book, I recall seeing that "Catherine" or Caterine Stradling (ca 1360- ?), Sir Edward's aunt and a daughter of Gwenllian, was the "Catherine" Stradling who married Watkin Wynston.
>
> I understand that Maurice Dennis was Sir Edward Stradling's ward from about age 12 until he reached majority in 1431, but in my research about marriage of wards or minors in Medieval England, couldn't Maurice refuse to marry an "illegitimate" daughter of his guardian, if she was "below" his social standing and had no inheritance? I believe he had that right. Also, wasn't Maurice a ward of the Crown when his father Gilbert Dennis died in 1422, which would have retained marriage rights for Maurice? Maybe Joanne or Katherine Stradling, legitimate or not, had assets not recorded.
>
> Regards, everyone, and thank you again

Thank you HWynn, I really appreciate you saying that! The arms in the Dennis pedigree and on Sir Walter's monumental brass definitely don't add any certainty to the matter. I should also add that Sir Walter opted to replace the Ferre arms in his father's 4th quarter with those of his potential mother, but his son didn't retain either of those in his own arms.

Thank you for your response, that's an excellent observation about the Berkerolles arms! Of all the Stradling quarterings found in Sir Thomas Stradling's arms, that's the closest one (three crescents between a chevron), but I am not sure under what circumstances these arms could potentially pass to Sir Walter's mother. From History of Wales (pg. xliii) "Sir Edward Stradling Knt his son succeeded him who because he was sole heir general to the said Barbe did quarter S Barbe's arms with his To whom also in the thirteenth year of of King Henry the Fourth fell the whole inheritance of the Berkerolles and the right of the fourth part of Turbervile's inheritance Lord of Coyty aforesaid the which for lack of issue male of the said Berkerolles remainned to Gamage and to his heirs male by the especial entail aforesaid The which Sir Edward did quarter not only the said Berkerolles arms with his but also Turberviles and lestynes arms of whom the Turberviles had in marriage one of the inheritors as is before said because the said Sir Edward was one of the four heirs general to Sir Richard Turbervile to wit son to Sir William Stradling son to Gwenllian sister and heir to the said Laurence Berkerolles and daughter to Catharine eldest sister and one of the four heirs general to the aforesaid Sir Richard Turbervile" (https://books.google.ca/books/about/The_History_of_Wales.html?id=83M_AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Also, through the Memorials of the Danvers Family book, we can identify most of the inherited arms that are found in the coat of arms of Sir Thomas Stradling.

1. Stradling 2. Hawey 3. Strongbow 4. Gernon or Garnon 5. Not identified 6. Justyn 7. Turberville 8. Berkerolles
https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/95669d86-7fe8-3762-a422-f55d267e97ce/Thomas-d1480-and-Elizabeth-d1533-Stradlinge/?field0=string&value0=stradling&field1=with_images&value1=1&index=3

I would also like to share the Stradling family pedigree from the Golden Grove Book of Pedigrees. Although this may not be a reliable source and does not provide details on all the issue of the earlier generations, it can be a useful starting point for an overview of later generations: https://drive..google.com/drive/folders/1J67VIfhPiH1FyuaIb3CgxuC_w8Q3SXPf

Very interesting! If Catherine Stradling (wife of Watkin Wynston) was a daughter of Sir Edward Stradling (the grandfather of Sir Edward who married Jane Beaufort) and Gwenllian, that could explain why there was a Catherine Stradling in the Wynston pedigree. When you have a chance, please let us know what else Peter Bartrum's book says in regard to this discussion and in the meantime, enjoy your vacation!

Since you know more than me about the marriage of wards in medieval England, all I can add is that you raise some very good questions that should be explored further. Sir Edward Stradling was certainly very mindful of building his family's influence and wealth: he acquired the wardship of Maurice Denys after his Sir Gilbert's death, Maurice's mother, Margaret Russell, was married to Sir Edward's nephew (thus denying Maurice some of the Russell estates) and her widowed step mother, Joan Dauntsey, was married to Sir Edward's brother. I am sure he would have tried to benefit from Maurice's marriage as well, so it'd be interesting to determine if Maurice had the right to refuse unsuitable brides.

Andew Z
I found the Peter Bartrum's genealogy on the Stradlings and Wynstons in Geni.com. You can register for geni.com for free, then look for "Peter Bartrum Welsh Genealogy geni" on your search engine, or look on geni.com. There will be a long list of topics from his book. Go to Genealogies 1400-1500 (bottom of the page) and look for "Stradling". It's under Stradling1. Bartrum wrote that "11 Catrin Stradling" = Watkin ap John Wynston 1 (11 meaning 11th generation, and 1 meaning, he's under Wynston, page 1). Anyway, Catrin is actually the daughter of Sir Edward Stradling and Gwenllian Berkerolles, and is our Sir Edward's aunt, not daughter.
I didn't have to go to our county library after all, although his books are there.
Interestingly, if one goes to our Sir Edward's great-grandson, Sir Edward- he had 22 children with 4 women. One was his Wife, and 3 were mistresses, whose names are recorded. So Cardinal Beaufort probably has a tremendous number of descendants.

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 6:37:38 AM UTC-4, Andrew Z wrote:
> Any insight on identifying these arms (chevron between three roses) would be welcome.
>
> I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter

Dear group,

I previously searched (without any success) the Dictionary of British Arms for Stradling arms variations; I recently looked up in the same book a chevron between three roses and those arms from the Olveston Denys monumental brass are included under this heading, but are identified as Russell.
Pg. 342 https://library.oapen.org/viewer/web/viewer.html?file=/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/31215/634734.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Russell holders of these arms are found on pg. 343, with the source for the arms of Thomas Russell being Thomas Jenyns's Book, 1410, transcr. O.Barron, [incorporates Jenyns's Ordinary & Jenyns's Roll, collated with BL Add MS 40851] (pg. xxxix)

The source for the information about the Olveston monumental brass is cited as: https://archive.org/details/b29828302/page/154/mode/1up, which in turn cites this book: https://archive.org/details/brassesofglouces00davi/page/106/mode/1up

Neither of these books identify the arms as Russell, so I am not sure how the statement on pg. 342 could be corroborated, but I would imagine it to be credible since the Dictionary of British Arms was prepared on the basis of cards from the College of Arms and edited by heralds.

When I first started looking into the Sir Walter Dennis' mother parentage, I carefully read the previous discussions about its uncertainty and lack of contemporary evidence, but still considered it possible, especially since it seemed to me that the main source attributing illegitimate children to Sir Edward Stradling (husband of Jane Beaufort) was G.T. Clark, whose work I found to be unreliable on this topic. However, after reviewing the heraldic evidence found in the Dennis pedigree, I don't believe that it supports Johanne being a daughter of Sir Edward Stradling (in spite of the caption identifying her as Stradlyng). Sir Walter Dennis died in 1505, with the monumental brass being dated around the same time. I would assume that whoever has commissioned the monumental brass and the pedigree (circa 1520) would not be mistaken about Sir Walter's mother's arms (especially since they are displayed so prominently), which are not those of Sir Edward Stradling.

All the best!

Andrew

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 4:37:07 PM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 6:37:38 AM UTC-4, Andrew Z wrote:
> > Any insight on identifying these arms (chevron between three roses) would be welcome.
> >
> > I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter
> Dear group,
>
> I previously searched (without any success) the Dictionary of British Arms for Stradling arms variations; I recently looked up in the same book a chevron between three roses and those arms from the Olveston Denys monumental brass are included under this heading, but are identified as Russell.
> Pg. 342 https://library.oapen.org/viewer/web/viewer.html?file=/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/31215/634734.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
>
> Russell holders of these arms are found on pg. 343, with the source for the arms of Thomas Russell being Thomas Jenyns's Book, 1410, transcr. O.Barron, [incorporates Jenyns's Ordinary & Jenyns's Roll, collated with BL Add MS 40851] (pg. xxxix)
>
> The source for the information about the Olveston monumental brass is cited as: https://archive.org/details/b29828302/page/154/mode/1up, which in turn cites this book: https://archive.org/details/brassesofglouces00davi/page/106/mode/1up
>
> Neither of these books identify the arms as Russell, so I am not sure how the statement on pg. 342 could be corroborated, but I would imagine it to be credible since the Dictionary of British Arms was prepared on the basis of cards from the College of Arms and edited by heralds.
>
> When I first started looking into the Sir Walter Dennis' mother parentage, I carefully read the previous discussions about its uncertainty and lack of contemporary evidence, but still considered it possible, especially since it seemed to me that the main source attributing illegitimate children to Sir Edward Stradling (husband of Jane Beaufort) was G.T. Clark, whose work I found to be unreliable on this topic. However, after reviewing the heraldic evidence found in the Dennis pedigree, I don't believe that it supports Johanne being a daughter of Sir Edward Stradling (in spite of the caption identifying her as Stradlyng). Sir Walter Dennis died in 1505, with the monumental brass being dated around the same time. I would assume that whoever has commissioned the monumental brass and the pedigree (circa 1520) would not be mistaken about Sir Walter's mother's arms (especially since they are displayed so prominently), which are not those of Sir Edward Stradling.
>
> All the best!
>
> Andrew